point-based D&D

[fruitbane]

Anybody know of any rules sets or modifications that change D&D to a point-based/point-buy system instead of class/level-based?

I'm not to keen on the current level/class D&D but it's what most players know. If I could modify it I could strike a compromise.

[cjh]

There's the PDF called Buy The Numbers (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2909&). It seems well liked, it won an Ennie.

[MadCow]

I'm just speaking out of memory here..... but didn't BESM d20 have some sort of point-based system?

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Errr... it's going to be pretty hard to get away from class/level. Especially if you still want it to be "D&D", just without classes/levels. Rather than opening that can of worms though, I'll just toss out a couple of things:

BESMd20 - Guardians of Order. You can still pick it up pretty easily, even though GoO is no longer around. You're not going to find many positive things said about it though. Many fans of BESM didn't like it because it was d20, and many d20 fans don't like it because they disagree with decisions the designers made.

You can get the SRD version of it in the form of the Anime SRD, and see what you think.

Buy the Numbers - A solid product, and virtually unknown it seems. It operates on the idea of XP being spent to buy abilities, HD, and so forth. With a just a bit of a tweak, you could call it "point buy" instead of "xp buy". It's also got an advantage, in that if you want to convert from other sources, you can make your creations be roughly on the same level of balance (or unbalance depending on your point of view).

I've got 'em both and like 'em for different reasons. The "easiest" would probably be Anime SRD/BESM d20. I'm sure there's "balance" issues, but those are going to tend to depend more on the individual and their preferences/biases, than anything else. Buy the Numbers is going to be your best bet if you're looking for a longer term "toolkit" to be able to bend and twist things around, while still maintaining an overall parity with other classes/abilities.

[cjh]

You can get the SRD version of it in the form of the Anime SRD, and see what you think.

The SRD for BESM d20 isn't going to have what he's looking for. It really isn't a completely point buy system because it still uses levels and classes. There is a point buy option (adapted from some rules posted to the old GoO forums) that is a part of the Revised BESM d20 book, but those rules were never released in the SRD.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

If I could modify it I could strike a compromise.

The SRD for BESM d20 isn't going to have what he's looking for. It really isn't a completely point buy system because it still uses levels and classes. There is a point buy option (adapted from some rules posted to the old GoO forums) that is a part of the Revised BESM d20 book, but those rules were never released in the SRD.

Really? I guess I'm more flexible in my use and definition of point buy then. The Anime SRD I downloaded from the Guardians of Order websiter (http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/) talks about points being used for abilities in chapter 3 and chapter 6 talks about points for different ranks of various attribbutes. Chapter 5 even looks at the point breakdown of d20 Modern Classes, as well as the traditional D&D classes.

Looks an awful lot like what I see in my Stingy Gamers Guide that's the revised for 3.5 version. I _think_ the SRD was updated to reflect that, but I could be wrong. We could also be talking about completely different things too, I'm not really sure now. :D

I guess I didn't make it clear enough that BESMd20 is still hooked into levels and classes, although like I said, it's going to be pretty hard to have "D&D" and _not_ have some sort of class/level thing going on. However, based on this:
If I could modify it I could strike a compromise.
I figured I'd offer up an already existing compromise that might work for him. I guess the other option is to simply say "Use Gurps/Hero/whatever", but I don't think that's really helpful, and isn't really going to give the whole D&D feel either (in my opinion at least)

One thing I've seen offered up as far as the whole classes thing and BESMd20, is to use the Adventurer class as the overall "class" and simply buy the abilities to make whatever class you want. May or may not work for you.

There's also the Optional Rules posted on the GoO site that has (pg 14) another option for doing Classless as well. You can find the Optional Rules here: http://www.guardiansorder.com/downloads/ and then scroll down to the BESMd20 section. The errata might also be helpful: http://www.guardiansorder.com/downloads/errata.html

Soooo... yeah, completely classless/no levels/point buy D&D, I think you're kinda out of luck, except for Buy the Numbers, which might not qualify either if you're looking at some sort of strict definition of "point buy".

[fruitbane]

Well, I'll look over the BESM Anime SRD document and see what it looks like. Buy the Numbers actually sounds like what I was looking for. Keep in mind that EXP are just points, so EXP buying of abilities is really the same thing as buying with other points. Basically I'm trying to see if there's a way to shed some of the restricting class/level crap that comes with D&D. That's all. And if Buy the Numbers helps retain some measure of balance, if it's well-thought, then maybe that'll be what's needed.

Still, I'm surprised someone doesn't have a Buy the Numbers-like document out there on the web for free. Meaning something similar or in the same vein rather than "pirating" Buy the Numbers.

[cjh]

Well, I'll look over the BESM Anime SRD document and see what it looks like.

Well, as much as I like BESM d20 (it's my favorite d20 variant after True20) it really doesn't bring the D&D experience. Sure, it tries really hard to simulate it but it just isn't the same thing mechanically. Once you figure in the Attributes that BESM d20 uses (which is the system's greatest strength) it really doesn't bring the same overall gaming experience.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Well, I'll look over the BESM Anime SRD document and see what it looks like. Buy the Numbers actually sounds like what I was looking for. Keep in mind that EXP are just points, so EXP buying of abilities is really the same thing as buying with other points. Basically I'm trying to see if there's a way to shed some of the restricting class/level crap that comes with D&D. That's all. And if Buy the Numbers helps retain some measure of balance, if it's well-thought, then maybe that'll be what's needed.

Still, I'm surprised someone doesn't have a Buy the Numbers-like document out there on the web for free. Meaning something similar or in the same vein rather than "pirating" Buy the Numbers.

Hmmm. Well, besides the Anime SRD the only other thing I'm aware of that's free is the Class Construction Kit, which you can find here: http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/ There's a version of it that was updated to 3.5 and can be found here: http://www.community3e.com/class.html Of course this still is the whole class/level thing.

Hard as it is to believe, there really hasn't been that strong a push for this sort of thing from what I've seen. Most people simply grab a class from one of the horde of d20 books out there, and tweak from there. Otherwise, they switch over to some other system.

I've looked around myself quite a bit, before I simply decided "It's stupid to waste this much time when I can just spend $8 and be done with it."

If you find anything better, let me know. :)

[cjh]

So, fruitbane, have you looked at the Action! System (http://www.goldrushgames.com/files/ActionCoreFree.pdf)? It isn't exactly D&D, but the two systems are very similar. The attributes, while having different names, cover the same things as the attributes in d20. It is completely point-based in its character creation. Like I said, not the same thing, but very, very close and even if it isn't what you are looking for it might push you into the right direction. It's a nice little game system.

There is even a d20 conversion.

[fruitbane]

Maybe it'll help to give you a better idea what I'm getting at, here. I think Chris gets it. He seems to be able to read my frikkin' mind. It's scary...

Basically, everyone plays D&D. Almost nobody I can seem to coordinate schedules with plays any of the neat other games I have that I'd like to explore. Most gamers my age don't have time to learn a whole new system and setting just because one weirdo wants to play it. And I find it hard to run these new systems without having played them first, so I think I'd be a poor teacher, anyway. So this means that a lot of the time, if I want to play something, it's probably going to have to be D&D.

That said, I sometimes get frustrated with some of D&D's basic rules. I'm all for point buy for stats instead of rolling them, just because I think that's a bit more fair, and I'm pretty sure there's a good rule for that in the DMG or PHB or something. And while the whole earn a bunch of experience until you go up a level and become hugely more powerful seems a little contrived, it does help GMs better operate with the CR rules for creating adventures.

However, if I could break out a little from the class/level mold I think there would be some nice advantages, if not allowed to spiral out of control. Might be good to enforce some kind of class-like rules. Say that for every "x" exp you spend for perks you need to make sure you balance one HP boost with some skills and feats so that nobody goes all HP or all special abilities or straight out combat bonuses.

[SuperG]

Mutants and Masterminds probably goes to far, unfortuneately... unless you do chargen for them all first.

[cjh]

Have you found anything interesting yet?

[Stattick]

I actually had a system created that got rid of the whole class/level thing for D&D. Everything was based on spending XP to improve your character. I even had a system in place to go beyond the normal parameters of the game, buy ANY ability in the game, improve your Stats... it was pretty sweet, but no one in my game group wanted to play with it.

Then 3rd edition D&D came out. Not only did 3rd ed keep all of the same stuff that pissed me off about 2nd and 2.5 editions, but it made alot of them worse. So I immediately gave up on D&D, and vowed to never play any d20 game. I'm not sure if it would even be tweakable to work with 3.5.

Once I get all of my stuff out of boxes (I moved a while back), I would be willing to share it if anyone wanted to look at it.

[Jade Bells Ringing]

...However, if I could break out a little from the class/level mold I think there would be some nice advantages, if not allowed to spiral out of control. Might be good to enforce some kind of class-like rules. Say that for every "x" exp you spend for perks you need to make sure you balance one HP boost with some skills and feats so that nobody goes all HP or all special abilities or straight out combat bonuses.
well, basically, you seem to be attempting to emulate Earthdawn's advancement mechanic. You get Legend Points (XP) and buy up your Talents until you qualify for the next Circle (Level). Then you can go train.

To push players to build up to the next Circle instead of pouring all points into one or two specialities, each Circle has new Talents and the price of the next advance in any one thing increases as you go, making it cost ineffective...

[fruitbane]

That actually sounds neat, trying to adapt the circle system to D&D. I have a passing familiarity with Earthdawn. Wasn't so much my cup of tea, but it had some OK ideas.