[D&D 3.5/Eberron] Black Powder Weapons?

[Tao Jones]

Where, if anywhere, are the rules for black powder weapons in D&D 3.5? I've only looked in the PHB, granted, but that's where they were in 3.0, so I figure the lack of inclusion there might indicate they're not in 3.5 at all.

While we're at it, if they are in 3.5, what's the story about black powder in Eberron? Were there harquebussiers and cannons used in the Last War? Who invented the stuff, and who employed it most?

EDIT: I guess the powder weapons were only in the 2nd edition PHB, not in 3.0.

[Agrias oaks]

Black powder is not in Eberron. It wouldn't need to be developed much, when a basic regiment of Magewrights could each be given a wand of Magic missile or Fireball, and thus have as much firepower, if not more than black powder.

However, black powder can be cool in Eberron, so go with it. Just say it was a cannith development during the last war, a precursor to the warforged.

[LostPassWord]

Flintlocks are in the 3.5 DMG. They even have rules for modern weapons with the warning that a GM should use real world modern weapons as relics.

[Asmodai]

Yep. Black powder doesn't exist in Eberron by default, primarily because crossbows are cooler.

The rules for black powder weapons are (like in 3.0) in the DMG.

[Tao Jones]

Yeah, Gizmit (who shouldn't read this) pointed out the rules for me in time.

I'm thinking of having black powder weapons imported from Riedra into Q'Barra...used not because they're terribly effective, but because a peculiar band of retired mercenaries is fond of the explosions...

[Agent Oracle]

Renaissance Weapons: page 145.

Pistol: 250 gp. Damage 1d8(s)/1d10(m) Crit x3, Range increment: 50ft. Weight 3lbs. Damage type piercing.

Musket: 500gp: 1d10/1d12, crit x3, 150 feet, 10 lbs. Piercing.

Now, d20 modern makes the damage for pistols 2d6-2d8, and rifles 2d8-2d12 depending on caliber.

[Softmetalgazebo]

My take would be black powder weapons were experimented with and found to just not be as useful as magic in war. Especially when one side fields armies of skeletons and firearms are piercing ;)

Though, to carry it a bit further from a thematic standpoint, they just don't carry the same narrative oomph in Ebberon they would in say, Forgotten Realms. It isn't taking power from the hands of high and mighty wizards and putting it into the hands of the common man. The common man can ride the Lightning rail. The common man can become a Magewright as easily as he can become, say, a blacksmith. Power in Eberron comes from things like Armies and Money.

[Killer GM]

I always figured that House Cannith clamped down hard on anyone developing gunpower...after all, that would be a serious threat to their stranglehold on the weapons industry.

[Tao Jones]

I always figured that House Cannith clamped down hard on anyone developing gunpower...after all, that would be a serious threat to their stranglehold on the weapons industry.
Yeah...though someone outside their ability to clamp down upon (like the Riedrans) could still develop it.

[Keefe the Thief]

I would simply create some kind of "acceptance pressure" for the five nations to integrate blackpowder weapons into their armies. For instance: The Hags of Droaam begin to arm their gnoll infantry with blackpowder weapons > Breland steals the technology and creates some blackpowder units > the other five nations get nervous and all try to adopt the new technology > house Cannith is pissed > profit for the DM. ;)

[Tao Jones]

Also, if they become widespread and Cannith can't stop them, the next thing to do is to start making and selling them, better and cheaper than Riedran imports or whatever.

As for what I'm doing...(spoiler space for Gizmit and any of the rest of the group who might be lurking)...






I'm putting these weapons in the hands of one of my favorite monsters of yore, the Giff. The group's in Q'Barra right now, and will soon find themselves having to head for Wyrmwatch, the refugee camp that's run by puritan Silver Flame followers. One of their chapel's most prestigious patrons is General Mayombe, who, along with a large number of his tribesmen, was recruited out of Xen'Drik by Thrane to fight in the Last War. They were fairly primitive at the time, but took to the technology and glory of "civilized" warfare and the Silver Flame faith quite well. After the War, he followed some of the humans he'd befriended to Q'Barra; he was head of security for a dragonshard mining camp, then ended up in sole possession after the previous owner was ambushed in the night.

Bascially, I'm going for a giant, hippo-headed Idi Amin as the main villain in this story.

[Jon Chung]

The question is, given that magical weaponry is relatively easy to mass-produce in Eberron, why would anyone use primitive 1d10/1d12 blackpowder weaponry when they can have eternal wands of fireball, which can place a 5d6 blast of incandescent destruction 40 feet wide with perfect accuracy anywhere within 600 feet of the user? Or eternal wands of magic missile, very cheap and each capable of killing or severly maiming the average trooper with the same perfect accuracy?

Given the cost of importing these things all the way from Sarlona or building the necessary infrastructure to manufacture them and their ammunition en masse, setting up the supply chain to feed that infrastructure, plus the training required to get a functional bunch of musketeers with supporting gunsmiths, you could probably buy a whole lot of magical toys off your local House Cannith enclave... and with the Magewright NPC class available to practically everybody in the Five Nations, you won't really need to train people to use them either.

Plus, when you actually get into combat with them, Napoleonic tactics are going to fail miserably against area-effect evocations (especially with the gunpowder storage + fire magic problem), so you'd have to use a modern-style combat doctrine, which isn't very likely to work with old-style blackpowder weapons.

[Unseenlibrarian]

And with the Magewright NPC class available to practically everybody in the Five Nations, you won't really need to train people to use them either.


Y'know, suddenly, the high levels of Magewrights in random villages in the Eberron city generator makes sense. They're _discharged war vets._

"You! You've got a slightly above average intelligence. Congratulations son, you qualify for Magewright training. Here is your eternal wand. Point this end at the enemy."

[Jon Chung]

Y'know, suddenly, the high levels of Magewrights in random villages in the Eberron city generator makes sense. They're _discharged war vets._

"You! You've got a slightly above average intelligence. Congratulations son, you qualify for Magewright training. Here is your eternal wand. Point this end at the enemy."

That's a good observation. I expect the armies of the 5N were using a lot of them by the end of the Last War. One magewright with an eternal wand of fireballs can burn a lot of enemy soldiers to ash from a pretty safe distance, assuming they clumped together like idiots. :)

Their combat tactics probably resemble ours more than they resemble anything from the medieval or Renaissance eras. Move in small squads, stay in cover, disperse, take potshots, keep moving...

[ExcessiveKnife]

The thing that can level a gun out is the fact that you don't need to go through conventional sources to get them; if your village has a bellsmith and a locksmith (or a particularly overt rogue), they can make the working parts, the balls can be made from just about any metal, and gunpowder can be made from charcoal and saltpeter (extractable from a number of sources, including human and animal waste.)

As for machine complexity and expense, that is a problem if you are trying to get fancy and build a more advanced black powder weapon, and not starting out at the ground floor with a matchlock. At the end of the day, it's just a barrel with a touchhole and a flaming length of hemp, and perhaps a stock and a simple action (which looks and operates more like a crossbow trigger than a modern firearm).

Tactics wise, against a magic weilding force, you are ******, but slightly less ****** than before you had guns. Ambush tactics will be the order of the day, with large bore shotgun-style weapons being the preference. If the local smiths are skilled enough, precision fire is an option, and could be quite handy for liquidating officers and spellcasters.

[Jon Chung]

The thing that can level a gun out is the fact that you don't need to go through conventional sources to get them; if your village has a bellsmith and a locksmith (or a particularly overt rogue), they can make the working parts, the balls can be made from just about any metal, and gunpowder can be made from charcoal and saltpeter (extractable from a number of sources, including human and animal waste.)

As for machine complexity and expense, that is a problem if you are trying to get fancy and build a more advanced black powder weapon, and not starting out at the ground floor with a matchlock. At the end of the day, it's just a barrel with a touchhole and a flaming length of hemp, and perhaps a stock and a simple action (which looks and operates more like a crossbow trigger than a modern firearm).

This is assuming the population knows how to construct them in the first place, and that they are needed. In this scenario, you are trying to introduce guns (presumably at the most basic level, which are not very good) to a society with Final Fantasy airships, an express train that runs on lightning rails, military regiments of flying battlemages, war veterans coming home with their trusty eternal wand of magic missile and an entire race of sentient war-droids being recently emancipated.

Tactics wise, against a magic weilding force, you are ******, but slightly less ****** than before you had guns. Ambush tactics will be the order of the day, with large bore shotgun-style weapons being the preference. If the local smiths are skilled enough, precision fire is an option, and could be quite handy for liquidating officers and spellcasters.

The issue here is that in this setting, magic weaponry (such as the aforementioned wand of fireballs, which incinerates everybody in a perfect 40 foot circle placed anywhere within 600 feet of the user twice a day), is readily available, as there is an entire 'megacorporation' dedicated to manufacturing them, and has been manufacturing them for a couple centuries of war. Unless deliberately destroyed, these things last forever.

So, if you can put your hands on a good supply of them, why would you need primitive guns? Wands of fireball and lightning bolt don't require aiming or ammunition, hit a lot harder than bullets, and will rip gaping holes in enemy troops stupid enough to bunch up. Wands of magic missile are dime a dozen, and a few of those will take out an officer with flawless accuracy.

For a force to fight without magic here is like a force of modern guerillas fighting without guns. They're common enough to not be special.

[Gentleman Highwayman]

The question is, given that magical weaponry is relatively easy to mass-produce in Eberron, why would anyone use primitive 1d10/1d12 blackpowder weaponry when they can have eternal wands of fireball, which can place a 5d6 blast of incandescent destruction 40 feet wide with perfect accuracy anywhere within 600 feet of the user?

Detect Magic. A Rogue sneak up behind a diplomat and places the barrel into their ribcage and ...

But basically Sharn: City of Towers basically implies that wands are the Eberron equivalent of Star Wars blasters. They have a wandslinger as a PrC.

Iain.

[Jon Chung]

Detect Magic. A Rogue sneak up behind a diplomat and places the barrel into their ribcage and ...

A plain old adamantine knife works just fine for that sort of situation, and you aren't limited to one shot for a primitive pistol design. :)

Besides, that thing's the ultimate lockpick. Fantastic investment.

[Killer GM]

Detect Magic. A Rogue sneak up behind a diplomat and places the barrel into their ribcage and ...


Yeah, but at that range, a knife works just as well and is a hell of a lot quieter.

[Thanatos02]

The popularity of guns as opposed to magic is going to be based heavily on principles of price and availability. Even when you can mass-produce magic, if the ration of price/effectiveness is anywhere close to in the favor of firearms, you might see a contingent of rifleman on a battlefield somewhere.

The major problem with firearms in bog-standard D&D is reload times and effectiveness against magic of any sort. Firearms during the middle ages required massed volleys, and a massed group of people packing highly explosive powder is just asking for something as simple as Flaming Hands to wipe them off the planet. Considering Magic > Massed Troops, though, any time there's an experianced magic-user on the field, it's time to reconfigure your troops anyhow, so that's not really as critical as you'd expect.

The other real problem is that your average soldier is going to be a Commoner, if we think historically. They're extras, and average 2 HP. To a Commoner, there's no difference between an arrow, and bolt, or a musket ball, so the extra damage guns have over crossbows is moot. The average career soldier is considerably more impressive, averaging 4 HP. They can actually take your average short bow's arrow to the chest just once and survive. This pushes the damage in favor of X-Bows and guns. You only reach a point where avg. damage increase moves in favor of guns once we hit 1st level Fighters, and then you only get probably one shot unless you've got repeating rifles. (Which you don't according to the DMG, though fixing it is as simple as saying you do anyhow...)

For Giff, I think the best idea would be bracers of pistols, Quick Draw, and... well, ranged attack Feats. Deploy them against more experianced, normal troops and you'll have a group that's in it's element, I think. Don't forget black powder bombs for area control!

[xiawarr]

Pick-up D20 Past - they give stats and rules for black-powder weapons and at least two of the settings described could be blended into Eberron in some fashion. The "Age of Adventure" (swashbuckling pirates with magic) and "Shadowstalkers" (victorian era monster-hunters) could both have ideas lifted from for Eberron adventures.

[Agent Oracle]

Just a point: I've run a D&D world where there were "black powder" weapons, it was based heavily off the Mage Knight setting though, where one side had monopolized the control over offensive magics.

[Tao Jones]

House Cannith could produce lots of wands (not mass production by the actual definition, however), but wasn't Cannith pretty much dealing only with Cyre during the war? Other nations might be looking for something to compete with that.

[Unseenlibrarian]

House Cannith could produce lots of wands (not mass production by the actual definition, however), but wasn't Cannith pretty much dealing only with Cyre during the war? Other nations might be looking for something to compete with that.

Nope. Cannith was selling to all comers. It's why Breland was in favor of Warforged Emancipation (Bulwark, he who may or may not be the lord of blades, saved the life of their King.) Even the Karnaathi bought from Cannith, and they had undead troops.

[Softmetalgazebo]

Y'know, suddenly, the high levels of Magewrights in random villages in the Eberron city generator makes sense. They're _discharged war vets._

"You! You've got a slightly above average intelligence. Congratulations son, you qualify for Magewright training. Here is your eternal wand. Point this end at the enemy."

I think it pretty much states as much in the book. Magewrights were guys from the war taught /just/ enough magic to use magic items and fufill basic magic doing stuff, like repair spells and so on. And when they got back from the war, they filtered into everyday life.

Though, on reflection, I'm pretty sure that Eberron war tactics'd be around WWI trench warfare type of stuff. Lots of hunkering down for the charge, then over the breach for a face full of cloudkill and fireballs until some of you get into the next trench for the brutal close work to begin.

And on the subject of the Dragonmarked houses, they mosty stayed neutral to avoid having the various kingdoms turn on them and wipe them out.

[KoboldLord]

The question is, given that magical weaponry is relatively easy to mass-produce in Eberron, why would anyone use primitive 1d10/1d12 blackpowder weaponry when they can have eternal wands of fireball, which can place a 5d6 blast of incandescent destruction 40 feet wide with perfect accuracy anywhere within 600 feet of the user? Or eternal wands of magic missile, very cheap and each capable of killing or severly maiming the average trooper with the same perfect accuracy?

For starters, reloading a black powder musket takes only a few rounds. You can lead off every skirmish with a massed volley before resorting to melee weapons, and virtually any breather at all allows you to fire off another volley. If you have some noncombatants, you can make them do the reloading and fire off a shot every round almost indefinitely.

In contrast, an eternal wand has exactly two shots, and it takes 24 bloody hours to reload one. An equivalent to firearms, eternal wands are not.

If we assume that black powder weapons are either a simple weapon or are a proficiency granted by a single level of a particular non-martial class, they hold a role similar to the crossbow. In exchange for a longer reload time, they deal more damage.

Similarly, black powder bombs are a variant for alchemist's fire users. They deal more damage for a minimal increase in cost, but are more hazardous to carry.

I don't see why Eberron can't have black powder weapons (and indeed, I think we need some better alchemical items to choose from) but they really won't have the impact in Eberron that they had in the real world.

[Tao Jones]

For starters, reloading a black powder musket takes only a few rounds. You can lead off every skirmish with a massed volley before resorting to melee weapons, and virtually any breather at all allows you to fire off another volley. If you have some noncombatants, you can make them do the reloading and fire off a shot every round almost indefinitely.

In contrast, an eternal wand has exactly two shots, and it takes 24 bloody hours to reload one. An equivalent to firearms, eternal wands are not.

If we assume that black powder weapons are either a simple weapon or are a proficiency granted by a single level of a particular non-martial class, they hold a role similar to the crossbow. In exchange for a longer reload time, they deal more damage.

Similarly, black powder bombs are a variant for alchemist's fire users. They deal more damage for a minimal increase in cost, but are more hazardous to carry.

I don't see why Eberron can't have black powder weapons (and indeed, I think we need some better alchemical items to choose from) but they really won't have the impact in Eberron that they had in the real world.
Firing a musket, per the DMG, requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat...or, you could just take the -4, which probably is what most real-world militiamen did (figuratively speaking). Since they're firing at a massed formation rather than an individual target, you're bound to hit something that you want to kill, even with the penalty. Sharpshooters and veteran soldiers would probably have the feat, plus likely a level or two of Fighter.

[Jon Chung]

For starters, reloading a black powder musket takes only a few rounds. You can lead off every skirmish with a massed volley before resorting to melee weapons, and virtually any breather at all allows you to fire off another volley. If you have some noncombatants, you can make them do the reloading and fire off a shot every round almost indefinitely.

In contrast, an eternal wand has exactly two shots, and it takes 24 bloody hours to reload one. An equivalent to firearms, eternal wands are not.

With this in mind, why not use a crossbow? They're Simple weapons instead of Exotic weapons, fire once every other round, and require no volatile gunpowder stores which some cheeky bastard with a fire cantrip can set off.

If we assume that black powder weapons are either a simple weapon or are a proficiency granted by a single level of a particular non-martial class, they hold a role similar to the crossbow. In exchange for a longer reload time, they deal more damage.

When comparing damage over time, the crossbow's Simple status, faster reload time and the fact that it will kill the average level 1 commoner in one hit on average regardless push it ahead.

Similarly, black powder bombs are a variant for alchemist's fire users. They deal more damage for a minimal increase in cost, but are more hazardous to carry.

I don't see why Eberron can't have black powder weapons (and indeed, I think we need some better alchemical items to choose from) but they really won't have the impact in Eberron that they had in the real world.

It would be interesting, but I don't see the Five Nations developing the technology independently. They really have no need to.

[Tao Jones]

With this in mind, why not use a crossbow? They're Simple weapons instead of Exotic weapons, fire once every other round, and require no volatile gunpowder stores which some cheeky bastard with a fire cantrip can set off.

When comparing damage over time, the crossbow's Simple status, faster reload time and the fact that it will kill the average level 1 commoner in one hit on average regardless push it ahead.

It would be interesting, but I don't see the Five Nations developing the technology independently. They really have no need to.
Powder itself is more versatile; if you need bombs, you can make it into bombs. If you need to fire muskets, pistols or cannon, it does the job. You can't fashion 10 crossbow bolts together to make a ballista shot, or cut them up and make a crossbowbomb.

A bunch of crossbowmen can take out ranks of commoners, but muskets do hell of more damage...in real life, this helped against armored opponents, but that doesn't matter in D&D. Also, if you're shooting airships out of the sky, you'll want solid cannon shot, or grapeshot to cut down charging ranks of militia.

The fire cantrip thing is another possible benefit; in real life, matchlock users were in trouble if their matches went out rom slamming into the pan wrong; with one magic-user backing up a rank of gunners, when he's not lobbing fireballs, he can use up his 0-level spells relighting matches and keeping those soldiers firing.

[Ashikaider]

What about the guns from the Iron Kingdoms setting? the powder in those guns didn't burn (but could get wet, yet still dry out to be reasonably useful). and only exploded when mixed (it's a two-part alchemical compound).

[Ambrogino]

For Giff, I think the best idea would be bracers of pistols, Quick Draw, and... well, ranged attack Feats.

I presume you mean bandoleers rather than bracers. Brace means pair, and a bracer is a synonym of vanbrace - the bit of armour that covers you from wrist to elbow. But that aside, the range on a Black Powder pistol is atrocious - British Officers in the Napoleonic were advised to use theirs solely for the purpose of mercy-killing their horse if it broke a leg. If you actually mean a brace, then the increased range of a musket or rifle's probably enough to reload and fire again in anyway, and you can't (sensibly) fit a bayonet on a pistol. Your average soldier's going to have one, maybe two feats - does he want to spend one on Quick Draw if he needs to spend another on Exotic Weapon Proficiency? For that matter, can he even take 2 feats that need BAB +1?

[Softmetalgazebo]

The point remains though that, compared to the weapons currently in the armories of the five nations, it's one that probably seems like more trouble than it's worth. However, I could see them as a piece of exotica or a curiosity. Or a colour item to give a bit of oomph to some character or another.

That said, I do think a Reidran source for them is a good option. Given the reliance on psionics there and the fact that they haven't had the 'hot house' of the Last War to develop a huge selection of magical ways to kill people with (Which, I might add, is something I like about Eberron. It gives a reason why most spells are devoted in some way to war.), along with their focus on stability and artisanship, they've likely have developed such things. Enough to keep unruly tribesman in line without threatening their Inspired masters.

[KoboldLord]

Firing a musket, per the DMG, requires an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat...or, you could just take the -4, which probably is what most real-world militiamen did (figuratively speaking). Since they're firing at a massed formation rather than an individual target, you're bound to hit something that you want to kill, even with the penalty. Sharpshooters and veteran soldiers would probably have the feat, plus likely a level or two of Fighter.

If the DMG was correct, we'd never have switched over to guns in the real world, either. Requiring an Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use a firearm is clearly an intentional attempt to prevent players from routinely wanting to use them. It follows, then, that if you do want firearms to be a player option, as opposed to a fake-option used to shut up players who want to do something you don't want them to do, it will be necessary to alter the DMG rules to make them at least vaguely useful. Removing the completely arbitrary and surreal designation as an Exotic Weapon would do just that.

[loseth]

I don't see why Eberron can't have black powder weapons (and indeed, I think we need some better alchemical items to choose from) but they really won't have the impact in Eberron that they had in the real world.

Actually, the idea that the introduction of firearms had an enormous impact on the battlefield was formerly a Vicotrian myth and has now become an Internet myth. For their first one or two centuries, personal firearms woefully underperformed their conventional counterparts, the longbow and crossbow. Even for the period when firearms became widespread, there is--IIRC--no real agreement amongst experts that this was because firearms were superior in performance. I've often read the argument that firearms remained inferior to bows even through the one or two first centuries after the handgonne's widespread adoption (which was in turn one to two centuries after its initial appearance); rather, firearms became so popular because they required only a tiny amount of training next to bows. An experiment that I saw in training bowmen makes me believe that this argument is perhaps somewhat exaggerated, but only somewhat.

In short, I think that if you introduced firearms into Eberron and gave them roughly the efficacy they had IRL upon their initial appearance, they would suck large next longbows and crossbows, making them mostly a novelty weapon (as they were on the IRL medieval battlefield, often with the novelty troops dressed in outlandish costume). Since the OP seems interested in having firearms around for novelty, such a set-up might work nicely.

[Tao Jones]

If the DMG was correct, we'd never have switched over to guns in the real world, either. Requiring an Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use a firearm is clearly an intentional attempt to prevent players from routinely wanting to use them. It follows, then, that if you do want firearms to be a player option, as opposed to a fake-option used to shut up players who want to do something you don't want them to do, it will be necessary to alter the DMG rules to make them at least vaguely useful. Removing the completely arbitrary and surreal designation as an Exotic Weapon would do just that.
I think it makes sense for matchlocks to require an exotic proficiency. There's plenty of stuff you have to do in order to use them that you never have to do with other weapons (keep your match lit, loading and filling the pan, etc). Early firearms were very cumbersone; I'm sure we only used pistols because they used pretty much the same material as cannons. Muskets and other long-range small arms had dedicated enough purposes that they stuck around despite being so unweildy until they became developed enough to actually be simpler to use than a bow or crossbow.

[KoboldLord]

I've often read the argument that firearms remained inferior to bows even through the one or two first centuries after the handgonne's widespread adoption (which was in turn one to two centuries after its initial appearance); rather, firearms became so popular because they required only a tiny amount of training next to bows. An experiment that I saw in training bowmen makes me believe that this argument is perhaps somewhat exaggerated, but only somewhat.

Regardless of the weapon fetishists' assertions that the longbow (or katana, or machete, or kukri, or whatever) is superior to firearms, the fact remains that "easier to use" *IS* an enormous point of superiority for even primitive firearms compared to longbows. If you give a platoon of peasants longbows, they will fail even to hit the ground roughly half the time. If you give a platoon of peasants flintlock rifles, they can hit a static target the size of a man at a hundred paces in maybe ten minutes of practice.

And why does the "easy to use" weapon require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, anyway? It's a punitive feat, that's why. PCs aren't supposed to want firearms.

I think it makes sense for matchlocks to require an exotic proficiency. There's plenty of stuff you have to do in order to use them that you never have to do with other weapons (keep your match lit, loading and filling the pan, etc). Early firearms were very cumbersone; I'm sure we only used pistols because they used pretty much the same material as cannons. Muskets and other long-range small arms had dedicated enough purposes that they stuck around despite being so unweildy until they became developed enough to actually be simpler to use than a bow or crossbow.

The D&D proficiency system does not consider upkeep costs. Nonproficient users get -4 to hit, even if they just borrowed the weapon from a proficient user who was maintaining the weapon properly, and if they hand it back to the proficient user that person gets the benefits of proficiency even though the weapon hadn't been cleaned or maintained since it was used at -4.

Besides, it takes maybe ten minutes to learn what you need to know to take care of a firearm, and the process is certainly no more complicated than the maintenance of a crossbow. Realism certainly doesn't justify spending a whole feat on the task, and neither does game balance.

[Ashikaider]

you can't (sensibly) fit a bayonet on a pistol.

that's why they made gunblades

http://www.oddblogbgod.com/gunblade.jpg

[Thanatos02]

I presume you mean bandoleers rather than bracers. Brace means pair, and a bracer is a synonym of vanbrace - the bit of armour that covers you from wrist to elbow. But that aside, the range on a Black Powder pistol is atrocious - British Officers in the Napoleonic were advised to use theirs solely for the purpose of mercy-killing their horse if it broke a leg. If you actually mean a brace, then the increased range of a musket or rifle's probably enough to reload and fire again in anyway, and you can't (sensibly) fit a bayonet on a pistol. Your average soldier's going to have one, maybe two feats - does he want to spend one on Quick Draw if he needs to spend another on Exotic Weapon Proficiency? For that matter, can he even take 2 feats that need BAB +1?

Yeah, bandoleers. >.>

But, we're not talking about average soldiers when we're talking about the Giff. And they like guns, so that's why they use them.

If you want to make powder weapons a part of the setting, make them Simple to compete with the Crossbows.

[BPIJonathan]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency implies that the weapon is not common, so you can make firearms a martial weapon that would allow Fighters to be trained in their use but not Wizards (without them spending a proficiency slot).

[loseth]

Regardless of the weapon fetishists' assertions that the longbow (or katana, or machete, or kukri, or whatever) is superior to firearms, the fact remains that "easier to use" *IS* an enormous point of superiority for even primitive firearms compared to longbows.

Ease of use came long after the introduction of firearms to the battlefield. The first handgonnes were notoriously dificult to use and required specialist training. It's only about two centuries after the introduction of firearms that their design becomes streamlined enough that their ease of use starts to make them more popular than longbows and crossbows


And why does the "easy to use" weapon require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, anyway?

Well, if it's a primitive firearm, then it isn't easy to use. If your gameworld has a tech-level such that firearms have already undergone a few centuries' worth of IRL development (which may take considerably less time in a fantasy world), then firearms should probably be classed as simple weapons.

[BPIJonathan]

Well, if it's a primitive firearm, then it isn't easy to use. If your gameworld has a tech-level such that firearms have already undergone a few centuries' worth of IRL development (which may take considerably less time in a fantasy world), then firearmas should probably br classed as simple weapons.


I still think that Simple Weapons is not the right category here. They are still complex enough to use that I think they would required to be a Martial Weapon. Of course YMMV.

[loseth]

I still think that Simple Weapons is not the right category here. They are still complex enough to use that I think they would required to be a Martial Weapon. Of course YMMV.

It's a tricky call. Someone unfamiliar with a 16th-C firearm probably wouldn't be able to figure out how to operate it without someone to show them, whereas they would almost certainly be able to figure out a longbow, just from having seen someone fire it. In that sense, firearms are difficult to use.

On the other hand, years of training from childhood is the generally accepted prerequisite for significant skill with the longbow, while a few months' training would be sufficient to get a skilled arquebusier, and a week's training would probably get one who with at least acceptable competence. In this sense, firearms are much easier weapons to use than longbows.

I think I'd be fine having them in simple or martial.

[Asmodai]

A bigger issue is that with the manufacturing technology in Eberron, if you have muskets, you're bound to have cannons.

Cannons revolutionized the way fortresses were designed - earthen star-shaped forts instead of towering stone castles. This can interfere with aesthetics.

Of course the viability of traditional castle design in D&D settings is already suspect, so you may just be able to handwave it.

[Thanatos02]

I still think that Simple Weapons is not the right category here. They are still complex enough to use that I think they would required to be a Martial Weapon. Of course YMMV.

Not picking on you but...

Let's face it, D&D is not a particularly accurate game. It's more important how guns are balanced mechanically then how complex or simple they are in real life.

Maybe guns were super-complicated, and maybe they were really basic to fire. Maybe they were easy to fire, but hard to care for. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

Want guns that armies use because they're good logistically? Make them Simple Weapons with a damage that's higher then crossbows on the average if they're slower to reload.

Want guns for the PC's? Consider making them Martial. Invent pistols. Consider reload times strongly, and provide some Feat support. Crossbow feats like Rapid Reload and bog-standard ranged feats will usually do your work for you. Expect low-Str., high-Dex characters to take advantage of the fact the D&D weapons don't possess minimum Str. requirements, and guns, like crossbows, neither utilize nor penalize you for Str. scores.

Want them to be unusable? Use the rules in the DM's Guide. Those guns bite.

[Jon Chung]

A bigger issue is that with the manufacturing technology in Eberron, if you have muskets, you're bound to have cannons.

Cannons revolutionized the way fortresses were designed - earthen star-shaped forts instead of towering stone castles. This can interfere with aesthetics.

Of course the viability of traditional castle design in D&D settings is already suspect, so you may just be able to handwave it.

Eh, in Eberron, I expect most of the protection a fortification has comes from magical wards rather than construction.

The most well-designed castle or fortress isn't going to survive a couple wizards going apeshit on it, a bunch of warforged titans deciding to knock on the door, a few airships with fireball projectors doing strafing runs, or squads of crack troops going raiding with teleport spells.

You'd need a reinforced, transdimensionally warded subterranean bunker. :)

[BPIJonathan]

A bigger issue is that with the manufacturing technology in Eberron, if you have muskets, you're bound to have cannons.

Its possible for muskets to be available without cannon. This is a fantasy game after all, and it would really be up to the individual GM. I know I have muskets in my fantasy world, but the cannon is not a developed technology with the aid of wizards and such its not needed. Cannons to me equal large scale warfare and siege warfare which is something that can be handled in most fantasy games by wizards throwing big spells. Muskets are used for a lot of skirmish action (of course in my world they are still Exotic because they are limited).

[loseth]

Eh, in Eberron, I expect most of the protection a fortification has comes from magical wards rather than construction.

Interesting thought--I'd never considered that before, but I think it makes a lot of sense.

[Nawara]

A bigger issue is that with the manufacturing technology in Eberron, if you have muskets, you're bound to have cannons.

Why not? They aren't really that much different from a 5th-level sorcerer, except in the lack of versatility... they'd be less common among nations with access to sorcerers or wizards (i.e. the Five Nations and Riedra), more common among nations with a decent amount of money but few mid-level casters.

Cannons revolutionized the way fortresses were designed - earthen star-shaped forts instead of towering stone castles. This can interfere with aesthetics.

I never really saw Eberron castles as being about anything other than aesthetics. Usually they're built by monarchs, aristocrats, or wizards, all of which have access to permanent protective spells that would protect against cannon not just on the sides, but from above and below as well (an important consideration when dealing with arcanists capable of summoning flying, tunneling, and elemental cavalry).

Walled cities may have legitimate fortification walls, maybe, but I always assumed those would be Trace Italienne-style setups instead of tall stone walls, just to get a flanking bonus on attacking bands of hobgoblins if nothing else.

Military Engineers: Always looking for that +2 to hit.

The most well-designed castle or fortress isn't going to survive a couple wizards going apeshit on it, a bunch of warforged titans deciding to knock on the door, a few airships with fireball projectors doing strafing runs, or squads of crack troops going raiding with teleport spells.

Yeah... I think this is how Eberron warfare is supposed to look. There's a very 1930s feel to the ~998 YK era.

-Jeff
(EDIT: Also worth noting that, even if there isn't any black powder, Eberron still has the technology to build alternative forms of musket and cannon. All black powder really is is something that rapidly expands when you do a specific thing to it... there are about a bazillion spells that can be harnessed in the same way. A cannonball projected by water instead of fire, for example. The real question is whether they'd be that terribly useful in a military setting. For conscripted NPC commoners, probably. For PCs with access to spells like Fireball or Divine Power, multiple attacks per round, sneak attack bonuses, and feats like Power Attack and Great Cleave, probably not.)

[Peter LaCara]

This thread is solid gold if only for the discussion on Eberron tactics. I'm getting a very vivid picture of what the Last War was like, and since I'm planning a Black Company inspired Eberron game with lots of flashbacks to the Last War, that's invaluable.

[loseth]

... a few airships with fireball projectors doing strafing runs...


It just occurred to me that in Dragonmarked, there's a really nice picture of what looks like magical AA guns being used against wyvern-mounted Lhazaari scouts who have come across a secret Thuranni fortress. Perhaps Eberron fortresses might have such guns as standard armament to deal with airships and other flying threats.

[Wolfwood2]

This thread is solid gold if only for the discussion on Eberron tactics. I'm getting a very vivid picture of what the Last War was like, and since I'm planning a Black Company inspired Eberron game with lots of flashbacks to the Last War, that's invaluable.

I think the level of day to day magic in the war might be getting a little exaggerated. Probably it's a lot closer to the Black Company books.

In the big Battle of Battles when all the stops get pulled out, yeah you're going to see a lot of magic flying around. Day to day, though, most of the work still gets done with sword and bow. Magic would be reserved for tactically significant moments, and most squads would have only a limited supply. Eternal Wands of Fireball sound great and all, but I'd bet that even one of the Five Nations had less than a hundred (well, less than a thousand definitely) of the things to scatter across their entire army.

I think cannons would be quite useful on Eberron. They're cheap to produce compared to magic. They're possibly better at causing structural damage; most D&D magic does half damage to objects and has to slowly wear away at a walls where a cannon ball would punch right through. Also importantly, you don't need a magic-user, even a mage-wright, to operate them.

[Peter LaCara]

Well, except that I want a very moody, Lost Generation feel to the game, so the more parallels I can draw to the horrors of World War I, the better. The idea of trench warfare in Eberron is an image I just can't get out of my head.

[loconius]

Where, if anywhere, are the rules for black powder weapons in D&D 3.5? I've only looked in the PHB, granted, but that's where they were in 3.0, so I figure the lack of inclusion there might indicate they're not in 3.5 at all.

While we're at it, if they are in 3.5, what's the story about black powder in Eberron? Were there harquebussiers and cannons used in the Last War? Who invented the stuff, and who employed it most?

EDIT: I guess the powder weapons were only in the 2nd edition PHB, not in 3.0.

In my eberron game i had Firearms and they were created by the hobgoblin nations long ago. the weapons didn't use powder however, instead a small fire elemental was bound to the device and was instructed to push out the ball that was loaded into the device [various methods of loading were experimented with]. for a quiet and invisible weapon [firearms fired much like they do now, with flame coming out for good effect] an air elemental was used instead.

the devices were novelties for the dragonmarked nobles, where a wand could do the same thing, the style of having one such weapon was more important. of course the goblin nations would kill to get them back ;-)

[Deekin]

I think the level of day to day magic in the war might be getting a little exaggerated. Probably it's a lot closer to the Black Company books.


It's Not. In Eberron, roughly 2/5 of the working class can cast magic. That's a lot of arcane firepower. Also, who in Eberron would develop guns? All the smart people would learn magic and artifice.


I think cannons would be quite useful on Eberron. They're cheap to produce compared to magic. They're possibly better at causing structural damage; most D&D magic does half damage to objects and has to slowly wear away at a walls where a cannon ball would punch right through. Also importantly, you don't need a magic-user, even a mage-wright, to operate them.

Three-Words. Adamantine Ballista bolts. Cut through that walls like hot knife through butter. A spell that causes catapult stones to act like adamantine would be relativity easy to cast on 50 of the stones.

[loseth]

It's Not. In Eberron, roughly 2/5 of the working class can cast magic.

:confused: Using the demographics information provided by Keith Baker on the WOTC site, I calculate than in an average village of 500 people, there will be 20-25 magic users (divine, artificers, arcane, etc.) and none of them will be of sufficient level to manage serious military magic. That would make magic users 4.5% of the population and I don't think any of them would be working-class--they'd all be able to command sufficient wages and respect to be middle-class. To get casters capable of military magic, you'd need to go to the cities, which are very few in number.

[Wolfwood2]

It's Not. In Eberron, roughly 2/5 of the working class can cast magic. That's a lot of arcane firepower. Also, who in Eberron would develop guns? All the smart people would learn magic and artifice.

As loseth pointed out, 2/5 is a gross over-exaggeration. 90%+ of the population are first level commoners.

Who would develop guns? Well, I expect an alchemist would be the one to discover gunpowder and things would proceed from there. Really it would be best off coming from the goblins, as they had a highly developed empire that nonetheless relied much less on magic than modern day human kingdoms.

Three-Words. Adamantine Ballista bolts. Cut through that walls like hot knife through butter. A spell that causes catapult stones to act like adamantine would be relativity easy to cast on 50 of the stones.

One of the things Keith Baker has pointed out is that just because a spell or magic item could theoretically be created under D&D rules doesn't mean that it has been in Eberron. Many things that it would be nice if magic could do them may simply not be possible.

And if you want to actually make the bolts out of adamantine, the cost shoots up again and cannons start to look like the cheaper alternative.

[Jon Chung]

It just occurred to me that in Dragonmarked, there's a really nice picture of what looks like magical AA guns being used against wyvern-mounted Lhazaari scouts who have come across a secret Thuranni fortress. Perhaps Eberron fortresses might have such guns as standard armament to deal with airships and other flying threats.

There are stats for fireball-throwing emplacements that fire once every ten rounds with no limit per day, and cost around 20k gold in the mass combat sourcebook. Heroes of Valour?

I saw no reason they wouldn't be constructed and deployed on fortifications or mobile firing platforms such as Lyrandar airships or Breland's floating fortresses.

[Jon Chung]

Well, except that I want a very moody, Lost Generation feel to the game, so the more parallels I can draw to the horrors of World War I, the better. The idea of trench warfare in Eberron is an image I just can't get out of my head.

Makes perfect sense - with combat magic being thrown around relatively casually, soldiers would not line up in neat rows for set-piece battles, they'd hide in the trenches to block Line of Effect for direct spell attack, and keep moving to avoid the artillery - a fireball does not need to impact on you, it can explode twenty feet above you and you still get fried, if the magewright with the eternal wand knows you're there.

I like this. :)

[Softmetalgazebo]

Makes perfect sense - with combat magic being thrown around relatively casually, soldiers would not line up in neat rows for set-piece battles, they'd hide in the trenches to block Line of Effect for direct spell attack, and keep moving to avoid the artillery - a fireball does not need to impact on you, it can explode twenty feet above you and you still get fried, if the magewright with the eternal wand knows you're there.

I like this. :)

That's the way I've always taken it. Over the trench in between fireball bombardments, hoping to hell they don't get themselves organised enough to get the bowmen and magic missile wandsman into place before you get to their trench so the nasty, brutal close up stuff can begin. Also? Cloudkill, lots of cloudkill.

Which actually brings up a couple of things.

Low level spells are freaking deadly when you're a first level commoner or warrior. You catch a Magic Missle? You're going to die. And there's really nothing you can do to avoid getting hit by it. Same with burning hands, color spray, chromatic orb or whatever. The idea of the great war actually drills this home. Same with Warforged. There's a reason they're hated.

Also, House Cannith? Complete and utter bastards.

[Epoch]

Not picking on you but...

Let's face it, D&D is not a particularly accurate game. It's more important how guns are balanced mechanically then how complex or simple they are in real life.

This is a good point, but (as you say later) the DMG blackpowder firearms aren't very good, mechanically. In my (3.0) DMG, pistols are 1d10 damage and muskets are 1d12, take a standard action to reload (and so fire only once every other round), are expensive to buy and moderately expensive to fire (about a gp per shot). They can't take advantage of strength bonuses, and don't get multiple shots per round. At most levels, they're probably inferior to bows. They're only arguably superior to bows in certain limited scenarios.

If you wanted to make them good PC weapons, you'd probably need to drastically increase their damage, or invent ways for the PC's to circumvent the loading time.

If you wanted to make them scary things for low-level NPC's to have, I'd increase the crit multiplier to x4, or maybe even make them 19-20/x4 (yes, I know that's an irregular crit chance. The point would be to make the special).

In a game which gave most armors damage reduction, firearms might bypass mundane armor damage reduction. A super-scary (and not particularly historically accurate) approach to them would be to make them automatically be ranged-touch-attacks.

[loseth]

I'm going to dissent. In one of the source books (can't remeber which), there's a picture of a large-scale battle, in which a long, single-file line of (I think Cyran) warforged is meeting another of Karrnathi undead. I saw that and thought, 'yeah, that's the way I'd form them up.'

Using Napoleonic-era tactics (which had to account for mass-effect artillery), you form your forces up in 2-3 single-file lines, with a good 20-50 feet between the lines and men within each line spaced about 5' apart. Then the fireballs come.

Keeping in mind that high-level spellcasters are immensely rare in Eberron, the average fireball coming at you lines would probably be cast by something like a 6th-level wizard, and there wouldn't be very many in total. Such a fireball would do an average of 21 points of damage (save for 10.5) and have a 20-ft blast radius. So, it would effect 3 or 4 soldiers in your line, and some of them would probably make their saves and survive. If you've got a force of, say, 10 000, then that isn't exactly going to force your lines back to the trenches.

I think that D&D-style artillery-magic would not be enough to mimic the effect of the machine-gun, resulting in WWI-style combat. I think it would be more like a mix of WWI and Napoleonic combat, with the need for cover being very important, but not important enough to stop lines of formed-up soldiers from being a useful tactic.

[Jon Chung]

An eternal wand of fireballs releases a 5d6 blast, radius 20 feet, range 600 feet. The average conscript Commoner 1-2 has all of three to six hit points. A career soldier Warrior 1-2 might have five to ten. They die even if they make their saves, which is highly unlikely.

Even a PC-leveled warforged fighter 1 with 16 CON only has thirteen hit points. If he fails his Reflex save, he is charred scrap. If he makes it, which is unlikely, he's still mostly dead and is essentially out until repaired, unless he has a death wish.

Only elite troops, such as Valenar veterans, experienced warforged legions and the like can reasonably expect to survive the fireballs, as they are level 4. Even then, two fireballs will cause severe casualties.

Battle formations are a definite no. Why expose yourself to AoE effects if you don't have to? Especially since a large set-piece formation of soldiers setting up for battle is just asking the other side to get out what higher-level wizards they do have and nuke it till it glows at night?

[Softmetalgazebo]

Though, one point isn't the rarity of casters but rather the more common low level magic items, given the existence of creation forges and so on. It's not the high level mages but rather the magewright with the wand or the low level mage with the scroll that going to be on the instrument of destruction in this case. While, yeah, there probably won't be handing the things out like water, there will be enough to make serious difference on how people fight.


And, given your average foot soldier is going to be a first or second level warrior, it won't matter over much if he makes that save or not, he's more than likely going to die from it.

[Jon Chung]

There are significant area-effect attacks available even at level 2, which are much cheaper to turn into eternal wands. Web, for example. The stuff's flammable.

[Softmetalgazebo]

There are significant area-effect attacks available even at level 2, which are much cheaper to turn into eternal wands. Web, for example. The stuff's flammable.

Really, it doesn't even need to an eternal wand. A normal wand has fifty charges. And it's cheaper. Which does leave me to wonder what role the eternal wand did fufill in the Last War.

Edit: Wait. Nevermind. I'm an idiot.

[loseth]

The average conscript Commoner 1-2 has all of three to six hit points. A career soldier Warrior 1-2 might have five to ten. They die even if they make their saves, which is highly unlikely.

OK, so let's say they all fail their saves. You lose all 3-4 guys that the blast radius hits. Say you take 20 fireball blasts (which I think is a high estimate) before the lines clash. That's 60-80 men. If your front line has 5,000 in it, then the longbows, crossbows, etc. have probably done far more damage than the magic.



Why expose yourself to AoE effects if you don't have to?

For the same reasons that troops did for centuries IRL: to get to the enemy line.

Especially since a large set-piece formation of soldiers setting up for battle is just asking the other side to get out what higher-level wizards they do have and nuke it till it glows at night?

I don't think either side is likely to have such wizards. Using KB's numbers, a typical nation will probably have 5-10 wizards/sorcerers of around 10th level and perhaps double or triple that number of wizards/sorcerers 2-3 levels lower in the whole nation. And I doubt that more than a third or so of these would be serving in the army (most of them will have better things to be doing). At a very, very major battle, maybe you'll have 3 or 4 serious mages on your side, casting military-grade spells.

But then you've got the other side's wizards counterspelling, plus any protective magical devices the other side has bought from House Cannith. I just can't see the military magic available under these circusmtances being much more powerful than Napoleonic artillery (which didn't obsolete lines of battle). I'm not saying you shouldn't have WWI-style warfare in Eberron, just that it's not necessarilly the most logical choice.

[loseth]

There are significant area-effect attacks available even at level 2, which are much cheaper to turn into eternal wands. Web, for example. The stuff's flammable.

If you can web your 3 or 4 guys in the enemy line in the heat of battle, and then light the web on fire before the lines close, without being pierced by 2d20 arrows in the process, you must be one hell of a Rambo mage. ;)

[Silent Wayfarer]

There are stats for fireball-throwing emplacements that fire once every ten rounds with no limit per day, and cost around 20k gold in the mass combat sourcebook. Heroes of Valour?

I saw no reason they wouldn't be constructed and deployed on fortifications or mobile firing platforms such as Lyrandar airships or Breland's floating fortresses.

Should be Heroes of Battle, under magical siege engines.

Items of note include the lightning ballista, which fires a 60ft. line of 5d6 lightning once per minute (once per two rounds in stormy weather, which would make it very popular with Lyrandar), costing 15k. The fiery ballista fires a scorching ray, which does 4d6 damage, but only needs a ranged touch attack. Again, 1/min. Both of them have no use limits. What makes me curious is that they fire 60ft. lines. Does that mean that they only have a 60ft. range (normal light ballistae have a 1000ft range)? That would suck.

Necromantic siege engines (+3000 gp to cost) reanimate corpses within 60ft of impact, turning them into zombies for 10 rounds. Perfect for shattering huge hordes of commoners.

Siege engines can be enchanted as magic weapons are, at the usual cost. The sole difference is that they cost more as the base weapon, anywhere from 1000 to 6000 gp.

The Starburst enhancement makes stones fired from the siege weapon explode in mid-air, doing piercing and slashing damage equal to its regular damage to everything within 20ft.

[KingDobbs]

I think that D&D-style artillery-magic would not be enough to mimic the effect of the machine-gun, resulting in WWI-style combat. I think it would be more like a mix of WWI and Napoleonic combat, with the need for cover being very important, but not important enough to stop lines of formed-up soldiers from being a useful tactic.

"Like the American Civil War" is the term you're looking for. :)

[Jon Chung]

OK, so let's say they all fail their saves. You lose all 3-4 guys that the blast radius hits. Say you take 20 fireball blasts (which I think is a high estimate) before the lines clash. That's 60-80 men. If your front line has 5,000 in it, then the longbows, crossbows, etc. have probably done far more damage than the magic.

You know, long lines of troops are just begging to be whacked with Lightning Bolts. Fireball isn't the only AoE spell out there, simply the one which punishes closely packed formations most. A 5 foot wide, 120 foot long lance of destruction would do nice things to your formation. As for speed, Fireball CL 5 has a range of 600 feet, which standard troops at double-move will cross in ten rounds at the cost of not being able to return fire. Two guys can hit your army with twenty fireballs in that length of time. I'm pretty sure anything worth being called an army in Eberron has more than two spellcasters who can operate wands.

For the same reasons that troops did for centuries IRL: to get to the enemy line.

In a formation? Marching in step? The only reason you'd do this when everybody (including you) has perfectly accurate area-effect attacks and battlefield control is if you really hate your men.

I don't think either side is likely to have such wizards. Using KB's numbers, a typical nation will probably have 5-10 wizards/sorcerers of around 10th level and perhaps double or triple that number of wizards/sorcerers 2-3 levels lower in the whole nation. And I doubt that more than a third or so of these would be serving in the army (most of them will have better things to be doing). At a very, very major battle, maybe you'll have 3 or 4 serious mages on your side, casting military-grade spells.

But then you've got the other side's wizards counterspelling, plus any protective magical devices the other side has bought from House Cannith. I just can't see the military magic available under these circusmtances being much more powerful than Napoleonic artillery (which didn't obsolete lines of battle). I'm not saying you shouldn't have WWI-style warfare in Eberron, just that it's not necessarilly the most logical choice.

And forming up for set-piece battles is more logical? What advantages does this give you over moving in squads through cover? The magical force balance is exactly identical, but you take less casualties because most magic is line-of-sight reliant.

If you can web your 3 or 4 guys in the enemy line in the heat of battle, and then light the web on fire before the lines close, without being pierced by 2d20 arrows in the process, you must be one hell of a Rambo mage.

A minimum caster level wand of Web has a 130 foot range, webbing a 20 foot radius circle for half an hour. Why would you web the enemy as they approach? You'll have ample lead time to set up all the web you could possibly need assuming your spotters and diviners are halfway competent.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Soften Earth and Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthAndStone.htm) makes the battlefield nic and muddy. Remember how the French lost at Agincourt?

A level 8 Lyrandar Dragonmark Heir can also get Control Weather, normally a level 7 druid spell 1/day via her free Greater Dragonmark. She then uses it at CL 14 to totally fuck up the battlefield for 4d12 hours. This is less precise but affects a vast area, and can totally disable normal ranged attacks within that area. Note that fireballs do not need attack rolls of any sort.

Or, for more precision, she could use Control Winds at CL14 to call up windstorms from calm air at up in a 560ft. cylinder, up to 560ft. away from her. If strong winds prevail, she can turn them into a tornado, and totally fuck over anyone on the other side. One invisible DMH on an invisible Dragonhawk can rip a formation or HQ to shreds in one cast, and they can deep strike that far because nobody except dragons has blindsense / blindsight / see invisibility / true seeing out to 1120 or even 560 feet.

Miss d'Lyrandar can do this every day. After a while, you won't have anywhere else left to run. Airships and dragonhawks move much faster than armies do.

[Jon Chung]

A few silent image spammers can utterly ruin the other side's visual targeting as well - cloak your troops by making them look like scrub terrain, draw fire by making the actual scrub terrain look like it's covered with men.

Punji pits covered with illusions would be one hell of a booby trap, especially if there was alchemist's fire in there.

[loseth]

You know, long lines of troops are just begging to be whacked with Lightning Bolts.

Lightning bolts travel in a straight line from the caster. They would be able to hit one man in the line formation I described above--a terrible waste of a spell.

A 5 foot wide, 120 foot long lance of destruction would do nice things to your formation.

That would kill one guy and maybe one or two behind him. Well worth your enemy losing the spell.

Two guys can hit your army with twenty fireballs in that length of time. I'm pretty sure anything worth being called an army in Eberron has more than two spellcasters who can operate wands.

But they wouldn't have unlimited fireballs from wands (wands are much more expensive than troops) and they would still have to get past teh magical protection and defensive casting of the enemy side.

In a formation? Marching in step? The only reason you'd do this when everybody (including you) has perfectly accurate area-effect attacks and battlefield control is if you really hate your men.

Napoleonic commanders didn't hate their men--they just knew that marching in formation was more likely to win them the battle.

And forming up for set-piece battles is more logical? What advantages does this give you over moving in squads through cover?

Because a formation will easilly beat a loose squad.

A minimum caster level wand of Web has a 130 foot range, webbing a 20 foot radius circle for half an hour. Why would you web the enemy as they approach? You'll have ample lead time to set up all the web you could possibly need assuming your spotters and diviners are halfway competent.

And the enemy will have ample time to overcome all your preparations with their own magic.

Using magic against the other side is good, but it won't defeat an army by itself.

[loseth]

Soften Earth and Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthAndStone.htm) makes the battlefield nic and muddy. Remember how the French lost at Agincourt?

A level 8 Lyrandar Dragonmark Heir can also get Control Weather, normally a level 7 druid spell 1/day via her free Greater Dragonmark. She then uses it at CL 14 to totally fuck up the battlefield for 4d12 hours. This is less precise but affects a vast area, and can totally disable normal ranged attacks within that area. Note that fireballs do not need attack rolls of any sort.

And the other side won't bring along any magic to counter this? I doubt it.

[loseth]

"Like the American Civil War" is the term you're looking for. :)

Thank you. :D I think that's a good analogy.

[Silent Wayfarer]

And the other side won't bring along any magic to counter this? I doubt it.

How can you counter either of them? March magewrights, artificers or spellcasters along with the commoners where snipers can pick them off? Constantly cover an area of sky twenty football fields in size with multiple flying sentries with see invisibility cast on them on the off chance that an invisible ninja on a high speed dragonhawk will swoop in and annihilate your base camp?

[loseth]

Necromantic siege engines (+3000 gp to cost) reanimate corpses within 60ft of impact, turning them into zombies for 10 rounds. Perfect for shattering huge hordes of commoners.

That blast would take out 11 or 12 guys if the enemy had no magic to counter it.


The Starburst enhancement makes stones fired from the siege weapon explode in mid-air, doing piercing and slashing damage equal to its regular damage to everything within 20ft.

So, again...3 or 4 guys.

Siege engines can be enchanted as magic weapons are, at the usual cost. The sole difference is that they cost more as the base weapon, anywhere from 1000 to 6000 gp.

Wow! That's a lot of cash to drop on taking out 3 or 4 soldiers per shot (if you hit every shot). Do you have any idea how many soldiers I could get for that money?

Again, all these things are good things to bring to the battlefield, but they won't make a big dent in a single-file line of 3 or 4000 troops.

[loseth]

How can you counter either of them?

Just cast control weather or winds as appropriate.

[Silent Wayfarer]

You still have at least a one round delay to get your spellcaster in position, One round in tornado force winds is all it takes to mess up a location but good.

In addition, Control Winds is a level 5 spell. Even with max caster level at level 5, the Lyrandar tornado nuker can still outpower whichever druid is int he location.


Not to mention the difficulties of casting during a tornado to begin with.

[Wolfwood2]

Soften Earth and Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthAndStone.htm) makes the battlefield nic and muddy. Remember how the French lost at Agincourt?

A level 8 Lyrandar Dragonmark Heir can also get Control Weather, normally a level 7 druid spell 1/day via her free Greater Dragonmark. She then uses it at CL 14 to totally fuck up the battlefield for 4d12 hours. This is less precise but affects a vast area, and can totally disable normal ranged attacks within that area. Note that fireballs do not need attack rolls of any sort.

Or, for more precision, she could use Control Winds at CL14 to call up windstorms from calm air at up in a 560ft. cylinder, up to 560ft. away from her. If strong winds prevail, she can turn them into a tornado, and totally fuck over anyone on the other side. One invisible DMH on an invisible Dragonhawk can rip a formation or HQ to shreds in one cast, and they can deep strike that far because nobody except dragons has blindsense / blindsight / see invisibility / true seeing out to 1120 or even 560 feet.

Miss d'Lyrandar can do this every day. After a while, you won't have anywhere else left to run. Airships and dragonhawks move much faster than armies do.

Which is probably part of the reason that House Lyrander maintained neutrality in the Last War. The Mark of Storm is one of the more powerful marks, without a doubt. They weren't even one of the houses that specialized in hiring out as mercenaries.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Which is probably part of the reason that House Lyrander maintained neutrality in the Last War. The Mark of Storm is one of the more powerful marks, without a doubt. They weren't even one of the houses that specialized in hiring out as mercenaries.

Mechanically, it provides a great reason to take a half-elf, so you can go Bard/Rogue 4 / DMH 5 / Windwright Captain 5 and get your own airship and the ability to call down 2/day nukes of havoc without any magic items. A half-elf like this would makes a great social character, both for in-house prestige and for being an airship captain (with a built-in remote control too!)

Storywise, it's even better. You can play up the whole angle of "tempestuously attractive captain lady", it gives you free license to manipulate the weather in minor details to reflect her moods, and do remember that control winds can calm winds as well as raise them - and with CL 18 or higher, you can turn a tornado into a bright, sunny day. Nothing makes you more heroic than saving a coastal town from annihilation. Take Leadership and you even have a die-hard crew of White Raven Crusader marines covering your back. Alternatively, you can have the Lyrandar girl as a cohort, which instantly provides you with transportation, plot-device-like nuking abilities, and a company of hardcore bodyguards.

A story idea I may have tossed out in the past is the concept of a youngish dragonmarked heir who's been kidnapped by House Tarkanan insurgents to harness her greater dragonmark. The PCs get to recover her, but even if they do, there's all sorts of people after her - the Tarkanan kidnappers, various mercenaries who also want the bounty, or perhaps even Lyrandar-hired assassins, who want to be sure that she won't be mind-controlled into wrecking towns and giving them a bad name.

[loseth]

You still have at least a one round delay to get your spellcaster in position, One round in tornado force winds is all it takes to mess up a location but good.

No problem, just march around it. But anyway, I doubt that a tornado would mess up a typical battlefield (usually plains or rolling hills) enough to even marginally slow down an army.


In addition, Control Winds is a level 5 spell. Even with max caster level at level 5, the Lyrandar tornado nuker can still outpower whichever druid is int he location.

Remember, if one side has a Lyrander weather controller, the other side will too. Control weather is easilly countered by the same spell.


Not to mention the difficulties of casting during a tornado to begin with.

You need a CL of 15 to manage a tornado. An Eberron army isn't going to have that kind of magical firepower.

[Silent Wayfarer]

No problem, just march around it. But anyway, I doubt that a tornado would mess up a typical battlefield (usually plains or rolling hills) enough to even marginally slow down an army.

Target it on those formations you endorse so much. Or on immobile HQs.

Remember, if one side has a Lyrander weather controller, the other side will too. Control weather is easilly countered by the same spell.

If I had your ability to make leaps of logic, I'd put on a costume and fight crime.

Remember, if Lyrandar DMHs work for one side, they're sufficiently committed enough to that side that they wouldn't hire their rare and precious scions to the other team.

Control weather is a level 7 druid spell. Level 13. Druids that powerful aren't exactly common.

You need a CL of 15 to manage a tornado. An Eberron army isn't going to have that kind of magical firepower.

With strong winds, you shift it up 4 grades to tornado. With no wind, you get a windstorm, which stops mundane ranged attacks anyway and still messes up spellcasting.

[Noliar]

Going back to Black Powder weapons - if you want them more common, lower the crazy price of gunpowder. In current rules it costs multiple gp per handgun shot. However a little googling reveals that, for example, in 1795 in New York one keg of gunpowder (15.5 gallons) cost 8 pounds. Now one pound sterling was one tower pound of silver and a tower pound is about 0.77 american pounds. Since we know there are 50 D&D coins to the pound this works out to a price of 308.6 silver pieces.
Even granting that production technology was pretty advanced by 1795 and allowing for the inflated prices in D&D, I think the price of a charge of gunpowder should be coppers.
Arrows and crossbow bolts are far bulkier and (each being crafted fom multiple components to a fairly high precision) more expensive.

[Silent Wayfarer]

If you wanted to mass-produce gunpowder / arrows / bolts / poisons, minor creation should do the trick. Gunpowder's a bit iffy, though it's technically vegetable matter.

Certain settings make it more difficult by requiring smokepowder, which is magical and much harder to make as a result.

[loseth]

Remember, if Lyrandar DMHs work for one side, they're sufficiently committed enough to that side that they wouldn't hire their rare and precious scions to the other team.


Ah, see I thought we were going by the setting as written, which states that those houses that committed did so for all sides who were willing to pay.

Anyway, I think I’ll bow out of the debate on magic, lest it turn into…

A: But what about this spell…

B: Well, that spell won’t devastate armies because…

A: But what about this spell…

Ad infinitum.

Instead, I’ll just put in a parting shot showing how things work in terms of numbers:

Let’s say there are two Eberron barons, Baron Magicus and Baron Soldierous, who just can’t stand each other. So, they each scour their treasuries and come up with 30,000gp for a three-month campaign. They go shopping and here’s what they get:

Baron Soldierous

27,000gp 1500 Deneith White Blade Mercenaries for 3 months
3,000gp 55 Deneith Gray Blade Mercenary Officers for 3 months

Baron Magicus

23,000gp 2 wands of Fireball (5d6, 600’, 20’ radius)
6,000gp 333 Deneith White Blade Mercenaries for 3 months
900gp 16 Deneith Gray Blade Mercenary Officers for 3 months
100gp? Two Magewrights for 3 months

So, Soldierous lines his boys up in a single file and marches them toward Magicus’ force. At 600’, Magicus’ magewrights open up on Soldierous’ line and Soldierous orders the charge. Magicus has his force move back at 30’ per round, allowing the Magewrights to still take a standard action each round (to fire their wands). This means that, at a run, Soldierous’ line will be closing at 90’ per round, so he’ll need 7 rounds to close with Magicus’ force. Each 20’ fireball blast will take out 4 men spaced 5’ apart, and the two magewrights can manage 14 total blasts (56 casualties) assuming they have initiative or 12 assuming they don’t (48 casualties). Let’s say they get initative and take out 56 of Soldierous’ men. Upon contact, it is thus 1 499 soldiers against 349 soldiers and two low-level casters. Magicus, prepare to get pwned.

In short, assuming that resources are roughly equal, you get more bang for your buck with mercs than you do with magic. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t buy magic, just that you should expect it to play a supporting, not a dominating role on the battlefield.

[Victim]

The problem is with that comparison is that most of the cost difference is due to the cheap nature of rental guys. At the end of 3 months, all of Solderius's guys go home, while Magius has 2 nearly full wands of fireball (which he probably can't use). If he were paying temporary access to fireballing ability instead of permanent items, he'd get a much better rate.

Also, you're ignoring logistical costs. The more troops you hire, the more food and such that they'll need. The more food they need, the more supply units they need to move the food around. And supply wagons mean that the force is slower (so it eats more food). There are going to be added costs to hiring lots of guys for 3 months, and the side with more guys will pay more.

[SpikeThe Bummer]

Well, going back to the OP... I think guns belong in Eberron because they are a perfect fit to the feel of the setting. Swashbuckling rouges and gritty noir fantasy and you don't have flintlock pistols? WTF, man!

don't get me started on that stupid exotic weapon feat thing...

[Softmetalgazebo]

On that note, did we ever find out how much Warforged used to cost?

[Asmodai]

On that note, did we ever find out how much Warforged used to cost?

If you have to ask...

I don't think that they ever gave a concrete gp price.

I imagine that with the strain on the 5 Nations' financing few of them were purchased outright. I expect that many of them were bought rent-to-own and more were bought with bonds (that the remaining Nations are still paying off). It would also explain why the destruction of Cyre was a triple (or quadruple) whammy for House Cannith which lost its leaders, its main production facilities, its best personnel, its treasury, and its biggest customer for Warforged in the space of a single day.

[Tao Jones]

On that note, did we ever find out how much Warforged used to cost?
Or how much damage a rust monster does to one?

[Softmetalgazebo]

2d6, DC 17 for half

[Tao Jones]

2d6, DC 17 for half
Really? Where was that given? I couldn't find it anywhere.

[Softmetalgazebo]

Really? Where was that given? I couldn't find it anywhere.

It's under the Warforged entry, I think.

Which, on checking it is. Page 23. First paragraph, right hand column.

[Tao Jones]

It's under the Warforged entry, I think.

Which, on checking it is. Page 23. First paragraph, right hand column.
I gotta learn to read.

[Noliar]

If you wanted to mass-produce gunpowder / arrows / bolts / poisons, minor creation should do the trick. Gunpowder's a bit iffy, though it's technically vegetable matter.

Saltpetre, sulphur, arrowheads and fletching feathers are none of them vegetable. In any case the spell only lasts an hour per level and requires a seventh level caster - not common in Eberron.
A small gang of adventurers can rely on magic in ways an army cannot.

Certain settings make it more difficult by requiring smokepowder, which is magical and much harder to make as a result.

I thought we were decrying the passive-agressive policy of allowing the technology but screwing anyone who wants to use it.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Saltpetre, sulphur, arrowheads and fletching feathers are none of them vegetable. In any case the spell only lasts an hour per level and requires a seventh level caster - not common in Eberron.
A small gang of adventurers can rely on magic in ways an army cannot.

Presumably, you could use hard paper fletching. I won't pretend to know what that'll do to the flight characteristics of said arrows, though. And I confused gunpowder with guncotton - which is technically nitrocellulose.

I thought we were decrying the passive-agressive policy of allowing the technology but screwing anyone who wants to use it.

Heh, we were? In that case, the IK system of keeping anyone without extensive training in firearms from firing more than once every 2-3 rounds seems right. 1 standard to load powder and ball, one standard action to ram it home, 1 standard to light the match, aim and fire.

Full attacks are, of course, out of the question, unless you use pepperbox-style weapons.

[Noliar]

And PCs keep thier edge because they can afford to shell out thousands of gp for a magical autoloader.

[Silent Wayfarer]

And PCs keep thier edge because they can afford to shell out thousands of gp for a magical autoloader.

Nah, PCs keep their edge because they can walk into massed rifle fire and kill every man on the other side with a rusty spoon. :D

[Thanatos02]

PCs should invent revolvers.

[Silent Wayfarer]

PCs should invent revolvers.

They've already been invented.

PCs should invent the gatling gun.

=D

[Jon Chung]

Or we can skip all that and go right to True Creation: Uranium-235, 10kg. :)

[Silent Wayfarer]

Shrink item on a giant boulder makes for a portable avalanche.