[D&D 3.5] Help me Build: Melee Spellcaster

[Zato-2TWO]

I'm making an oriental-themed mystic for a game taking place in real-world 200 BC with light magic elements, and I'm making some considerations to how I want to build this character.

I'm building her as a Wu Jen specializing in Metal, and I used two feats to purchase Versatile twice to get all the talking skills, because she's also going to be the talker in the party. So far the rest of the party is comprised of tanks, so it'd be to the party's benefit to have a pure spellcaster, but to capture the character concept better, I sort of want this Wu Jen to be practiced in martial arts as well (at least, to the point where she can fight melee without using too much magic).

We're starting at ECL 3, and with no real limitations to our equipment except for only having "what our character would logically have", and magic items are severely limited.

How would one plan the progression of this character? Should I take levels in monk, or could I simply take some feats to better help her melee ability?

[jhudsui]

Take one level in Swordsage and talk your DM into letting you use the variant that loses light armor proficiency in exchange for Improved Unarmed Strike and Monk unarmed damage. Pros/Cons vs. taking a level of Monk instead:

CONS:
* You lose the Wisdom bonus to AC.
* You lose +2 to Fortitude saves (which I guess an Arcane spellcaster could really use.)
* You lose Stunning Fist.

PROS:
* You get a much wider range of weapon proficiency. It seems like Taoist sorcerors always use long swords to me. Well, Swordsages can use those, Monks can't.
* Slightly more skill points.
* You get a bunch of 1st level martial maneuvers, and can use four of them per encounter (more if you take time to refresh). Things like increasing your speed by 10 for a round, making a jump as a free action, making a dazzling flash when you strike that could distract opponents in a radius, adding a little fire damage to attacks, attacking with two weapons as a standard action, etc.

[Zato-2TWO]

I've already have a Swordsage in another game I'm playing, actually. It sounds like it'd be perfect, but I wouldn't want to make a copy of my other character. If that were the case, I'd have just made her a pure Swordsage, to be honest.

[Ozymandias]

The best melee spellcaster is a cleric or a wildshaped druid.

If you absolutely have to dick around, it's worth taking at least one level of the spellsword prestige class. (It's a 1/2 spell progression PrC, but it has the unusual quality that the odd-numbered levels are the ones that grant you caster levels.)

[Agent Oracle]

What about the duskblade? Go nova with the best of them!

[Zato-2TWO]

The Duskblade's spell list is too limited for what I need to happen. Plus, thematically, the Wu Jen does the job of capturing my character concept, but I just need to find a way to give her some fighting ability. I'm genuinely thinking of giving her a level of monk at ECL 5 and have her go Enlightened Fist.

The only problem is that my character isn't Lawful, but I think that can be worked out with the GM.

[Mr. Teapot]

Have you considered the Battle Sorceror (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleSorcerer) instead of Wu Jen? Or an Oriental Adventures Shaman (who get bonus unarmed strike feats)? Or the Duskblade mentioned?

Otherwise, you'd need to get into some sort of PrC ASAP to make a decent melee Wu Jen. Enlightened Fist if you want a Monk/Wu Jen, or your standard combination of Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, Abjurant Champion, etc if Monk is less important than melee capability. All these options aren't great at third, though, and wouldn't be really good until the combo PrC starts being decent.

You should try to get the Carmendine Monk feat, or Kung Fu Genius, if you combine Monk and Wu Jen. Both add Int instead of Wis to AC. Or if you go Sorceror, you want the Monk/Sorceror feat from Complete Adventurer to add Cha to AC.

[ShanG]

Take one level in Swordsage and talk your DM into letting you use the variant that loses light armor proficiency in exchange for Improved Unarmed Strike and Monk unarmed damage. Pros/Cons vs. taking a level of Monk instead:

You can Also go with the variant of Swordsage that casts Spells instead of using Maneuvers. That way you can do the 'Melee Spellcaster' quite easily, and you'll be able to keep up with fighters all day long.

[Particle_Man]

What about just a little Swordsage in your Wu-Jen, so you can go Jade Phoenix prestige class in Bo9S?

[Wolfwood2]

I'm making an oriental-themed mystic for a game taking place in real-world 200 BC with light magic elements, and I'm making some considerations to how I want to build this character.

I'm building her as a Wu Jen specializing in Metal, and I used two feats to purchase Versatile twice to get all the talking skills, because she's also going to be the talker in the party. So far the rest of the party is comprised of tanks, so it'd be to the party's benefit to have a pure spellcaster, but to capture the character concept better, I sort of want this Wu Jen to be practiced in martial arts as well (at least, to the point where she can fight melee without using too much magic).

We're starting at ECL 3, and with no real limitations to our equipment except for only having "what our character would logically have", and magic items are severely limited.

How would one plan the progression of this character? Should I take levels in monk, or could I simply take some feats to better help her melee ability?

The Golden Rule is, Thou Shalt Not Give Up Caster Levels. There is nothing better in D&D than another level of spellcasting, and nothing gimps a spellcaster faster than giving up a caster level.

You're already sacrificing two feats to do the job of another class. Now you want to be the spellcaster and the social character and a non-sucky melee fighter? That's... called a bard. And bards aren't great as the sole spellcaster. Generally D&D isn't built to allow one character to do everything, and if you try the game mechanics will make you suffer for it.

Okay, rant over. Your monk idea is technically against alignment restrictions, as Wu Jen can't be lawful. You're already proficient with all simple weapons, so my suggestion is to just get a nice longspear and pretend you're going to use it every once in a while. (Though really, the party needs you to spend your actions in combat casting spells, not doing a job the other party members are already handling.)

[Zato-2TWO]

I'm not exactly a 'go around and blow everything up' spellcaster, especially given the setting. In fact, it'd be much better if I had some non-magical way of defending myself, because I can't be as open with my magic as the standard wizard, who solves every problem with a fireball; I'd immediately be branded a witch and burned at the stake if I just magic'ed my way out of every problem. Thus, given our setting, I really shouldn't be spending every action casting spells. In fact, it's probably a bad idea if I do.

The social aspect is simply an issue of putting skill points in the right place. I actually figured out that with the Monk's pallette of class skills that I don't need to spend a feat for Versatile to get Diplomacy and Sense Motive, so this actually frees up a feat for me.

For me, I'm trying to build this character's sheet to reflect her story. She's a temple-learned Wu Jen, and in such a temple, mysticism and martial arts are closely related. Her social aspect comes partly from her current line of 'work' (she's sort of a self-styled concubine), as well as the fact that she needs to blend into society without suspicions of wielding otherworldly powers.

Our GM tends to be rather lenient with restriction rules, especially alignment restrictions. I'll discuss it with him and see if he approves.

[Wookie]

Swordsage w/ unarmed and magic options w/ your gm's permission. Then you can be a diplomatic, shapeshifting martial arts sage who can throw off fireballs and buffs and such as martial arts techniques. People will think you're a demon perhaps, but when you can look like anyone using your transformation techniques it'll be easier to get away with.

You'll have a very limited amount and selection of "spells", but you can refresh them and choose others from your chosen list with a full round action. Your "spells" won't be affected by spell resistance and you won't need any components to use them. Base your martial spells off of wisdom and that should combine to increase your listen, spot, sense motive, will save and ac with a high attribute there. You can also pick up feats to use your wisdom bonus to hit with unarmed or ranged.

Edit: Mind you it would take a bit of house ruling to get both the unarmed and magic options, but is it really any more powerful than just getting the magic option? Not really, its just cooler.

[vitus979]

The best melee spellcaster is a cleric or a wildshaped druid.

Yeah, if your deal was using spells to buff your abilities the melee cleric is really the way to go. If you can't use flashy effects this is doubly true because "turn into a bear and savage people" is kinda flashy. :)


EDIT:Honestly doing a quick browse of the Wu-Jen spell list I'm not seeing how it's helping you with your concept. There are even fewer melee buffs in the Wu-Jen list than the normal Wiz/Sorc list, and all the metal ones are very obvious (ie "Scarf stretches out to close range, decapitating target").

EDIT 2:The Cleric OTOH gives you Divine Favor, Divine Power, Bull's Strength, and Bear's Endurance as well as some decent defensive personal buffs AND group-wide buffs like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful which is great in a party full of fighters like you mention. These are just the first few that come to mind and none of which have flashy effects.

[Juriel]

Yeah, boring as it is, if you want a melee spellcaster, that's Cleric.

Battle Sorcerer's cooler, though.

[Jon Chung]

I'm not exactly a 'go around and blow everything up' spellcaster, especially given the setting. In fact, it'd be much better if I had some non-magical way of defending myself, because I can't be as open with my magic as the standard wizard, who solves every problem with a fireball; I'd immediately be branded a witch and burned at the stake if I just magic'ed my way out of every problem. Thus, given our setting, I really shouldn't be spending every action casting spells. In fact, it's probably a bad idea if I do.

Why not play a Bard then? Your social ability is second to none, you can handle yourself in combat with the right build, and you can get into Jade Phoenix Mage. For example, something like this:

Bard 6, Crusader 2, Jade Phoenix Mage 2, Sublime Chord 2, Jade Phoenix Mage +8.

You end up with 9th level spontaneous-cast Sor/Wiz and Bard spells, 16 BAB and an initiator level of 11. Grab a Greatsword, fire up Arcane Strike with Aura of Chaos, cast Haste and go to town.

[Zato-2TWO]

I appreciate all the feedback, but I have to address a few topics:

-I'm sure a Bard would do the trick just fine, but the Bard doesn't offer the background I'm looking for, nor the class features. My character's background doesn't really call for Bardic Knowledge or Bardic Music. The same can be said of the cleric; the framework of a cleric just doesn't suit my character. Thematically, the metal Wu Jen represents my character the best.

-To everyone giving me suggestions out of the Tome of Battle, I said so on the first page that I already have a pure Swordsage in my other game, so I already have my fill of the Sublime Way. Swordsage/Wu Jen would be perfect for the job, but I don't want to repeat what I already have. And for that matter, I'm not interested in Jade Phoenix Mage; again, it doesn't fit my character concept one bit.

I'm not looking to make a "melee fighter who buffs up and beats people up", I'm still looking to play a support/auxilliary-function spellcaster, because if I wanted to deal damage, I'd have made a Wizard or a Barbarian or something.

Few things are keeping me from just straight-out making a full Wu Jen, however. Given the setting, I can't rely on my magic all the time. I was drawn to the idea of Monk because mysticism and martial practice usually come hand in hand, and it just makes a whole lot of sense with my character's backstory. There's an alignment restriction, sure, but my GM can work around that.

The idea of the build is not to use magic to empower my melee ability, the idea is that if I can't use magic for whatever reason, I'm not entirely boned. Sure, I could be a Duskblade and that'd be the end of that, but A. the Duskblade's spell list doesn't give me what I need, and B. the class doesn't fit the character.


Now, I just got word from my GM that he's allowing me to make custom changes to the base classes from the book to better fit my concept, so I want to try and make a Martial Wu Jen variant. This is what I propose:

HD d6, Average BAB, poor Fortitude and Reflex, good Will
No armor proficiencies, proficient in simple weapons and monk weapons
Monk's Skill Points: (4 + INT mod) x 4 at 1st level, 4 + INT mod per level
Monk's Class skills, plus Spellcraft
Monk's Unarmed Strike damage dice.
Wu Jen's spellbook and spells per day
Wu Jen's Spell Secrets (and Elemental Mastery at 6th level)
"Arcane Stunning" - spend a spell slot to make a Stunning Fist attack, Fort save DC = 10 + 1/2 class level + spell level spent; Arcane Stunning can substitute as a prerequisite for Stunning Fist.

I'm not sure how this balances out, but I'm willing to make a few changes. Any feedback?

[vitus979]

HD d6, Average BAB, poor Fortitude and Reflex, good Will
No armor proficiencies, proficient in simple weapons and monk weapons
Monk's Skill Points: (4 + INT mod) x 4 at 1st level, 4 + INT mod per level
Monk's Class skills, plus Spellcraft
Monk's Unarmed Strike damage dice.
Wu Jen's spellbook and spells per day
Wu Jen's Spell Secrets (and Elemental Mastery at 6th level)
"Arcane Stunning" - spend a spell slot to make a Stunning Fist attack, Fort save DC = 10 + 1/2 class level + spell level spent; Arcane Stunning can substitute as a prerequisite for Stunning Fist.

I'm not sure how this balances out, but I'm willing to make a few changes. Any feedback?

So you get

- better HD
- better BAB
- better better saves
- better weapon proficiencies
- monk unarmed damage progression
- a custom "Arcane Stunning" ability better than the monk Stunning Fist
- much better skill list

and as far as I can tell you're losing
- Watchful Spirit
- 1st level Bonus Feat
- Knowledge skills as class skills (which can be negated with a feat)


I don't know that I'd call that a balanced varient. It actually comes much closer to a gestault.

[Shisumo]

Typically martial variants of classes, particualrly ones with improved HD and BAB, have to sacrifice spells known or spells per day for the privilege. For something like what you're suggesting, I might suggest 1 spell/day off of each spell level, to a minimum of 0 (only getting bonus spells).

Hmm.. that might be a bit much. For that, I'd probably add something like Kung Fu Genius, giving you the monk AC bonus, but based off of Intelligence instead of Wisdom, too.

[Failed Saving Throw]

Play a cleric, seriously.