[D&D] Polymorph thoughts

[Beri]

Apparently there's some errata to Polymorph, and I'm not quite sure on what it is. Right now, though, I'm trying to think of a way to control my group's Wizard, a Transmuter who's gleeful about the potential of Alter Self and Polymorph.
I like the spells - I think it's cool to change form to solve a problem - but I don't like seeing them as long-term buffs with no downside.

Here's what I'm thinking right now. I'll reduce the duration of all Polymorph spells. Alter Self becomes 1 minute/level, instead of 10 minutes. Polymorph is 1 round/level instead of 1 minute. The intent is to make these forms special attacks, bombs that the wizard uses to overcome a problem, rather than just walking around transformed half the time.

Thoughts? Does this harm Polymorph too much, or not enough?

[Silent Wayfarer]

If you're feeling generous, allow polymorph to remain untouched, but rule that when he shapeshifts, he becomes the creature in question, monster manual entry and all, instead of just taking the form of a super powerful giant who happens to be able to fireball peoples' asses in addition to making the party fighter feeli like a pansy.

Or, you could just ban the polymorph spells in the PHB / SRD and use the more recently published ones with the [polymorph] subschool. Those do everything I described, but they spell it out in a per-creature format, and are generally handier than having to riff through monster manuals and do tricky adding. Remember, he's going to be using this a lot - you might want to just save yourself the work.

Basically, just nuke polymorph from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Beri]

If you're feeling generous, allow polymorph to remain untouched, but rule that when he shapeshifts, he becomes the creature in question, monster manual entry and all, instead of just taking the form of a super powerful giant who happens to be able to fireball peoples' asses in addition to making the party fighter feeli like a pansy.

Or, you could just ban the polymorph spells in the PHB / SRD and use the more recently published ones with the [polymorph] subschool. Those do everything I described, but they spell it out in a per-creature format, and are generally handier than having to riff through monster manuals and do tricky adding. Remember, he's going to be using this a lot - you might want to just save yourself the work.

Basically, just nuke polymorph from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Hmm, I saw the new Polymorph subschool, but I wasn't quite sure what to do with it. Is it intended to replace Polymorph/Alter Self? Is there anywhere where it's laid out what to remove and what to keep?

And I agree, it's really the fact that the wizard gets a gargantuan body AND the ability to cast spells that's troubling.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Hmm, I saw the new Polymorph subschool, but I wasn't quite sure what to do with it. Is it intended to replace Polymorph/Alter Self? Is there anywhere where it's laid out what to remove and what to keep?

They printed the Polymorph subschool first in PHB2 and then in Complete Mage. PHB2 applied it to ALL polymorph spells; however, the version of the [polymorph] subschool in Complete Mage specifically excluded the PHB spells from its text, meaning that they do function as written (which is to say, they're broken).

As for what they let you retain, you can approximate it to "You become this creature for the duration of the spell". The actual wall of text goes into what exactly you keep and don't keep (You definitely lose all spellcasting, SLAs, supernaturals, but you retain your feats, etc.) and individual spell descriptions tell you what special abilities the creature has. However, to simplify everything, just replace his character sheet with a photocopy of the entry of whatever monster he turned into.

And I agree, it's really the fact that the wizard gets a gargantuan body AND the ability to cast spells that's troubling.

Fighter-types start getting overshadowed around level 5; no need to make them feel even worse when Wozley Milksop the Incontinent Mage suddenly turns into a giant and goes fee-fi-fo-fum and stomps the monster that the fighter was dealing with, and lights his tree-trunk cigar with a scorching hands.

Anyway, a more genteel solution would be to draw up a social contract with him; "we'll use the spell as written, as long as you don't abuse it".

[Fade]

Fighter-types start getting overshadowed around level 5; no need to make them feel even worse when Wozley Milksop the Incontinent Mage suddenly turns into a giant and goes fee-fi-fo-fum and stomps the monster that the fighter was dealing with, and lights his tree-trunk cigar with a scorching hands.
How does the low-hp low-ac wizard avoid becoming a giant-ka-bob?

[Silent Wayfarer]

How does the low-hp low-ac wizard avoid becoming a giant-ka-bob?

Runs away until he reaches level 5, or whenever the first save-or-else comes up and gives him a chance to CDG the fighter with a scythe.

[Reynard]

The hoo-ha started because WotC realized that with each new Monster Manual, the polymorphing wizard was getting more and more powerful witha wider range of creatures to change into. One simple fix for tis is to allow only core monsters (and perhaps allowing a monster that the party has met, defeated and the polymorpher has had a chance to study).

The Hypertext SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) seems to have the most recent errata from Wizards, which is collected in this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589497) on the WotC boards.

Basically, pick a form that can talk, has limbs and has really cool extraordinary abilities (but not supernatural or spell-like ones).

[Aaron Smith]

The solution that I came up with was to return the 'save or die' function to the spell. If you polymorph someone, you need to make a system shock sort of save, and then a will save. If you fail the first, you die, if you fail the second, you become a NMPC.

It's had a remarkable effect on people willing to undergo the transformations.

[Cardiac]

Just make it so the spell doesn't affect his clothing or other belongings (if he transforms into a giant he will rip our of his clothes like the hulk, etc...) AND enforce spell requirements; paws are no substitute for hands; and how are giant hands supposed to manipulate items from his normal-size spell component pouch (assuming it doesn't rip off in the process)?

Also remember the inherent weaknesses of certain forms, and how his enemies would react (a giant is a much bigger and higher-priority target).

[angelfromanotherpin]

Rich Burlew, of Order of the Stick fame, wrote a pretty comprehensive homebrew solution to the Polymorph problem. Check it out:

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html

and

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/PbpHATjPkec7E82kEmo.html

[Beri]

Based on the suggestion of 'paws aren't hands', I'm thinking of tinkering with arcane failure when shapeshifted. When you learn spells, you learn them for a humanoid of your size and skill. Any changes require you to quickly alter the spell on the fly.

Natural Armor: +5% if the creature has any armor bonus, +5% for every +3 after that.
Natural Attack: +5% if the creature has claws, tentacles, or anything else that isn't hands. +10% if the creature has no fine manipulators whatsoever.
Different Type: +5% if the creature has a different subtype, +10% if it has a different type.
Different Size: +5% for every size category difference between yourself and your new form.
Possible further penalties as determined by the DM.

That gives something like 20% arcane failure rate for the old 'alter self into Troglyodyte' trick.
Let's see...a Hill Giant would be 25%. Troll is 30%. That seems to be about what I'm looking for - it still allows spellcasting, but I know that characters are always terribly scared of anything random.

[LogicNinja]

The only way to really and truly fix Polymorph would be to limit options. Take a look at the Druid shapeshift variant in the PHB II: no matter what your forms look like, you get one of several fixed sets of bonuses. That would fix polymorph.

[Wolfwood2]

The only way to really and truly fix Polymorph would be to limit options. Take a look at the Druid shapeshift variant in the PHB II: no matter what your forms look like, you get one of several fixed sets of bonuses. That would fix polymorph.

Indeed. The current trend is to have one spell per shape. So instead of Polymorph, you have 'Trollshape'. It turns you into a troll, and you get the advantages of being a troll, but it's not a swiss army spell that can turn you into the right form for any job.

[Colin Fredericks]

"Some" errata to Polymorph. Ha. Six or seven successive errata to the spell since the beginning of 3rd edition. It's so problematic they're practically writing it out of the game entirely until they can come up with a fix. See the <a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a">design & development</a> column from around this time last year. The Rich Burlew links are also good stuff.

In short, the whole topic is a perfectly sensible total pain in the butt. I agree with the idea of giving fixed effects, or perhaps something variable within a particular range. Perhaps something like, "get a total of +10 points to spread around your attributes, with no more than +5 in each."

--Colin

[Beri]

Yeah, let's just nix the whole thing, like their official campaign did. No Alter Self, no Polymorph, etc. I like the stuff like sudden transformations into trolls or displacer beasts - that's what I wanted Polymorph to be all along.

So, that's Polymorph, and that seems to be the big one. Any other open-ended, ill-defined spells I ought to know about?

(Oh, this player has one other silly idea, too. Summon Monster, summon a Lantern Archon, have it use Continual Flame on a bunch of sticks, sell them for 100GP each as Everburning Torches. I definitely have some plans to shoot that one down, but I'm interested in your ideas, too!)

[Unferth]

(Oh, this player has one other silly idea, too. Summon Monster, summon a Lantern Archon, have it use Continual Flame on a bunch of sticks, sell them for 100GP each as Everburning Torches. I definitely have some plans to shoot that one down, but I'm interested in your ideas, too!)

That used to work in 3.0, but they tweaked the summoning spells in 3.5 - now any non-instantaneous spells cast by summoned creatures expire when the summoning spell ends.

It's in the general rules for spells with the Summoning keyword, in the Magic Overview section for the Conjuration school.

[Deviant Juvenile]

Only one restriction is needed for polymorph, IMHO, and that's you have to seen it firsthand and seen how the thing 'works' IE, having fought and defeated it(not necessarily alone).

It's a powerful spell, but with that restriction, it also requires effort from the caster to have encountered the creature, either by lucking across one or going out and hunting one down.

If you really want to restrict it, limit the wizard to a list of forms no greater than his Int modifier, with the option to 'forget' a form in place of a newly encountered one. You can require the wizard to choose to forget a form on the first round of combat, or else he can't get a good enough study of the creature.

[Eric Tolle]

"Some" errata to Polymorph. Ha. Six or seven successive errata to the spell since the beginning of 3rd edition. It's so problematic they're practically writing it out of the game entirely until they can come up with a fix. See the <a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a">design & development</a> column from around this time last year. The Rich Burlew links are also good stuff.

Which is a pity- one of the classic iconic mage schticks is turning oneself or someone else into a another creature. I mean, what's the point of being an evil overlord if you can't turn into a giant snake?

I'm actually not sure what some of the overpowered creatures from the SrD are: mostly I hear about weird critters from some sourcebook or something that I would never have heard of. I'm also wondering what other power they will decide is problematic form mages: "Teleport lets mages get into and out of trouble too quickly. Lets ban it."

[Beri]

Well, here's the easiest example that this player came up with. Alter Self into a Troglyodyte. He can do it at level 3, and gains +6 natural armor bonus and natural attacks. That kicks his AC up to 19 (16 Dex), or higher if he wears any armor. It lasts for 30 minutes and has no downside whatsoever that I could find.

Now, that's not exactly the apocalypse, but it is genre-breaking. This wizard can stand toe-to-toe with a fighter in full plate mail and have about the same AC. A Troglyodyte is CR 1, not a rare creature in any way, and is in the corebook and SRD.

Oh, thanks for the tip on Continual Flame, by the way.

[Malabolg]

A suggestion, that might save a fair bit of time, and avoids the chance of irritating your player by stomping on his fun.

http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewforum?forum=1

Check the stickied threads. Frank Trollman and K have done base fightin' classes that are designed to keep up with well-played primary spellcasters and rogues as useful members of a party at any level.

If your non-spellcaster, non-rogue players used those classes. Mr. Turns-Into-Monsters will fit in much better.

[andreww]

Only one restriction is needed for polymorph, IMHO, and that's you have to seen it firsthand and seen how the thing 'works' IE, having fought and defeated it(not necessarily alone).
This only works until your players start summoning, planar binding or gating in monsters to study.

Personally if I was to run D&D again I would overhaul the Polymorph tree back to the scouting/inflitration/utility spell I remember it being rather than the Wizards best ever buff.

Make alter self purely cosmetic changes but boost its duration.

Make Polymorph last one hour per level and restrict it to small or medium sized normal non templated animals with equipment being absorbed.

Make a higher level version which allows you to change shapes during the duration (probably level 6).

Remove Polymorph any Object and Shapechange as irretrievably broken.

Personally I dislike the "make every creature a spell" route as it is yet another kick in the teeth to the sorceror.

[Jon Chung]

Personally I dislike the "make every creature a spell" route as it is yet another kick in the teeth to the sorceror.

The Sorcerer already gets screwed due to the basic PHB spell list being essentially written for wizards - most of them are very specific effects, designed to do only one thing and to do it reasonably well.

[andreww]

The Sorcerer already gets screwed due to the basic PHB spell list being essentially written for wizards - most of them are very specific effects, designed to do only one thing and to do it reasonably well.
You issed out them also being screwed by most PrC requirements.

That isnt a reason to screw them even further.

[hackmastergeneral]

The hoo-ha started because WotC realized that with each new Monster Manual, the polymorphing wizard was getting more and more powerful witha wider range of creatures to change into. One simple fix for tis is to allow only core monsters (and perhaps allowing a monster that the party has met, defeated and the polymorpher has had a chance to study).

The Hypertext SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) seems to have the most recent errata from Wizards, which is collected in this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589497) on the WotC boards.

Basically, pick a form that can talk, has limbs and has really cool extraordinary abilities (but not supernatural or spell-like ones).

Thats the way we handled it - you could change into anything common, anything else you had to actually see the monster/creature in question and study it. For templated creatures (Dire, Fiendish, etc), you just had to see one, study it, and know what the difference was from the base creature, and you could extrapolate that to other creatures you knew.

Our group took a week off once in Epic so that the fighter with a mask of (I don't remember, it was an epic item and he could turn himself into anything) and the druid could study the Tarrasque we had just killed. So, we could bust out TWO Tarrasques if need be. The DMs head nearly exploded.

[mindstalk]

Which is a pity- one of the classic iconic mage schticks is turning oneself or someone else into a another creature. I mean, what's the point of being an evil overlord if you can't turn into a giant snake?


Yeah. As a kid I read the Prydain books. Later I read AD&D 2e, and classified Arawn Death-Lord as a lich with shapechange. Pretty cool. But now shapechange lasts 10 minutes/level... not so cool.

Actually, looking at Osric, Polymorph and Shapechange were never that long-lasting. No Ged flying across oceans in this magic system.

Similarly, that argument for "you don't need spells greater than 5th level" includes immortality through a magical soul-receptable, aka magic jar. Which it was cool to recognize in Record of Lodoss War. But now magic jar lasts an hour per level. A friend argued you could keep on preparing and re-casting it before it expired, which I'm not sure would work well for that particular spell logically, but anyway I think it'd be simpler to just say that long-duration spells tie up a spell slot.

I just dabble in D&D, to be honest, but I get the idea the magic's more about (somewhat balanced) combat than really epic fantasy effects. Or even traditional spell effects: half the witches of Earth could change shape into something, but a wizard can cast 9th level spells like wish but not be able to take a particular form for long. Despite being able to change someone *else* permanently with Baleful Polymorph!

[Moonstone Spider]

I hope the next DnD edition includes a fairly simple fix to a lot of the problems:

HD=CR=ECL

If creatures always have HD equal to CR, there won't be any 1HD enemies running around with 30 points of natural armor, ripe for polymorph abuse. It won't fix everything but it'll help a lot and fix the whole mess of level adjustment as well.

I don't like the idea of every monster being a different spell, but I could see each class of monster being a different one, polymorph into giant, polymorph into animal, and polymorph into aberration, for instance.

[vitus979]

I'm actually not sure what some of the overpowered creatures from the SrD are: mostly I hear about weird critters from some sourcebook or something that I would never have heard of. I'm also wondering what other power they will decide is problematic form mages: "Teleport lets mages get into and out of trouble too quickly. Lets ban it."

Most Polymorphs aren't particularly for the book mage. Where they really get ugly is Gish Wizards/Sorcerers or Psi Warriors or some other combination caster/fighter turning into something like a Stone Giant (since you were asking for something from Core material).

27 STR, 15 DEX, 19 CON, Large Size, +11 Natural Armor. All that from one spell.

[Nelzie]

One fix is to only allow the Wizard to polymorph into something he/she has previously studied; such as creatures the party has already faced or from the wizard having access to a library containing detailed information about a particular creature.

Example:

A Wizard, newly able to cast Polymorph: "I cast Polymorph and turn into a 12-HeadedHydra!"

DM: "How? You've never seen any hydra, nor have you studied anything about them."

Wizard: "It's assumed. After all, we DID go to the Library of Kazak-Ior, filled with the unending lore of the world..."

DM: "Yeah, where you specifically stated that you were seeking information directly relating to the two spells you wanted your character to have. You never mentioned being interested in seeking out information about the monsters of the world. ...and no, you couldn't have 'accidentally' come across that as those books and notes were in a different wing of the library that you chose not to enter, the Druid went there, as did the Ranger..."

Wizard: "Fine. I transform into a Dragon Turtle!"

DM: "Excellent choice. 'Quickly recalling the terrible ferocity of the dreaded Dragon Turtle that nearly destroyed the party just a scant month ago, Dizlellicus grows to enormous size, let's out a ferocious roar and now towers over the battle!' The Dark Lord's army cowers in fear at the might of Dizlellicus. What does the rest of the party do?"

[John_C]

As another option, give us 9 different Polymorphs spells...one for each level, just like Summon Monster. And put a handful of different forms on each list. At first level, maybe something like....

Wolf
Kobold
Dire Rat
Eagle

...or, I dunno, maybe some GOOD choices. But you get the idea.