[Iron Heroes] I just realized...

[Samaritan]

... I haven't seen a thread on it in a good long while. Just a lull, or was it simply one of the "RPGnet darlings" for awhile?

[Bill_Coffin]

All I know is I went to the Compleat Strategist in Manhattan to buy it the other day, and not only was it out of stock, I was told the darned thing is out of print. So apparently, it's sold decently enough.

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

How about...
"I dream day and night of running Iron Heroes and can't find players. It can be trough internet, just let me run it please. I even mad counteee *sob*"

[Samaritan]

How about...
"I dream day and night of running Iron Heroes and can't find players. It can be trough internet, just let me run it please. I even mad counteee *sob*"

Draw them in, is that it? :)

[fifth_child]

I've seen some grumbling that seemed to indicate some people gave up on it due to "lack of support." It seems silly to me, because the game's quite complete as is: you don't need a sourcebook coming out every month or two to be a great game.

[cjh]

All I know is I went to the Compleat Strategist in Manhattan to buy it the other day, and not only was it out of stock, I was told the darned thing is out of print. So apparently, it's sold decently enough.

Maybe this will mean a corrected second printing will be released. :D We can hope. I've got the PDF and it certainly looks intriguing to me, even with my dislike of D&D and a lot of fantasy.

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

Draw them in, is that it? :)

*grins*
Exactly. Any chance to snatch someone willing to play.

[Balbinus]

Games without a supplement train tend not to get much love here, Iron Heroes is complete and as such gets little discussion.

Odd to my mind, but there it is, this site for better or worse is latest cool thing orientated.

[mcrow]

this thing was the hot book locally when it came out. One of our FLGS sold over 100 in the first two weeks.

[PaladinCA]

The game is fantastic if you like combat side of D&D more than the magic, which I most certainly do.

I have everything for the game that I need so lack of supplements isn't an issue.

I would definetly buy a Revised Edition, especially if it combined all three of the main books into a single hardcover and included lots of bling bling. :D

[Bill_Coffin]

I would definetly buy a Revised Edition, especially if it combined all three of the main books into a single hardcover and included lots of bling bling. :D

That would be a pretty huge book. The corebook was big as it was, and the Mastering Iron Heroes and the Iron Heroes Bestiary, while not large books, would each make a substantial pge count contribution to a revised and expanded Iron Heroes.

Of course, compared to monsters like Ptolus, IHR&E would feel like a pamphlet.

[Crazy Jerome]

This discussion on the Malhavoc boards might interest some of you. Crowroadaw is the point guy for IH now:

http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36.showMessage?topicID=2029.topic

[The Tim]

One of my many languishing RPG projects is modifying Iron Heroes magic to be more like the source material, and to add Talebearers--social focused characters to fit either a bard role or the devious priest sort (this means more Social feats need to be made, sigh...)

The game is awesome. The Feasts, the Challenges, the Stunts, and the general whoop-ass nature of the characters rock. I want to run a game of it just to include a session that is entirely focused on climbing a mountain. It'll be like a massive combat against the mountain, with a few beasts in there to provide a little change up and meat, because whoop-ass characters climbing mountains need meat to keep up their strength.

There's just something about D&D that makes that sort of session seem not to fit. It isn't just the magic or lesser skill access. The way Iron Heroes is written implies struggles of this sort, with characters making grapple checks against slick rocks, and performing desperate Climbing and Use Rope stunts because they need to make it to a ledge before they drop from exhaustion.

[Tomes]

I'm playing in an IH game right now (ok - not right now, on Thursday).

It's been running for about five sessions now (and after most of last year with me running Exalted 2nd) I'm really liking the chance to play.

It's a celtic-themed setting, with a very small world focus. It's really nice to play in a low magic setting for a change - although the setting has tiny *hints* of weirdness happening off camera. Magic is bad, mmmkay?

Character-wise, we have the village blacksmith, the headman's daughter, and the orphan-who-apprentices-with-the-wise-woman. Not a typical IH cast, but the game is new to the GM and he has some D&D baggage.

All that aside, the game is very cool, and we're enjoying it lots. I enjoy the David Gemmell feel of it all.

--Lux, (playing the 11 year old wise-woman's apprentice in an Arya Stark vein)

[sbca1995]

Games without a supplement train tend not to get much love here, Iron Heroes is complete and as such gets little discussion.

Odd to my mind, but there it is, this site for better or worse is latest cool thing orientated.
Would Game of Thrones fall into this category?

[Balbinus]

Would Game of Thrones fall into this category?

I would say so, why, does that disprove my hypothesis? Is it getting a ton of love? I hadn't noticed, but it's not impossible.

As a general trend, I do think games currently under active production get more love here than games not under active production.

[Marius B]

Games without a supplement train tend not to get much love here, Iron Heroes is complete and as such gets little discussion.


*cough*Adventure!*cough* ;)

[Christopher V. Brady]

*cough*Adventure!*cough* ;)

Um, where? Can't seem to find any recent threads on it.

Outside of the latest stuff on WW, or some on DnD/D20 stuff, I don't see a lot of activity outside of one guy wanting to repimp his favourite game.

I agree with Balbinus.

[Bradford C. Walker]

Besides the lack of support, IH fails at itemization. Gear matters, and if you're not using magic to differentiate between qualities and capabilities of gear then you need to substitute something else. IH fails to do this, and that's part of the reason for its failure, which is disappointing to me.

[Squid]

Besides the lack of support, IH fails at itemization. Gear matters, and if you're not using magic to differentiate between qualities and capabilities of gear then you need to substitute something else. IH fails to do this, and that's part of the reason for its failure, which is disappointing to me.
Iron Heroes is designed not to have gear mattering, so to speak. That's a taste issue, and one that the designers specifically chose to engage.

[Belphanior]

Having the power come from the characters themselves instead of their equipment is the entire point of IH to begin with. That's what makes the game cool.

[fifth_child]

Having the power come from the characters themselves instead of their equipment is the entire point of IH to begin with. That's what makes the game cool.
Yep, this here's one of those lame "I agree with that guy" posts. :D

[Bradford C. Walker]

Iron Heroes is designed not to have gear mattering, so to speak. That's a taste issue, and one that the designers specifically chose to engage.
It was the wrong choice. No matter how much power a character has inherent to him, what he packs for tools & gear always matters just as much. This is not new; it's been that way for 30 years, and to ignore it is folly. It may be intended, but that doesn't make it right.

[Squid]

Also, aftering running quite a few sessions of it, it's never come up. The only 'gear related' stuff that ever comes up is either in-character desire for shiny stuff, or the occasional issue with oversized weapons.

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

It was the wrong choice. No matter how much power a character has inherent to him, what he packs for tools & gear always matters just as much. This is not new; it's been that way for 30 years, and to ignore it is folly. It may be intended, but that doesn't make it right.

Can I have his boots when you're done?

[Squid]

It was the wrong choice. No matter how much power a character has inherent to him, what he packs for tools & gear always matters just as much. This is not new; it's been that way for 30 years, and to ignore it is folly. It may be intended, but that doesn't make it right.
That's a subjective opinion.

Just because you state something like an objective fact doesn't mean that it is an objective fact.

[cjh]

Just because you state something like an objective fact doesn't mean that it is an objective fact.

Welcome to the One True Way!

[Christopher V. Brady]

It was the wrong choice. No matter how much power a character has inherent to him, what he packs for tools & gear always matters just as much. This is not new; it's been that way for 30 years, and to ignore it is folly. It may be intended, but that doesn't make it right.

??? In DnD maybe, but even then it fails as well. How often do you have to 'upgrade' your gear to the next latest and greatest. And I don't see why YOUR opinion of a game being 'wrong for you' means it's outright wrong for everyone.

Gear matters, I suppose in a sci-fi setting where everyone is on a more or less even playing field, so your toys are what gives your edge.

And for ME, I'd rather be known for my skill, not for being the dude with the 'Flametongue'.

Oh, as for the 30 years, I dunno, I hear there are some RQ grognards who would simply laugh at you for that comment.

[Similarian]

It was the wrong choice. No matter how much power a character has inherent to him, what he packs for tools & gear always matters just as much. This is not new; it's been that way for 30 years, and to ignore it is folly. It may be intended, but that doesn't make it right.


??? In DnD maybe, but even then it fails as well. How often do you have to 'upgrade' your gear to the next latest and greatest. And I don't see why YOUR opinion of a game being 'wrong for you' means it's outright wrong for everyone.



I think what Mr. Walker is trying to say is the most successful games in the RPG industry have always allowed characters to pick up equiptment and fiddle with points and values to complement their characters.

D&D and Shadowrun are the extreme examples, where equiptment is as vital as the character.

Vampire or the other WoD games are less focused, but you still have details about weapons, magical items, and the like.

Iron Heroes, by ignoring that desire to get cool shit, made a mistake if it was aiming to become a popular game.

Now, I personally disagree. I don't think you need detailed differences between items, since the game provides more than enough difference between any two people using similar gear through feat trees and such. That's not to say I wouldn't have enjoyed a small section with one or two odd metals and a few rules on masterwork items that offered some different advantages based on how things are made, but I don't need them.

[PaladinCA]

An Iron Hero knows he can count only on his own abilities.

An Iron Hero does not place his trust in equipment and most certainly not in arcane trinkets.

An Iron Hero considers survival to be the greatest of rewards.

[Bill_Coffin]

Conan! What does an Iron Hero do?

An Iron Hero knows he can count only on his own abilities.

An Iron Hero does not place his trust in equipment and most certainly not in arcane trinkets.

An Iron Hero considers survival to be the greatest of rewards.

Yes, Conan! That is what an Iron Hero does.

[Christopher V. Brady]

Paladin CA, Bill? You guys rock.

[Ozymandias]

All I know is I went to the Compleat Strategist in Manhattan to buy it the other day, and not only was it out of stock, I was told the darned thing is out of print. So apparently, it's sold decently enough.

'Cause nothing says sales like going out of print. ;)

[Alvin Frewer]

Without anything new, there's not much new to talk about.

I'm still hoping to one day run it in the Midnight setting, but more and more I'm thinking I'll make an IH-True20 rules conversion. We'll see.

*cough*Adventure!*cough* ;)

Do you mean Spirit of the Century? Because I haven't seen Adventure! mentioned once since that came along, except in a "What would you like to see brought back from Out of Print?" thread.

Besides the lack of support, IH fails at itemization. Gear matters, and if you're not using magic to differentiate between qualities and capabilities of gear then you need to substitute something else.

Itemization and differentiation comes in with the huge amount of feat abilities to choose from. With feat variety even two Hunters will be very different from each other, even if they had identical equipment.

If you still want more items, well there's about 3,000 D&D/d20 game books with items to pick from that are 100% compatible.

[Drake2000]

No matter how much power a character has inherent to him, what he packs for tools & gear always matters just as much.

Maybe in your games, but that's not a universal truth.

[DeadlyUematsu]

Even as a fan of Iron Heroes, I do believe there is much merit to Bradford's argument.

[SuperG]

I think what Mr. Walker is trying to say is the most successful games in the RPG industry have always allowed characters to pick up equiptment and fiddle with points and values to complement their characters.

D&D and Shadowrun are the extreme examples, where equiptment is as vital as the character.

Vampire or the other WoD games are less focused, but you still have details about weapons, magical items, and the like.

Iron Heroes, by ignoring that desire to get cool shit, made a mistake if it was aiming to become a popular game.

Now, I personally disagree. I don't think you need detailed differences between items, since the game provides more than enough difference between any two people using similar gear through feat trees and such. That's not to say I wouldn't have enjoyed a small section with one or two odd metals and a few rules on masterwork items that offered some different advantages based on how things are made, but I don't need them.

Having cool toys is not important when you can do cool stuff. D&D has moved to the point where taking away the cool toys is like amputating limbs - it's in bad taste, crippling, and hated by most players.


Iron Heroes is suffering only because the point man got headhunted. Mark my words, it is the wave of the future.

[The Eye]

There are two issues in this thread, with regards to characters and equipment.

The first is whether or not Iron Heroes is a bad game, because it assumes that characters won't need equipment, and prepares them with natural abilities.

The second is whether or not Iron Heroes is unpopular for the same reason.

And I don't think that most people are really disagreeing. Bradford said that the second point is true; the game's popularity suffered because it made particular assumptions about equipment. I think a number of people took his statements to also mean that issue one is true (i.e. it's a bad game because of this), even though AFAICT he really thinks that IH is a good game, in part due to it's treatment of equipment.

Saying something is a good game doesn't mean it's popular, and saying something is unpopular doesn't mean it's a bad game.

[SuperG]

There are two issues in this thread, with regards to characters and equipment.

The first is whether or not Iron Heroes is a bad game, because it assumes that characters won't need equipment, and prepares them with natural abilities.

The second is whether or not Iron Heroes is unpopular for the same reason.

And I don't think that most people are really disagreeing. Bradford said that the second point is true; the game's popularity suffered because it made particular assumptions about equipment. I think a number of people took his statements to also mean that issue one is true (i.e. it's a bad game because of this), even though AFAICT he really thinks that IH is a good game, in part due to it's treatment of equipment.

Saying something is a good game doesn't mean it's popular, and saying something is unpopular doesn't mean it's a bad game.


Except that as third party projects with support issues go it's kicking a lot of ass, especially given it didn't get publicized that much... I am disputing that it's unpopular.

[MutieMoe]

... I haven't seen a thread on it in a good long while. Just a lull, or was it simply one of the "RPGnet darlings" for awhile?

It's pretty much a complete game, RPG.net discussions often revel in consumerism instead of gaming , in other words what is the latest cool supplement to game line X and how bad people want to get it etc. but it does not mean that games that disappear from the general talk and stop being so called "RPG.net darlings" would not have dedicated fans and games being played.

I relate almost nothing of games I have played to these boards, because writing down gaming stories in what is to me foreign language is rather time consuming affair.

So what do you want to talk about considering Iron Heroes? Shoot!

[GM Victory]

Going with the Midnight - IH conversion off of the top of my head:

I would use the IH core classes with the setting.

I'd see it as Izrador's grip had tightened. All magic is now corrupted after the Shadow's forces had secured control of the Wellspring of Magic.

I think I'd leave the Heroic Paths intact. Dragonblooded and some of the heavy magic influencing/control paths would be gone though.

[Caudex]

There are two issues in this thread, with regards to characters and equipment.

The first is whether or not Iron Heroes is a bad game, because it assumes that characters won't need equipment, and prepares them with natural abilities.

The second is whether or not Iron Heroes is unpopular for the same reason.

And I don't think that most people are really disagreeing. Bradford said that the second point is true; the game's popularity suffered because it made particular assumptions about equipment. I think a number of people took his statements to also mean that issue one is true (i.e. it's a bad game because of this), even though AFAICT he really thinks that IH is a good game, in part due to it's treatment of equipment.

Saying something is a good game doesn't mean it's popular, and saying something is unpopular doesn't mean it's a bad game.
I don't think the second point is true. Games like Vampire, Feng Shui or RPGnet darling Exalted all place an emphasis on various kickass character abilities rather than equipment (although Exalted has a fair amount of kickass equipment too) and I don't see them as being unpopular.

[Gloombunny]

Bradford said that the second point is true; the game's popularity suffered because it made particular assumptions about equipment. I think a number of people took his statements to also mean that issue one is true (i.e. it's a bad game because of this), even though AFAICT he really thinks that IH is a good game, in part due to it's treatment of equipment.

Saying something is a good game doesn't mean it's popular, and saying something is unpopular doesn't mean it's a bad game.
I can see how his first post could be read that way, but not his second... and knowing him as a poster I'm highly disinclined to go with that reading.

[BASHMAN]

... I haven't seen a thread on it in a good long while. Just a lull, or was it simply one of the "RPGnet darlings" for awhile?

Kind of like Spirit of the Century is now, I suppose. About half the threads on here mention it. Maybe in a few months, those too will be gone. I wonder if my FLGS has SOTC so I can see what all the hubbub is about... and check out Iron Heroes too.

[Alvin Frewer]

Going with the Midnight - IH conversion off of the top of my head:

I would use the IH core classes with the setting.

I'd see it as Izrador's grip had tightened. All magic is now corrupted after the Shadow's forces had secured control of the Wellspring of Magic.

I think I'd leave the Heroic Paths intact. Dragonblooded and some of the heavy magic influencing/control paths would be gone though.

That's pretty much exactly how I have it written out so far. Except I don't plan to make magic corrupted and am sticking with Midnight's magic feats. No channeller class, but any the IH classes can forgo focusing in their combat feats to pick up some magic feats at the player's discretion.

I have True Sorcery, but haven't given it a proper read through to see whether the Arcanist rework might make me change my mind and use that magic system to IH-Midnight instead.

[solomoncane]

Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

March 1, 2007 (Milwaukee, Wisc.)—Starting today, the game formerly known as Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes gets a new home Down Under.

Game designer Monte Cook has signed a deal transferring ownership of the Iron Heroes roleplaying product line from his own Malhavoc Press to Australian author and business analyst Adam Windsor. The new owner plans to update the existing products and release new titles through Fiery Dragon Productions.

"I couldn't be happier to pass the Iron Heroes reins to Adam," Monte said, adding that Malhavoc Press always envisioned the line as simply a three-product arc. "But the game has really found an enthusiastic following, and I'm really happy it will continue on through Adam and Fiery Dragon."

Iron Heroes, a variant player's handbook written by Mike Mearls, emphasizes high-octane action fantasy roleplaying. It debuted in August 2005, with two follow-up products appearing in late 2005 and early 2006.

Adam has been involved in the Iron Heroes product line ever since playtesting the game in early 2005. He went on to author such licensed products as Dark Harbor, Blood Storm, and the Iron Heroes Battle Box, all published through Fiery Dragon Productions. For the last year he has moderated the game's message official board forums.

"I've been a huge Iron Heroes fan since the first time I read the book." Adam said, "It's the kind of game that just makes you want to go out and run really cool adventures. As Monte was withdrawing from the RPG market to pursue other projects, I decided to take over the line in order to ensure it received the support and expansion I feel it deserves."

And according to Monte, Adam is the perfect person to direct the future of the product line. "He not only has a great relationship with the fans, he's a serious businessman who can maintain the line's success," Monte said. "From the very beginning, few people were as committed to Iron Heroes as Adam."

Iron Heroes was lauded upon its publication for its unique focus on thrilling low-magic fantasy combat in a roleplaying game. This variant player's handbook presents modular rules subsystems that can be used alongside the standard d20 System Player's Handbook or as a separate game.

PDF editions of existing Iron Heroes titles from Malhavoc and other licensed Iron Heroes publishers will be re-released under the new ownership. An update of the core rulebook's PDF edition, which will include errata and rules clarifications, will be the first new release. Adam also anticipates releasing the Iron Heroes Player's Companion by the end of June, with more products to follow. Physical stock of the Malhavoc Iron Heroes books will go out of print within the next 12 months.

The change in ownership should be seamless for the fans. "Future Iron Heroes releases will no longer bear the 'Monte Cook Presents' label, but I'm committed to presenting the same kind of exciting products that made me love the game to begin with." Adam explained.

For more information about the product line, visit the new Iron Heroes website or join the Iron League official Iron Heroes fan community online.

Malhavoc Press is the publisher of the award-winning The Book of Eldritch Might and Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved and the more recent deluxe Ptolus: City by the Spire. Hallmarks of Malhavoc products include unusual magic, monsters, and evocative elements that go beyond traditional fantasy, as well as a mastery of the d20 System rules. Current Malhavoc Press titles are available in electronic format at the company's website. Print versions are published by Sword & Sorcery™.

Adam Windsor is the author of the Iron Heroes adventures Dark Harbor and Blood Storm, as well as several d20 products through Clockwork Golem Workshop and E.N. Publishing. He has been responsible for official Iron Heroes rules clarifications and errata since shortly after the game's release in 2005.

Fiery Dragon Productions, an official licensee since the line's debut, has published two Iron Heroes adventures and a popular tie-in Battle Box. Since its launch in 2000, the Canadian company has released many fantasy adventures, rules supplements, Counter Collections, wargames, and more. Featuring the distinctive art of popular Brazilian illustrator Claudio Pozas, Fiery Dragon products are known for their imagination and coherence, and are written for people who like to have fun! Visit the FDP website.

[PaladinCA]

That is outstanding news. I look forward to the Iron Heroes line being continued by someone that has released so many good products for it already.

Congratulations to Fiery Dragon.

[Samaritan]

Awesome news! My question is, for those who prefer dead-tree supplements... will the main book see a reprint with errata updates and whatnot (as the PDF is)?

[Kai Tave]

Awesome news! My question is, for those who prefer dead-tree supplements... will the main book see a reprint with errata updates and whatnot (as the PDF is)?

Seconded. It should be known that I would buy such a book in an instant.

[Monkey King]

Awesome news! My question is, for those who prefer dead-tree supplements... will the main book see a reprint with errata updates and whatnot (as the PDF is)?
Lord knows the books could sure use a revision. I love Iron Heroes to death, but I think another factor that may have hurt its popularity is how rough around the edges the rules set was. Last I checked there was a long discussion on the official boards about how to officially revise the Armiger to be a little more playable. Not to mention critiques about the magic system.

This is all stuff that's easily patched by a GM, but some people might not like the extra legwork required. It's very encouraging to see the line picked up by another publisher, though.

[MadCow]

Aww... talk about bad timing. I was just thinking of checking out Mastering Iron Heroes and found out about this, and that it's no longer on the list in both RPGNow and DTRPG. Guess I'll have to wait a bit....

Also, I wonder if those of us who have purchased the core rulebook PDF will receive the revised PDF for free, or at a discount, or... not?

[Capellan]

From the Iron Heroes Update FAQ (http://www.fierydragon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74):

"The revised PDF will be $14.95. Anyone who has purchased, or who purchases a copy of the original PDF before the release of the revised version will be issued with a discount voucher to reduce the cost to only $4.95."

[Capellan]

Since people were asking about it, I figured I'd mention that the Iron Heroes PDF is available for purchase once more, and for only $5.

This is the original PDF. Only the legal text has changed. The PDF-with-errata is expected to be released in 3-4 weeks. It will be priced at $14.95. Anyone who owns the original version of the PDF will get a $10 discount voucher.

And I'll stop now before I become a total shill :)

[PaladinCA]

Since people were asking about it, I figured I'd mention that the Iron Heroes PDF is available for purchase once more, and for only $5.

This is the original PDF. Only the legal text has changed. The PDF-with-errata is expected to be released in 3-4 weeks. It will be priced at $14.95. Anyone who owns the original version of the PDF will get a $10 discount voucher.

And I'll stop now before I become a total shill :)

Oh OH OHHHH. I own the original PDF and hardcopy. How do I go about getting the revised one when it comes out?

[Capellan]

The PDF-with-errata will be available at the same places as the current PDF.

You'll be sent an electronic voucher at whatever e-mail address you used when you purchased the original PDF. Return to the site where you originally bought the PDF, buy the new one, and enter the voucher details. You'll be able to pick up the new PDF for $4.95 instead of the full price of $14.95.

[MadCow]

Well, I received the e-mail from DriveThruRPG this morning about the revised PDF, with coupon code that reduces the price to $5.00.

I've downloaded the PDF but haven't really had time to give it a read yet.

Has anyone else gone through the PDF yet? Any Comments?

[Ken Finlayson]

Has anyone else gone through the PDF yet? Any Comments?

Sorry, can't help you there. There's a discussion (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=324489) of the revised PDF over in the d20/D&D Spotlight, but no one's said more than "it contains the errata".

[MadCow]

Oh darn, I totally forgot about the forum split... *sigh*

[VaticanT]

It was the wrong choice. No matter how much power a character has inherent to him, what he packs for tools & gear always matters just as much. This is not new; it's been that way for 30 years, and to ignore it is folly. It may be intended, but that doesn't make it right.

Games where equipment is not the be all and end all...
...Feng Shui
...Vampire
...A little known game called Call of Cthulhu
to list a few that immediately come to mind. If upgrading you equipment every three sessions is cool for you, great. Personally, I find the way magic gear is built into the character design and balancing process in D&D 3.whatever to be an infuriating aspect of the system, and Iron Heroes attempt to deliberately get away from that was an excellent choice. I can play MMORPG's if I want that kind of thing.

[Geoff Watson]

Iron Heroes wasn't finished. Mearls changed companies before IH was ready, and there are obvious problems with it.

Geoff.

[Christopher V. Brady]

Games where equipment is not the be all and end all...
...Feng Shui
...Vampire
...A little known game called Call of Cthulhu
to list a few that immediately come to mind. If upgrading you equipment every three sessions is cool for you, great. Personally, I find the way magic gear is built into the character design and balancing process in D&D 3.whatever to be an infuriating aspect of the system, and Iron Heroes attempt to deliberately get away from that was an excellent choice. I can play MMORPG's if I want that kind of thing.

I can mention a few other games that don't either, Runequest (All versions) and a personal favourite of mine: Conan D20, which is selling pretty well.

Hell, in CD20 there's no guarantee that you're going to have the same gear you had last game session! And last I heard, CD20 was doing pretty well for Mongoose.

So, I'm sad to say that the 30 year toy collecting tradition is not exactly what all gamers want.

And frankly, I'm with VaticanT, I prefer 'skill' over magical toys to make me the warrior I am, after all, most of the other classes can get away with little to none for a fair while, why can't the 'real' fighting classes?

[Gizmit]

Moved.

[FredH]

... I haven't seen a thread on it in a good long while. Just a lull, or was it simply one of the "RPGnet darlings" for awhile?

All I know is that I was actively planning to learn and run this game, right up until I discovered that the Iron Heroes BattleBox came with eighteen pages of substantive, rules-changing revisions. I want something I can play from the book as is.

[JohnDeHope3]

Do you need the PHB to play IH?

[Christopher V. Brady]

Do you need the PHB to play IH?

Not in the least. It's a stand alone game.

End of Line.

[FredH]

All I know is that I was actively planning to learn and run this game, right up until I discovered that the Iron Heroes BattleBox came with eighteen pages of substantive, rules-changing revisions. I want something I can play from the book as is.

Okay, I'd like to officially and publicly slap my own wrist, eat crow, et cetera for not having read all of the thread first. Am going to go purchase the revised PDF posthaste.

[VaticanT]

Iron Heroes wasn't finished. Mearls changed companies before IH was ready, and there are obvious problems with it.

Geoff.

Oh, I agree. One thing I found was with the profusion of options available, it's almost impossible for a newby to manage. A lot of the rules aren't exactly thought through (like who resists a defensive stunt) and a lot of redundant rolling (like saves against a 1 round -1 penalty to attack, seems like something you could get for free). But the design philosophy is something I could definitely get on board with.