Top 10 Best for Magic Users

[Greg]

The top ten best games for being a magic user in. In no particular order:

1. Mage. Because magic can do anything.
2. Ars Magica. Because magic can do anything apart from mess with the moon. (Leave it alone - it doesn't belong to you!)
3. Call of Cthluhu. Because the unspeakable thing that eats your mage's head once your spell is case will be a really cool unspeakable thing.
4. A game using the GURPS Standard Magic System. For a mechanical magic system, there are lots of cool spells, and you can specialize in the desired colleges to exactly the degree you feel like.
5. A game using the GURPS Ritual Magic system. Because the system is flexible, evocate, and summoning things with rituals is cool.
6. Sorcerer. Because summoning things with rituals is cool. This game has a beautiful feel to it, and realy uncourages the treatment of weird spirits as individuals with personalitites.
7. Kult. Because its so black and nasty.
8-10. The three best games for spots 8-10. Stop hassling me or I'll cast Otto's Irrisistable Nose.

Worst game to play a Magic User: Traveller. You can have the robe and the hat, but no powers. You are a sad little man and will never have a girlfriend.

[Epoch]

I'll put D&D3 in the number 8 spot, because:

1. I can now create artificers with the Wizard rules.

2. I can now create a big, blonde, unbelievably handsome, incredibly stupid man who can cast a ton of fireballs using the Sorceror rules.

[Professor Phobos]

1. Unknown Armies.
2. Unknown Armies.
3. Call of Cthulhu.
4. Pendragon
5. GURPS Cabal's Hermetic Magic Rules
6. Talislanta's was cool.
7. Elric's was cool.
8. Deadlands
9. Feng Shui.
10. Um.

[Greg]

Originally posted by Professor Phobos
1. Unknown Armies.
2. Unknown Armies.
3. Call of Cthulhu.
4. Pendragon
5. GURPS Cabal's Hermetic Magic Rules
6. Talislanta's was cool.
7. Elric's was cool.
8. Deadlands
9. Feng Shui.
10. Um.

Care to say why? Btw, good call on Feng Shui!

Greg

[Marius B]

1: Fantasy HERO. Because PC mages always end up with a very colorful spell selection.
2: Ars Magica. Because you can do anything short of pulling down the moon.
3: Mythus. Because you get to have a spell for every conceivable situation and then some.
4: Palladium FRPG because your 1st level wizard will be able to cast Blinding Flash about 100 times per day.
5: Tunnels and Trolls. Take That, You Fiend!
6: D&D3. Buttloads of cool spells.
7: Darkurthe Legends. For much the same reasons as HERO.
8: Maelstrom. Because you can do anything.
9: The Conan RPG. Because it's so dirt simple and freeform and mages get cool flaws.
10: Mage. Because you'd be able to do everything if you were actually powerful enough to do anything.

Cheers,
M.

[Blackberry]

Rolemaster - So many choices, and a good mage can flatten any opponent in a shot or two (love those K electrical criticals!)

GURPS standard magic - By the time you know any good spells, you've got so many lesser spells that you can pretty much do anything

Hero - You can do anything, literally... and that "Destroy the World" spell only costs a few points as a Multipower slot!

AD&D/D&D3 - Once you get to that magical 3rd level, you're a death machine

RuneQuest - Leaving out RQ3 sorcery, anyone with a good set of battlemagic and rune magic can waste an army; including RQ3 sorcery, you can make your "Waste Army" spell permanent and just go around blowing down armies.

[NPC Rory]

1. Castle Falkenstein -

Brilliantly colourful card-reading ritual system; where a spell has a nominated target number and a 'suit', with each suit representing a metaphysical aspect. You cast a spell when you accumulate enough cards of the named suit that adds up to the required target number. However, you also take into account the number of other suits accumlated....which can lead to some..... er..... interesting side effects.

2. Mage: The Ascension -

Revolutionary at the time when it was originally released, as it juxtaposes an infinite number of contrasting paradigms into one coherant system - which can produce an unlimited variety of effects - , and then couches it all into an evocative, but approachable, philosophical proposition.

3. Kult -

Goes as close as one could allow into real world occult beliefs and practices, twists it all about for gameability - and manages to hold the whole thing together enough without driving the players and GM insane!

4. Ars Magica -

The best game in the world in terms of attention to detail, and it's magic system is the most easily identifiable proof of this. Simple, elegant, but with no stone left unturned as to the possibilty of including -any- magical element in a historical/fantasy game. The historical aspect of the magic is brought sharply into focus with 'The Mysteries' and 'Kabbalah' supplements.

5. Conspiracy X -

Still the best 'psychic' system around, using the central gimmic of using Zener Cards....just like real psychic investigaters do! This, however, doesn't disguise the fact that they put a lot of really good research into the 'Shadows of the Mind' supplement and made it all fun to play.

6. Amber Diceless Roleplaying -

Lots of really powerful, yet imaginative magic to be bid for in the PC's Auction when characters are generated. The idea of 'hanging spells' being the best rationalisation for the bizzare old DnD concept of 'forgetting' pre-learned spells when they've been cast, that I've yet come across. A good forerunner to Mage, as the magical systems really sucked you in, and made you think.

7. Unknown Armies -

Explained it's magic through three central principles....and then let's rip! Allows creative players with a sense of irony to take the piss out of reality!

8. Pendragon -

....once they finally got round to adding it. A much simpler, but still evocative and well researched system for medieval magic than that provided in Ars Magica. Useful for those people who like the authenticity of medieval magic, but don't like all the book-keeping. Completes an undeniably beautiful game.

9. The Whispering Vault -

Dark creatures of magic, get to summon even darker squidgy things that ooze and creep. The style is in the description.

10. Magic: The Gathering -

...well...y'know....coz!

[sben]

My other choices (Ars Magica, Unknown Armies, and Sorcerer) have been mentioned, but don't forget Dying Earth, for three reasons: (1) the spell names ("The Most Excellent Prismatic Spray"), (2) the weird weird feel of the spells, and (3) 'cause archmages have to browbeat/cajole/plead with their recalcitrant sandestins to do stuff.

[andrew_kenrick]

Unknown Armies!

The charge system is such a wonderful games mechanic! As are the spells themselves! And the schools! Pornomancy!Exclamationmancy!

Maybe its bed time...

Andrew!

[NPC Whymme]

* The Mysteries for Ars Magica. Brings a real historic feel to the Art in the game.

* GURPS Cabal. Brilliant system that adds a feel of 'real' hermetic magic to a game. Fits with more systems than just GURPS.


Whymme

[Damina]

I like Mage, but UA's magick system is simpler. However, I don't much like the schools of magick in UA, they seem like a cheap attempt to rip off Traditions/Conventions and paradigms and make them original. They could work if the schools they gave were more... sensible. I mean, pornomancy? Dipsomancy??? WTF? How half-baked! What about older schools of magick (I doubt many Ancient Egyptian mages used mechanomancy). And cliomancy is just stupid. They should've stuck with paradigms and just renamed them.

[Sangrolu]

1) Ars Magica - It's ABOUT mages, fer cripes sake. Neat spontaneous casting system.

2) D&D (whatever edition) - Spells. Lots and lots of spells. Neat spells. Spells that you can aspire to cast as a PC someday (unlike GURPS magic and warhammer, which have some nasty spells in the books that you well never cast as a reasonable PC.)

3) Hero System - You can make any spell, any effect you like. You can tweak you mage to any flavor you like -- from slotlike D&D casting, exhaustion, a pool of personal power, batteries, whatever.

4) Fantasy Wargaming - Okay, the game is unplayable, I know. But the magic system was the original "do anything" magic system. You could summon the whole elemental plane if you wanted. You would be unlikely to make the roll, but the rules are there. And you can make yourself a virtual deity.

[Jim DelRosso]

Originally posted by Damina
I like Mage, but UA's magick system is simpler. However, I don't much like the schools of magick in UA, they seem like a cheap attempt to rip off Traditions/Conventions and paradigms and make them original. They could work if the schools they gave were more... sensible. I mean, pornomancy? Dipsomancy??? WTF? How half-baked! What about older schools of magick (I doubt many Ancient Egyptian mages used mechanomancy). And cliomancy is just stupid. They should've stuck with paradigms and just renamed them.

Actually, one of the well-defined goals of the UA magic system was to drop all the "standard" paradigms in favor of new systems that were reflections of current human conciousness. It's also very clear that most of the older magic used to work... but as human consciousness evolved, the way magic worked evolved with it. So, the ancient Egyptians didn't use any of the current magic, though some of their magic might have been based on similar themes in human consciousness. This tie to modern humanity, along with several other factors, makes UA one of the best systems for mages. Especially cliomancers. ;)

If the current schools aren't your thing, that's fine. I find them to be well though through and very workable, but YMMV. I don't think calling them a rip off of Mage Traditions is accurate, though: not only do the two types of groups serve very different purposes in their respective games, but they are different pretty much from the ground up. A pornomancer doesn't really have that much in common with a Cultist in terms of how they view magic; neither does a dipsomancer.

OK, I realize I'm in danger of hijacking this perfectly good thread and turning it into yet another "does UA suck or rock" thread. So I'll stop now. Sorry.

[Varkias]

Originally posted by Damina
I like Mage, but UA's magick system is simpler. However, I don't much like the schools of magick in UA, they seem like a cheap attempt to rip off Traditions/Conventions and paradigms and make them original. They could work if the schools they gave were more... sensible. I mean, pornomancy? Dipsomancy??? WTF? How half-baked! What about older schools of magick (I doubt many Ancient Egyptian mages used mechanomancy). And cliomancy is just stupid. They should've stuck with paradigms and just renamed them.

There's a reason UA's magic is post-modern magic.

Mage's magic system annoys me. "Here, we'll give you these paradigms that are based on pre-existing real-world/literary magic systems, but they'll all technically use the same system that we've come up with, where the only real difference is what you're saying you're using as a focus. Please ignore the fact that it's all really one paradigm painted 10 different ways."

I find that I have to keep the setting divisions in mind too much when coming up with a character's 'paradigm'.

[Blaque]

Okay, the magic system, in of itself, is very syste. Learn the appropriate Sorcery Charm, spend the Essence and Willpower, watch things go to hell. The thing that is cool is that any sort of Exalted can learn most sorts of Sorcery (Terrestrials sorta get screwed on this), and the spells are just very cinimatic and cool.

I mean, which is more interesting, Magic Missile or Fireball? Or would Death of Obsidian Butterflies, Ice Hornets, Flight of the Brilliant Raptor, or Flying Guillotine seem more itneresting for ya?

And even though it is powerful, it is taxing as all hell, which helps. But after all the work of getting Solar Circle Sorcery, the fact taht you can change so much in the world would just be cool. I can imagine the way oen can completley change the world single-handedly with a single use of Demon of the Third Circle.

[eyebeams]

Unknown Armies and Mage have fundamentally different premises. Both interest me. UA2 is going to have some older magical styles, perhaps carrying on the vague Ars Magica references that three games (Mage, UA and OtE) have in common.

Makes me think an alternate setting with all three would be peachy.

[NPC Rory]

>>There's a reason UA's magic is post-modern magic.<<

Actually - due to the three defined 'Laws of Magick' and the structured design of each school - UA's system isn't actually very post-modern from a literal point of view.

>>Mage's magic system annoys me. "Here, we'll give you these paradigms that are based on pre-existing real-world/literary magic systems, but they'll all technically use the same system that we've come up with, where the only real difference is what you're saying you're using as a focus. Please ignore the fact that it's all really one paradigm painted 10 different ways."<<

Well, the cleverness of it is that it manages to integrate all these different paradigms within the same overall _system_ which is never-the-less presented in very free-form broad strokes which give a lot of leverage towards personal interpretation.

Systematically, if only in a thematic and superficial way, Mage's system is probably more post-modern than the UA system.

>>I find that I have to keep the setting divisions in mind too much when coming up with a character's 'paradigm'.<<

This depends on the way you play it. Paradigm should be prioritised over everything else, really, if you want Mage to work well as a game. The system is of secondary importance......and the background leads to so much of a wild variety of interpretation that it's best to not even go there.......

[Greg]

Actually, one of the well-defined goals of the UA magic system was to drop all the "standard" paradigms in favor of new systems that were reflections of current human conciousness.


How has that been done? Why are dipsomancers, pornomancers and cliomancers a reflection of current human consciousness, but not past human consciousness. Why aren't religious miracle workers, scientific magi and nationalism-mancers reflections of current human consciousness?


This tie to modern humanity, along with several other factors, makes UA one of the best systems for mages. Especially cliomancers. ;)


What is so modern about historians?


OK, I realize I'm in danger of hijacking this perfectly good thread and turning it into yet another "does UA suck or rock" thread. So I'll stop now. Sorry.

I don't see this as a hijack. We're talking about what magic systems are cool here - this seems very much on topic.

[Flower of December]

Originally posted by NPC Rory
Well, the cleverness of it is that it manages to integrate all these different paradigms within the same overall _system_ which is never-the-less presented in very free-form broad strokes which give a lot of leverage towards personal interpretation.

Systematically, if only in a thematic and superficial way, Mage's system is probably more post-modern than the UA system.


But I never thought Mage's system did much for describing the Mage themes of magic being about the mage's will and paradigm. The system is all about the effects of magic and ignores any causes of it. My house rules threw out the spheres and grafted on Ghost Light as the new magic system.

[Greg]

But I never thought Mage's system did much for describing the Mage themes of magic being about the mage's will and paradigm. The system is all about the effects of magic and ignores any causes of it.

Wow - that struck me as the heart of the system. Is it possible that you gained this impression through playing under a G.M. who wasn't interested in those features, or did you get them directly from the books?

Or perhaps it is the fact that that the causes of magic are to be detailed through roleplaying rather than being hard-wired in the mechanics that you don't like.

[NPC Rory]

Actually, this is quite a hotly debated issue (at times) in the Mage forums - that of personalising the magic system through alternative Sphere's. So, for example, an individual mage may choose to study the (alternative) Spheres of Motion, Light and Fate - rather than the one's given in cannon.

However, this would really have to be an advanced optional rule (ie fit for a supplement) as the game is already complex enough for a beginner to grasp as it stands. It is a rule that 0I have suggested they make 'officially' optional, so it may happen - you never know!

The other method, and the one that is generally used in cannon, is simply through a matter of altering the language and names of the Spheres depending on the paradigm used. So again, for example a Mage may choose the *nomenclature* of Motion, Light and Fate......but in terms of the rules, actually be using Time, Forces and Entropy, and so on. The more elaborate the name given, the better it reflects the paradigm.

But, as I said before, the most important thing that should be stressed is the all-engrossing paradigm. If this is well roleplayed and A-Good-Idea-That-Is-Fun-To-Play, then a good ST and player ought to be trying to mold the rules to fit it - and not the other way round.

[Professor Phobos]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Professor Phobos
1. Unknown Armies.
2. Unknown Armies.
3. Call of Cthulhu.
4. Pendragon
5. GURPS Cabal's Hermetic Magic Rules
6. Talislanta's was cool.
7. Elric's was cool.
8. Deadlands
9. Feng Shui.
10. Um.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Care to say why? Btw, good call on Feng Shui!

Greg



Well, I love Unknown Armies magick system for a number of reasons- it's simple, it's flexible, and it's adaptable to almost all purposes, (even old school magick). And the given magick schools and such are a lot of fun, and very refreshing to see Magick evolving with society like everything else. I also like how the pre-conceived baggage about adepts is pretty reasonable- they've got to be obsessed with the magick, which tends to make 'em pretty crazy. Meaning one dipsomancer can be out for revenge, another for personal power, and a third for mystic enlightenment, instead of all three being out of mystic enlightenment.

Call of Cthulhu is simple, fast, evocative of the setting, and...well...good.

Pendragon is evocative of the setting, simple, and fast.

GURPS Cabal's rules are easily adaptable to UA's system, as I don't use GURPS but need a good set of "Old-School" magic rules, for when I'm not running Unknown Armies.

Talislanta was evocative of the setting, simple, and fast.

Elric's was simple, fast, and evocative of the setting.

Deadlands is....not simple, not fast, and not always evocative of the setting. But it's certainly entertaining.

Feng Shui was simple, fast, and evocative of the setting...(Not a big fan of Feng Shui, but the magic was good)

The magick rules found in "Um" are some of the best.

I missed the Mage debate, but I don't really like the magick rules found in the system, for a lot of reasons. Vague, and extremely useless. Paradigm seems a patch to cover up a bland, generic, un-magical system. It would have worked far, far, far better if they simple detailed a basic system with individual "Type Of Magic" modifications on it (Like how Talislanta did it). Specific rules for paradigms that work. Also, technomagic is lame. Very lame. If the game has a "reason vs. emotion" theme manifested in "science vs. magic", why the heck would Science BE magic? If it's the same thing, why would the Technocracy's magic be evil and oppressive, and the Tradition's so uplifting to the human soul? Which counteracts various and assorted realism checks- it's not like ancient magic systems were all fun-loving and happy go lucky. It's also very, very limiting- I don't want all my "traditional" magic to be battles for mystic enlightenment against an Evil Technological Conspiracy. What if I want a band of undead Incan drug runners? Can't do it in Mage.

[Flower of December]

Originally posted by NPC Rory
Actually, this is quite a hotly debated issue (at times) in the Mage forums - that of personalising the magic system through alternative Sphere's. So, for example, an individual mage may choose to study the (alternative) Spheres of Motion, Light and Fate - rather than the one's given in cannon.

However, this would really have to be an advanced optional rule (ie fit for a supplement) as the game is already complex enough for a beginner to grasp as it stands. It is a rule that 0I have suggested they make 'officially' optional, so it may happen - you never know!

The other method, and the one that is generally used in cannon, is simply through a matter of altering the language and names of the Spheres depending on the paradigm used. So again, for example a Mage may choose the *nomenclature* of Motion, Light and Fate......but in terms of the rules, actually be using Time, Forces and Entropy, and so on. The more elaborate the name given, the better it reflects the paradigm.

But, as I said before, the most important thing that should be stressed is the all-engrossing paradigm. If this is well roleplayed and A-Good-Idea-That-Is-Fun-To-Play, then a good ST and player ought to be trying to mold the rules to fit it - and not the other way round.

The alternate shperes my group ended up using were emotional rather than effects based. Roll sphere dice equal to whatever emotion is fueling your lust for results.

The traditions had sphere's like "lust," "fear," "compassion," etc. while the Conventions had spheres like "curiosity" and "protective instinct."

[Greg]

I missed the Mage debate, but I don't really like the magick rules found in the system, for a lot of reasons. Vague, and extremely useless. Paradigm seems a patch to cover up a bland, generic, un-magical system.


I wouldn't call it a patch, although it is true that the rules don't *give* you the flavor you need. The idea is that you are supplied with a universal magic system but can only use it insofar as you can make it fit within your paradigm through creative roleplaying. Not for everyone, but the whole idea is to emphasise flavor, not use flavor as a gloss.


It would have worked far, far, far better if they simple detailed a basic system with individual "Type Of Magic" modifications on it (Like how Talislanta did it). Specific rules for paradigms that work.


That would tend to limit universality, though. Also, many magical traditions are going to have very complex rules about what is alright and what isn't. Consider Christian miracles. How do you reduce that to a set of rules? Now, let me admit, Mage doesn't handle miracles perfectly, since a Celestial Chorus mage will still be limited by their spheres, but at least the sytem is highly flexable.


Also, technomagic is lame. Very lame. If the game has a "reason vs. emotion" theme manifested in "science vs. magic", why the heck would Science BE magic?


It might be better put as science vs. the rest of magic.


If it's the same thing, why would the Technocracy's magic be evil and oppressive, and the Tradition's so uplifting to the human soul?


Damn good question. It my games of Mage, things aren't so simple, but that hardly defends the game. The best stab I could take would be that Technocracy magic is oppressive purely because it has almost established itself as the sole type of magic - the sole view of reality. The idea would be that such monolithic thought stifles creativity.

That answer has lots of problems, of course. One probelm is that science seems to be so creative. Another problem is that the scientific worldview is nowhere near as dominant as the Mage books often seem to suggest. In particular, the Celestial Chorus should really be giving the Technocracy a run for its money.

So in short, damn good question.


Which counteracts various and assorted realism checks- it's not like ancient magic systems were all fun-loving and happy go lucky.


True. Some Mage products are better at facing this fact than others are. But some are truly awful in their Disneyesque reinterpretation of history.


It's also very, very limiting- I don't want all my "traditional" magic to be battles for mystic enlightenment against an Evil Technological Conspiracy. What if I want a band of undead Incan drug runners? Can't do it in Mage.

Why not?

[NPC Rory]

>>I missed the Mage debate<<

I think that was the most relevent thing you said right there!

A lot of these issues you have with the game system have been debated already, and so have the rules.

There /are/ some paradigm specific rules that are included in some sourcebooks - but to have lots and lots of addon rules brought to the forefront of the game would be somewhat obtrusive to the elegance of the idea of having a centralised system in the first place - ie it would no longer be an actual 'system' just a mish-mash of different rules.

>>Also, technomagic is lame. Very lame. If the game has a "reason vs. emotion" theme manifested in "science vs. magic", why the heck would Science BE magic?<<

Technomagic is arguably the most potent form of magic in Mage, largely because it is the most widely believed an supported paradigm.......unless you travel to some non-westernised culture, in which case another paradigm may end up being more powerful. And, of course, time can change everything too.

That science can be considered to be form of magic is dependant upon the paradigm in question. The Technocracy don't consider what they do to be magical....however, advanced technology used in a primitive culture can often be seen as being magical - because that's how the paradigm of the culture explains it.

Likewise, Aleister Crowley felt his 'magick' to be a form of uber-science - more scientific than science itself - so again we can see how different perceptions of reality explain things in different ways. This is the idea that the Mage magic system picks up upon.

>>If it's the same thing, why would the Technocracy's magic be evil and oppressive, and the Tradition's so uplifting to the human soul? Which counteracts various and assorted realism checks- it's not like ancient magic systems were all fun-loving and happy go lucky. It's also very, very limiting- I don't want all my "traditional" magic to be battles for mystic enlightenment against an Evil Technological Conspiracy.<<

I think you'll find that since Guide to the Traditions and Mage Revised have been released - this portrayal of the Technocracy is no longer done. The Technocracy are no longer portrayed as being 'bad-guys' because they believe in science......the Traditions are certainly not all portrayed as being 'fun-loving and happy'; the Ascension War was declared 'over' some time ago too. Basically this is a completely out-dated criticism of the game to the tune of about...um...three years or so!

The Inca thing was done in the Dead Magic supplement, by the way! They've also done sourcebooks on the Middle East and (best of all) the FarEast.

I suggest you try to read these books before you criticise.

[NPC Rory]

>>The alternate shperes my group ended up using were emotional rather than effects based. Roll sphere dice equal to whatever emotion is fueling your lust for results.

The traditions had sphere's like "lust," "fear," "compassion," etc. while the Conventions had spheres like "curiosity" and "protective instinct."<<

What an excellent idea! :-)

[eyebeams]

Also, technomagic is lame. Very lame. If the game has a "reason vs. emotion" theme manifested in "science vs. magic", why the heck would Science BE magic? If it's the same thing, why would the Technocracy's magic be evil and oppressive, and the Tradition's so uplifting to the human soul? Which counteracts various and assorted realism checks- it's not like ancient magic systems were all fun-loving and happy go lucky. It's also very, very limiting- I don't want all my "traditional" magic to be battles for mystic enlightenment against an Evil Technological Conspiracy. What if I want a band of undead Incan drug runners? Can't do it in Mage.


Well, technomagic is a part of the setting. If you don't care for it, Mage isn't for you.

The Technocracy isn't bad because of their paradigm. They're bad because they're a totalitarian conspiracy. The Council of Nine do, by default, promote diversity through a sort of anarcho-syndicalist mechanism; you join a Tradition voluntarily and live by their rules, but you (ideally) don't try to push those rules on society at large (but you give them the option to accept them) or other Traditions. Individual mages have their own ideas about this, but this is the default structure of the Traditions.

As for "happy history," I can definitely tell you that I haven't written any books about how super-duper the past was or how morally superior mustical methods are. I don't think any other recent line writers have, either.

In fact, Tradition Book: Euthanatos (Revised) does allow you to play undead Incan drug runners, right down an appropriate sect and magical methods needed. Funny you should mention it.<self promotion>Look for it in stores in April!</self promotion>

[NPC Rory]

Yeah....there are basically two reasons as to why the Technocracy can be seen as being bad in Mage.

The first is that they represent a paternalistic force - that is, they inhibit the freedom of others.

The second is that, in a game so heavily themed on post-modernism, they represent a decisively *modernist* archetype.

[Professor Phobos]

<<<I think you'll find that since Guide to the Traditions and Mage Revised have been released - this portrayal of the Technocracy is no longer done. The Technocracy are no longer portrayed as being 'bad-guys' because they believe in science......the Traditions are certainly not all portrayed as being 'fun-loving and happy'; the Ascension War was declared 'over' some time ago too. Basically this is a completely out-dated criticism of the game to the tune of about...um...three years or so! >>>

Considering I own both of those products, and still got the impression I did betrays that central theme in this discussion- you like the game! I don't! It really doesn't matter...


As for pretty much every reply- I should really clarify. I have some key issues with Mage, including the magic system, however- I can still tell it's a good game. I'm not trying to make it out like the game itself didn't have highlights, good points, etc.

It's just that if I don't care for the Magic system (storyteller in general, as well) and I don't care for some of the ways the setting is organized, and I don't care for the Gothic Punk stylings found in the World of Darkness games...means that while individual aspects of Mage are certainly cool (glad to hear about the Undead Incan Drug Runners) the product as a whole failed...for me.

It would have been almost perfect with a better magic system and more varied factions. (For me.)

As for paternalistic forces- I've got nothing against that. If I were in the game, I'd probably on the side of the Technocracy...
I've got no problem with Modernist ideas, either...

[Professor Phobos]

I have no idea why my last post was in italics.

[eyebeams]

More varied factions? Christ man, I think you're just taking this piss now. Each major Tradition has at least half a dozen subsects. There are a bunch of Technocratic methodologies splitting the 5 Conventions further and crafts -- that have their own divisions. There are <i>easily</i> over 30-40 individual factions that have been officially described and probably more in the pipe. since Mage currently favors a kind of balkanized occult conspiracy.

Look at the Traditions. In the Traditions we have the Akashic Brotherhood. The Akashic Brotherhood is made of the following 6 major sects:

Li-Hai
Shi Ren
Jnani
Vajrapani
Kannagara
Wu Lung

Each of those break down into the following occult fraternities:

Mo-Tzu Fa
Blue Skins
Roda D'Oro

Han Fei Tzu Academy
Kaizankai
Gam Lung

Wu Shan
Yamabushi
Chabnagpa
Lin Shen

Tenshin Arashi Ryu
Banner of the Ebon Dragon
Sulsa

Jina
Shaolin
Karmachakra

Tiger School
Dragon School
Pheonix School

So in this case, 1 Tradition is an association for 19 different sects.

I know the game isn't to your taste, but Christ Almighty man! There are lots and lots of different organizations.

[Professor Phobos]

Sigh.

I'm not trying to demean the game- I highly respect the work done on it.

And by "Varied" I'm not talking sheer numbers. (Especially sheer numbers that are just an aspect of a larger restriction...)
I should have probably said..."More factions that are not boring."

[Futilitarian]

...is what would happen if all the sleepers believed that their beliefs did not define reality, because, well--that's what the sleeper's actually believe in the setting, right? Otherwise, they'd be magicians. :)

I mean, the vast majority of sleepers don't believe in BDR. So how does that work? Or, what if the majority of sleepers believed in an omnipotent, non-belief affected God (which they seem to do)? :) :) :)

(Metaphysics makes me silly, sorry.)

[NPC Rory]

>>My Only Question About Mage......is what would happen if all the sleepers believed that their beliefs did not define reality, because, well--that's what the sleeper's actually believe in the setting, right?<<

Yep, that's about right. So what we get now is a world where the most prominent paradigm is the 'Paradigm of Apathy' - where reality seems to take a collective >sigh< and deflates into numbness.........which is what the Mages are trying to break free from.

Sleepers, however, aren't the only beings in the WoD that contribute to the collective unconscious.



Oh and Doctor Phobos, would it be churlish of me to suggest that the Guide to the Traditions discusses the possibility of 'Twisted Traditions' and 'Cross-Tradition' factions - effectively allowing to create any type of Tradition you like under the umbrella of the Council.................But hey, dif'rent strokes and all that...

[Professor Phobos]

I've read Guide to the Traditions, and if I played Mage, i'd be very satisfied with it as a book of quality.

But I just don't like the idea of the Traditions in the first place- Nine magical-groups-with-sub-sects just isn't how I see a proper hidden occult society. I'd find it more likely that you'd have a lot of little groups, with a handful of big, powerful groups, all competing for limited power and trying to avoid the Technocratic Hammer.
Same with the Technocracy- I don't see why you'd have Conventions at all, just one, monolithic and multi-talented organization, within Factions-That-Are-Not-Formed-Into-Splats for all kinds of internal political fun. Again, with the Nephandi- I don't see Cosmic Evil as being all that interested in Cooperation. You'd have individual black magic groups contacting their own, pet, dark God...

I suppose it's an anti-splat bias.

[NPC Rory]

>>I'd find it more likely that you'd have a lot of little groups, with a handful of big, powerful groups, all competing for limited power and trying to avoid the Technocratic Hammer. <<

This is precisely what they are trying to do with the game right now......*Proffessor* Phobos!.....>ahem<

And whilst I would agree, to an extent, with the 'anti-splat' sentiments, I would also say that they do help to present character types in a format that is easier for new players to pick up upon. The splats really are just a character generation tool and nothing else - it really is very easy to ignore them entirely in the game.

Moreover, if you inspect them a little closer, you will find that the Tradition stereotypes are already quite substantially broken down just by reading through the text - the Dreamspeaker 'Tradition', for example, doesn't really exist - it's just a convenient label used by other Mages - and so on.

Just think of the splats as a way of formatting ideas so that they are grouped by themes - in practice, and in the cases of most individual Mages, they don't really mean all that much. Particularly in the post-Revised WoD, where all the Old Masters have gone, etc...