[D&D][Necro] 300: How would you build the Spartans?

[Donald Stone]

I've got some folks who are hyped about 300 and are bugging me to run a game like it. They only really like D&D, and they all wanna be Spartan's. I figure what the hell, I'll give it a go.

Now, first thing, I'm pretty much doing away with magic. There'll be curses and prophecies and such, but no throwing Magic Missiles at each other and no +2 Swords of Cleaving.

Now, my question is, how would you build your average Spartan.

As it stands, the players are going to be the commanders of a small Spartan company. I wanna show that the Spartans are tougher than hell, but I'm not all that sure how to build them.

My current think is that your average Spartan will be about 4-6th level, and the players will have another 3 levels to add to that to help make them a) tougher, and b) a bit more distinct. But when you look at the Spartans from 300, you have guys who wear no armor, but have shields. They work together as a unit incredibly well, are tough to kill, and move around the battlefield well.

I was thinking straight Fighter levels, but that doesn't quite seem to fit. And I'm not sure how to get around the 'hard to kill yet no armor thing'.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[David J Prokopetz]

First off, since the Spartans of 300 are cinematic characters, they'd definitely use the optional "base defence bonus" rules. Does the 3.5E DMG contain those? In any case, that would take care of the problems posed by lack of armour.

[Kasumi]

You really need to look at Iron Heroes. It's a D20 game with pretty much this objective, and it's good.

[Donald Stone]

You really need to look at Iron Heroes. It's a D20 game with pretty much this objective, and it's good.I know. But these guys, while good players, are not up to playing anything not D&D, even if it's still d20.

[Matt.C]

I'll second Kasumi here, Iron Heroes is SPOT ON for this kind of stuff.

It also adds a very nice stunt-system for d20 and gives you lots of room to make their characters distinct, bad ass, yet still armourless.

Grab the pdf, if it's still going cheap. :)

[EDIT] Then don't tell them. :p Just say, that you use a few optional rules to get "the feeling" better. ;)

[Cam Banks]

Make them multiclassed barbarian/fighters. Rely on the hit points and rage and uncanny dodge to explain their legendary toughness. The PCs can take any combination of those two classes, and then add up to three levels of another non-magical class. The scout, rogue, even the knight (he doesn't need to have armor!) classes would work well.

There are a lot of shield feats in various sourcebooks, as well as feats that let you leap and deal additional damage, or charge, or shrug off things. Everybody should have Weapon Focus (shortspear). After that, they get to play how they like.

Expect mass carnage. Allow the PCs to use action points (from the SRD or Unearthed Arcana), maybe even the defense bonus like another poster suggested. Their opponents should, in almost every case, be no greater than 2nd level, maybe even only warriors (instead of fighters). Figure the Persians hope to win with numbers.

Then you can create a handful of NPC leaders of the same level as the PCs for the Persians. The heroes will find themselves mowing through the mooks in order to get to those guys.

Cheers,
Cam

[Broblawsky0]

Tome of Battle is also good.

[JohnBiles]

Two possible suggestions on how to handle the low armor levels:

1) Create a feat chain whereby men working together with large shields can gain a cooperative bonus to armor class. Set that the big shield adds +3 to AC, and then you can also benefit from the big shield of any ally who is flanking you. So if three guys are positioned

A B C

B gains +6 to AC from his two allies and +3 from his own shield. Throw in a +3 AC Bronze Breastplate and he now is AC 22.

A and C only gain +3 from their ally and have AC 19 as a result, still not bad.

Of course, this requires fighting in formation, but that's how Greek style army fighting worked.

The feat chain might go something like:

Improved Shield Use: Add +1 to the AC bonus granted by any shield (So this means big shields will give a +3 bonus)

Shield Formation: You can add the shield bonus from your allies to your own AC so long as you are adjacent, against any foe who attacks from adjacent to your allies, pre-req Improved Shield Use.

So if--

A B C

D E F G

All seven have Shield Formation and Improved Shield Use. A, B, C, and G are on one side, D, E, F on the other.

B attacks E. B is adjacent to D, E, F and E is adjacent to D and F. So E gets the +3 from D's shield and +3 from F's shield, raising his AC of 16 (+3 Bronze Breastplate + 3 for his shield due to Improved Shield Use) by 6 to 22.

E's shield can help F against C because E is adjacent to both C and F, but F is on his own against G.

Conversely, B and G can both help C against F, but only B can help C against E.


You could also add to the chain:

Superior Improved Shield Use, BAB 4+, req. Improved Shield Use, add +2 to the base rating of any shield.

Freely Moving Warrior Method, BAB 4+, Req. Dodge, This feat can only be used by lightly armored warriors, allowing them to designate one foe against which they gain +3 to AC.

Etc, etc.

Basically, build feats which reward Greek style combat.

[Tzeentch]

- If you can get a copy, snag Book of Nine Swords. TONS of buffs to melee - especially the poor, rather pathetic base Fighter class.

- Liberally steal from UA as mentioned already (like the base Defense rules). It's all available in the SRD so you don't even need to buy the book: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedArcana.html (see menu items on the left side).

[Donald Stone]

Basically, build feats which reward Greek style combat.I like that idea.

But maybe simplify it. A Phalanx Combat feat tree, with DC bonus as long as you are in formation.

Heck, I'd be surprised if there isn't a feat something like that already in some kind of book.

[Wretch]

Pretty sure there are "team fighting" feats. Along the lines of getting sneak attack damage when your allies with the feat are adjacent and not necessarily flanking.

Also pretty sure there's one to do coup de gras as a standard action rather than full round. There was a lot of that going on in the movie.

Spring Attack might work to model the way they'd move up to let the next rank finish off guys.

[Shisumo]

I like that idea.

But maybe simplify it. A Phalanx Combat feat tree, with DC bonus as long as you are in formation.

Heck, I'd be surprised if there isn't a feat something like that already in some kind of book.

They're in Complete Warrior and they're called Phalanx Fighting and Formation Expert.

[Keefe the Thief]

Wouldn´t it be easier to build a 5-level PrC (Spartan Citizen) to represent the unique training that makes all the "real" spartans so deadly? You could add special abilities as required.

[OrmStahl]

Wouldn´t it be easier to build a 5-level PrC (Spartan Citizen) to represent the unique training that makes all the "real" spartans so deadly? You could add special abilities as required.

1 Minor diff. Starting as a 0lv char.

[Christopher V. Brady]

Feat:

Defensive Fighting

Prerequisite: +1 Base Attack Bonus

Each level of this feat gives you +2 bonus to defence. This does not stack with armour. Use your armour bonus or your defensive fighting bonus whichever is higher. Shields do stack with this feat. Anything that would cause you to lose your Dexterity bonus prevents you from using your defensive fighting bonus. This feat can be taken multiple times and stacks with itself. A DM may set a maximum number of times this feat can be taken. The usual limit is three.

Hell, I have stolen the IH Base Defense Bonus thing for my home brew.

[randomgamer8466]

I've done a neat Hoplite build this way:

Exotic Weapon: Longspear (like Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword, it lets you wield one with one hand)

Quick Draw

Now when barbarians charge you, they get AoOed by your longspear, and if they make it within 5' of you, you can draw your shortsword as a free action and bring the whack.

If a bunch of Spartans are side-by-side, a lone charger is actually going to get skewered by 3 + longspears because they threaten EVERYTHINGin a 10' radius.

Then I'd go with Shield Specialiization... and I'm definitely in favor of the defensive adjustments from Unearthed Arcana (AC bonus by class and level in place of armor).

[Wolfwood2]

My current think is that your average Spartan will be about 4-6th level, and the players will have another 3 levels to add to that to help make them a) tougher, and b) a bit more distinct. But when you look at the Spartans from 300, you have guys who wear no armor, but have shields. They work together as a unit incredibly well, are tough to kill, and move around the battlefield well.

I was thinking straight Fighter levels, but that doesn't quite seem to fit. And I'm not sure how to get around the 'hard to kill yet no armor thing'.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Is the "no armor" thing really that important to the concept?

If it is, you could just give them Monk wisdom and class bonuses to AC.

[David J Prokopetz]

I've done a neat Hoplite build this way:

Exotic Weapon: Longspear (like Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword, it lets you wield one with one hand)

Quick Draw

Now when barbarians charge you, they get AoOed by your longspear, and if they make it within 5' of you, you can draw your shortsword as a free action and bring the whack.

If a bunch of Spartans are side-by-side, a lone charger is actually going to get skewered by 3 + longspears because they threaten EVERYTHINGin a 10' radius.Reach weapons are nifty that way. If you have at least three characters side-by-side and they all ready for a charge, the dude who charges you has to suck down six attacks, three of which deal double damage.

[Aubri]

I'd honestly go to d20 Modern. It really is D&D with new classes and just a few minor changes, and I think it'd fit a lot better. You're looking at a party of very similar characters to begin with, so the different talent trees and generic base classes will help differentiate them while they can all take the Soldier occupation.
Of course, you'll probably want to swap in D&D weapon groups for firearms, but that shouldn't be bad.
Aside: in D&D I houseruled that Martial Weapon Proficiency comes in 4 flavors, instead of "select one weapon": blades, striking weapons (hammers, axes, clubs and picks), polearms, and bows. (Scythe counts as a polearm, sap as a club, and armor spikes as a blade. Anyone with shield proficiency is proficient with shield bash attacks.)

[WyzardWhately]

Another vote for Iron Heroes. Tell them it's just a book with new classes. that's *close* to the truth.

[JohnB]

Are you looking to emulate the movie heroes closely or the more historical versions? Because historically, they did use armor. They were also quite nasty fellows, not at all what you would expect for defenders of "freedom".

There was an excellent historical fiction novel called Gates of Fire that I recommend to get a feel for their society.

[David Nash]

Wouldn´t it be easier to build a 5-level PrC (Spartan Citizen) to represent the unique training that makes all the "real" spartans so deadly? You could add special abilities as required.

1 Minor diff. Starting as a 0lv char.

Aren't there some racial levels things that you can take from level 1 on, that only last a few levels? Racial Paragon, maybe?

Just do it like that - call it "Cultural Substitution Levels", or whatever.

[Mr Adventurer]

Honestly, I think the simple way is just to use Barbarians as the basic Spartan class. You have a warrior who is faster, stronger, and more savage than any average soldier, with enough skill points to customise, and who prefers lighter armour in any case. At higher levels, feel free to throw in a couple of Fighter levels for the feats.

I would probably use houserules like the Defence Bonus, though.

[Amur_Tiger]

If you want to build the real-deal sort of Spartan then I'd recommend forgetting what you saw in 300 because it will prove quite misleading. Greek hoplites, and thus Spartans would be best equipped in breastplate armor with a large wooden shield and a longspear, handled through monkey grip. The tricky part comes in making this even remotely effective as the primary benefit of having long spears is that it keeps the badguys away from you unless they break or push aside the spear something that's poorly modeled at best in D&D.

[Flannel]

My catch-all answer for this is the same for most of these thought experiments...


"So, first thing, you don't need a big Node..."

and ends with

"Bam, you're rolling ten dice, plus Megas, and you're made of Win"

[BASHMAN]

Dwarven Defenders minus the having to be a dwarf part.

Also, the Spartan Spear, should be a 1h martial weapon, doing d8 dmg, x3 crit. The listed 1H spear is an uttercrap weapon.

[Clark]

You need to give them a reason not to drop their shield and two-hand any weapon they're carrying - "Come back with your shield or on it" doesn't account for double Power Attack bonuses.

This is way over the top for any game but the one you're planning, but the easy way is just declare that for Spartans, Power Attack is doubled when wielding a spear or sword.

Edit: Holy necro, batman!

[Axelius]

Don't forget the PHB II, with a number of useful feats and also a bunch of Teamwork benefits that should fit.

[Gavin Lucan]

There was an excellent historical fiction novel called Gates of Fire that I recommend to get a feel for their society.

It's by Steven Pressfield I cannot recommend it enough - it's fucking incredible and damned funny to boot - see my sig. :)

Even if you don't use the 'historically accurate' angle in your game, it should work wonders at getting the feel of a sense of camaraderie between your soldiers.

[budman]

;)My catch-all answer for this is the same for most of these thought experiments...


"So, first thing, you don't need a big Node..."

and ends with

"Bam, you're rolling ten dice, plus Megas, and you're made of Win"

some ones playing abberant