[VF5] Impressions for Chikahiro and the other two people who care! [Archive]

nonsense

02-27-2007, 07:23 AM

So I've been playing around with the PS3 port of Virtua Fighter V, having been unable to play it in arcades. VF: Final Tuned didn't make it here, so my baseline for comparison is VF4: Evolution. Random observations follow:

Quest mode and Jeff's a MONSTER!

The meat of the game is once again a Quest mode wherein you, the player, lead a character through a number of arcades populated by other players of various skill levels, earn gold and shiny items with which to customize your toon, and compete in tournaments.

Unlike Evo, all the arcades are unlocked from day one... so if you don't want to waste your time fighting 10th kyu wimps, you don't have to. Go straight to the top-end arcades and get your ass handed to you if you like! Tournaments periodically become available, and there are two types. Local tournaments hosted by arcades, which generally offer cash or items to the winner and appear randomly (you'll get a warning); and Official Tournaments hosted in Event Square, which seem to become available after x matches played. I've won two, and haven't gotten anything from them. Not sure what their purpose is. Item matches still appear randomly, and you can win gold, items or orbs (collect a full set and win something or other!). You no longer lose orbs, and you don't need to randomly stumble across an enemy with a colour you don't have, so the collection seems a bit easier.

AI got panned in the IGN (and Gamespot?) review, and I think it's a case of reviewer-didn't-do-his-job. The normal difficulty AI *is* laughably bad, but if you switch up to Hard, it's pretty well identical to Evo's hard difficulty (at least so far).

Customizability is groovy once more, if you like to play dressup (and I do!). There are now four base costumes instead of just the two of previous iterations. The first two are available from day one, and the remaining two have to be unlocked (one at 1st dan, the second I'm not yet sure about - I think it's an orb collection prize).

Graphically, the game is spectacular.. Textures are detailed (right down to calloused knuckles), and the sense of scale has improved. Jeff and Wolf are absolutely humongous by comparison to everybody else. There's a bunch of new animations around, mostly for flavour (Lau is more kung-fu villain than ever, right down to a bunch of spinny kicks done with his hands clasped behind his back!). Everything feels smoother and better animated.

Tutorial mode sucks (by comparison)

The command tutorial (wherein attacks are displayed on the screen, and they cycle as you complete them) is still in. The free training is still in, but less robust. I don't think there's any way for it to display guaranteed combos from x launcher like VF4:Evo used to, which is a shame. The general gameplay tutorial (this is how you evade; this is how you escape throws, etc.) is missing entirely, as are the challenge trials. Not a big deal for me, but this could be bad for new players... VF is not exactly casual-friendly.

New Mechanics

The engine has undergone a few changes from Evo, which are as follows:

1) Defensive Move/ Offensive Move.

Defensive Move is the standard Evade from VF4, with Evade Attacks now using P+K instead of P+K+G.

Offensive move is an attacking dodge. Evade and hit P+K+G and you'll zoom forward. It's not hard-coded to evade linear attacks like a standard evade, it seems, but instead does so by hit box... which means it's a bit risky. In practice, it only avoids attacks launched in the latter stages of the evade animation, so it's best used when you're at an advantage. What's nice about the OM is that it can get you behind or to the side of an attacking opponent. A P and K are available from OM; the P is a low-risk mid, the K is a high-risk mid with the upside of a back or side crumple if the OM gets you behind the opponent.

2) Throws

Throws take more frames than before (I'm hearing 12, as opposed to 8), but the upside is they're no longer automatically beaten by attacks in non-guaranteed situations. They're still beaten flat out by fast attacks, but slower punishers can "clash" with the throw, which results in nobody taking damage and advantage being reset. There are some attacks that will never clash, which can still be used to punish throw attempts (jumping attacks and two-limbed attacks, I *think*).

So, in practical terms, let's say we're playing Jeff. Somebody blocks my 66PP, and I'm expecting to be thrown from disadvantage. If I do something fast (like a jab), I'll beat the throw. If I do something slow (like a 33P), it'll clash and we'll be back at square one. If I do something slow and jumping (like a 6k, which I *think* is considered a jumping attack for the purpose of clashes), I'll beat the throw in style.

I'm not sure what the increase in throw frames means for guaranteed throw situations... Without frame data, I can't tell if all recoveries were increased and the status quo has been maintained, or if there are fewer guaranteed throws in general.

Also, in guaranteed situations, you now have fewer frames to enter throw escapes than non-guaranteed. I doubt this is an issue unless you're the type who can reliably buffer three or four escapes.

New Characters

Eileen (monkey kung fu 14-year old annoying chick) plays sort of like Talim from Soul Calibur. She can cancel most any string into a set of evasive maneuvers (forward leap, backward leap, upward leap, really low splits), from which she has pressure attacks and punishers. Lots of pokes, lots of evades, really bloody annoying to fight against.

El Blaze (masked Mexican luchador) is Wolf light. He's got a bunch of throws spanning pretty well all directions (including one low throw), and they do decentish damage. More strikes than Wolf, and quite a few of them seem to be circular. Can cancel numerous strings into a run, from which he has a few pressure options, but I don't think there's a decent mid in there, so any mixups can just be crouch-guarded). Seems versatile enough, and fun.

More specific notes as they become available. Unfortunately, since my PS2 stick doesn't work (*sigh*), I'm playing on a gamepad right now, which means several characters are pretty much unplayable on hard difficulty (Akira, et al).

nonsense

02-27-2007, 08:03 AM

Some character changes in brief, because a) I haven't had time to really mess around, and b) the gamepad limits my messing around to characters with less demanding inputs.

Jeffry

Mostly improved.

64P has changed from a high semi-circular back-turning punch to a mid semi-circular side-turning punch. Unfortunately, it also got slower and lost a LOT of range (it's very point blank now). The original 64P is still available through the 4KP sequence.

66PP is no longer throw counterable on guard, which gives him another sorely needed safe, quick attack.

Threat stance now has a straight throw (as opposed to just a hit throw that works only on guard), so you now have a mixup between the crumple-on-counter mid kick or the throw. Nice.

There's a new throw ending in the 4 direction (HCB P+G), and it's BIG. This is wonderful, since 4P+G is techable and does little damage... so Jeff now has three dangerous throw directions (4, 6, 3), and still has the 1P+G whip-you-into-a-wall, and the 2P+G (and, of course, the basic throw). Big improvement.

I'm not sure if Jeff has any guaranteed low throws off counterhits like he used to (apart from the stomach crumple off 6P+K). I'll have to test that.

Chikahiro

02-27-2007, 10:37 AM

From what I've seen they've softened up Sarah's look, which I'm not entirely sure I like, and may've tried tarting her up a bit ("OMGGSTRING"), which I really don't like. Gah! I don't want a Nina Williams/DOA-alike! Her attitude was more than enough...

I've been hearing good things, and some of the "bad things" such as "its not a big enough change" is a good thing too, since I don't expect VF to make radical changes like Tekken or SC. I like how Sega does more Capcom style refinement rather than overhauling the game/characters/etc...

nonsense

02-27-2007, 10:45 AM

Jacky

Very few changes overall, it seems.

1PK no longer does a low backfist and a sweep; the K portion has been changed to a high-hitting kick (identical to 3K+G). Useless outside of combos, but the full string does seem to be a guaranteed combo off his WC 3P (which doesn't launch the same way it used to). Jacky's low game is now practically non-existent; all of his good low options seem to come from back-turned stance. (Edit: Never mind me. Turns out 1PK is a natural combo if 1P counterhits. That's awesome.)

9k, a new jumping double kick. First hit comes out pretty fast, hits mid, and the second is guaranteed if the first hits. Like most attacks of its ilk, it's crazy unsafe if blocked. Good whiff punisher if you don't have the time for a P+K or 4P+G, and it stuffs low attacks very well.

The timing on the 3P+K, P+G hit throw seems to have been relaxed (and the animation's cooler), making it a pretty good option.

6k is slow and very, very unsafe where previously it was only somewhat risky. I'm not sure if it'll combo into a PPK like before.

P4K is his punch - sidekick combo from VF4, that previously was available only from open stance. So nice to have it controllable - it's pretty well the best poke option you have.

Conclusion: Same old Jacky. Poke, whore out mids and occasionally one of your low-damage throws, and dash around like mad to draw whiffs. He's still very effective, and easy to use well.

Also, that spandex getup he's had since VF1? Mercifully gone.

nonsense

02-27-2007, 10:46 AM

From what I've seen they've softened up Sarah's look, which I'm not entirely sure I like, and may've tried tarting her up a bit ("OMGGSTRING"), which I really don't like. Gah! I don't want a Nina Williams/DOA-alike! Her attitude was more than enough...

Apparently she's a good guy now, or something. I don't really follow the lore.

Somebody quite accurately summarized VF's approach to character backgrounds as "Hi, my name is Akira. I've come to punch you in the face."

Edit: I'm gonna start testing Sarah next. I've gone through her movelist, and it's pretty different.. lots of new Flamingo options, and TONS of cancels to get into the stance. I heard her launchers took a hit (specifically 2P+KK launches lower than it used to; 33K got even more counterable), and she's worse at bulldogging and power, but better at finesse.

Fenrir

02-27-2007, 11:42 AM

I picked this up last week. It's my first VF game, actually, the series always flying under my radar in the past. I'm not a big fighting game junkie, but I loved SF back in the day and owned the two PS2 Soul Calibur entries, so I've had a bit of initiation.

I can't compare this incarnation to previous ones, obviously, but compared to other fighting games VF5 comes out significantly ahead of any others I've played. This game is bloody cerebral- timing needs to be exact, and you actually need to step back and plan your attacks instead of just running in like an idiot.

And the character variety is immense- almost all characters feel like a completely new experience.

I always tend to do well with the ladies in fighting games, since they're often the faster characters. I started off with Eileen, but I do significantly better as Vanessa- I heard she was harder to use, but I'm clearing house with her. She does have a couple of moves that the AI seems completely unable to figure out, so I avoid using them against the computer, but even with that handicap I can still do better with her than most others.

I wish I was better with El Blaze, though. He's cheesy as all hell, but for some inexplicable reason I find him really cool. Part of it is that I can actually see the freakin veins under his skin when it zooms in for the victory pose, even on my crappy SD 19 inch tube. His skin is damn near photo-perfect. I find it strange that one of my favorite parts of the game is ogling a man's naked torso, but hey.

All of the character models are fantastic, though- Lau's sickly looking eyes, his stretched out, leathery skin, his liver spots- little details like that. And the cloth physics in this game are the best I've ever seen- cloth actually has WEIGHT here, and it hangs naturally. Best example of this is Lei Fei's A outfit, a typical Shaolin monk getup with big sleeves. It looks great in motion.

I wish I had an HDTV so I could see it in its full glory, though.

nonsense

02-27-2007, 11:55 AM

I picked this up last week. It's my first VF game, actually, the series always flying under my radar in the past. I'm not a big fighting game junkie, but I loved SF back in the day and owned the two PS2 Soul Calibur entries, so I've had a bit of initiation.

I can't compare this incarnation to previous ones, obviously, but compared to other fighting games VF5 comes out significantly ahead of any others I've played. This game is bloody cerebral- timing needs to be exact, and you actually need to step back and plan your attacks instead of just running in like an idiot.

ONE OF US! :D

Welcome. The VF series is simply the best set of fighting games around... but as you're learning, there's a LOT to it. Do you have the strategy guide, by any chance? I picked it up on a lark, because some of the people on the virtuafighter forums worked on it (and I was hoping for frame data)... it's actually pretty good at teaching the basics of the game, like how to escape throws and so forth.

And the character variety is immense- almost all characters feel like a completely new experience.

They pretty much are. Used to be, they'd even have ratings (Beginner/Advanced etc.) in arcade mode to let the player know how difficult that character was to learn. Dunno if that's still the case. :)

All of the character models are fantastic, though- Lau's sickly looking eyes, his stretched out, leathery skin, his liver spots- little details like that. And the cloth physics in this game are the best I've ever seen- cloth actually has WEIGHT here, and it hangs naturally. Best example of this is Lei Fei's A outfit, a typical Shaolin monk getup with big sleeves. It looks great in motion.

I wish I had an HDTV so I could see it in its full glory, though.

I'm actually quite impressed by some of the backgrounds, as well. Especially that Northern Lights night stage... even if I get a bit distracted by the pretty. :D

On that note, watch the cloth physics on Aoi's getups as well. Incredible.

Chikahiro

02-27-2007, 02:08 PM

Fenrir - www.virtuafighter.com - VF site (obviously)

And picking up a copy of Virtua Fighter 4/Virtua Fighter 4:Evo might be a better purchase than the strategy guide, as it has an awesome tutorial mode that really teaches you the game (lessons, practice, explantions, a bloody dictionary of terms, etc).

nonsense

02-27-2007, 04:23 PM

Sarah

Wow... Um. Changes.

On the bright side, a lot of her bread-and-butter combos still work. On the less-than-bright-side, her launchers are crazy unsafe now. 33k and 2p+k,k are both elbow counterable on block. I think the latter always was, but 33k used to be punch counterable only. So don't miss.

Lots of new flamingo cancels, and some reaaaally nice additions to the stance. Most notably, FL 3k crumples on CH. I haven't found a good combo to take advantage of that yet, but I'm sure there's one out there.

Very nice addition in 66K+G, K.. High kick that staggers, and a circular mid followup that'll combo off the first hit. 6K+G,K hits mid first (kind of a hopping axe kick thingy), and is a bit slower but also good.

Also good is PP2K, a punch string ending in a standing low sweep that comes out pretty fast. It's very punishable, but PP2KK will get you a fakeout axe kick that hits mid, so there's a simple mixup right there.

Also, the leather dress is.. um...

Chikahiro

02-27-2007, 05:30 PM

Also, the leather dress is.. um...
Doesn't seem quite right, does it?

I like my female fighters more like the old Sarah's, Vanessa (KOF), King (with the non-explodo shirt), Vice, Mature, etc. Subtle is good :)

nonsense

02-28-2007, 08:38 AM

Doesn't seem quite right, does it?

I like my female fighters more like the old Sarah's, Vanessa (KOF), King (with the non-explodo shirt), Vice, Mature, etc. Subtle is good :)

You should see Neo-Vanessa. All the combat fatigue goodness of the original, with shirt hanging wide open to reveal lacy bra!

I have to say, this is not an aesthetic move I expected to see from Virtua Fighter. I'm beginning to worry that one of Aoi's unlockable costumes is gonna be a playboy bunny suit or something.

Also, Goh got a SPOD. Huh.

Tim Kirk

02-28-2007, 09:40 AM

So I take it this game doesn't have a character creator (unlike some of the other Recent Fighters..?)

nonsense

02-28-2007, 09:54 AM

So I take it this game doesn't have a character creator (unlike some of the other Recent Fighters..?)

Nope.

What it does have is a lot of customization.. if you've played Tekken V, the treatment of items from that game is cribbed from VF4. Essentially, you have the basic fighter models, and their various base costumes, and then get a bunch of items you can apply to change the way they look (different hairstyles, etc.).

It's a slightly different niche than Tekken and Soul Calibur and the like; it's not really as pick-up-and-play accessible*, which is part of why I bemoan the loss of the excellent tutorial features from previous versions. It's more oriented towards competitive play; it's deeper and better balanced than pretty much any other fighter around. Somewhat lacks in frills, though. :)

If you have any interest in trying it out, you might pick up VF4:Evolution as Chikahiro suggested above.. these days, you can probably get it for $15-20, and it's much better at teaching players the basics.

* Edit: Though I'd say, tutorial aside, V is friendlier to new players than the other versions.

Chikahiro

02-28-2007, 10:34 AM

You should see Neo-Vanessa. All the combat fatigue goodness of the original, with shirt hanging wide open to reveal lacy bra!

I have to say, this is not an aesthetic move I expected to see from Virtua Fighter. I'm beginning to worry that one of Aoi's unlockable costumes is gonna be a playboy bunny suit or something.

Also, Goh got a SPOD. Huh.

Gah... leave something to my imagination! I haven't used it in so long... besides, red-headed-ness is far hotter than fanboy cleavage :)

Goh? With a SPOD? I feel afraid, considering the only other guy on this island that I know who plays VF uses Goh >_<

edit: Oh, wait... you're probably talking about VF Vanessa, not KOF Neo Wave Vanessa... nevermind.

Stantz

02-28-2007, 10:38 AM

Enough with the scrub characters! How do Aoi and Shun Di play?

nonsense

02-28-2007, 10:52 AM

Enough with the scrub characters! How do Aoi and Shun Di play?

Ask me when my stick arrives. :D

Aoi's changed a bit.. her main elbow poke (6P+K,P) starts high now, which is unfortunate, but the others are unchanged. Her K,K axe kick is back, which made me very, very happy. She has more mobility options; there's now a backwards twirl sort of similar to the YY stance dodge, and she's got a few new back-turned toys (as well as a few new cancels to get there). I played a bit, but I find Aoi frustrating without a stick. I find 46 and 43-type movements a little unreliable on a pad, especially out of a crouch dash, and ... well, that's a big chunk of her offense. She seems to have gotten a few new strikes and juggles, so it may be that she won't need to rely so much on counterhits to combo. YY is still a thing of beauty. I'll test a bit and see what else I find.

Shun's got a new stance, but I never really played him to begin with, so I'm not sure what it adds. Edit: Apparently, he's considered to be at the top of the heap in Japan right now, though, so obviously something good happened. o.O

Edit: Also, yeah, Sarah and Jacky are a bit scrubby (Sarah less so now that 33k's been nerfed), but Jeffry? C'mon, now. Ain't nobody been at the bottom of the heap for as long as my fisherman!

nonsense

02-28-2007, 11:02 AM

Goh? With a SPOD? I feel afraid, considering the only other guy on this island that I know who plays VF uses Goh >_<

It's the same motion and concept, but the last bit (4P or 6P) is a throw, and the throw direction chosen changes the actual throw direction. So it's a SPOD with ring control. The opener seems a bit quicker than Akira's stun palm, but I haven't really played around with it much.

edit: Oh, wait... you're probably talking about VF Vanessa, not KOF Neo Wave Vanessa... nevermind.

I was, yeah. :)

Chikahiro

02-28-2007, 11:17 AM

It's the same motion and concept, but the last bit (4P or 6P) is a throw, and the throw direction chosen changes the actual throw direction. So it's a SPOD with ring control.

The opener seems a bit quicker than Akira's stun palm, but I haven't really played around with it much.

*whimpers*

Scary stuff.

And as a long time Sarah user (since VF1), I object to her being called "scrubby," so there :P

nonsense

02-28-2007, 11:39 AM

*whimpers*

Scary stuff.

And as a long time Sarah user (since VF1), I object to her being called "scrubby," so there :P

:D

Hey, I used to play Lau back in the day. I really don't have the moral high ground here.

Having had a little more time to play around, though, it's my opinion that Sarah's gotten more interesting than ever. She feels more fluid, especially in switching between regular stance and Flamingo... and half her arsenal G-cancels into FL, it seems, including the sped up 4K+G slam. There's also a lightning fast new low out of FL (1k), that doesn't have a whole lot of range, but crumples on counter, gives a big frame advantage on hit, and is totally safe (!).

Her throw damage has been taken down a peg or two, but several of her throws still guarantee a small down attack (one I'm particularly liking is 6P+G, which does tiny damage + guaranteed kick-in-the-face after the knockdown, and can be changed by inputting 6P+G8; same base throw damage, opponent left standing side-turned, with Sarah at a small frame advantage).

Chikahiro

02-28-2007, 12:21 PM

You might not have high moral ground, but you're far more VF literate than I! :)

I tend to play a poking pressure game more than anything else - not much for big combos and such. I do like to sneak in throws periodically- sometimes as a counter, more often out of the blue or following P or PP, trying to catch my opponent who's mentally awaiting the rest of the PPPK. I have noticed, however, that with my friend we tend to notice and go for throw opportunities at the same time (happens a bit in 3rd Strike too).

Must be like Go - a good move for me is a good move for you.

(Lau's scrubby? Egad - the things I don't know...)

nonsense

02-28-2007, 12:39 PM

You might not have high moral ground, but you're far more VF literate than I! :)

Let's just say I'm glad VF doesn't have a /played command like WoW does.

(Lau's scrubby? Egad - the things I don't know...)

Hasn't been for a long time, but olden Lau could basically win matches just by backdashing, hitting the 3p+k -> ppp2k combo over and over and over... He always had more depth than that, of course, but having a really good launcher into easy combo options will go far.

'Course, they're all scrubs compared to Aoi. :D

Perdidas

02-28-2007, 04:22 PM

Perdidas

02-28-2007, 04:28 PM

Also, any opinions as to what extent the new 2p mechanics change the basic poke/counterpoke strategies?

Stantz

02-28-2007, 05:13 PM

'Course, they're all scrubs compared to Aoi. :DTo be honest, my entire strategy with her pressure the other guy into attacking, do some kind of quick dodge, and dump some dead simple chain into them. I'm not an expert by any means.

Fenrir

02-28-2007, 10:04 PM

I had a moment tonight in quest mode with Vanessa.

Other fighting games, you're always looking to line up the massive combo, and all intermittent moves feel like just filler. I finally dropped that mindset and had a Matrix-like moment against a 10th Dan Lei Fei, who had previously wiped the floor with me. I was in the freakin' zone. Little pokes here and there, I actually used Defensive Move, throws, mixing up low and high attacks, and I totally steamrolled him. Stuff just clicked.

Felt good. I love this game.

Chikahiro

02-28-2007, 10:22 PM

nonsense

03-01-2007, 06:38 AM

Keep the impressions coming, nonsenseconscience. VF hasn't had a local arcade release since VF2; so the local "scene" ends up being (unfortunately console-based) gatherings of people that me and Noodalls from the VFDC forums can swipe from the local Tekken community.

Arcades hereabouts are pretty much dead as well.

Any opinions on Wolf (as he's my main)?

I'm a terrible Wolf player - he never really clicked for me, so take this with a grain of salt. Initial impression: not really sure. I wasn't terribly impressed, but what do I know? :)

43P has changed its animation... seems a bit faster than before, is safe. Not sure about the hit properties. Can't be charged into a guard stagger any more, but still crumples on hit. Wolf now has a very difficult-to-execute HCF P+G hit throw after the crumple.

A few new hit strings, most of which are high. Not terribly impressive. 6PP now has a 6P,P+K variant that hits high and knocks down (semicircular). It's new! It's not a mixup! It's just about pointless! Who finishes the 6pp string anyway? 6p still crumples if it hits a staggering opponent, but considering the change to 43P, I don't know how useful that'll be.

New stance, 6P+K+G, that runs forward and turns into a throw(or rather, a position reversal that puts Wolf behind the victim)-mid mixup. Hella slow, big windup, nothing cancels into it. Might have some evasive properties. Doesn't seem useful at first impression.

Two new High semi-circular chops (HCF P+K and HCB P+K) that are both hit throws, and are both dodged in different directions... that could be handy, I suppose, but why not just throw evaders?

Also, a nice new uppercut.. looks sorta like a Yoho. 33P+K. Flops on hit, and probably can combo into 4K+G,K.

Also, any opinions as to what extent the new 2p mechanics change the basic poke/counterpoke strategies?

I haven't noticed the slightest difference in practice, tbh. It seems like low punches can be backdashed more reliably, but I may just be looking for changes.

nonsense

03-01-2007, 06:54 AM

Actually, you take that mentality to other fighters, and you'll do well. Poking seems like filler to people don't understand what its used for. Big combos wow the crowd, but its everything else that wins you the match :)

Also, VF is defensively biased. In some other games (notably Soul Calibur, though I think Tekken is the same way), having your attacks blocked still gives you frame advantage on the whole (with some exceptions). In VF, that's not the case; if you're successfully defended, odds are pretty good you're at a disadvantage (with some rare exceptions that normally have big drawbacks, like attacks with poor range or slow startup).

Combo starters are almost universally punishable, so pokes, setups and defense are much more valuable most of the time than trying to nail the big launcher.

Also:

Brad

Big, big improvements.

Low punch parry/punisher from ducking. A new LONG duck accessible by hitting 6 out of a ducking stance (so, frex PP66) that's a bit lower, covers a lot of space, and has some nice attacks.

The attacks from slip left and right haven't changed or been added to, but there's a new circular dodge out of slipping that's accessed by following the slip direction (so, PP22 or PP88). It's fast, has great evasion, and turns into a mixup between some fast mids and a really nice low.

New push kick, 4k, that has better range than k and can be faked into a moving jab/kick string (mid/low mixup, safe). Slips are available after the kick as well, but it's yet another attack that changes foot position on completion, so if you want to slip left or right*, remember to reverse the command.

Also, an absolutely fantastic 8P+K high punch. It's evasive, semicircular, safe on block, crumples on any hit. Range is kinda iffy, but since it's a point blank evader...

Also, for MA geeks, his animations have also been tweaked to make him look a bit more authentically Muay Thai (side kick is actually a swing kick now, and his stance and block animation are actually correct).

I think he may be my new main. Muay Thai + Pimp + Weaknesses Fixed = Awesome.

Edit: Also, my new Hori arcade stick's in town! Should be able to get it tonight.

Count_Zero

03-01-2007, 07:58 AM

nonsense

03-01-2007, 08:05 AM

I have an utterly stupid question - do the Virtua Fighter series have end game cut-scenes. My first VF game was Evo, and I could never beat Dural, so I don't know if there were any cut-scenes after that.

There never have been, and I'd be shocked if there are now.

Consider that this is a game where, for instance, Jeffry is motivated to enter the tournament because he's a fisherman going after a big shark that sank his boat, and he needs money to repair it.... for the fifth time now.

Story line? Not the strong point.

Chikahiro

03-01-2007, 10:28 AM

Also, VF is defensively biased. In some other games (notably Soul Calibur, though I think Tekken is the same way), having your attacks blocked still gives you frame advantage on the whole (with some exceptions). In VF, that's not the case; if you're successfully defended, odds are pretty good you're at a disadvantage (with some rare exceptions that normally have big drawbacks, like attacks with poor range or slow startup).

Combo starters are almost universally punishable, so pokes, setups and defense are much more valuable most of the time than trying to nail the big launcher.

What I was referring to was more of a mental thing, really, not a technical one. It might seem like a fugu puffing up or a cat hissing with fur on end, but its functional.

nonsense

03-01-2007, 10:46 AM

What I was referring to was more of a mental thing, really, not a technical one. It might seem like a fugu puffing up or a cat hissing with fur on end, but its functional.

Absolutely. It's very easy to let pokes slide, because they appear to do so little on their own. Hurray for death by a thousand cuts (see also: Pai, Eileen).

Chikahiro

03-01-2007, 12:09 PM

Absolutely. It's very easy to let pokes slide, because they appear to do so little on their own. Hurray for death by a thousand cuts (see also: Pai, Eileen).

Well, that and they can contribute to beating an opponent mentally, which is just as if not more important. One guy I used to play with in the SC area commented if you can break a guy mentally, the rest is easy.

Constant poking to frustrate offense, get 'em mad or to turtle. As the clock goes down, they're going to have to do something if they're behind, after all. Give'em enough rope to hang themselves with - their bad offensive choices give you good opportunity for counters, constant retreating for better ring position, etc. Make them second guess everything if possible :)

nonsense

03-01-2007, 12:53 PM

On Aoi:

Just spotted this gem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R4CO5SbI3o

Watch that first round. Obscene.

Wakare

03-01-2007, 01:39 PM

David J Prokopetz

03-01-2007, 01:47 PM

I really wish I could get into VF but Soul Calibur's air control and guard breaks has left me with a distaste for unstoppable juggle combos. It doesn't help that there are some very good players where I work so any mistakes on my part are severely punished.

(And before you poke fun at me, yes I recognize that VF is technically superior to SC, but I have more fun with SC.)For me it's the boring arenas. I know that DoA's play balance sucks, but I have loads of fun with the terrain. There's a certain satisfaction in kicking your opponent clear across the arena, only to have him crash headfirst into a tree with a bone-cracking "thud" in mid-fight. :D

Other highlights include the realistic splash effect when you toss your opponent into a stream, or the bright flash and explosion of sparks when you force him back onto an electric fence.

(Give me that plus destructible terrain, and you'd have my perfect fighting game.)

Chikahiro

03-01-2007, 01:47 PM

but I have more fun with SC
Well, that is the most important thing, isn't it? No teasing for that!

nonsense

03-01-2007, 01:49 PM

Absolutely. Everybody enjoys what they enjoy. I like SC as well, in fact. :)

Liking DOA, on the other hand, is all the proof I need that David has objectively vile taste! ;) :D

Edit:

Huh. Piker and so forth.

David J Prokopetz

03-01-2007, 01:54 PM

Liking DOA, on the other hand, is all the proof I need that David has objectively vile taste! ;) :DHeh.

Another part of it is that the only person I know who plays fighting games at my level (and thus, can give me a decent challenge in a versus match) is a lesbian, and she prefers DoA for the jiggle. :p

Stantz

03-01-2007, 03:56 PM

On Aoi:

Just spotted this gem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R4CO5SbI3o

Watch that first round. Obscene.That is exactly why I love AOI. No instant death combos. No cheap floating moves. Hell, she doesn't even hit that hard.

However, she can always be where the other guy doesn't want her to be. She can hit from directions the other guy didn't even know existed. If there's something they can do to stop her, she can punish them for it.

Perdidas

03-01-2007, 03:57 PM

Chikahiro

03-01-2007, 05:08 PM

Heh.

Another part of it is that the only person I know who plays fighting games at my level (and thus, can give me a decent challenge me in a versus match) a lesbian, and she prefers DoA for the jiggle. :p

heh - one of those famous mental leaps of "What would he/she look like if they were real." Jiggling aside, most of the DOA girls would be quite cute. I did go to a school with a young lady who had a build similar to Tina's, although she was bigger all around.

*ahem*

I think she was maybe 6'? A bit over? Anyhow, her height and body structure went a long way in certain aspects of proportions seem more normal, which is one of the reasons I like Tina. Those backbreakers on little Japanese and Chinese women (Ayane, Kasume, Lei Fang, etc)? Egad... get me the number of their chiropractor...

One reason I've always liked VF - the women (well, maybe not anymore) aren't going to make most SO's annoyed ("Are you playing that boobie game again?" - comment from my friend's wife concerning DOA). Female friendly/non-pervy is good - I always felt awkward playing Ivy in SC if I couldn't use her fully clothed outfits...

nonsense

03-02-2007, 07:43 AM

And if anyone's interested in some luchadore action, here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw--KgB8wU8&mode=related&search=) a clip featuring one of the new characters, El Blaze.

I've been getting so much mileage out of VF5 clips posted to Youtube. Can't wait until the game hits Oz (or, more importantly, until I have the cash to buy a next-gen console, a Hori which is compatible, and the game).

[edit: I love the animation of the throw at 2:52.]

I'm a bit surprised you guys don't have it in Oz yet... I was always under the (admittedly not-from-a-reliable-source) impression that you generally get electronics pretty much the moment Asia does.

By the by, somewhere upthread I mentioned that Sarah has a new low-damage 6P+G throw that can either guarantee a small down attack or be changed (command 6P+G8) to leave the opponent standing sideturned at a small frame disadvantage. It turns out that this is a pretty common feature in general; several of the characters seem to have exactly that kind of throw (Jacky, Lau, Aoi, etc.). It's a neat little option to play with.

Didn't get my stick yesterday (fun with blizzards!), might get it today. That'd be nice, as I really want to test out Akira.

Wakare

03-02-2007, 01:27 PM

What, nobody is flaming me for favoring another game? What dark corner of the internet have I wandered into?

Anyway, I had a good run with Sarah last night. I think it helps that I've forgotten most of her moves from Evo, so I've been sticking with the basics and adding new moves as I find them. I'm still pretty much trounced by my boss, who is the king of fuzzy guard, but every once in a while I can keep him under pressure and pull off a decisive win. I do really well against our Aoi player as long as I remain unpredictable. (Which isn't hard to do when you're a scrub. :D)

Her 8P ground attack seems a lot more reliable now. I've also lost track of the ways she can get into flamingo now, and her long-range attacks feel a bit safer. I'm having a much easier time keeping control over the pace of the fight, which is the only way I can win any fighting game. (In that other game I play "Poke-poke Ivy" and really annoy the bejeezus out of my opponent by constantly interrupting them at all ranges.)

I really miss the Evo tutorial. Being able to see the various combos in action is way easier than reading the forums and trying to remember what the various attacks look like.

nonsense

03-02-2007, 02:02 PM

What, nobody is flaming me for favoring another game? What dark corner of the internet have I wandered into?

We're civilized over here in VGO. Not like them tabletop folk, with their Exalteds!

I really miss the Evo tutorial. Being able to see the various combos in action is way easier than reading the forums and trying to remember what the various attacks look like.

Yeah, I hear you. I used to LOVE that feature of the Evo free tutorial that would allow you to see what combos you could nail from the various launchers, even adjusted for your opponent's weight class. That was really, really handy stuff. The practice-your-fundamentals combo/string trials were really nice as well.

Alas. Maybe there'll be a VF5: EVO. :)

Chikahiro

03-02-2007, 02:08 PM

What, nobody is flaming me for favoring another game? What dark corner of the internet have I wandered into?
It can be arranged if you're more comfortable with it. I think perhaps I need to make a fanboy-madlib for these occassions..

I really miss the Evo tutorial.
Everybody and their mother misses that tutorial mode :(

Alas. Maybe there'll be a VF5: EVO. :)
Given how many revisions the VF4 series had (including Evo and Final Tuned), I've got little to no doubt.

Quasar

03-02-2007, 02:43 PM

I'm a bit surprised you guys don't have it in Oz yet... I was always under the (admittedly not-from-a-reliable-source) impression that you generally get electronics pretty much the moment Asia does.

With game consoles we're always getting stuck with Europe due to the PAL issue. Of course at the moment we can import a Japanese PS3 for 30% less than what Sony Australia will be charging. How f'd up is that.

nonsense

03-02-2007, 03:28 PM

With game consoles we're always getting stuck with Europe due to the PAL issue. Of course at the moment we can import a Japanese PS3 for 30% less than what Sony Australia will be charging. How f'd up is that.

Gah. Is that lower amount still roughly in line with a month's rent like hereabouts? :D

Some quick Akira notes:

Scrubs Rejoice

Remember how VF4 added a knee to Akira's K+G command, and it was awesome, because you wouldn't get a high kick every time you botch that horrid K(G) command that never, ever works reliably?

Well, good news! The OTHER sequence that's damn near impossible to nail for the average human being has been simplified! 3K+G -> 6P -> P+K will get you a DLC. The previous command (3K+G -> 6P ->466P+K) still exists, and will get you the same thing with 15 more damage.

Finally, the cleverly named Akira Special III has also been simplified. It's no longer 2K+G -> 6K -> 46P. Now it's just 2K+G ->K ->P.

I'm pretty happy about this, because Akira's difficult enough to use well without the freakish precision required to nail some of those old inputs.

In other news, the SPOD's now purely linear.

The SDE (666P) no longer crumples on counter. It launches on hit, and launches higher on an MC. Perfect time to use a now-possible DLC!

46P+K+G is regrettably changed. I used to love the hell out of that move. Now there's no duck or mini-backdash, and it doesn't send the opponent sprawling. Instead, you get a mid-hitting slowish punch that side-turns the opponent. On the plus-side, it's extremely safe.

New string in 66P+K,P. Quick, long distance, special high->mid sequence that combo if the first hits and knock down. Can be canceled into an evade/stance kinda thing from which a few attacks are available by 66P+K8/2.

New awesome mid poke in P+K that can be followed by a second P+K for a slam -> DLC/AS3 combo. Guaranteed if the first P+K counters. There's also a mid available in P+K,6P, and a jab in P+K,P. All P+K sequences are unpunishable frame-wise, though of course the highs can be ducked.

46P+G floats. The throw itself now does piss-poor damage, but allows for a followup. I didn't find anything reliably awesome to combo off the float that reliably does more damage than 16P+G would do on its own.

The new slam system makes for some really nice juggle combos, by the by. If you're floating or crumpling someone, 43P will bounce them right off the ground and leave you in a crouching state, from which the [2]46P double palm is guaranteed to land. From a Yoho or QCBP, you're looking at 70 easy damage.

So, basically, I like Akira a lot better in this installment, but I really miss the wondrous piece of work that was 46P+K+G.

Quasar

03-02-2007, 05:04 PM

Gah. Is that lower amount still roughly in line with a month's rent like hereabouts? :D

:)

Not in Sydney. The Australian price is about in line with a months rent on the cheap end.

In fact, I can get a Japanese PS3 to my door for less than I paid for a PSOne here at launch. And thats talking straight numbers, not looking at inflation. Which is why I'm that close from importing one. It all depends on whether I can access the local Playstation store with it. Thus I'm waiting to see how other fare.

Quasar

03-02-2007, 05:16 PM

nonsense

03-02-2007, 05:35 PM

What I want to know is why Sega left out online play. I've heard some say that lag due to online play would have a substantial impact on VF play. Is that really a valid excuse? I've never really played any VF game. Least not on a home system.

It's pretty valid as far as it goes. It's sort of a shame, because there are plenty of people who'd be willing to play, potential lag and all, but VF is fast-paced and requires some very swift reaction time.

Chikahiro

03-02-2007, 05:39 PM

What I want to know is why Sega left out online play. I've heard some say that lag due to online play would have a substantial impact on VF play. Is that really a valid excuse? I've never really played any VF game. Least not on a home system.

Basic argument:

VF engine runs at 60 frames a second. So, every second its checking stuff - does something hit, what animation is going, status of an attack, lord knows what else.

Lag can cause a delay between players, so what you do (or happens to you) doesn't instantly register on both systems at the same time. The severity will vary depending on connection, obviously.

Timing and responsiveness is super important to VF. Some things like throw escapes, for example, are extremely sensitive to timing; you window to escape a throw is pretty small as is. Lag could make throws uncounterable, since by the time the thrown player realises they're about to be throw, its already too late to counter. Lag induced delay could cause many moves to become very safe, even unpunishable.

Changing the engine to accommodate this would introduce radical changes to the system, and would pretty much cause VF to be VF in name only. The precision required in former games would not be needed anymore. Throws (and consequently grapplers) would be quite gimped. Damage would need to be adjusted based on new risk/reward factors. It would require a complete overhauling of the engine - its that big of a change. They might as well revamp an older fighter or make a whole new one if they're going to make that massive of a change.

Other things to consider:

VF is strongest in Japan. Period. Lots of arcades have it, there's VF.Net, etc. Online play is not a draw there due to availability of machines and players (some arcades have whole floors dedicated to it). Why spend that much time and money on a feature the core market (Japan) won't care about?

The Japanese players, due to game availability, competition, and overall resources of game material play, on average, at a higher skill level. What won't throw Joe Average elsewhere off will throw them off. An imperfect gaming experience will not increase the appeal of VF in its core market when its (mostly hardcore) audience has other, better options.

Even current online fighters flux between "just about perfect" to "laggy, horrible, terrible" for online experiences. This inconsistency, even with less demanding fighters, does not bode well for an online VF or Tekken.

VF is an acquired taste to begin with with a steep learning curve. A poor online experience coupled with getting thwomped by more experienced players will do nothing for its reputation.

VF is a niche fighter, and with VF5, seems to be content with that. Adding in features to appeal to new players (like VF4/Evo) would be nice, but it seems that VF4/Evo didn't do that - and those were the most new-player friendly VFs to ever come out AND were on a popular, wide-spread system (PS2). Arguably, it had every reason to do gangbusters, but didn't. Henceforth my belief that Sega isn't bothering with the mainstream gamers, but sticking with their core market.

Chikahiro

03-02-2007, 05:54 PM

http://virtuafighter.com/view.php?section=vf4&file=vf4ft_frames_guide.html

This might help you understand better than my (aweful) explanation. Advantages and disadvantages in this game are quick - to the point that they measure in 1/60ths of a second! Its pretty crazy.

nonsense

03-04-2007, 07:30 AM

Played around with El Blaze a little bit.. He's got a LOT of staggers, with a few attacks that crumple from them (46P+K, for instance, gets a stomach crumple off a stagger/MC, and he's got the low throws to mix in with some guaranteed combos, so I suspect that may be a good part of his game). The Rocket Discharge (my puerile brain chuckles at that every time) is pretty nice. If you hold 6 after certain attack strings (or hit 6P+K+G from standing, though the animation is much slower this way), you can start a mixup between a catch throw, and some mids / a low dropkick (spcl. low, I think - like Wolf's, which I think was removed... so it staggers opponents blocking high, and is probably intensely punishable if blocked low), or cancel into some of his other movement options (a roll that goes under high attacks, and a leap that goes over low ones, both of which turn into attacks).

He's got a good throw game, with several directions (including two directions for lows), though 3 and 6 seem to be a lot more dangerous than the others; he might be easy to throw escape (insofar as it's ever easy to throw escape) for that reason.

He hasn't clicked with me yet, and I'm not sure how much potential he's got, but he seems a decent character for anyone who likes a mix of strikes and throws, and doesn't want to play someone as slow as Jeff or as complicated as Aoi.

David J Prokopetz

03-04-2007, 08:02 AM

VF engine runs at 60 frames a second. So, every second its checking stuff - does something hit, what animation is going, status of an attack, lord knows what else.

Lag can cause a delay between players, so what you do (or happens to you) doesn't instantly register on both systems at the same time. The severity will vary depending on connection, obviously.There are ways around some of this stuff, of course. F'rex, run the entire game engine on a dedicated server, do all of the frame rendering server-side, and stream compressed video to the clients. All the client machines do is send the user's input directly to the server and display the video stream. It clears up the issue of players getting out of synch, though it still gives a timing advantage to whoever has lower latency to the server.

Of course, nobody does it that way, 'cause the level of hardware investment it requires is insane.

Chikahiro

03-04-2007, 11:00 AM

The trick is right now there's no realy way for me to play you, for example, and not introduce any lag whatsoever. So at the moment its not possible to have an "arcade perfect" game of VF online. Adding lag changes how the game is played, and its not something that can be easily accounted for (when will there be lag? how much? how long?). I recall Sega claiming they did testing with simulated lag and found it changed the game too much, and cited that as a reason its not being put in.

Sadly, given how niche VF is, right now there's no way to make it playable online and keep its (mostly hardcore) fans (in Japan) happy. Actually, given how technically demanding most fighters are (Tekken, VF, etc), the "killer app" for fighters (online), isn't. Of course, I've heard numerous (anecdotal) reports of fighters with online not necessarily having a longer playlife or better community for it.

Perdidas

03-04-2007, 01:09 PM

I would definitely not play VF (or even Tekken, which requires a much lesser degree of precision) online given the state of current hardware. Noone I've spoken with who plays Tekken at a competitive level disagrees with me.

When you're dealing with a genre where the state of the game changes in increments of 60ths of a second, even the smallest amount of latency renders the game unplayable.

For instance, say I'm using Jin in TTT and knock my opponent down. Now, his options from wake-up are basically stay down, sideroll, backroll, a rising low attack, and a rising mid attack. Let's look at the rising mid attack - this will deal a small amount of damage to me, and knock me down, but if I block it I'm at +14. In that situation, my EWGF will be guaranteed, as it's a 13 frame move, and it leads to roughly 40-55% of the opponent's bar.

However, should even a small level of latency be factored in, there's no way I could possibly punish with an EWGF as the window to punish is far too small. The best I could reasonably hope for would be to punish with a 112. This knocks down, but will only deal roughly 15% of an opponent's bar.

Here we see even a small degree of latency changing the risk/reward structure of a move - players will be more likely to use a rising mid from grounded against Mishimas if they know it can no longer be punished by such obscene damage. Morover, this not only changes the risk/reward of an individual move, but also that of the entire wake-up situation. The rising low, side roll, backroll and other options are much less attractive given that a rising mid is no longer punishable by an EWGF.

Characters in an advantaged position will need to change their entire psychology when approaching wake-up situations, and unlearn their strategies and approaches to the wakeup game (this is but one example - there are countless, countless situations where one frame of precision is required, and different options will need to be pursued should that window be effectively shortened).

Noone will possibly be willing to relearn their strategies and approaches to a game to compensate for latency. Particularly not when the new strategies are less than optimal in tournaments or in arcade play.

Chikahiro

03-04-2007, 02:33 PM

A friend of mine likes to play SFIII:TS online, but has commented his real (ie, competitive, "there's money involved") game has actually degraded as a result.

nonsense

03-06-2007, 06:52 AM

Got my Hori, so at last I'm not torturing the poor gamepad, and everything's become miles more responsive.

Some thoughts:

1) I think inputs in general might have gotten a bit more forgiving between Evo and V. Some of the hit throws seem to have more relaxed timing, as do some of the JF attacks, and I'm finding myself able to do Akira's knee pretty reliably (like, 7 times out of 10). Huh.

2) Quest AI also seems to have gotten a little weaker, but it may be that it just needs to scale to my rank, and it may be that I'm misremembering. It seems like anything under 9th or 10th dan doesn't escape throws very effectively, doesn't fuzzy, and doesn't get up quickly enough. I'm landing small down attacks quite regularly in non-guaranteed situations (and this on the hard difficulty). The 9th/10th dans are alright, and I've not yet seen anything higher. So while you can enter any arcade you want right off the bat, it seems like they still scale to your rank to some degree.

3) It's possible to win a tan in random item battles. I think, with the right tan and black hair, it may be possible to make Wolf look at least remotely Native. Also, it may be possible to de-Jacksonify Vanessa and make her black again.

Help me Wolf!

Finally, Perdidas - I've been trying to mess around with Wolf a bit, because he and Shun are the long-established characters I still don't really know my way around, and I'm having a little difficulty dealing with opponents that play safe. I have an unfortunate tendency to freeze up defensively, because he just has so few safe, effective strikes.

How do you get around that? I can throw fine off defense, oki, or just generally out of nowhere, but if I'm against someone who can keep attacking without really exposing themselves to punishment (Pai, Akira), I have difficulty. Should I just concentrate on defense, soak a few hits, and hope they make a mistake, or do I need to play a little riskier?

I've mostly been using the toe kick/stunner, HCBPP, 1P and QCFP to get my offense rolling, occasionally tossing in a knee or a 46P+K, and jab-throwing a lot, and it works alright against weak opponents, but good ones just shut me down with speed and hard-to-throw stances (HATE LEI FEI).

Also, teach me to use Wolf's catch throws. In what situations should I be messing with 6P+G instead of going for a regular throw? And what's up with the evade-throw. Any situation in which that's more useful than simply evading and throwing afterward?

Perdidas

03-07-2007, 03:38 PM

Finally, Perdidas - I've been trying to mess around with Wolf a bit, because he and Shun are the long-established characters I still don't really know my way around, and I'm having a little difficulty dealing with opponents that play safe. I have an unfortunate tendency to freeze up defensively, because he just has so few safe, effective strikes.

How do you get around that? I can throw fine off defense, oki, or just generally out of nowhere, but if I'm against someone who can keep attacking without really exposing themselves to punishment (Pai, Akira), I have difficulty. Should I just concentrate on defense, soak a few hits, and hope they make a mistake, or do I need to play a little riskier?

I've mostly been using the toe kick/stunner, HCBPP, 1P and QCFP to get my offense rolling, occasionally tossing in a knee or a 46P+K, and jab-throwing a lot, and it works alright against weak opponents, but good ones just shut me down with speed and hard-to-throw stances (HATE LEI FEI).

It sounds as though you're pretty much going in the right direction - the moves that you listed all form the bulk of my game with Wolf. A lot of his offense revolves around ticking into throws/low throws with generic poking tools.

I've heard that it's changed in VF5 but in Evo you can use some poke strategies to set up a frame trap for 4P, which leads to a juggle. You can also use P/3P/6P to pressure people into using a low punch, and buffer his low punch reversal afterwards.

On the topic of reversals, his mid kick reversal is a pretty good oki option to shut down one of his opponents wakeups. It's probably more worthwhile than punishing with a throw mixup against people who can break consistently.

But yeah, people with unthrowable stances will give you a huge headache. I wish I could help you out on that one.

Also, teach me to use Wolf's catch throws. In what situations should I be messing with 6P+G instead of going for a regular throw? And what's up with the evade-throw. Any situation in which that's more useful than simply evading and throwing afterward?

Honestly, the evade-throw is useless, probably the worst evade+PKG in the game. If you happen to be evading from range and the opponent whiffs then throw it out, but really I wouldn't plan a game around it. As for the catch, the only thing I (very, very rarely) use the 44P+G for is to evade a baited rising kick or punch string. I never use the 6P+G, especially given that Wolf has so many better throw options which lead to guaranteed damage (giant swing, 33P+G, HCB+P+G).

Perdidas

03-07-2007, 03:44 PM

In other news, the Brisbane/GC VF scene (such as it is) won't be VF5-less much longer. Noodalls (resident Japanese-trained VF guru) won a PS3 copy from a competition on VFDC's forums, so it'll only be a couple of weeks until an import PS3 is hooked up (rather than the couple of months we expected until the local release).

To celebrate I'm thinking of picking up a new character. I 'm reasonably decent with Brad and Shun, and Vanessa and Goh both look interesting. Hmmm, I guess it's off to mess around in Evo's training mode until someone catches my fancy.

Chikahiro

03-07-2007, 03:47 PM

Nodalls? Does he(?) post on Gamespot or GameFAQs? There's a Noodalls there who actually posts some good stuff in the VF forum (well, did - the static:noise over there is pretty horrible)...

Perdidas

03-07-2007, 04:25 PM

Nodalls? Does he(?) post on Gamespot or GameFAQs? There's a Noodalls there who actually posts some good stuff in the VF forum (well, did - the static:noise over there is pretty horrible)...

That's almost definitely him - he's pretty active in promoting VF online, and has written a bunch of FAQs (particularly frame data stuff) for various places.

Bignose

03-12-2007, 10:25 AM

This thread convinced me to track down a copy of VF Evo (for the bargain price of £5!) in preparation for VF5's arrival on the 360. What a game! I've gotta say that the tutorial mode is fantastic!

One of the things I was going to ask about was the idea of "depth" in gameplay, I used to play (or mash to be precise) the old Virtua Fighters and never really got my head round the system but the tutorial has opened my eyes to what you people mean by the depth of the game. Its still all a bit of a blur at the moment and having to think about combos, buffering, evades, throw escapes etc. is a long way from coming naturally.

How much of this do you incorporate in your game? Timing seems to be an important part in much of the system from button presses to escapes and evades, I'm starting to see what they mean about this games learning curve. I'm watching the videos on youtube with some new admiration.

PS. How's Shun looking in VF5?

nonsense

03-12-2007, 10:42 AM

How much of this do you incorporate in your game? Timing seems to be an important part in much of the system from button presses to escapes and evades, I'm starting to see what they mean about this games learning curve. I'm watching the videos on youtube with some new admiration.

PS. How's Shun looking in VF5?

To the first, I'd say most of it, though I tend not to ETEG much. I'm not the sharpest throw escaper in the world, so I tend to save those inputs for guaranteed throw situations and try to use Fuzzy Guarding (ducking to avoid a throw, but standing up in time to block a mid attack) and regular evades in smaller disadvantage situations.

Learn how counterable you are. Generally speaking, VF is a game of risk and reward. Big combo starters that can cause a lot of damage are usually (not always) pretty unsafe, and can be punished with at least a guaranteed throw attempt if they're blocked. Learn to poke and move around, and use your big moves sparingly.

I'd start with a single character, and learn your combo starters and what you can land from them first. I'd also start with general sort of bread-and-butter combos that will work against all weight classes, or out of both stances (in VF5, a lot of stance requirements have been relaxed, and many combos that were previously limited to open or closed stance work reliably now). When you have those down, you can start getting into the more specific combos.

One thing I find useful is a mental checklist before I start a match. Who am I facing? What is their weight class? What are their most dangerous throw directions? If you can buffer even two throw escapes instead of one, you can really shut down some characters (see, for instance, Lau, who has lots of dangerous throws in the 6 and 3 directions, and nothing terribly damaging elsewhere).

(Also, as an aside, I'd say Lau and Jacky are the most balanced characters, and the best choice for learning VF from the fundamentals up).

As for Shun, I honestly can't comment. He's improved significantly enough that he's now considered to be a top-tier character in Japan, which is definitely a change from the norm - he was generally considered pretty weak alongside Jeffry, who remains near the bottom (not that tiers in VF are quite as significant as in other games). However, I've never really grokked how to play him, so there's not much I can say. I can tell you he's got a new stance with an amazing nearly all-purpose sabaki (an attack that parries other attacks), but other than that, I'm somewhat mystified.

rgalex

03-12-2007, 11:25 AM

I've got a quick question.

I'm not a huge fan of fighting games, but I do like playing them from time to time when the mood strikes me. Right now VF5 and a download of Tekken 5 ( I think it's 5) are the only options for the PS3.

I'm a big fan of old 2D games like Street Fighter, Dark Stalkers and Guilty Gear. Out of the newer 3D games I'm ok with Soul Calibur and Mortal Combat and I like the DOA games but I absolutely detest Tekken. The characters in Tekken, to me, feel too heavy and stiff if that makes sense. I've never played a VF game so I have no idea how it plays.

In general I'm also not fond of fighters that are little less friendly to casual players (need to play often to master combos and counters and juggles, etc). A little practice and knowledge to play well is ok though. Basically, I want something I can pop in and play, do a few cool moves and not get my ass handed to me for hours on end by the 2nd guy in the line up.

So, using that as a guide would anyone here recommend VF5 to me?

Bignose

03-12-2007, 11:38 AM

Thanks nonsenseconscience. I had to do a glossary check on some of your terms(!) and now I have some more questions.

Fuzzy guard. Is this a constant bobbing up and down or are you timing the one rise from crouch motion in anticipation of attack

Open and closed stance. How important is this in gameplay, what does it effect? I hadn't really noticed it at all.

nonsense

03-12-2007, 12:03 PM

So, using that as a guide would anyone here recommend VF5 to me?

I don't think I would. VF doesn't really have much in the way of visual flash, engaging side modes, or what have you. On the easy difficulties, you could definitely have some fun mashing your way through, but I think the meat of the game is its complexity. The best thing to do is to try it out yourself (say, at an arcade), or look at some vids to see if you like how it moves, but I'm generally of the opinion that VF isn't the best choice for a pick-up-and-play fighting game. 'Course, I would actually have recommended Tekken, and you don't seem to like that, so.... :p

Thanks nonsenseconscience. I had to do a glossary check on some of your terms(!) and now I have some more questions.

Fuzzy guard. Is this a constant bobbing up and down or are you timing the one rise from crouch motion in anticipation of attack

Open and closed stance. How important is this in gameplay, what does it effect? I hadn't really noticed it at all.

Fuzzy is basically the latter. In VF4, throws take 8 frames to execute, and most mid attacks take about 14+.. so generally the idea is to duck out of a small disadvantage for the 8/60 of a second it takes to throw, and then to stand up after that. It's like a bob, but one with a preset timing (and one that assumes your opponent will throw at the first opportunity instead of, say, delaying a moment).

Edit: The reason this is phrased as a mid vs. throw mixup, by the way, is simply because high attacks can also be ducked and are slower than throws, while fuzzy will automatically defeat lows by virtue of being a crouching block.

(This timing, incidentally, isn't really workable in VF5, because throws were increased to 12 frames... back to the drawing board. :) ).

Open and closed - very little difference. It basically only affects certain hyper-specific combos, that may whiff if you're standing the wrong way relative to your opponent.

Jacky, for instance, has a metric TON of these. Here's one example taken sort of from memory, and probably incorrect... but illustrative nonetheless. :)

From 4K+G, a kick that slams your opponent to the ground, Jacky can always land an 8p big down attack. However, if he's stance-conscious, he can land a bigger combo, 2p, KK, from Open. That won't work in closed stance, though.. there, he can use the even bigger 2p, 6P,K, but that one won't work in open stance.

So in practice, I just use the 8p, cause I'll be damned if I'm gonna verify his stance all the damn time. :p

rgalex

03-12-2007, 12:21 PM

I don't think I would. VF doesn't really have much in the way of visual flash, engaging side modes, or what have you. On the easy difficulties, you could definitely have some fun mashing your way through, but I think the meat of the game is its complexity. The best thing to do is to try it out yourself (say, at an arcade), or look at some vids to see if you like how it moves, but I'm generally of the opinion that VF isn't the best choice for a pick-up-and-play fighting game. 'Course, I would actually have recommended Tekken, and you don't seem to like that, so.... :p

Thanks. :)

I don't know about Tekken. I like the characters and all, but the controls just seem off to me. The best way I can explain it would be like I said above: stiff, heavy and sloggish. The characters just don't seem to flow from move to move for me. That was ok in 2D games, but not in the 3D ones. I think I'll go rent VF5 this afternoon just to give it a look-see. I'll let you all know what I think, FWIW, in a day or two. ;)

Qetu

03-12-2007, 01:41 PM

I started gritting my teeth in VF4:evo in light of this thread (i had the game from a vf4evo+gamepad bundle, but i reeled about it on my first tries), with Goh. Not much float juggling, but lots of judo grapples. I wish Tekken made grapples/throws more important, like in VF, but the multiescaping is really convoluted ... Still, i don't like the animation and graphic style (which i think reached its peak at VF3 arcade, much ahead of the contemporary (? i think) Tekken Tag). I'm still a Tekken player but i get to know the VF tactics. Since i know much more about Tekken, i still think the system is better (SS+SW>Evades,Guard Button= I hate, 4+ inputs but a bit canned > 2+ inputs not really flowing, floaty juggles = stupid in both games).

:D go go fighter players!

Chikahiro

03-12-2007, 01:54 PM

Wow... Goh... he's hard to use...

VF3 was ahead of its time graphically (in no small part due to its extremely expensive custom hardware) and in some gameplay respects (many of which proved unpopular with the longtime fans and got rolled back in VF4, but were rescued by DOA and other fighters).

I think the multiescaping is part of the reason why throws are important - being high damage and difficult to escape gives you an excellent reason to use and be wary of them.

I would not say Tekken's system is better, or that VF's is better either (long, ugly flames typically ensue). I will say that both have very distinct flavors, though. If you prefer one of the other, well, that's because the flavor suits you better. Personally? I'm better at Tekken than I am VF, but I prefer VF.

And in the experience of myself and every other competitive fighter play I know, both in real life and online through forums, a good stick > practically any pad you can think of. If you're a serious fighter player, or just like playing arcade style games, a good stick (cross-platform natively or through adapters, if possible) is well worth the purchase.

Stantz

03-12-2007, 02:13 PM

VF3 was ahead of its time graphically (in no small part due to its extremely expensive custom hardware) and in some gameplay respects (many of which proved unpopular with the longtime fans and got rolled back in VF4, but were rescued by DOA and other fighters).VF3 confused the living hell out of me, so could you do me the favor of explaining exactly what the hell was up with that one?

nonsense

03-12-2007, 02:25 PM

VF3 confused the living hell out of me, so could you do me the favor of explaining exactly what the hell was up with that one?

Basically, they thought adding stages with differing elevations and a fourth button for evading would somehow improve VF.

They were wrong, but at least we got Aoi out of the bargain.

Chikahiro

03-12-2007, 02:25 PM

Dodge button - a common (and ugly) way to try and effect 3d movement in a game that would otherwise be fought primarily on a 2d basis.

Irregular ring sizes/shapes - this could confer an advantage to different characters/playstyles depending, making stage selection more important than it should've been

Irregular terrain - Makes countering more confusing ("Where will that hit?"), and attacks that would normally hit in one location would hit (or miss) in another. Unnecessarily complicated.

They're good ideas, and would've been better in a sequel, however the fans decried them for various reasons (not the least of which is monkeying too much with the recipe). DOA picked these up and ran with them, which in turn has really helped the series become more than VF with fanservice.

Chikahiro

03-12-2007, 02:34 PM

Basically, they thought adding stages with differing elevations and a fourth button for evading would somehow improve VF.

They were wrong, but at least we got Aoi out of the bargain.

I think the stage idea could've held if the 3d movement was done better (like in more modern 3d fighters). Its a logical progression, really, but it introduced too many changes/variables. Still, VF3 was pretty amazing for 1996.

Oh, and Taka. I guess we can blame the sumotori for the failure of VF3 @_@

Stantz

03-12-2007, 02:37 PM

Oh, and Taka. I guess we can blame the sumotori for the failure of VF3 @_@Can't really argue with this one. It would have been such a better game if I didn't have to listen to all those goddamned Austin Powers 2 quotes from my opponent.

nonsense

03-12-2007, 03:01 PM

Aoi

The good:

2KPP, a low-mid-mid string that's pretty safe on block... the last hit can be delayed a long time, and gives you a stomach crumple if it counters. Small disadvantage on regular hit, and fairly useful in combos.

KPK, a high-high-mid(semi-circular), which is safe every step of the way and gives advantage on hit. Also appearing is KK, her old high-mid axe kick, which is nice against ducking opponents.... but you'd better hit, because it's throw counterable on block. Bleh.

66K, hopping kick, covers good ground, flops the opponent down. 2kpp will combo from it, as will 6kk. In both cases, it's a pretty unimpressive 45 damage off an attack that's punch counterable. Not a great tradeoff, but the range and hopping properties are handy.

33P+K is her old 3P, and it launches on a regular hit now instead of needing a counter to do so. Punch counterable, use with care. PP6PP will combo off it for just under 60 damage on a regular hit, and KK will do a bit less but also slam them down in front of you. Quick roll is possible, but if they don't, a small down attack is guaranteed and will bring damage up to 60... if they're really slow, you may be able to get in a down throw for big damage.

The Bad:

Her elbow strings - the core of her offense - are no longer all-mid. This sucks. 6P+K,P starts high (though it's safe and semi-circular, so it's not all bad). 6PP ends high. At least she has the option to cancel and try for a low throw if you've got a duck-happy opponent. Not that this is in any way safe, of course.

Risk. Risk, risk, risk. If you play Aoi defensively, she's high-risk, high-reward*. Her sabakis, reversals (side kick and high punch reversals still guarantee a low (ed: down, not low) throw attempt afterward for ~60ish damage for the sequence) and 43P+K counters often end in crumples, and stomach crumples can get you just under 60 guaranteed damage (2kp 64P+K,P). Sure, Akira would get like... eighty kabillion, but let's not dwell on that. If you try to play her more offensively, the dynamic changes to high risk, low reward. She DOES have the tools to get out of trouble better than anyone else, but that only counts when followups aren't guaranteed. I think you have to be really careful and methodical to play VF5 Aoi effectively. She's not as forgiving as before.

*Edit: Unless you really love the YY stance, which is very low risk but also guarantees nothing.

nonsense

03-28-2007, 10:59 AM

Wakey, wakey, thread!

So I've now been playing a fair bit, and it's my opinion that this is easily the best (and best-balanced as well) version of Virtua Fighter I've seen thus far. I REALLY miss the better training options in other iterations, because I've wanted to try a number of things I can't actually make it do (for instance, getting an opponent to use a particular string to see if I can sabaki midway, or what have you), but that's life.

In terms of what's happened to previous characters, I'd say pretty much everybody was improved across the board (though relative balance has changed a little; some improved more than others).

Some of the changes were fairly subtle (Jeff being safer, Jacky and Lau being mostly unchanged), some were double-edged (Sarah got trickier and got some very nice new tools, but her big money attacks from previous games were nerfed), and some were huge (Vanessa and Shun are beasts). The exception to the rule is Aoi, the only character who got significantly (and inexplicably) worse than she's ever been.

The new characters fit in well, and are quite effective in their own right, which actually surprises me a bit, because new entrants to the VF series are generally a bit weak until the next version fixes them. El Blaze is a LOT of fun, by the by, as befits a luchadore.

I mess with everyone to some extent, but Jeff's still the main... that said, Vanessa, of all people - a character I never really felt comfortable with in VF4x - is quickly climbing in the ranks. It took a while for us to click, but holy mother of knees to the face, she's effective.

General verdict:

VF5's not terribly flashy, it's not kind to new players, and the port needs a few more training features. But it's VF, and it's damn good VF.