[Star Wars] Saga Edition Preview

[Skull Leader]

WotC posted a preview of the upcoming Star Wars: Saga Edition rulebook, covering talent trees, triple the starting hit points for 1st-level characters, and more. I like what I'm seeing so far (I'm glad I have a group that enjoys the d20 system).

I wonder if having the high ground will give me a +10 bonus to my attack roll in this edition :D

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview1

[devlin1]

I wonder if having the high ground will give me a +10 bonus to my attack roll in this edition :D
No, it just means you automatically cut off your opponent's legs.

[Borogove]

has anyone else noticed they seem to have folded defence (armour class) into reflex saves?

[RedFox]

I'm in love.

Yeah, I noticed that the Saves don't seem to be rolled anymore, and are now called Defenses. Hmm.

Also, did anyone notice that the statblock doesn't appear to give the character a strength bonus on the vibroblade's damage?

[Fresh Ninja]

Also, did anyone notice that the statblock doesn't appear to give the character a strength bonus on the vibroblade's damage?

One of the writers posted on WotC's board that it's an oversight. The strength bonus should be there.

[novastar]

In addition, talent trees expand the amount of information we can include in future Saga Edition releases. Rather than worrying about alternative or replacement class features, upcoming products will include new talent trees for existing classes, as well as new talents for existing trees.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss... :p

I'm not seeing much of a difference here, save some semantics. It still strikes me as the same mechanic.

Also, heroes get triple their Hit Die at first level, so they're better able to survive a few blaster shots without going down for the count.
:rolleyes:
I'll label this under the same catergory as the "G.I. Joe" rule in RIFTS...
Enough people whined that when they got shot, occasionally their character died. :p

You could start with a scoundrel as your heroic class and add talents and feats that let her wield the Force while dodging speeders and firing blasters. The new edition of the rules greatly expands the possibilities for Force-users, allowing for a wider array of character options.
I'm really hoping there's a good counter-balance to this...
My private fear is they've made it too tempting for *everyone* to want to have Force powers in the new Saga Edition...
It was one of my gripes about d6 Star Wars.

Defenses Ref 13 (flat-footed 13), Fort 14, Will 12
hp 26; Threshold 14
Hmmm, looks like starting HP are triple the die type, plus your Con Modifier.
And Threshold looks to be tied to the new "Fort Defense"...

Speed: 6 squares
:cool: Yeah, it's not built to be played by mini's, no sirree... :p

[AusJeb]

Yeah, it's not built to be played by mini's, no sirree...

Meh. Why make people convert from squares to feet? Either way, it's an abstract measurement.

[loconius]

WotC posted a preview of the upcoming Star Wars: Saga Edition rulebook, covering talent trees, triple the starting hit points for 1st-level characters, and more. I like what I'm seeing so far (I'm glad I have a group that enjoys the d20 system).

I wonder if having the high ground will give me a +10 bonus to my attack roll in this edition :D

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview1

Damn these computers with their "wizards of the coast filters!!" actually they just filter game sites in general, except this forum :P

so is it a good article, everything we hoped for a new incarnation of d20? something that could be brought to other versions of d20?

[novastar]

Saga Edition Preview 1
Classes and Character Creation
By Rodney Thompson


The Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition rulebook comes out in May. Are you ready for the new core rules? Maybe you've already planned your first character. (I know I have -- Chalkazza, a Wookiee bounty hunter). Or maybe you're outlining your first campaign, cooking up villains and nemeses to throw at an unsuspecting band of heroes. Of course, before you can start blasting stormtroopers and locking lightsabers, you've got to be able to create those wonderful characters.

Fortunately, Saga Editionhas you covered. One of the primary goals of the new edition was to make character creation more flexible. At the same time, we wanted to streamline the process so that new players could jump right in, and we tried to give experienced players a wealth of options when crafting their characters.

As some ravenous readers might know, we've reduced the number of classes to five: Jedi, noble, scoundrel, scout, and soldier. We bid the fringer farewell and send the tech specialist back to the assembly line, granting their heroic abilities to other classes. We also distilled the Jedi guardian and Jedi consular classes into a single Jedi class, which is more in line with what we see in the movies. The Force adept has become a prestige class, but we reinvented the process of creating a non-Jedi Force user. It now involves a new set of mechanics that finally lets players create Force users of their own traditions without being locked into class features that didn't necessarily fit the character's back story.

At the same time, we worked to infuse the remaining classes with excitement and a lot of abilities. If you want to play a "fringer," you're likely to use the scout or scoundrel class, and a "tech specialist" will use the scoundrel class as well. The merging of these classes allows you to create heroic characters that might fit a certain theme while still being able to do exciting things. Star Wars is all about excitement, intrigue, and depth, and your character's abilities should convey that.

Talent Trees
When it came time to redesign the classes, we took a hard look at what works for the d20 system and what could be improved. We asked questions such as, "Why do all Force adepts learn to use the Force to understand other languages?" and "Why do all nobles get resource access, regardless of their history?" Sure, certain iconic archetypes stand out in the Star Wars universe, but do all iconic roles demand the same class features?

Saga Editionfeatures a system of talents and feats similar to that which was used in the d20 Modern game system. At odd-numbered levels, you select a talent, which lets you do something unique in much the same way that class features did under the old rules. These talents are broken down into subgroups called trees that arrange the talents by function or theme. Some talents can't be selected unless you've already taken another talent from the same tree (much like a feat prerequisite), and thus you build a set of class features that play off of one another.

The changes to the system allow you to build a character to your liking, selecting very specific features rather than being saddled with the same features as every other member of your class. Moreover, the flexible new rules let you choose the order in which you gain abilities, so you can prioritize which talents are most important to you and which ones you'll pick up at a later level. So if you envision your Rodian smuggler as a "run and gun" type, you can build his class features to suit those needs. By the same token, if you want him to be a fast-talking swindler and con artist, he's just as easy to create. If each class represents a classic Star Wars archetype, your selection of talents lets you tailor that archetype to your personality and game play style.

You can even create two members of the same class that share almost no talents, and with the addition of prestige classes, you might have absolutely no overlap with other similar characters. This not only allows multiple heroes of the same class to fulfill unique roles, but with larger groups, it ensures that each PC contributes something unique to the game.

In addition, talent trees expand the amount of information we can include in future Saga Edition releases. Rather than worrying about alternative or replacement class features, upcoming products will include new talent trees for existing classes, as well as new talents for existing trees.

Talent trees will also keep prestige classes from becoming overly specialized. No longer will the naval officer and the officer need to be two different prestige classes, and the Jedi Knight prestige class can encompass Jedi healers, Jedi investigators, Jedi battlemasters, and so on. The individual requirements for specialization will be carried in the talents themselves, not in totally separate classes.

More Character Options
In addition to providing heroes with access to talent trees, we tried to make individual characters more capable overall. Saga Edition uses a hit point system to track damage, with a "condition track" that slides up and down over the course of the battle, imposing and removing penalties. See Jedi Counseling 101 for more on the condition track.

Also, heroes get triple their Hit Die at first level, so they're better able to survive a few blaster shots without going down for the count. We wanted a group of 1st-level heroes to be able to fight stormtroopers in the first game session, if the GM so wished. Star Wars characters fight bad guys, and lots of them, and the Saga Edition rules let the heroes jump right into light combat. Stormtroopers are still pretty threatening at 1st level, but now heroes have enough resources and abilities that deciding whether to fight or flee is actually a tough decision.

The Force Is With You
We've revamped Jedi and other Force-users to make them more flexible. The single Jedi class contains talent trees for the Jedi consular, the Jedi guardian, and the Jedi sentinel, as well as a talent tree for lightsaber combat. In the Star Wars movies, we see that Yoda is part Jedi consular and part Jedi guardian, and now players can create characters that are similar hybrids. Similarly, you can create a Jedi who behaves more like Yoda from the classic trilogy -- focusing more on the Force than the lightsaber -- and you can do it with a great diversity of character options.

Moreover, in Saga Edition, you can build a Force adept character using a combination of Force abilities and the talents, feats, and skills of other classes. For example, let's say you want to create an urban Force-user who grew up on the streets of Chandrila and who focuses more on city survival than on "primitive" Force traditions. You could start with a scoundrel as your heroic class and add talents and feats that let her wield the Force while dodging speeders and firing blasters. The new edition of the rules greatly expands the possibilities for Force-users, allowing for a wider array of character options.

Sample Talent Tree: Jedi Sentinel
As an example of what a talent tree might look like, let's walk through the tree for the Jedi sentinel. The Jedi that follow this path are the true enemies of the dark side, hunting down evil wherever they go. Masters of subtlety, Jedi sentinels manage to withstand the lure of the dark side, even when confronted almost constantly with its power.

Clear Mind: You may reroll any opposed Use the Force check made to avoid being detected by other Force-users. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it is worse.

Dark Side Sense: Jedi sentinels are exceptionally talented at rooting out evil. You may reroll any Use the Force check made to sense the presence and relative location of creatures with a Dark Side Score of 1 or higher. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it is worse.

Dark Side Scourge: Against creatures with a Dark Side Score of 1 or higher, you deal extra damage on melee attacks. The number of points of extra damage is equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum +1).
Prerequisite: Dark Side Sense.

Force Haze:You can spend a Force Point as a standard action to create a "haze" that hides you and your allies from the perceptions of others. You can hide a number of creatures in line of sight equal to your class level. Make a Use the Force check and compare the result to the Will Defense of any opponent that moves into line of sight of any creature hidden by your Force haze. If your check result beats the opponent's Will Defense, all hidden creatures are treated as if they had total concealment against that opponent. The Force haze lasts up to 1 minute but is dismissed instantly if anyone hidden by the Force haze makes an attack.
Prerequisite: Clear Mind.

Resist the Dark Side: You gain a Force bonus of +5 to all Defense scores against Force powers that have the "dark side" descriptor. You gain the same bonus against Force powers that originate from any dark Force-user (that is, any Force-user whose Dark Side Score equals his Wisdom score).
Prerequisite: Dark Side Sense.

Sample Stat Block
Here's a preview of a statistics block that was constructed using the Saga Edition rules.

Chalkazza, Wookiee Bounty Hunter CL 1
Medium Wookiee scout 1
Force 5; Dark Side 0
Init +0; Senses Perception +6
Languages Basic (cannot speak), Shryiiwook



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Defenses Ref 13 (flat-footed 13), Fort 14, Will 12
hp 26; Threshold 14

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed 6 squares
Melee vibroblade +3 (2d6+3)
Ranged bowcaster +0 (3d10)
Base Atk +0; Grp +3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 8
SQ extraordinary recuperation, Wookiee rage
Talents Acute Senses
Feats Shake It Off, Weapon Proficiency (advanced melee weapons, pistols, rifles, simple weapons)
Skills Climb +3 (may take 10 even when distracted), Endurance +7, Perception +6, Persuasion –1 (may reroll checks to intimidate), Pilot +5, Stealth +5
Possessions bowcaster, vibroblade, binders (2), comlink, macrobinoculars

Improvements All Around
High-level play is much more streamlined and efficient in Saga Edition, and combat runs just as smoothly at 20th level as it does at 1st level. Furthermore, the new character creation rules let you build a high-level NPC in 5 to 10 minutes instead of an hour. Because generating enemies and allies on the fly is fast and simple, it's easier for Gamemasters to improvise when players diverge from the planned session.

All in all, the changes to classes, skills, and other systems make the process of generating characters quick and flexible.

In future previews of Saga Edition, we'll take a closer look at individual aspects of character creation, such as the skills system and building Force adepts. We'll also examine other aspects of the new rules, such as the revamped combat system, the way droids are handled, and the unified vehicle/starship combat system. Stay tuned to this web site!
Hopefully this will help... :p ;) :D

[Jay]

:rolleyes:
I'll label this under the same catergory as the "G.I. Joe" rule in RIFTS...
Enough people whined that when they got shot, occasionally their character died. :p

It's Star Wars. Star Wars is only lethal when it needs to be.

[loconius]

Hopefully this will help... :p ;) :D

I love you, "your like a brother to me. And when I say brother, I don't mean, like, an actual brother, but I mean it like the way black people use it. Which is more meaningful I think."

All in all i like the changes they made... looks like they kept the base attack bonus. i may house rule that into the skills close combat and ranged combat [soldiers get 2 extra skill points per level, all others get 1]. maybe not, but i do like the changes so far!

[Wizdoc]

Hmmmh... I'm a bit wary on the whole "we're gonna release more and more new talents and shit in the future" as it has the danger of overly specialize character, just like the addition of all the numerous weird Prestige Classes in the previous editions. Of course, again, I can always proclaim "corebook only, bitches!" if my group starts to get funny ideas about Jedi Ninja Weapon Master Wizard characters or whatever, so it's not a big problem.

So far, I'm extremely excited about all these changes and streamlines. Good stuff.

[Bahama'at]

has anyone else noticed they seem to have folded defence (armour class) into reflex saves?The curse of Green Ronin lives!

Actually not a bad idea really.

The example template looks pretty spiff, and going the d20Modern route with Talent trees will make compensating for the missing classes easy enough (replicate their core class abilities as a talent tree, plug into the most appropriate existing class). Looks nice, I know a lot of my fellow players will like the much cleaned up simplified character sheet.

- Ma'at

[Mr. Golden Deal]

I'm cautiously optimistic. Very cautiously. I like the removal of extraneous classes, I like the simplification of the rules, I like the addition of ways to custom-tool your character. I'm not such a big fan of Hit Points, but if they've tied it to a 'wound penalties' system I could be down with it. I'm not going to rule it out in the future, like I would probably do with a new D&D release.

[Old Geezer]

Hmm.

It will be... interesting. Looks like they've retooled the Jedi Sentinel to coopt the fanrule "Jedi Redeemer".

Hope they have tips on converting existing characters.

Though I do read this as "Yeah, all the previous editions and patches were pretty much ass."

[Ineti]

Though I do read this as "Yeah, all the previous editions and patches were pretty much ass."

I guess it finally dawned on them that Star Wars isn't "D&D...In Spaaaaaace!"

[Christopher V. Brady]

I guess it finally dawned on them that Star Wars isn't "D&D...In Spaaaaaace!"

I dunno, they don't seem to have quite gotten past that... At least according to what I see.

[Xenu's Paradox]

Climb +3 (may take 10 even when distracted), Endurance +7, Perception +6, Persuasion –1 (may reroll checks to intimidate), Pilot +5, Stealth +5

Interesting... this gives some insight into the way they've dealt with the skills.

It looks like Spot, Search, and Sense Motive have been rolled into a general "Perception" skill, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are now the Persuasion skill, and Hide/Move Silently are now Stealth. Not sure what all Endurance covers, though it may be tied into damage threshold somehow. Note that this is a level 1 character with +7 on one skill. Interesting.

[Bobaloo]

The more that gets revealed about this the more excited I get. I really like the ideas of fewer classes, but more ways to customize. I love reducing the skill list.

If it is really true in practice that high level character gen and combat is as smooth as the lower levels, I'll really be impressed.

(FWIW, I'm, in that camp that thinks this may be a "preview" of what's to come in D&D 4. I like the direction this is going.)

[AusJeb]

It looks like Spot, Search, and Sense Motive have been rolled into a general "Perception" skill, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are now the Persuasion skill, and Hide/Move Silently are now Stealth. Not sure what all Endurance covers, though it may be tied into damage threshold somehow. Note that this is a level 1 character with +7 on one skill. Interesting.

Good observations. The +7 likely includes either a +2 from Con or a +3 from Str.

These changes make me wish all the more for a d20 M 2d ed.

[Ineti]

Good observations. The +7 likely includes either a +2 from Con or a +3 from Str.

These changes make me wish all the more for a d20 M 2d ed.

So where did the other points come from? A base starting point per character level? I seem to recall they mentioned that there wouldn't be any more skill points as such.

[Old Geezer]

It looks like Spot, Search, and Sense Motive have been rolled into a general "Perception" skill, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are now the Persuasion skill, and Hide/Move Silently are now Stealth.

Good.

Because having separate Spot, Search, Listen numbers gave me the bloody shits.

[PaladinCA]

Though I do read this as "Yeah, all the previous editions and patches were pretty much ass."

I tend to agree here, but I am willing to give SAGA edition a shot. What the hell, it isn't like it will get any worse. They have nowhere to go but up.

[Piestrio]

I tend to agree here, but I am willing to give SAGA edition a shot. What the hell, it isn't like it will get any worse. They have nowhere to go but up.

[thread jack]

Saga edition.

SAGA is a different game.

:)

[/Threadjack]

This may cause me to restart my StarWars game.

Piestrio

[Bradford C. Walker]

We haven't seen a high-level character yet. That's where the whole "high-level combat is as fast as low-level combat" thing pans out or not. Especially if the HP scheme doesn't involve triple-digit numbers between 15-20th level.

[PaladinCA]

[thread jack]

Saga edition.

SAGA is a different game.

:)

[/Threadjack]

This may cause me to restart my StarWars game.

Piestrio

Potato, Potahto... :p A SPUD is a Spud...:D

[Reverend Keith]

As some ravenous readers might know, we've reduced the number of classes to five: Jedi, noble, scoundrel, scout, and soldier.
I'm assuming that Jedi isn't a generic force user class, so does anyone know what class Sith take? I can see fallen Jedi going to Sith PrC route, but what about folks like Darth Maul or Sideous?


I really like what I'm reading about talent trees. That's one of the reasons I like how True20 handles roles and feats.

Also, heroes get triple their Hit Die at first level, so they're better able to survive a few blaster shots without going down for the count.
Heh. Why do I feel like I'm reading the ad copy for Dark Sun again. ;)

[Old Geezer]

We haven't seen a high-level character yet. That's where the whole "high-level combat is as fast as low-level combat" thing pans out or not. Especially if the HP scheme doesn't involve triple-digit numbers between 15-20th level.

Fuck yes. High level combat is an agony.

Actually, combat between high level Force users is quick once somebody hits. But that's a whole DIFFERENT set of problems.

[Mr. Golden Deal]

As for Sith, I think it would be a PrC entirely devoid of class requirements and would only require Force Sensitive, maintaining a certain Dark Side score and perhaps a few Talents. Requiring someone to be a Jedi would be lame, not to mention not even remotely true according to canon.

[PaladinCA]

Jedi and Dark Jedi (Sith), can probably get by fine with Jedi Class seeing that the difference is in the ethos and the application.

It would have been nice to have a combined Force User type or an additional Force User/Adept role as well to govern those who follow neither Jedi Order or Sith traditions.

[BlackSheep]

Let's see...Climb and Persuasion are at base stat levels. I reckon Endurance 5+Con, Perception 5+Wis, Pilot and Stealth 5+Dex. Looks like some sort of 'skill picks' system to me.

[Dr. Tran]

It would have been nice to have a combined Force User type or an additional Force User/Adept role as well to govern those who follow neither Jedi Order or Sith traditions.

From what I've read force adepts are easily made by giving any of the other classes force talents so you will have plenty of options to make different traditions.

[Dr. Tran]

Potato, Potahto... :p A SPUD is a Spud...:D

But SAGA is not Saga. SAGA is the card based system that Dragonlance ran under for a while. Saga edition is D20. Completely and totally different animals.

[devlin1]

Let's see...Climb and Persuasion are at base stat levels. I reckon Endurance 5+Con, Perception 5+Wis, Pilot and Stealth 5+Dex. Looks like some sort of 'skill picks' system to me.
Or maybe the difference between class skills and cross-class? They all cost the same, but class skills get a bonus of some kind. They did say there wouldn't be skill ranks, didn't they?

[Xenu's Paradox]

I tend to think that you get to pick X number of skills from your class list at each level. Those chosen at first level get a +5. Thereafter, any new skill selected gets a +5, while existing skills selected again get, say, a +2.

And I agree with Geezer about having separate checks for Spot/Search/Listen. I'm all in favor of rolling together as many skills as possible, preferably until you have a list of 10-15 skills total. Calculating skill points and then deciding how to spend them is the most involved part of chargen in d20, and it's a pain in the ass for me personally.

-Haplo, who is also on the "I hope this is prototype D&D 4th" bandwagon.

[PaladinCA]

But SAGA is not Saga. SAGA is the card based system that Dragonlance ran under for a while. Saga edition is D20. Completely and totally different animals.

Duh. :D

I refered to it as "SAGA edition" not SAGA. So I used caps for Saga. I know it isn't the card based SAGA system.

Nitpickers. :p

[Jason D]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if combat has been streamlined - hopefully ridding the system of Attacks of Opportunity and the like?

[Borogove]

I tend to think that you get to pick X number of skills from your class list at each level. Those chosen at first level get a +5. Thereafter, any new skill selected gets a +5, while existing skills selected again get, say, a +2.
How is that significantly different from how the current system works? I think it's more likely you pick a number of skills at character gen (probably class + int), and those skills have effectivly max rank for the rest of the game (looking like level + 4). All other skills are at some other bonus (maybe level/3).

[Xenu's Paradox]

How is that significantly different from how the current system works? I think it's more likely you pick a number of skills at character gen (probably class + int), and those skills have effectivly max rank for the rest of the game (looking like level + 4). All other skills are at some other bonus (maybe level/3).

Flat bonuses are always easier to deal with than allocating a pool of points.

Currently, in D&D, I get 8 points per level as a Bard with a 14 INT. Those 8 points can be:

All spent on a single skill (so long as I don't go over my max ranks.)

Split between 8 different skills at 1 point each.

Split between 7 different skills at 1 point each for 6, and 2 points on the eighth.

Split between 6 different skills at 1 point each for 5, and 3 points on the seventh.

Split between 6 different skills at 1 point each for 4, and 2 points each on the fifth and sixth.

Split between 5 different skills at 1 point each for 4, and 4 points on the fifth.

Split between 5 different skills at 1 point each for 3, 2 on the fourth, and 3 on the fifth.

Split

Etc. etc. etc.

Note that each of these is multiplied considerably due to the number of different class skills available (25 for bards.) This creates literally hundreds, if not thousands, of possible permutations.

What I suggested has far fewer possible permutations.

Example:

As a Bard, my class skills are:

Athletics (Climb/Swim/Ride/Jump/Tumble)
Persuasion (Bluff/Diplomacy/Gather Information)
Creative (Appraise/Perform/Craft)
Subterfuge (Disguise/Forgery)
Perception (Search/Spot/Listen/Sense Motive)
Stealth (Hide/Move Silently)

At each level, I get to choose 3 of these. Skills chosen for the first time get a +5, and thereafter get +2.

Let's say I'm lvl 3. My current skills are:

Athletics 0
Persuasion 7 "ranks"
Creative 9 "ranks"
Subterfuge 7 "ranks"
Perception 7

I now go up to lvl 4. My choices are:

Level up Athletics, Persuasion, and Creative.
Level up Athletics, Persuasion, and Subterfuge.
Level up Athletics, Persuasion, and Perception.
Level up Persuasion, Creative, and Subterfuge.
Level up Persuasion, Creative, and Perception.
Level up Creative, Subterfuge, and Perception.

6 choices. That's it. I get those same exact choices at every single level. The only possible difference in which skill I choose to advance is whether it goes up by 2 or by 5.

Your method would effectively lock in which skills get the maximum bonus at level 1. If you later decide that you'd like to get better progression for a skill you didn't pick at chargen, you're out of luck.

[Professor Phobos]

Some of these changes, combined with others, would convince me to pick up D&D 4th, should it ever appear.

[Xenu's Paradox]

Personally, I hope they eventually get rid of the clunky "Ability Score/Ability Modifier" crap. When does the actual score ever get checked in play? Anyone? Buehler?

I'd much rather see them switch to a straight point buy where you have fewer points to spend, but you aren't starting at 8 and going up to 18 or whatever- you are starting at -1 and going up to +4

Something like this:

You get 12 points to spend on ability scores (which are identical to the classic "ability modifiers," the classic "ability score having gone the way of THAC0 and Save vs. Death Ray.)

Score.....Cost

-4..........gain 8
-3..........gain 5
-2..........gain 1
-1...........0
+0..........1
+1..........2
+2..........3
+3..........5
+4..........8

Or something like that. Then just give characters a +1 to any score at every 5th level and adjust monster stats/CRs accordingly.

[devlin1]

Personally, I hope they eventually get rid of the clunky "Ability Score/Ability Modifier" crap. When does the actual score ever get checked in play? Anyone? Buehler?
You oughtta check out True20; it only uses modifiers, not scores.

[Borogove]

snip alternate methodum, how is that different from only getting three skill points per level, with the catch-up option removed? You've effectivly got the worst parts of both methods- less customisation than default, but still having to record ranks for each skill?

[Xenu's Paradox]

You don't have to record ranks. You decide how many times to select a particular skill, then gain a bonus on top of your ability modifier of 2 * ranks + 3.

Essentially, you're going from having 8 skill points to distribute between 25 skills per level (D&D 3.5) to having a choice of which 3 out of 6 skills you want to advance per level.

If you stat up a 20th level bard with a 14 INT, you have to distribute 160 points between 25 skills, with a maximum of 23 points per skill. There are literally thousands of ways to do this.

The method I postulate has you split 60 points between 6 skills with a maximum of 20 points on any given skill. There are significantly fewer ways to do this, but not so few that it railroads your choices. After allocating points, you double the amount spent on each skill and add 3 to the total.

Your method gives you a single-digit number of choices, and only at first level. Once you've chosen from your half-dozen or so available skills, you're locked in.

To sum up:

D&D 3.5: Hundreds of choices for advancing skills at each level.

My method: About a half dozen choices for advancing skills at each level.

Your method: About a half dozen choices for picking skills, made once.

[Borogove]

...To sum up:

D&D 3.5: Hundreds of choices for advancing skills at each level.

My method: About a half dozen choices for advancing skills at each level.

Your method: About a half dozen choices for picking skills, made once.this is true. The point I was making was that there really isn't a lot of difference between your method and the one used in DnD, once you reduce the number of skills. Also, if I'm reading your proposed method correctly, you do have have to record ranks (well, how many times you've chosen to advance each skill, which amounts to the same thing). Given they have explicitly said they aren't including skill points, I feel your version is both an unnecessary change, and also not one they are likely to implement.

[grubman]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if combat has been streamlined - hopefully ridding the system of Attacks of Opportunity and the like?

Gawd, I hope not! AoO have proven to be a great part of the system over the years, both tactically, and for providing a quick and easy rule for what is possible.

That said, I doubt it. One of the design goals is to get a little closer to the quick and simple mini game...and they have AoO in that, so I expect that since all the 10 year olds playing THAT game can comprehend them, they will assume that everyone playing the (much more complicated) RPG can do the same.

Of course, I don't think combat needs "streamlining" anyway, since it is one of the things D20 does really well.

[Ineti]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if combat has been streamlined - hopefully ridding the system of Attacks of Opportunity and the like?

No, I think the minis game uses AoO as well, and the new rules are supposed to be more compatible with the minis game, so I assume the AoO are here to stay.

[Jason D]

Gawd, I hope not! AoO have proven to be a great part of the system over the years, both tactically, and for providing a quick and easy rule for what is possible.

That said, I doubt it. One of the design goals is to get a little closer to the quick and simple mini game...and they have AoO in that, so I expect that since all the 10 year olds playing THAT game can comprehend them, they will assume that everyone playing the (much more complicated) RPG can do the same.

Of course, I don't think combat needs "streamlining" anyway, since it is one of the things D20 does really well.
It's not really a question of "comprehending" AoOs and the like.

I understand them and how to use them fine, but I've noticed that every d20 ruleset I admire has gotten rid of them, and was hoping that WotC wasn't going to be using the rpg as a means to sell more minis. Naive, that.

Oh well, it just means that right around the time I was curious about picking it up, it becomes even more Not For Me.

[Old Geezer]

I don't mind AoO, I mind that the rules for them are so shitty -- taking a couple pages to do what a typical wargame does in two paragraphs (including examples).

"If a figure passes by an enemy, that enemy can abort his attack and attack the figure passing by him instead."

Yes, it's not EXACTLY the same, but it prevents "run by" and is only one sentence.

[Gentleman Highwayman]

Of course, I don't think combat needs "streamlining" anyway, since it is one of the things D20 does really well.

Then I guess it's a good thing that most d20 games revolve around combat. :D I happened to feel that d20 (D&D derived) combat is as elegant as a bullet train slamming into Mt Fuji. The both though do have lots of tiny little bits though. ;)

In reality, I'm not likely to play the Saga edition. Not because of changes, but because my group played Living Force and that's done now. Unless WotC does a new RPGA, which seems unlikely, I will only ever have it to take up space on a shelf.

While I'm not impressed with the change to HP and Wound tracking (or whatever it's called), I do like the other stuff, especially the use of talent trees. My Force Adept was very not cool since bothe previous versions assumed that all Force Adepts were some tree hugging primitives. I had a blaster at first level and the Proficiency to use it. Now a Force Adepts is just someone who knows how to use the Force without being a Jedi(R). The traditional Force Adept would be made by using a Scout as a base class, where as an urban Force Adept would probably use Scoundrel as the base class. I love that skills have been dehydrated. Who really had skill points to burn to put ranks in Search, Listen, Spot? When would you really ever want to Move Silently, but not Hide? I hope the vehicle rules make sense.

But triple HP at first level?!? Nice kludge to fix that beginning characters don't have Wounds anymore. Heavy Blaster Pistol does 3d8 with an expected value of 13-14. The lowest hit die in the game is a d6 so the minimum you'll start with is 18. Looking at the sample character, a 1st level character won't live through 2 or 3 blaster shots, so the condition tracker with it's 5 stages is moot on the low end. Still that's 1 or 2 more blaster hits more than I'd like to see any character taking in a Star Wars game.

One last thing that is apparent here (me included) is that people are talking about the bits seperately rather than the game as a whole. Sure all we have are bits and no access to the whole, but the game shouldn't be judged compared to SWd20 OCR, SWd20 RCR, D&D, Spycraft, WoT d20, ... When the game comes out it should be judged in how the game is able to translate what is on the screen to what is on your gaming table. I always thought SWd20 RCR was a brilliant game, but not Star Wars. I'll see what Saga Edition is capable of before rolling my eyes up at any particular part of the game ... except that triple HP at first level thing. ;)

Iain.

[loconius]

I don't mind AoO, I mind that the rules for them are so shitty -- taking a couple pages to do what a typical wargame does in two paragraphs (including examples).

"If a figure passes by an enemy, that enemy can abort his attack and attack the figure passing by him instead."

Yes, it's not EXACTLY the same, but it prevents "run by" and is only one sentence.

what conditions exist in the mini's game to provoke attack of opportunities? the parts of AoO that bother me are the little quirky ones, like

"the first square you move through is not subject to threatening, but any others are!"
this could be toned way down to just "if you withdraw as a full round action, you are exempt from AoO."

and AoO should be provoked anytime you do a distracting action or move without declaring a withdrawal.

oh and for those that don't want to be using mini's [unless they changed this in the minis game already], flanking bonus should be if target is attacked by more then one foe, not cumulative.

[BlackSheep]

I don't mind AoO, I mind that the rules for them are so shitty -- taking a couple pages to do what a typical wargame does in two paragraphs (including examples).
It's worth noting that the SW minis game has much simpler AOO rules:

1. If you're adjacent to an enemy, you cannot target distant enemies.

2. If you move out of a space adjacent to an enemy, that enemy gets a free attack on you.

[BlackSheep]

what conditions exist in the mini's game to provoke attack of opportunities?
Movement out of a threatened square. That seems to be it. And there's no exception for five-foot-steps or withdrawal as far as I can see.

[Old Geezer]

It's worth noting that the SW minis game has much simpler AOO rules:

1. If you're adjacent to an enemy, you cannot target distant enemies.

2. If you move out of a space adjacent to an enemy, that enemy gets a free attack on you.

That's closer to most wargames.

Actually, most wargames, it's simply "If you move adjacent to an enemy".

[Kiero]

Interesting... this gives some insight into the way they've dealt with the skills.

It looks like Spot, Search, and Sense Motive have been rolled into a general "Perception" skill, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are now the Persuasion skill, and Hide/Move Silently are now Stealth. Not sure what all Endurance covers, though it may be tied into damage threshold somehow. Note that this is a level 1 character with +7 on one skill. Interesting.

Except the Ranks are still there. I thought that was going?

[BlackSheep]

Except the Ranks are still there. I thought that was going?
Noteice that all the skills listed are either at a +0 or +5 bonus. It could be a matter of picking a few skills that stay maxed as you level up. Or you could get skill bonuses in five-point increments, with a level-based cap on how many you can stackon a single skill. At this stage, we don't know, but I'm keen to find out.

[BlackSheep]

Actually, most wargames, it's simply "If you move adjacent to an enemy".
I'm guessing the D&D and SW mini games don't want to discourage people too heavily from charging in waving a magic/laser sword.

[Jonathan Moyer]

The curse of Green Ronin lives!
Well, I'm not sure if WotC is going GR's route. For one thing, there doesn't seem to be a Toughness save. For another, it looks like the idea of "save" no longer exists. Here's the blurb from Force Haze:

Force Haze:You can spend a Force Point as a standard action to create a "haze" that hides you and your allies from the perceptions of others. You can hide a number of creatures in line of sight equal to your class level. Make a Use the Force check and compare the result to the Will Defense of any opponent that moves into line of sight of any creature hidden by your Force haze. If your check result beats the opponent's Will Defense, all hidden creatures are treated as if they had total concealment against that opponent.
(Emphasis mine)

Instead of being called a Will Save, it's called Will Defense. In addition, it's not rolled - the Force Haze user instead rolls his Use the Force Skill and compares it to the (apparently) static Will Defense, much like a D&D attack roll being compared to AC.

[NPC Brown Cow]

Personally, I hope they eventually get rid of the clunky "Ability Score/Ability Modifier" crap. When does the actual score ever get checked in play? Anyone? Buehler?

Straight Ability numbers are used to track ability damage from poisons, environmental damage, etc [in d20].

[Jonathan Moyer]

Personally, I hope they eventually get rid of the clunky "Ability Score/Ability Modifier" crap. When does the actual score ever get checked in play? Anyone? Buehler?
The two times I can think of are Ability damage form poisons and when resolving a tie on Initiative.

[grubman]

and was hoping that WotC wasn't going to be using the rpg as a means to sell more minis. Naive, that.

The only reason we are even getting the new RPG in the first place is because of the massive success of the Star Wars CMG. Honestly, I'm suprised that WotC didn't go a little further to make it even more compatable with the mini game.

[Belphanior]

Instead of being called a Will Save, it's called Will Defense. In addition, it's not rolled - the Force Haze user instead rolls his Use the Force Skill and compares it to the (apparently) static Will Defense, much like a D&D attack roll being compared to AC.

I noticed that too.

And so far I really like what I'm seeing.

[grubman]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but there is actually a Q&A up for the Saga edition already:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/rpgfaqsaga

And there is an image that MIGHT be the cover on the products page:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/rpgsagaed

:) I love Star Wars! D6, D20, I gives a rats ass, it's all a good time to me!

[Bahama'at]

Let's see...Climb and Persuasion are at base stat levels. I reckon Endurance 5+Con, Perception 5+Wis, Pilot and Stealth 5+Dex. Looks like some sort of 'skill picks' system to me.That was my guess - more shades of Green Ronin (Blue Rose in particular).

- Ma'at

[Piestrio]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but there is actually a Q&A up for the Saga edition already:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/rpgfaqsaga

And there is an image that MIGHT be the cover on the products page:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/rpgsagaed

:) I love Star Wars! D6, D20, I gives a rats ass, it's all a good time to me!

Hear, Hear!

Piestrio.

[Tommy Brownell]

The only reason we are even getting the new RPG in the first place is because of the massive success of the Star Wars CMG. Honestly, I'm suprised that WotC didn't go a little further to make it even more compatable with the mini game.

I thought it was because LucasArts had a specific provision in the contract requiring a new version of the RPG? Or at least a new release of some manner, and a new edition = easier sells.

[Saz]

Meh, I'm still unsure. While they may have gotten rid of skill ranks and collapsed the skills into a simpler format, the skill system still seems to be using some kind of a 'ranking' system. Why couldn;t they just have made skill rating = class level, with added bonus for specialization, which would be enough to diffrentiate different pc's?

All 3 'saves' are still there, and while they may have been renamed, they're still basically in the same format.

Why are they becoming so influenced by the KOTOR video game? I mean, adding in a jedi sentiinel talent tree? Come on...this really seems to go against the whole idea behind rolling the jedi into one class.

Statting up npc's still seems like it will take time; sadly there don't seem to be any 'mook' rules, something which really suit starwars.

With 3X hp at lvl 1, hp bloat seems like it will be a major problem.

[perfect^inzanity]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/rpgsagaed

*drool* I really hope that is the cover because that would be the greatest cover ever.

[Jason D]

The only reason we are even getting the new RPG in the first place is because of the massive success of the Star Wars CMG. Honestly, I'm suprised that WotC didn't go a little further to make it even more compatable with the mini game.
I understand all that, but my tastes are generally not for combat complexity or arguments about things like AoOs (which no one seems to agree on, based on the comments upthread).

So, when I read quotes like this one from the product description page:
engage in fast-paced combat, with streamlined combat rules that let blaster shootouts and lightsaber fights reach the frantic pace of the movies
... can you blame me for thinking that the game rules might feature combat that is, you know, fast-paced and, dare I repeat myself, streamlined?

[grubman]

I understand all that, but my tastes are generally not for combat complexity or arguments about things like AoOs (which no one seems to agree on, based on the comments upthread).

So, when I read quotes like this one from the product description page:

... can you blame me for thinking that the game rules might feature combat that is, you know, fast-paced and, dare I repeat myself, streamlined?

Well, they do repeatedly say that you don't need miniatures to play...and without minis and the visualization, AopO are less likely to occur or be questioned, so you'll probably get your wish.

I guess we can't truely speculate much more untill we see the actual product and what they have done.

I'm guessing that the entire game will be "streamlined" as you are hoping for. My only fear is that it might try to be to "sophisticated" by adding too many artsy fartsy rules where a good old meat and tatters solution works just fine. I know a lot of people like these sort of rules (like the condition tracker, which is the core subject of this thread), but plain old HPs work just fine for me with no muss or fuss.

[Kaemaril]

And there is an image that MIGHT be the cover on the products page:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/rpgsagaed

Not proof, I know, but Amazon are using that image on their page for the game.

[Reynard]

Well, they do repeatedly say that you don't need miniatures to play...and without minis and the visualization, AopO are less likely to occur or be questioned, so you'll probably get your wish.

IME, having dropped the grid and minis from D&D but keeping flanking, AoOs and all that tactical stuff, arguments regarding AoOs are greatly reduced and combat happens a lot faster. this is due in large part to the fact that a player's intent is part of the action description process. Instead of:

"I move here, here, here and then--"

"Ah ha! AoO!"

"Oh, wait, i meant movere, then here..."

You get:

"I want to get around to flank that orc."

"You can't get there without moving past him. he's gonna take a whack at you."

"Crap. Oh well, you only live once."

By stating intent, players that aren't good at tactical play, or don't prefer it, can still take advantage of the game's tactical elements without slowing the game to a crawl or causing arguments over rules minutia.

[Ineti]

*drool* I really hope that is the cover because that would be the greatest cover ever.

I disagree. It's not particularly evocative of the Star Wars setting. Granted, most people who buy the book will know the setting inside and out, but what's a gamer supposed to take from that picture?

"With this game I can play a character like Darth Vader?"
"With this game my character is going to be choked by Darth Vader?"

:)

[grubman]

but what's a gamer supposed to take from that picture?

I think it's hard to really capture the entire Star Wars feel in a single picture...but most everyone thinks Darth Vader is cool, and he is certainly an identifyable figure to represent Star Wars.

As far as Art Theory, it follows the same eye catching pattern that the BESM 3rd edition rule book followed, imposing black color, simple design, appealing to the eye, slightly off center.

I like it myself. Other images could have worked as well, but I don't think there is an "Ideal" image to represent the entire Star Wars universe that I've seen (although the first edition cover for D6 was nice...but that was bfore the prequils). Anyone?

[Eisenmann]

I'm going to picking this one up in hopes that it meshes with my expectations. Waaay back in the day I played a Quixotic Jedi in D6 Star Wars and it was A LOT of fun and pretty much shaped the way I look at Star Wars gaming. I then went on a 10 year gaming hiatus and it was Star Wars D20 that brought me back with the release of the Revised Core Rulebook. I ran a custom adventure but couldn't seem to go any further with it. There were just too many niggling points that didn't make me hate it but kept me from being really excited about it.

From what I've seen, many of those little bits of annoyance seem to have been streamlined away and reworked so now I'm stoked.

I may be stepping right into their insidious cross promotion trap but I'm gonna pick up some of the figures; both because I've been looking at getting them for some time anyways and because they'll be handy for when the new rulebook comes out.

I just hope that inorder for a Jedi to redirect a blaster bolt, the shooter has to miss. *crosses fingers*

As far as the cover goes, I like it. While impossible to have a single non-montage image being wholly representative of the entire SW universe, Darth Vader transcends even the genre and has made his way into pop culture at large. Show a pic of an AT-AT and we'll see the Empire's thunder stepping quadruped ground assault vehicle of doom while someone's mom would see something that the kids call a mecha. On the other hand, she knows who Darth Vader is.

[Fresh Ninja]

"With this game I can play a character like Darth Vader?"


Sure, why not?

[loconius]

I'm going to picking this one up in hopes that it meshes with my expectations. Waaay back in the day I played a Quixotic Jedi in D6 Star Wars and it was A LOT of fun and pretty much shaped the way I look at Star Wars gaming. I then went on a 10 year gaming hiatus and it was Star Wars D20 that brought me back with the release of the Revised Core Rulebook. I ran a custom adventure but couldn't seem to go any further with it. There were just too many niggling points that didn't make me hate it but kept me from being really excited about it.

From what I've seen, many of those little bits of annoyance seem to have been streamlined away and reworked so now I'm stoked.

I may be stepping right into their insidious cross promotion trap but I'm gonna pick up some of the figures; both because I've been looking at getting them for some time anyways and because they'll be handy for when the new rulebook comes out.

I just hope that inorder for a Jedi to redirect a blaster bolt, the shooter has to miss. *crosses fingers*

As far as the cover goes, I like it. While impossible to have a single non-montage image being wholly representative of the entire SW universe, Darth Vader transcends even the genre and has made his way into pop culture at large. Show a pic of an AT-AT and we'll see the Empire's thunder stepping quadruped ground assault vehicle of doom while someone's mom would see something that the kids call a mecha. On the other hand, she knows who Darth Vader is.

i agree 100%, He is Iconic to the starwars setting. hell i would say that if lucas made all 6 movies when he made the original 3, the main character in the story would be Darth Vader. there are plenty of other stories out there with laser sword weilding baddasses; but there isn't any other Darth Vaders, only one. and even my little blond sheltered Aurora friend [who didn't really know anything about black people till she meet me :-P] knew who Darth Vader was!!!

I actually didn't like the cover at first glance, but now that i take a good look at it, its straight to the point, not too busy and gets the exact ,essage across that "yes, this is a game about those movies you saw and everyone's talking about!"

The thing i'm most stoked about the game is that they are unifying game mechanics, notably the force using ones... finally one system to rule them all ;-) i also like hit points too, garaunteeing that if a storm trooper shoots you from behind:

He's gonna be standing there alone. [he's higher level then all of you]
He's gonna be in dramatic pose. [because you can't one shot him either]
And your gonna recognise him again. [because he isn't gonna fall on your sabers!]

perfect for the feel of starwars over "he criticalled me, crap!"

[grubman]

I may be stepping right into their insidious cross promotion trap but I'm gonna pick up some of the figures; both because I've been looking at getting them for some time anyways and because they'll be handy for when the new rulebook comes out.

I've spent over $3,000 on them, have complete sets of all(except a few from the last one) and have scads of extras. One of the reasons I'm looking forward to the new edition is to help justify having plastic cases of these filling my closet when I only play the CMG with a few handfulls. :)

I'm hoping the spaceship battles rules in the RPG are a bit more exciting than the CMG, so I can use those minis tot he max too (Played the CMG once, not too thrilling IMHO).

Despite what some people think about such games, I find the CMGs a riot to collect, despite the cost. I guess I would have a different attitude if I couldn't afford it (But I worked hard and long to get to the point where I could IMHO!).

[Fresh Ninja]

$3,000

Dude.

[Gentleman Highwayman]

I know a lot of people like these sort of rules (like the condition tracker, which is the core subject of this thread), but plain old HPs work just fine for me with no muss or fuss.

I remember Monte Cook talking about SWd20 and VP/WP. He didn't like it because he thought it added more rules than were necessary. When asked how he would have handled it, he responded he'd have used HP as normal but that critical hits would go straight to Con damage. Damage track, threshold, triple hit points seems even more complex than VP/WP. A designer of the d20 system gave them a freebie to streamline the game and they ignored it. (Granted recalculating your HP after a crit could be a bit convoluted, but ability damage already exists in the game so you aren't re-inventing the wheel.)

But then again some of us old timers never bought into some of those meat and potatoes rules back in the day, so ... ;)

Iain.

[grubman]

Dude.


well, it is over a period of, what, 3 years or so. Cheaper than many peoples hobbies (or addictions) :). It's the only thing I collect, and is truely more fun that, say salt shakers or lawn gnomes (well, maybe not EVIL looking lawn gnomes).

I generally buy 3 cases when a new set comes out, then purchase anything else I need to fill the holes, keep all the cool "troop type" extras, and then sell the rest for peanuts.

[Eisenmann]

well, it is over a period of, what, 3 years or so. Cheaper than many peoples hobbies (or addictions) :). It's the only thing I collect, and is truely more fun that, say salt shakers or lawn gnomes (well, maybe not EVIL looking lawn gnomes).

I generally buy 3 cases when a new set comes out, then purchase anything else I need to fill the holes, keep all the cool "troop type" extras, and then sell the rest for peanuts.

Sooooooo, getting rid of anything useful these days, Grubman? I'm looking for my first hit of SW Mini crack. ;)

[ghost whistler]

It's Star Wars. Star Wars is only lethal when it needs to be.
I always thought the Clone Wars alone would make a great rpg; especially with stills from the series (the best thing since the original, hallowed, films). Does Saga Ed cover the Clone Wars or just those parts in the prequels?

[Old Geezer]

Dude.

Pfft.

You can spend $6000 on a set of golf clubs without breaking a sweat.

A 25 foot sailboat can approach $50,000.

Classic cars? Ha.

3 large on a hobby over a few years is chump change. Your average adult model railroader spends almost that much in a single year.

One reason RPGs will ALWAYS be a niche hobby is that they're too sodding cheap.

[Old Geezer]

I'm hoping the spaceship battles rules in the RPG are a bit more exciting than the CMG, so I can use those minis tot he max too (Played the CMG once, not too thrilling IMHO).

Yeah. I played it with 3 other uber-grognards.

Our analysis was identical: The most viable strategy is "roll high numbers". Nothing else even comes close.

[grubman]

Sooooooo, getting rid of anything useful these days, Grubman? I'm looking for my first hit of SW Mini crack. ;)

There is another set coming out late next month, so I'll have another large lot of extras up for grabs. Keep an eye out on the sales auctions page. :)

[Fresh Ninja]

Pfft.


That there are hobbies that cost more doesn't mean $ 3.000 isn't a significant sum of money.

[Fresh Ninja]

There is another set coming out late next month, so I'll have another large lot of extras up for grabs. Keep an eye out on the sales auctions page. :)

Enabler! :)

[grubman]

That there are hobbies that cost more doesn't mean $ 3.000 isn't a significant sum of money.

Considering the amount of money I put into my Money Market, Retirement Plan, and my two childrens college funds, I feel I have my bases covered enough that I can enjoy a few little plastic guys that bring me so much happiness. :)

...It doesn't hurt that I've been pulling 56 hour weeks for the last 4 months, and rarely less than 50 hours a week for the last 8 years.

Oh...I spend $10 a week on lotto tickets too...I get more payback from the SW minis ;)

[Fresh Ninja]

Considering the amount of money I put into my Money Market, Retirement Plan, and my two childrens college funds, I feel I have my bases covered enough that I can enjoy a few little plastic guys that bring me so much happiness. :)

...It doesn't hurt that I've been pulling 56 hour weeks for the last 4 months, and rarely less than 50 hours a week for the last 8 years.

Oh...I spend $10 a week on lotto tickets too...I get more payback from the SW minis ;)

No one's criticizing. I guess we just have different viewpoints of how much money to spend on little plastic dudes :-)

[Eisenmann]

Enabler! :)

LOL I'm definitely gonna keep an eye on the auction page. I also have a good FLGS nearby to fuel the collecting.

[Alnag]

Now, let's try to crawl back to the topic... :p

I like the idea of just five heroic classes. It is pretty uneasy to explain why, but I like it since I saw it in Engel d20. One leader class (noble in this case), one scout class (scout), one warrior class (soldier), one mystical class (Jedi), one trickster class (scoundrel). If fits well with idea, that gaming group usually consist of about five players. The movies/stories about "group" are usually about five characters which has usually these (or similar) five archetypes.

I am not so impressed by amount of species. I heard, there will be about 17?!? What the hell. Can't they just present few of them. Let's be generous and say ten. And the rest left for the inevitable supplements? I bet they would be able to find out with races are not as popular and could be omitted.

I like the merging of skills. I already thought about it and I really support it. What I am a bit sceptical is abandoing the skill points, because I liked them, athough the new system (as far as one can say from the mists of half-information) seems pretty interesting. I don't know, if it will be any good, but interesting it is. :D

Talent trees are cool and it will probably led to fewer (and hopefully more elaborated) prestige clasess in future supplements. There will be more talent trees instead, but I don't care that much about that. And it somehow bring to a conclusion the trends in D&D where these trends are present in kind of a proto form.

I am not sure about the Force (i liked the skill system pretty lot).

I definitely like the new concept of hit points and damage treshold. Again, it is similar to a mechanics, I thought about (and realized) as a house rule for my D&D group.

I am really interested in this Destiny mechanic. It might be the feather weight which will make me decied if I like the product or not.

The book seems to be pretty short (less than DnD PHB) and it must containt the same amout of information as books of triple that page count does for D&D + CS. Although the rules are bit more lite than before I think, that this must negatively express somewhere. I guess, that nebie GMs will have hard times with shortened chapter about gamemastering (I know, that had hard time even with D20 Modern, SW Revised Edition and pretty much many games, which adress this issue very briefly).

Anyway, I preorder the book on Amazon (first RPG buy this year for me) and I am pretty excited to see the postman with it in May (or rather June, it takes time to send it from behind the ocean). :p

[Brad Ellison]

Now, let's try to crawl back to the topic... :p

I like the idea of just five heroic classes.

Five is good. none would be better.

[grubman]

I like the idea of just five heroic classes.

I am not so impressed by amount of species.

I like the merging of skills.

Talent trees are cool and it will probably led to fewer (and hopefully more elaborated) prestige clasess in future supplements.


The book seems to be pretty short (less than DnD PHB) and it must containt the same amout of information as books of triple that page count does for D&D + CS. Although the rules are bit more lite than before I think, that this must negatively express somewhere. I guess, that nebie GMs will have hard times with shortened chapter about gamemastering (I know, that had hard time even with D20 Modern, SW Revised Edition and pretty much many games, which adress this issue very briefly).

Anyway, I preorder the book on Amazon (first RPG buy this year for me) and I am pretty excited to see the postman with it in May (or rather June, it takes time to send it from behind the ocean). :p

-I think 5 character classes are going to be much easier to manage, with the Talent trees allowing for more individuality...I just hope it's easy to create characters and not a exercise in tedium.

-You can never have too many alien races for a universe like Star Wars...I hope a new aliens and monsters book is one of the first supplements. Something comprehensive.

-The merging of skills is good. I think the first one to really do this is Savage Worlds, and the 1st one to do it with D20 was M&M...but everyone seems to ignore this.

-I hope so, I could do without Prestige classes altogether, I really don't understand the attraction of them, and think they waste far too much space in far too many supplements (IMHO).

-Star Wars doesn't have things like half a book full of spells or magic items. That's why it's shorter. Either way, V&V managed to present a complete and crunchy and playable RPG in 36 pages. Basic D&D in 64 pages, ect. ect. The only reason RPGs are fluffed out so much these days is because it's become a insustry norm and people expect it...not because it's really necessary. ;)

-Amazon!? Good luck on seeing it in May...or June...every book I preordered from Amazon is out in stores about 2 months before I finally recieve it.:(

[grubman]

Five is good. none would be better.

for you, some of us like them. :)

Besides, the last thing I want to see is every game where every character has some level of Force skill for some silly reason.

[TrippyHippy]

You can never have too many alien races for a universe like Star Wars...I hope a new aliens and monsters book is one of the first supplements. Something comprehensive.
I agree the corebook should be comprehensive, but most significant characters in the movie saga are human (with the occasional wookie).

-The merging of skills is good. I think the first one to really do this is Savage Worlds, and the 1st one to do it with D20 was M&M...but everyone seems to ignore this.Abbreviated skill lists for cinematic games has been done for at least as long as Feng Shui has been around. It's not new, but it is welcome.

-I hope so, I could do without Prestige classes altogether, I really don't understand the attraction of them, and think they waste far too much space in far too many supplements (IMHO).My major beef with prestige classes is that they frequently only provide an uneven blend of them in a gamebook - rather than trying to establish clear genre archetypes. That said, the appeal is providing more specialised/personalised options to the limited selection of core classes. In my opinion, if they provided 2-3 prestige classes associated with each core class, that would provide every option necessary for any gaming group.

-Star Wars doesn't have things like half a book full of spells or magic items. That's why it's shorter. Either way, V&V managed to present a complete and crunchy and playable RPG in 36 pages. Basic D&D in 64 pages, ect. ect. The only reason RPGs are fluffed out so much these days is because it's become a insustry norm and people expect it...not because it's really necessary. ;)
Hopefully the trend is shifting again. I'm getting tired of seeing 500+ page or multi-volume core rules these days. It's off-putting to casual gamers and actually makes the rules books significantly harder to use and read.

[Skywalker]

-You can never have too many alien races for a universe like Star Wars...I hope a new aliens and monsters book is one of the first supplements. Something comprehensive.

The Ultimate Alien Anthology looks to be about 99% still usable with Saga, and I seem to recall hearing Rodney say it would be a low priority as a result. I am personally happier to see the first sourcebook mentioned in a big book of starships. Starships of the Galaxy is in dire need of updating.

[Michael Hopcroft]

for you, some of us like them. :)

Besides, the last thing I want to see is every game where every character has some level of Force skill for some silly reason.

I see no setting reason, at least in the Rebellion Era, for there to be ANY PC Force users. In the Trilogy, it is made quite clear that there are only six living people in the entire Galaxy who have the ability or potential to be Force users, and all six appear in the movies. Most people on both sides of the conflict (the Imperials in particular) consider the Force itself to be a myth -- and, for the Imperials, a dangerous myth at that.

And there is the game balance issue in which non-Jedi are pointless to play, despite the fact that they're much more interesting characters. I have yet to see a Star Wars RPG that really has room for a Han Solo or Wedge to be effective or useful, or for a character like General Veers to be a credible threat (a rational, efficient, loyal and competent Imperial commander who eats vital Rebel command posts as a light snack).

[Brad Ellison]

I see no setting reason, at least in the Rebellion Era, for there to be ANY PC Force users.

Because people like playing Force users?

In the Trilogy, it is made quite clear that there are only six living people in the entire Galaxy who have the ability or potential to be Force users, and all six appear in the movies. Most people on both sides of the conflict (the Imperials in particular) consider the Force itself to be a myth -- and, for the Imperials, a dangerous myth at that.

But it's a freakin' huge Galaxy, and if Obi-wan and Yoda could survive, odds are others could have as well. Even setting aside EU (because the what's-canon debate gets more tiresome each time I see it) there's still a lot of wiggle room to allow for Force-wielding PCs.

And there is the game balance issue in which non-Jedi are pointless to play, despite the fact that they're much more interesting characters. I have yet to see a Star Wars RPG that really has room for a Han Solo or Wedge to be effective or useful, or for a character like General Veers to be a credible threat (a rational, efficient, loyal and competent Imperial commander who eats vital Rebel command posts as a light snack).

It can be done. Jedi may be hell on wheels when it comes to lightsaber-swinging and putting the whammy on people, but that doesn't automatically make them good pilots, or burglars, or trackers or negotiators (a Jedi probably will be good at some of these things, but not all of them.)

As a GM, create situations requiring talents the Jedi in the group lack. Give them enemies with cortosis armor that does jack against vibroblades and blasters. Make the guy they're trying to coax a favor from immune to mind tricks (for which there's a lot of precedent). Your Jedi may be a crackerjack melee fighter, but how well is he going to do in a dogfight?

[Christopher V. Brady]

As a GM, create situations requiring talents the Jedi in the group lack. Give them enemies with cortosis armor that does jack against vibroblades and blasters. Make the guy they're trying to coax a favor from immune to mind tricks (for which there's a lot of precedent). Your Jedi may be a crackerjack melee fighter, but how well is he going to do in a dogfight?

Quite well actually, as their enhanced reflexes and their minor precog abilities prove in the second, prequel trilogies. In fact, most Jedi were pilots, negotiators, investigators and all round troubleshooters. According to the movies.

[Brad Ellison]

Quite well actually, as their enhanced reflexes and their minor precog abilities prove in the second, prequel trilogies. In fact, most Jedi were pilots, negotiators, investigators and all round troubleshooters. According to the movies.

1) Qui-gon Jinn, Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan after Episode I, and the Jedi Council are all Masters. Anakin's the Chosen One. Obi-wan in the first film is a very talented student, but doesn't demonstrate any particular talent at anything other than fighting and maybe a little mechanical aptitude. These guys are all at least somewhat exceptional cases even by Jedi standards.

And the movies also have plenty of characters capable of keeping up with the Jedi. Jango Fett gave Obi-wan a pretty serious run for his money. Grievous uses cybernetics instead of the Force. Artoo-detoo, lowly mechanical mechanic, is presented in the prequels as a superhero.

And in the Star Wars trilogy that doesn't suck, Han, Chewie and Leia seem to do a pretty good job of keeping up with Luke.

2) In game terms, Jedi PCs aren't going to be omnicompetent, especially as they're likely to specialize along guardian, consular or sentinel lines.

[Dragon_Blooded]

I see no setting reason, at least in the Rebellion Era, for there to be ANY PC Force users. In the Trilogy, it is made quite clear that there are only six living people in the entire Galaxy who have the ability or potential to be Force users, and all six appear in the movies. Most people on both sides of the conflict (the Imperials in particular) consider the Force itself to be a myth -- and, for the Imperials, a dangerous myth at that.

Well, that's a problem if you care about SW canon more than you do about your players' fun. Next you'll be saying the PCs can't blow Cloud City or kill Vader because it would invalidate the movies. Personally, I think the setting should serve the players and the GM, and if one of them has a cool character concept that happens to be a Force user (or manages to kill Darth Vader in an epic starfighter dogfight, frex), to hell with canon, I say.

Even then, it's not really difficult to say "No Force user characters, please".

Quite well actually, as their enhanced reflexes and their minor precog abilities prove in the second, prequel trilogies. In fact, most Jedi were pilots, negotiators, investigators and all round troubleshooters. According to the movies.

Well, if you take character level as a measure of character power, most Jedi in the prequels were 3, 5 levels above the rest of the cast. Plus, they weren't characters in an RPG session, where doing everything by yourself kinda undermines the whole teamwork thing parties have going on. If you take a look at the original trilogy, where character power was more levelled, even über-Luke from RotJ needed help from his friends all the time.

Eduardo Penna

[bluejay]

I'm not sure they were the only 6 force users left in the Rebellion Era. Remember Yoda only mentions that Luke is the last of the Jedi in RotJ which is a good 4 years after A New Hope. So there's plenty of time for you to play a Jedi and then die before RotJ... :)

I would think the ideal mix would be the group at the end of ESB. Luke has some Jedi skills but still not enough to out-class everyone else.

By RotJ unfortunately Luke is really the party munchkin. In fact if it were an RPG his character would have reached the point where it was no fun to play with him.

Opening scene: his super-amazing character is the only one capable of rescuing the group. He pwns the skiff battle. Leia gets to kill Jabba but everyone else does the square root of nothing. I mean Lando spends most of the fight trying not to be eaten. Ok, yes Han does kill Boba but in the most ridiculous fashion possible. In terms of screen time Luke does the whole thing almost single handedly...

Endor: Luke's character is now so important that he's back seat driving Leia and taking out speederbikes by himself. He saves everyone from the Ewoks and then leaves the group to pursue his own more interesting subplot...

All in jest but I think that in Star Wars, players are looking to the movies for cues and RotJ would not be my example of a well-balanced group including a Jedi.

[Rachel Cartacos]

Impression I got of Star Wars is that R2 D2 and C3PO are the PC's, they're just stuck with a really bad GM who has his pet GMPC's do all the work.

R2 is played by the GM's boy/girlfriend, which is why R2 gets to do some important stuff every now and again. :D

[grubman]

Impression I got of Star Wars is that R2 D2 and C3PO are the PC's, they're just stuck with a really bad GM who has his pet GMPC's do all the work.

That's kind of funny, because I remember YEARS ago Lucas saying the story was about the adventures of C3PO and R2D2, that's whay they are prominent figures in the entire 9 (at the time) stories.

I guess that changed when Darth Vader proved to be so popular and his focus shifted.

[bluejay]

Yeah, the 2 droids are supposed to be the eyes through which the story is told... at least in Episode IV. They are very much based on two characters from Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress.

I think this approach lessened throughout the series although I felt he at least nodded to the fact with the droids being present at Anakin and Padme's wedding on Naboo.

[Fresh Ninja]

That's kind of funny, because I remember YEARS ago Lucas saying the story was about the adventures of C3PO and R2D2, that's whay they are prominent figures in the entire 9 (at the time) stories.

I guess that changed when Darth Vader proved to be so popular and his focus shifted.

Nah, it wasn't their story. The droids were just meant to be the viewpoint characters, not the heroes.

[Bahama'at]

I like the idea of just five heroic classes. It is pretty uneasy to explain why, but I like it since I saw it in Engel d20. One leader class (noble in this case), one scout class (scout), one warrior class (soldier), one mystical class (Jedi), one trickster class (scoundrel). If fits well with idea, that gaming group usually consist of about five players. The movies/stories about "group" are usually about five characters which has usually these (or similar) five archetypes.I see classes as primarily just to differentiate rates of Base Attack, and Defenses (once saves + defense) - just one part of the trinity of base mechanics, skills and cool stuff (magic, Force, etc).

I am not so impressed by amount of species. I heard, there will be about 17?!? What the hell. Can't they just present few of them.The problem with star wars is that if you present just 10 you will leave out someone's favourite race or ignore a whole era (the Vong, the Sith, etc). On the plus side if they keep the race entries pretty concise, you wouldn't need much space. Most aren't mechanically that different from one another anyway.

Talent trees are cool and it will probably led to fewer (and hopefully more elaborated) prestige clasess in future supplements. There will be more talent trees instead, but I don't care that much about that. And it somehow bring to a conclusion the trends in D&D where these trends are present in kind of a proto form.Ironically I remember when 3e was supposed to do this with feats - do away with the need for a whole lot of classes by replacing them with feat trees. But books of classes drive sales so it's a good start but the creep is inevitable.

I am not sure about the Force (i liked the skill system pretty lot).It was always strange to me - the d6 game was based on the original trilogy but handles the kung-fu-tastic Jedi of the prequels + Clone Wars better. The d20 system was built (or sold) around the prequels butthe skill + feat + class ability system really better modelled the less dynamic Jedi of the original movies. Go fig. I prefer the new system - the Jedi in my group is constantly at a loss for skill points, he's multiclassed into scoundrel just to get some points. This is particularly bad with Guardians since they followed (unfairly and slavishly) the "Fighter=no skill points" mentality from D&D without the upside of that (Fighter=more feats).

I was never happy with the d20 Jedi. The Force Adept was good but had some odd cultural/tradition specific things in there class abilities (talismans, comprehend languages) that were an odd fit.

I definitely like the new concept of hit points and damage treshold. Again, it is similar to a mechanics, I thought about (and realized) as a house rule for my D&D group.Cool. See, I just see them as being different - threshold and the condition track are a replacement for the chaotic mess of status effects, so it's one system, hit points is another system (for normal injuries) and the ability score damage is the third (for poisons).

I am really interested in this Destiny mechanic. It might be the feather weight which will make me decied if I like the product or not.Agreed - it could be wasted page space or it could be the twist of lemon that pushes it into greatness.

I won't pre-order (learned that lesson the hardway), but I'm thinking, Lesje's conversion aside, things should work out well.

- Ma'at

[Old Geezer]

This is particularly bad with Guardians since they followed (unfairly and slavishly) the "Fighter=no skill points" mentality from D&D without the upside of that (Fighter=more feats).

Word.

I had never played any d20 or any D&D > 1. I didn't realize how important skill points were going to be. My Guardian had only an average intelligence.

God, how I have been sucking wind for skill points.

Despite this I've had a lot more "cool Jedi moments" than the guy with the uber-twinked Jedi (who I think cheats as well) because, essentially, he's a coward and I play my character like he was the greatest Jedi in the galaxy.

[loconius]

Most people on both sides of the conflict (the Imperials in particular) consider the Force itself to be a myth -- and, for the Imperials, a dangerous myth at that.


Considering the empire was the shortest lived empire in the history of the cosmos [at something like 30 or 40 years lasting] most of the inhabitants were around during the time of the Jedi, so I would hardly thinking that people thought the force was a myth. Maybe "the idea of living force users" was a myth; but many people probably knew or saw a Jedi at some time in their lives.

I do however like the idea of using the rebellion era to redefine the force as an actual mystical power that is truly mysterious. eliminate force using players and have the interact with the force by observation, that way you can show all the wonder and awe of it... then allow players to pick up force talents or feats and maybe the Jedi class if they survive the empire... or join the Sith

Since the Sith were simply dark force practicing Jedi that corrupted a "Red Man" alien civilization, why do so many seem to think they are different. I mean sure they have different ideals, but they are two sides of the same coin:

"What would people call me if I wore Jedi robes, wield a Jedi weapon and indiscriminately killed people for fun? Sith baby, Sith... its gotta nice ring to it!"

[Bahama'at]

Since the Sith were simply dark force practicing Jedi that corrupted a "Red Man" alien civilization, why do so many seem to think they are different. I mean sure they have different ideals, but they are two sides of the same coin:

"What would people call me if I wore Jedi robes, wield a Jedi weapon and indiscriminately killed people for fun? Sith baby, Sith... its gotta nice ring to it!"Well, first off IIRC the "Red Man" race were called the Sith. The dark Jedi had no real name for themselves - they either called themselves Jedi or Bendu (the largest precursor tradition of the Jedi). But, less now and later but most certainly in the Old Republic period, they were not "two sides of the same coin" - generations of geographic and cultural isolation led the Sith to become very different in method and practice than the Jedi. The Jedi became an order devoted to serving the Republic, an outward focus. Sith ideology is a liberation ideology (one is "freed" according to their code), it imposes a moral imperative to be free, to be without binding obligation or expectations. They started out as the same-but-evil and became very different-and-evil, focusing on their alchemy, on their use of slaves and created abominations, the imposition of their will on the universe and on the Force.

Now with Darth Vader and other renunciates, Jedi memes do get filtered back into Sith lore, repollenating it and drag the Sith back to the "same-but-evil" model - discarding alchemy for technology, lightsabers for sith blades, speeders not warbirds or other mounts, you are becoming just an "evil Jedi" and less Sith.

It would be interesting to redo the "ancient Sith awakens to Palpatine's Empire" story, where the Sith looks at all the concessions to the Jedi way of things that they are angered and horrified and act against the Empire.

[loconius]

Well, first off IIRC the "Red Man" race were called the Sith. The dark Jedi had no real name for themselves - they either called themselves Jedi or Bendu (the largest precursor tradition of the Jedi). But, less now and later but most certainly in the Old Republic period, they were not "two sides of the same coin" - generations of geographic and cultural isolation led the Sith to become very different in method and practice than the Jedi. The Jedi became an order devoted to serving the Republic, an outward focus. Sith ideology is a liberation ideology (one is "freed" according to their code), it imposes a moral imperative to be free, to be without binding obligation or expectations. They started out as the same-but-evil and became very different-and-evil, focusing on their alchemy, on their use of slaves and created abominations, the imposition of their will on the universe and on the Force.

Now with Darth Vader and other renunciates, Jedi memes do get filtered back into Sith lore, repollenating it and drag the Sith back to the "same-but-evil" model - discarding alchemy for technology, lightsabers for sith blades, speeders not warbirds or other mounts, you are becoming just an "evil Jedi" and less Sith.

It would be interesting to redo the "ancient Sith awakens to Palpatine's Empire" story, where the Sith looks at all the concessions to the Jedi way of things that they are angered and horrified and act against the Empire.

tales of the jedi source book and a force book from wizards tells of a group of banshed jedi being exiled to a world with a primitive race known as the massassi. there they are worshiped as gods and the massassi learn the dark ways as the dark jedi teach them, hince the sith are born. we're both correct in a since.

it always interested me in bringing back the danger of "the sith rebirth" where the actual way of the sith is reborn, instead of what you said "same bu evil" sith. that would make a cool campaign.

my main concern is that the jedi class is able to emulate this. where Darth vader would have a whole bunch of jedi class levels with talents that make him a dark jedi... and a sith lord would have a bunch of jedi levels, but with different "sith" talents that made him actually feel different from darth vader. i hope the jedi class is generic and models more a "force user" and less a "padawan"

[Fresh Ninja]

Ioconius, I remember reading that a Sith Lord prestige class would be in the core book, but I can't find the post. Somewhere on the Wizards SW board probably.

[AusJeb]

It's not really a question of "comprehending" AoOs and the like.

I understand them and how to use them fine, but I've noticed that every d20 ruleset I admire has gotten rid of them, and was hoping that WotC wasn't going to be using the rpg as a means to sell more minis. Naive, that.

Well, it's hard to blame them for following the money.

Still, this sounds promising:

What does "miniatures friendly" mean?

Some promotional pieces about the book have included mention of more "miniatures friendly" rules. While miniatures will not be required to play the game, many of the changes to Saga Edition make integrating miniatures easier. For example, many of the combat illustrations now use miniatures to show how certain actions and maneuvers work. Likewise, the game makes references to "squares" for movement, and we have adapted some of the more streamlined rules from the Star Wars Miniatures Game for the combat system, such as the way cover works. If you choose to use miniatures, the game will allow for much smoother integration.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/rpgfaqsaga

There are some interesting changes in this new edition: streamlined classes, talent trees, streamlined skills, new Force mechancis, etc. But, I'm not sure if it is enough to overcome my resistance to purchasing a 3d system for Star Wars or my cooled interest in the setting.

[Old Geezer]

. But, I'm not sure if it is enough to overcome my resistance to purchasing a 3d system for Star Wars or my cooled interest in the setting.

Sadly I will probably buy it simply because the first two editions taste like ass.

No, that's not true. They taste much worse than at least some ass.

[novastar]

Sadly I will probably buy it simply because the first two editions taste like ass.

No, that's not true. They taste much worse than at least some ass.
I'm not going to ask what taste tests you've had to do in your life, Geezer. :eek:

Mine usually amounted to "Coke or Pepsi?"... :p

Is it me, or do the "Talent Tree's" sound a lot like "Feats! But a new name for them!" to anyone else? :confused:

[loconius]

I'm not going to ask what taste tests you've had to do in your life, Geezer. :eek:

Mine usually amounted to "Coke or Pepsi?"... :p

Is it me, or do the "Talent Tree's" sound a lot like "Feats! But a new name for them!" to anyone else? :confused:

they are feats that are specific to classes in question... a scoundrel can't pick up jedi sentinel talents unless he multiclasses into jedi, much like d20 modern. and they are much more true to the name "feat" as they allow you to usually do something that no other classs can do [where as feats usually eliminate a penalty or give you a bonus... and are available to every class]

[Skywalker]

Is it me, or do the "Talent Tree's" sound a lot like "Feats! But a new name for them!" to anyone else? :confused:

They come from D20 Modern. Think of them as class specific feats and you are not far wrong.

[AusJeb]

They come from D20 Modern. Think of them as class specific feats and you are not far wrong.

Or as alternative paths for class abilities. A good comparison is the D&D Ranger who effectively has two talent trees: Archery and Two Weapon. Only, in d20 M you get to choose your new talent at each odd numbered level. For example:

Talents
At 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, the Fast hero selects a talent from the following talent trees. Some trees have a set order that must be followed, while others provide a list to choose from. As long as the hero qualifies, he or she can select freely from any and all talent trees. No talent can be selected more than once unless expressly indicated.

Defensive Talent Tree
The Fast hero gains the ability to improve his or her innate defensive talents as the hero attains new levels.
- Evasion: If the Fast hero is exposed to any effect that normally allows a character to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, the Fast hero suffers no damage if he or she makes a successful saving throw. Evasion can only be used when wearing light armor or no armor.
- Uncanny Dodge 1: The Fast hero retains his or her Dexterity bonus to Defense regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by a hidden attacker. (The hero still loses his or her Dexterity bonus to Defense if the hero is immobilized.)
Prerequisite: Evasion.
- Uncanny Dodge 2: The Fast hero can no longer be flanked; the hero can react to opponents on opposite sides of him or herself as easily as he or she can react to a single attacker.
Prerequisites: Evasion, uncanny dodge 1.
- Defensive Roll: The Fast hero can roll with a potentially lethal attack to take less damage from it. When the Fast hero would be reduced to 0 hit points or less by damage in combat (from a ranged or melee attack), the Fast hero can attempt to roll with the damage.
A Fast hero spends 1 action point to use this talent. Once the point is spent, the hero makes a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, he or she takes only half damage. The Fast hero must be able to react to the attack to execute a defensive roll—if the hero is immobilized, he or she can’t use this talent.
Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the Fast hero’s evasion talent doesn’t apply to the defensive roll.
Prerequisites: Evasion, uncanny dodge 1.
- Opportunist: The Fast hero can spend 1 action point to use this talent. Once the point is spent, the hero can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the Fast hero’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a Fast hero with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use this talent more than once per round.
Prerequisite: Evasion.

Increased Speed Talent Tree
The Fast hero can increase his or her natural base speed.
- Increased Speed: The Fast hero’s base speed increases by 5 feet.
- Improved Increased Speed: The Fast hero’s base speed increases by 5 feet. This talent stacks with increased speed (10 feet total).
Prerequisite: Increased speed.
- Advanced Increased Speed: The Fast hero’s base speed increases by 5 feet. This talent stacks with increased speed and improved increased speed (15 feet total).
Prerequisites: Increased speed, improved increased speed.

[Old Geezer]

I'm not going to ask what taste tests you've had to do in your life, Geezer. :eek:



When I say "I've been to the Outer Rim," I really mean it.

[NPC Brown Cow]

I'm not sure they were the only 6 force users left in the Rebellion Era. Remember Yoda only mentions that Luke is the last of the Jedi in RotJ which is a good 4 years after A New Hope. So there's plenty of time for you to play a Jedi and then die before RotJ... :)

It may be true that there are no Jedi left, but that says nothing for force users.

All Jedi are Force Users but not all Force Users are Jedi. ;)

Considering the empire was the shortest lived empire in the history of the cosmos [at something like 30 or 40 years lasting] most of the inhabitants of the core worlds were around during the time of the Jedi, so I would hardly thinking that people thought the force was a myth. Maybe "the idea of living force users" was a myth; but many people probably knew or saw a Jedi at some time in their lives.
Fixed that for ya. ;)

Jedi were very active in the core worlds, but out side that they were mostly thought a myth.

[Balbinus]

Considering the empire was the shortest lived empire in the history of the cosmos [at something like 30 or 40 years lasting] most of the inhabitants were around during the time of the Jedi, so I would hardly thinking that people thought the force was a myth. Maybe "the idea of living force users" was a myth; but many people probably knew or saw a Jedi at some time in their lives.

I do however like the idea of using the rebellion era to redefine the force as an actual mystical power that is truly mysterious. eliminate force using players and have the interact with the force by observation, that way you can show all the wonder and awe of it... then allow players to pick up force talents or feats and maybe the Jedi class if they survive the empire... or join the Sith

Since the Sith were simply dark force practicing Jedi that corrupted a "Red Man" alien civilization, why do so many seem to think they are different. I mean sure they have different ideals, but they are two sides of the same coin:

"What would people call me if I wore Jedi robes, wield a Jedi weapon and indiscriminately killed people for fun? Sith baby, Sith... its gotta nice ring to it!"


The canon is inconsistent, if you go by the original trilogy it is quite plain that people had not encountered jedi within their lifetimes, they were a myth which people didn't much believe in.

That makes no sense with the sequels, but then what does?

[Jim DelRosso]

The canon is inconsistent, if you go by the original trilogy it is quite plain that people had not encountered jedi within their lifetimes, they were a myth which people didn't much believe in.

That makes no sense with the sequels, but then what does?

This bit never caught me as being terribly inconsistent. There were never a lot of Jedi, relatively speaking, so I imagine that a vast majority of people had never seen one in person (and, anachronistic as it seems, I never got the impression that the Republic or the Empire had much in the way of mass communication, either).

Considering their isolation and relative scarcity, I never had difficulty buying that the Jedi could become mythical in a single generation.

[Fresh Ninja]

The canon is inconsistent, if you go by the original trilogy it is quite plain that people had not encountered jedi within their lifetimes, they were a myth which people didn't much believe in.

That makes no sense with the sequels, but then what does?

20 years of institutional, galaxy-wide propaganda, coupled with the fact that there are thousands of inhabited worlds, explain this quite nicely.

If the media and the government conspired to tell, over and over again, for the next 20 years, that the UN Blue Helments were just a myth, then most people would believe it, even if they had seen them with their own eyes.

[Balbinus]

This bit never caught me as being terribly inconsistent. There were never a lot of Jedi, relatively speaking, so I imagine that a vast majority of people had never seen one in person (and, anachronistic as it seems, I never got the impression that the Republic or the Empire had much in the way of mass communication, either).

Considering their isolation and relative scarcity, I never had difficulty buying that the Jedi could become mythical in a single generation.

I'd accept that if I was one of your players, so fair enough.

Upthread someone answered the original point anyway, the reason why we have force users is that players want to play them, you then just need to work out why that's ok in game.

[RedFox]

I think of it this way:

The Jedi were a mystical cult of warrior knights, answerable to the Republic in times of need but ultimately beholden only to themselves. They'd been around for thousands of years, and achieved a kind of reverence and awe in the population of the galaxy at large despite their relatively small numbers. Most people had never seen a jedi, and those that had likely saw them only on holonet news reports about the Clone Wars, where they were made into propaganda icons.

Skip forward twenty years or so. These knights errant had tried to usurp the Republic and were forcibly disbanded. There was obviously a cover-up as to the method and extent of this (see: Clone troopers waving away Senator Organa in Ep. III). But hey if someone told me that the super navy seal ultra rangers with magic powers were some crazed cult, and we'd never heard from them again in twenty years or so, I'd probably react like most folks in the original trilogy:

Common folks don't believe they exist anymore, but are extremely wary when someone flashes a lightsaber around.
People generally don't believe all that mumbo jumbo about the Force, unless confronted with direct evidence.
People who've likely had direct experience with the Jedi or more concrete historical knowledge outside of Imperial propoganda lines deal with them much as you would expect; they don't believe someone's a jedi off the bat (they were all annihilated) but if confronted they know how to deal with them. See: Jaba the Hutt.

The most vital thing to reconciliate one's understanding here is that the Galaxy is extremely large and the numbers of jedi were relatively few. Moreover, they were larger than life characters that by their very nature strain credulity.

[novastar]

I'm also curious if after the destruction of the Shao-Lin Temple, 20 years later, people weren't a little dubious of anyone claiming to have been taught Shao-Lin Kung Fu...

[devlin1]

20 years of institutional, galaxy-wide propaganda, coupled with the fact that there are thousands of inhabited worlds, explain this quite nicely.

If the media and the government conspired to tell, over and over again, for the next 20 years, that the UN Blue Helments were just a myth, then most people would believe it, even if they had seen them with their own eyes.
Twenty years? Hell, we'd buy it after five.

I think, as others have said, that a combination of an Empire-controlled HoloNet and the sheer size of the Empire make for a largely uninformed populace outside the Mid Rim (or maybe even the Core Worlds).

[loconius]

Twenty years? Hell, we'd buy it after five.

I think, as others have said, that a combination of an Empire-controlled HoloNet and the sheer size of the Empire make for a largely uninformed populace outside the Mid Rim (or maybe even the Core Worlds).

But the empire didn’t control the holonet before the empire was formed, it was ass widely used as the internet now [keep in mind that Billy Joe Bob in the middle of BFE Virginia probably has never used the internet, so it isn’t THAT widespread.] with an information base like that, and thousands of years of Jedi intervention [remembering the tales of the Jedi books] the core worlds where the empire was strongest and had the most propaganda [I remember books saying the empire didn’t bother with the rim worlds as much as the core ones] would be most likely to have memories or old “Bittorrent” recordings of Jedi battles caught by an amateur recorder, or an assassination “MPEG” where imperial soldiers behead a bunch of tortured Jedi POWs. :-P

We the public aren’t as sheepish as some might think. I think V for Vendetta had it dead on, most people in the core worlds would be like:

“Yeah remember that one video I had with the Jedi deflecting that one clone troopers shots into his squad mates…”
“Shhhh, here comes a stormtrooper.”
“Oh uh long um uh live the uh Empire… yeah!” while Hitler saluting the trooper.
After trooper leaves, “that was close.”
“Yeah for sure…”

I love the Rebellion Era for sure... so many opportunities!!

[Niles]

How Many Jedi are there at the begining of the prequels? A thousand?

Lets be Generous and say there are ten-thousand Jedi.

Let's also be generous and say the stated figure of a million inhabited worlds in the Star wars is an exaggeration let's say it's half that and only a quarter of those are densely populated ( with say a billion or more residents)

That puts the galactic population at low end maybe 150-200,000,000,000,000

I'd imagine most of those people would have little enough contact with a group of ten thousand people largely concentrated on the capitol planet, that they could believe they were mythical.

And it's not like there's any evidence