So long Eberron

[Wraith2020]

Well, I've come to the sad conclusion that Eberron is just not going to work out for my group.

I love the setting, lots to do, great background and development.

The downside, for my group, is that there is a ton of player stuff. The player's handbook is awesome for this setting. Too bad none of my players want to read it.

Psionics? Forget about it. No one wants to read more rules beyond the PHB.

Why? I don't know. Time, money or something else probably. Or maybe just lazy.

There is so much cool information there, and none of the players seem to have a bit of interest in 'learning' it or getting into the setting.

So I'm going to have to just move on and sell my books.

Rats.



Anyone else have a setting or something like this that didn't work out due to a bit more 'above and beyond' involvement by the players?

[Tori Bergquist]

So no one was having fun in the setting as you were running it?

I write voluminous quantities of material for my campaigns, but I am a firm believer in the idea that everything a player should need to know about the game can, and maybe should, be learned in game. I think that "outside research" works for those who want it, but many players don't have the time, an maybe not even the interest. As an analogy: I may want to see a cool movie, but I won't necessarily be intrested in seeking out the novelization.

I experienced this recently, with a local game I was invited to. It was a fun session, but afterwards I was practically spammed with email from the group site featuring reading material, follow up data, after action reports, you name it. I simply don't have time to read all this and keep up with everything else. When I want to play....I want to PLAY.....not read.

So, I'd say you should only give up on Eberron if your game itself is no fun for the players. Otherwise, if they are enjoying it, then you have done all I think anyone should exect from a good rpg.

[Skywalker]

Well, I've come to the sad conclusion that Eberron is just not going to work out for my group.

I love the setting, lots to do, great background and development.

The downside, for my group, is that there is a ton of player stuff. The player's handbook is awesome for this setting. Too bad none of my players want to read it.

Psionics? Forget about it. No one wants to read more rules beyond the PHB.

Why? I don't know. Time, money or something else probably. Or maybe just lazy.

There is so much cool information there, and none of the players seem to have a bit of interest in 'learning' it or getting into the setting.

So I'm going to have to just move on and sell my books.

Rats.



Anyone else have a setting or something like this that didn't work out due to a bit more 'above and beyond' involvement by the players?

Settings rarely sell to players as much as they sell to GMs. As such, don't go into Eberron with the expectation of having them read the setting. As such, you become the portal through which they play PCs in Eberron.

I recommend running Eberron with just the core books, if that's what they want. Focus first on telling great stories for these characters, and then bring the setting in through providing a colorful backdrop, through character choices and through themes and style. If the setting proves a hit, they will investigate more under their own steam.

[Asmodai]

It took years to 'train' my old group to really get the most out of Eberron - but well worth it.

Then I moved, and I just haven't worked up the inclination of going through the same process again.

[Brian P. Kivari]

Well when there is a setting heavy campaign and there is too much info for my players, I just make it so their characters has not had any kind of interaction in the world so they can learn as they go. Not only their characters but they themselves.

[Asmodai]

The trouble with that approach is that Eberron requires a bit of buy-in. It works much better, and is more fun to DM, when it's doing it's own then rather than just providing a steampunk background to traditional dungeon crawling.

With no investment, interest, or comprehension of the relations between the Dragonmarked Houses, the geopolitical situation after the Last War, the role of Inquisitives, etc. it can be very difficult to develop the more subtle aspects of the setting.

A good campaign needs equal buy-in from all participants. I don't see why players should have any less reason to become familiar with the background than the DM.

[Skywalker]

A good campaign needs equal buy-in from all participants. I don't see why players should have any less reason to become familiar with the background than the DM.

A traditional RPG's participants have different roles. I struggle to see how enforcing "equal" buy in will help the OP. It seems to me that players can buy in to a setting in a different way and still make the game work. For a good example, Ptolus with its 32 page players guide is very well designed to deal with this exact issue.

[Wraith2020]

We meet so infrequently to game that it just isn't in anyone's interest to spend more time than necessary.

It's a shame, but it's true, the player's simply aren't interested in all the nuances of the setting, and I don't have years to get them into all the facets that the setting provides.

It's very setting heavy, and it's simply not going to work for our group.

[RedFox]

Well when there is a setting heavy campaign and there is too much info for my players, I just make it so their characters has not had any kind of interaction in the world so they can learn as they go. Not only their characters but they themselves.

This is a good point. It's also important to make these things interesting in themselves by introduction, otherwise you'll bore your players senseless with exposition.

[Voriof]

A traditional RPG's participants have different roles. I struggle to see how enforcing "equal" buy in will help the OP. It seems to me that players can buy in to a setting in a different way and still make the game work. For a good example, Ptolus with its 32 page players guide is very well designed to deal with this exact issue.

Assuming you can get players interested enough to even read that. The OP seemed to have even less buy in.

I sympathize with him. As a fan of Glorantha, I have a lot of trouble finding new players for the old place. :o

Jeff

[sabbatregent]

With no investment, interest, or comprehension of the relations between the Dragonmarked Houses, the geopolitical situation after the Last War, the role of Inquisitives, etc. it can be very difficult to develop the more subtle aspects of the setting.

A good campaign needs equal buy-in from all participants. I don't see why players should have any less reason to become familiar with the background than the DM.

I completely agree with Skywalker. On traditional games (specifically referring for those with intense backgrounds, such as Eberron) the learning curve is pretty steep. There is are pretty good reasons for not becoming familiar with the background, including:

Time, money or something else probably. Or maybe just lazy.

As the OP says. Laziness is pretty legitimate, IMHO.

The thing here, clearly, lies not with Eberron or the players, but with the specific gaming group. The OP seems clear that if he is to run Eberron ,everyone must read the sourcebook, psionic rules, etc.. However, as some other Eberron (or FR or Ptolus) DM might explain, a lot of players never pick up a campaign sourcebook in their entire lives.

You want to introduce psionics in your game? Throw in some psionic NPCs to 'demonstrate the goods'. Next time, one of the player might be interested in that approach.

No one wants to read the campaign setting? Find a good introductory adventure, make an introductory pamphlet, or device a campaign that slowly showcases the elements of the world.

However, that doesn't seem to be the problem here:

There is so much cool information there, and none of the players seem to have a bit of interest in 'learning' it or getting into the setting.

So I'm going to have to just move on and sell my books.

Rats.

Anyone else have a setting or something like this that didn't work out due to a bit more 'above and beyond' involvement by the players?

Some DMs even forbid the players form reading the setting!

I can tell you that I've never had this problem before, even when running intensive backgrounds, in games like V:tM, Forgotten Realms, Exalted. But mostly because I never asked for player involvement beyond their own interests.

It seems to me the OP have a social problem with the players. If you want to play Eberron, with 'involved players', find a group that your needs. More importantly, talk to your actual players and ASK THEM why they don't want to read the material. You may gain a lot of insight from just talking the thing out. You might discover a)they dislike the premise, b)they don't have the time, c) they want another type of game.

Most people react negatively at imposed reading (in any field, not just RPGs). After you talk to your players, you might wish to consider that also.:)

[JimmieBJr]

A good campaign needs equal buy-in from all participants. I don't see why players should have any less reason to become familiar with the background than the DM.

Because it's not my game.

As a GM, you have to answer a couple pretty big questions for me.

Why on Earth would I want to read one 250+ page book, much less two or three of them to play in a game once a week. I mean, really? I have a full-time job, I'm taking college classes, and I'm the assistant Director of two college choirs. It'd take me the better part of a couple months to read the books, not to mention absorbing enough of the geopolitics of the world, its economies, its societies, and its economic makeup to even begin to approach the "nuances". Then I have to work out how the classes fit into such a world, too?

No thanks.

On the other hand, if the GM were to take a game session to find out what sort of character I might like to play and to talk through a couple ways such a character might fit into the world, I'd leap at it.

I'd also welcome the chance to learn about a world as my character travels through it, seeing the wonders and having them actually be wonderful. It'd give the GM a chance to wow me with the things they think would be cool and to nudge me in the directions of more cool stuff based on how I react to the things I find.

That would be really nice.

[Halloween Jack]

I didn't like the Player's Guide at all and thought it didn't do a very good job of helping me flesh out character backgrounds and habits. What did you like about it?

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Although I'm not a player in the OP's game, I have been playing in Eberron for close to a year.

On the one hand, there's some groovy stuff and I'd rather be in Eberron than Forgotten Realms. On the other hand, I flat out refuse to spend a bunch of money buying the Eberron books, nor am I willing to invest the time to read 'em.

I like settings, but I have a limit to the amount of work I'm willing to put into it. Massive settings (Glorantha seems like one of 'em, Eberron wants to become one, Forgotten Realms is one) strike me as being a cousin to metaplot, and I don't like metaplots. I want to spend my time going off doing cool things, not trying to remember this or that detail.

People that groove on big, complicated settings, good for you. There's plenty of books already out there, and more of 'em on the way. I don't think it means that _I_ should have to groove on it though.

My DM has done the whole "you as players would recognize this as a train [or whatever], but your character has no clue what it is" thing. And it bugs me. I as a player might not know that Eberron has Lightning Rails, but flip that explanation around. "You see a Lightning Rail, which is no real big deal as far as your character is concerned. Basically, it's an elemental power train." If my character doesn't know jack about the world, and _I_ don't know jack about the world, there's no reason for me to buy into what's going on in the game.

All that is my opinion as a player.

As a DM?

I've got one "massive setting", and that's the Palladium Fantasy setting. There's a fair amount of stuff kicking around, but I really don't expect the players to know it. I don't expect them to be interested in a lot of it either, except as it happens to directly impact their character. Having the books that I do means I can pull in elements from where I need or want to in the world, and have it hang together in a consistent fashion. This particular setting has enough details so I don't have to struggle with making something up whole cloth, but it's left me enough room to twist it the way I want or feel the need to.

Different people have a different desire for the level of detail in a game. This applies to rules, as well as settings. In the case of settings (you're on your own when it comes to rules) you can start out with a number of different settings, and add more stuff if you want. If you don't want to, just don't buy the books. If a player really wants to get into the setting too, then they can buy the books (or borrow yours) and start getting immersed in it as well.

If you want to toss your books, obviously that's your choice. I'd say it's not a wise one if you actually happen to like the setting overall though. Eberron doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon, and you'll probably find other folks that love the setting as much as you do. Go ahead and run the game on a deeper level than the players realize. As long as you're doing it for your own personal chuckle, and don't really care if the players notice, it's all good. It'll help you tie the adventures together in a meaningful way, and it could be that the players actually will sit up and take notice after a while.

[Patrick O'Duffy]

I've only run 3 sessions of my Eberron campaign so far, but I'm not having any problems with player buy-in.

I haven't asked anyone to read any sourcebooks, mind you; instead I boiled the setting down to a few short handouts. A one-page precis of the setting's tone and feel, a couple of two-pagers describing races, classes and places in more detail, and a personal info sheet for each player after chargen covering the essentials.

During the chargen session the sourcebooks came out, but I didn't ask anyone to really read them - just flick through, look at the art, and speak up if anything caught their eye. I gave them a bit of a verbal walk-through of the setting, they asked questions where appropriate, and we went into just as much (or as little) detail as desired.

In play, I've done my best to develop the setting as we go, showcasing cool bits (Sharn, the lightning rail), telling the players what their characters would alreayd know whenever appropriate, and doing brief infodumps via NPCs where necessary. It's not the smoothest thing in the world, particularly when the game's plot involves the setting's history (as mine does at the moment), but it works well enough.

It's the same with any detailed setting. The detail is a resource, not a minimum mandated baseline of knowledge, and it's there primarily as an ideamine for GMs. Players don't need to know as much, and it's easy to play in almost any setting without knowing the intricacies. You get a different playstyle if you do know the intricacies, mind you, and if that playstyle is what the GM wants then that's a bit tricky - but for a more-or-less standard game of heroic adventure, you can play a lot while knowing relatively little.

...all that said, I'd really like it if my players decided they wanted to learn more about the setting. But that's a bonus, rather than a requirement. Hell, what I really want right now is to find new players to replace the two that have had to drop out recently; that's much more important.

[Tao Jones]

It sounds a lot like you're trying to run All Of Eberron, which is a task so large it's futile. Run a game set in one of the Five Nations, or one region, or one city. Give the players the option to play stuff from the Eberron books or anything else, but if they want to stick with the basic PHB stuff, you'll still have more game in one chapter of Eberron than you'll be able to run in years.

[Keefe the Thief]

My players don´t have the time or energy to read up on Eberron, but i already figured that, so i
- gave them a .pdf with scans of the pictures that showed best what Eberron was all about
- gave them a one-page .pdf of different Sharn Inquisitive-Articles from the Wotc-Website that shed some light on setting details or led to interesting questions. I also wrote a couple myself
- gave them bits of the Players Guide to read if specific parts of the setting came up in play.

Note that this is the standard stuff i expect for all of my campaigns - i never had players that were as interested in a setting as me. Never would i think about retiring a game because of this - the players are INTERESTED, the just don´t want to do much between sessions.

And for me Eberron is a really light setting, in regard to details. Hmm, but that may stem from the fact that i DM The Dark Eye a lot, a game where most villages get two page write-ups ;)

[BASHMAN]

You were unable to convince your group's person who always plays a fighter to play a warforged with adamantine body?

[Trombone4Hire]

From my recent experience being recruited into a Midnight/D&D game, I have a few bits of advice which may overlap with what others have said.

-Propose a campaign, not a setting. Include things you like about the setting, but limit this to stuff the PCs will already know. An RPG setting is only good insofar as it facilitates the game you want to run.

-Propose the game as a limited-run campaign, not an open-ended exploration of the setting. Players will be more likely to commit to a 10-session campaign than a game of indefinite length for two reasons: 1) they'll know how long their commitment will last, and 2) they'll know you have focus and not waste their time.

-Introduce the setting (as far as it will be explored in the campaign) in relation to something the players know. "It's like D&D, except..." or "Think Indiana Jones, but...". Trying to describe it from scratch may be too much for a player to take in.

-Explain enough in emails or typed descriptions to start the game. Anything more than a page and a half will scare away players. As a logical consequence, handing them the core setting book and saying "read this" is a definite no-no. Including links to some relevant artwork (expecially as is relates to pre-campaign PC knowledge) may be useful too.

-To sum it up, this is good: "I have this cool idea for a short-run campaign, maybe 10 or 12 sessions. It's D&D 3.5, set in the Eberron setting. It's like D&D meets Indiana Jones. I'll email you a little more info if you're interested."

-This is bad: "I want to run an Eberron game. Here is the core book. I don't have a specific campaign in mind, I'm open to whatever you guys want to do. There are these noble houses that have special powers, and some new races including warforged, which are these really cool living constructs that are like regular constructs except..."

Maybe you didn't do anything poorly-strategized and your players still blew off your ideas. In that case, sorry man. :(

[SteveD]

I think I summed up Eberron in about two hundred words. That's not a HUGE player buy-in, surely?

[SteveD]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

Remember, you're a salesman. You gotta sell it. And like a salesman, if they don't bite, move on to your next customer, or your next game.

[Zounds!]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

You see this? This is a plot summary of the first Eberron game I ever ran.

I gave my players a two-page handout summarising the world, but I didn't really expect them to read it. I knew that if I wanted them to remember something existed, I'd have to introduce it in play. Show, don't tell, right?

By the end of that first game, they knew about the halflings on dinosaurs, the lightning rails, the warforged, the airships, the dragonmarked, and so on. They knew about them because they'd spent the game kicking dragonmarked off airships, running over warforged with armoured lightning rails, and being chased over the plains by halflings on velociraptors. It's an approach I highly recommend, especially with a setting as action-packed as Eberron. You can get to the subtle stuff later.

[trechriron]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

Remember, you're a salesman. You gotta sell it. And like a salesman, if they don't bite, move on to your next customer, or your next game.

Brilliant!

[WayneLigon]

There is so much cool information there, and none of the players seem to have a bit of interest in 'learning' it or getting into the setting.

So I'm going to have to just move on and sell my books.


Get rid of your players, not your books. As much as I love gaming, I'd rather not game thatn be stuck with a group like that.

[Ravenclaw74]

I agree with a lot of the earlier posts. Don't try to throw everything at them. Start from their home and move outward. Think of Frodo and Sam in the Lord of the Rings. At first all they know is the Shire. Then slowly they are exposed to stuff that they only heard (maybe) as children's fairy tales. And without people like Gandalf and Aragorn they still would not have know half the dangers or places they saw. And they still have no ideas about the Silmarils, the sons of Feanor, of the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, or the Kingdom of Doriath. Start small and slowly introduce other elements.

[Wraith2020]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

"Nah, let's just play regular D&D." was the answer.

I just don't think that that stuff interests them. They're a good group, I think that they just like the standard D&D. Not a bad thing, just not going to work out.

I've run lots of complicated campaigns so it's nothing new, but the problem is that we're all mid-30's with families and a lot of them just want to come over, sit down game, laugh, have fun and then get going home after 3-5 hours. I think it's more of a time/energy issue, and a general 'not interested' in that setting.

I think they prefer the pick-up and go type of gaming. Savage Worlds was a massive hit. It was quick and we were off. Also I think my interest in gaming, in general, is a bit higher than theirs.

Great information here, and good to know that not every GM has players that salivate at every setting.

[SteveD]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

"Nah, let's just play regular D&D." was the answer.


Salesmanship is as much knowing your customer as your product. These guys ain't biting regardless of buy-in because they don't buy in to anything. They're casual gamers. You can either a) live with that, b) try to change that (very hard) or c) find a new group.

[Wraith2020]

Yup they're casual gamers.

I'm ok with that. The gaming is good, when they're there, it's game on and we have good sessions.

I do know that if I want to get into meatier games (GURPS, etc) -rules wise, or setting heavy games this isn't the group.
Not a hack, it's just where they are with their gaming interests.

[BluSponge]

I just don't think that that stuff interests them. They're a good group, I think that they just like the standard D&D. Not a bad thing, just not going to work out.

Then start out with a regular D&D game set in Eberron. Start them out in a little backwater with hives of dungeons and adventure locals within a day's travel. Keep the weirder parts of Eberron on the periphery to start with, and introduce them slowly as needed. Maybe a goblin warlord with a grafted construct arm, or a crazy malfunctioning warforged mage. The players need to get somewhere half way across the continent. They can ride horses...OR they can take the lightning rail. Then you break out the lightning rail adventure. Focus on the aspects of the setting your players are interested in. Throw in a few hooks along the way and see who bites. Villains are a great way to do this. :)

I think they prefer the pick-up and go type of gaming. Savage Worlds was a massive hit. It was quick and we were off. Also I think my interest in gaming, in general, is a bit higher than theirs.

Go cruise around the Pinnacle forums in the homebrew section and you should find a pretty complete conversion of Eberron. If the players don't have a taste for DnD, meet them half way.

I hate to be non-sympathetic, but I'm involved in the second campaign in a row where the GM has an emmersive knowledge of this huge setting and I just can't bring myself to care about the setting that much. Each time, he's given us an 8-20 page tome of history. Seeing as how I can barely find the time to finish a paperback novel anymore, I just can't muster the energy to delve into the history of the world. Now, if he were to give me a page of knowledge pertinent to my character, that would be different. And, unfortunately, I think my GM gets as frusterated as you are that I/we don't have the same interest in the setting as he does.

Players are a fickle bunch, and you have to know your audience. If they want a regular ole "kick in the door, kill the monster, loot," Eberron can certainly accomodate that. You can either work within that framework and build out upon it (probably easy to do once the game gets going), or you can throw up your hands and quit (which isn't nearly as challenging or as much fun).

Tom
tired from almost three weeks of 9 hour days with only a single day off...

[Wratts]

Rats.
You called? Oh ...


Well, I've had that with practically any game. Depends on the player(s), really.

One player wouldn't read anything else but Shadowrun stuff and fluff. Made any D&D-tailored setting rather pointless to GM for him. Basically, if it isn't Shadowrun, I have to GM games for that player in which he as the player discovers the world along as his characters do.

Only one player I've ever had in my most regular groups would ever get so deeply involved in any game as complex and lengthy as Shadowrun and D&D. He devoured all those books. Even when I GM'ed, I could use him as a reference person for rules and/or setting background.

The rest basically don't have the time, or don't want to spend it.
They just want to play.

[Coplen]

Get rid of your players, not your books. As much as I love gaming, I'd rather not game thatn be stuck with a group like that.

I feel ya, brother. :cool:

[M_Sinistrari]

Salesmanship is as much knowing your customer as your product.

That pretty much sums up how our DM got us going with Ebarron. I really wasn't too interested in the magi-tech or warforged, but the moment he got into describing the Aerenal Elves, I was sold, hook line and sinker.

[Voriof]

That pretty much sums up how our DM got us going with Ebarron. I really wasn't too interested in the magi-tech or warforged, but the moment he got into describing the Aerenal Elves, I was sold, hook line and sinker.

Yeah, I like them too. The gm described them as "Melnebone with less human sacrifice and more zombies." A total lie but it worked. :D

Jeff

[Alvin Frewer]

The downside, for my group, is that there is a ton of player stuff. The player's handbook is awesome for this setting. Too bad none of my players want to read it.

Psionics? Forget about it. No one wants to read more rules beyond the PHB.

Why? I don't know. Time, money or something else probably. Or maybe just lazy.


Sounds to me like the system is part of the problem. I suggest using HeroQuest* of Risus or some other system with unified and simple rules. Then you can focus on selling the setting to them in play, and they don't have to read any additional books to learn the rules, and can play anything with just the basic system.

*Until the generic system is released later this year, it's probably going to be too much effort on your part to convert Eberron. HQ is easy to convert, but the magic system is a trick to puzzle through when converting D&D - I know, I've got an Eberron conversion for it.

Yup they're casual gamers.

Yes, definitely look into more casual friendly systems. It's not the setting that's the problem, as far as I would gather, because it's a pretty awesome setting.

[YorkusRex]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where "Halflings... on a Motherf*cking dinosaur!" elicits a "meh" response.

[Coyraven]

Anyone else have a setting or something like this that didn't work out due to a bit more 'above and beyond' involvement by the players?

All the fricken time- even with Eberron. My players don't like to read in general.

Solutions I have used:

1) For home-made campaigns, I get them involved in the creation of the world. For everything they create, I give them xp.

I also gave xp for player backgrounds and session writeups.

It got them a bit more involved, but the one who didn't want to do it-- didn't like being left behind in xp.

2) Campeign item of the week- Every session becomes an introduction into a specific aspect of the campaign.

I had a plan for an Eberron campaign before timing issues messed things up- the pc's (and some npc's) were going to wake up with amnesia on an airship somewhere in the Mournlands. The only clue to who they were was a cryptic item-- that would lead them on a crazy travel around the world.

I had hoped each session would introduce them into something new as they entered a new port of call. From Dragonmarked Houses to Morgrave, I figured once I had introduced them to everything.. then things could really get going.

3) Laser Focus- this tends to be my standard approach. When there are a lot of toys, like with Eberron, I would pick one toy and concentrate on that to the point of nearly excluding everything else.

I ran a rogue campaign in Sharn and a Kalashtar campaign that ended up using the Age of Worms for a campeign (surprisingly, it converts very well for the race).


In the end, I have just come to the conclusion that I need to concentrate on the aspects of the campaign world that interest me the most. I will make a strong effort to pull the players in, but if they are having fun just coasting along.. then fine.

CR

[BluSponge]

Anyone else have a setting or something like this that didn't work out due to a bit more 'above and beyond' involvement by the players?

One guy I know refuses to play in any era between gunpowder and laser guns.

Of course, he's playing in my SW Rippers game.

I have another friend who is really hesitant to learn new game systems beyond DnD. Granted, he learned 3e when it came out, and once he got the gist of 7th Sea, had a ball! But propose anything else and he's lukewarm at best.

The reason I find this funny is that he's getting his MA in biology with a focus on genetics.

Going back a ways, I remember bringing up 7th Sea to my group. All of them were gung ho except for one guy. He was very "meh" on the swashbuckling thing. So I showed him the color plate on Eisen. "Meh" became "Hell Yeah!" in the scope of about 5 minutes. ;)

It's all about knowing your players...and how to manipulate them. :D

(So yeah, what SteveD said. ;))

Tom

[Wraith2020]

Converting to a different system isn't the issue or the solution. They like D&D 3.x just fine.
So that's not the issue.

They're pretty much ok with just playing the occasional Dungeon Crawl Classic with some loose story between them at this point.

It's enough for their gaming fix.

I certainly wouldn't bust my ass to roll out a huge campaign with lots of cool background, history, toys, races and concepts only to have them just wander to the next small dungeon.

I know the group. This isn't for them.

Wow...4 pages of comments...that was quick!
Good discussion and ideas that I might still implement.

They may end up playing Eberron someday and not even know it, sneaking little things in here and there.

Still, it's a damned shame with such a rich setting not to dive in head first.

[Old Geezer]

Or maybe there are specific elements they don't like.

For instance, my reactions:

Robots -- not in fantasy
Lightning rails -- Dumb. If I want trains, I'm building a model railroad in my basement.
Halflings on velociraptors -- Spare me.

I mean, if I want to do a purely humorous, piss-take one shot, those things might be cool. But I'd walk away from the table if someone seriously suggested those things in a long term game.

Of course, my idea of the perfect fantasy game is PENDRAGON.

So, maybe the setting just didn't interest them and they were too polite to say "Dude, you paid MONEY for this shit? You got BONED!"

[Patrick O'Duffy]

Salesmanship is as much knowing your customer as your product. These guys ain't biting regardless of buy-in because they don't buy in to anything. They're casual gamers. You can either a) live with that, b) try to change that (very hard) or c) find a new group.

SteveD has the right of it, as usual. You can lead a horse to water, but just remember what a wet horse smells like. Um, I mean, you can't make it drink.

Casual gamers will never buy heavily into a setting. So if you're going to run Eberron for these guys, you can't embed games into setting minutiae - at least, not at first. You have to hook them with surface coolness that doesn't require effort to understand - get them intrigued in-game, and follow that interest as it develops.

They like dungeon crawls and traditional D&D? The setting is designed to provide just that - but sometimes with different trappings, different monsters and different NPCs. Present them with a straightforward game, but tweak the trappings, the details and the connections, as others have already suggested, and see if they bite.

And if they don't - well, you can still keep using the setting. Just because they won't delve into Eberron doesn't mean that you can't keep using it as a source of plots and ideas. There's a level at which setting detail only matters to the GM, and there's nothing wrong with that. Let the players skim the surface, while you go a bit deeper for your purposes; everyone gets something out of it.

[Tori Bergquist]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

Remember, you're a salesman. You gotta sell it. And like a salesman, if they don't bite, move on to your next customer, or your next game.

You're version of Eberron is MUCH cooler than the one I've got on my shelves....or had, until I sold it, because it wasn't nearly as interesting as that FRICKIN AWESOME SETTING YOU JUST DESCRIBED!!!! Seriously!:eek:

Oddly, when I read your description, my fist animal impulse was to grab my copy of Hollow Earth Expedition and start playing....hmmmm!

[loconius]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

Remember, you're a salesman. You gotta sell it. And like a salesman, if they don't bite, move on to your next customer, or your next game.

Yeah, that is an awesome way to convey to the players!!!

but seriously, don't tell them the setting they are playing in, they clearly don't care what the setting is! just let them know your there to run the next session of DND and when the players ask ssomething like "what's the name of the city," or "What does the barkeep look like," you say "The town is called sharn, there are towers everywhere," or "he looks like c3po, except badass!"

[Alvin Frewer]

Robots -- not in fantasy

There are none. There are golems. They are more prevalent because magic is more prevelant. And because a massive century long war just ended so a lot of golems were made because they're pretty good as war machines. And the PC constructs are sapient with emotions and all that, but that's even further from most robots. They are analogous to robots, but they are not robots.

Its not for exclusive fans of low fantasy, obviously. It's made for lovers of high fantasy and made from all the elements of D&D that allow for high fantasy but end up with settings that are strictly medieval + magic.

It's cooler in context than SteveD's 1950's Ad-man take (way cooler).

[loconius]

There are none. There are golems. They are more prevalent because magic is more prevelant. And because a massive century long war just ended so a lot of golems were made because they're pretty good as war machines. And the PC constructs are sapient with emotions and all that, but that's even further from most robots. They are analogous to robots, but they are not robots.

Its not for exclusive fans of low fantasy, obviously. It's made for lovers of high fantasy and made from all the elements of D&D that allow for high fantasy but end up with settings that are strictly medieval + magic.

It's cooler in context than SteveD's 1950's Ad-man take (way cooler).

i personally enjoy the war machines in Iron Kingdoms, but that's steam punk not fantasy. i would have to say i like the warhammer style of fantasy... but eberron is a fun setting [its a toss up between eberron and forgotten realms for me, i love the realms too!!!]

[Tao Jones]

Eberron is the only setting I've seen where anything about D&D makes a lick of sense.

[mrlost]

Eberron is the only setting I've seen where anything about D&D makes a lick of sense.
I'm very close to sigging that for truth.

Currently I'm in the process of prepping for this B.P.R.D. style Karrnathi Covert Ministry game. I ran a one shot that sold my group on it, even though most of them had been in the meh category when it came to Eberron only a week ago. I'm not good at selling games, I'm good at running them.

[SteveD]

You're version of Eberron is MUCH cooler than the one I've got on my shelves....or had, until I sold it, because it wasn't nearly as interesting as that FRICKIN AWESOME SETTING YOU JUST DESCRIBED!!!! Seriously!:eek:


Instant awesome: Just Add Steve.

[MikeJW]

ROBOTS! HALF-WEREWOLVES! AN EMPIRE SHATTERED AFTER A WORLD WAR! AIRSHIPS! TRAINS! MORE ROBOTS! LIVING SPELLS! POWER MARKS! MULTINATIONAL MERCANTILE HOUSES PLANNING BEHIND THE SCENES! INTRIGUE! ACTION! EXPLOSIONS! HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!

Remember, you're a salesman. You gotta sell it. And like a salesman, if they don't bite, move on to your next customer, or your next game.


Maybe they're like me and dont want all that in a fantasy game. In fantasy I dont want:

ROBOTS! Even if they're not robots. They are robots, but they're not. I dont want 'em either way.
HALF-WEREWOLVES! Or half anything.
AIRSHIPS!
TRAINS!
MORE ROBOTS!
POWER MARKS
HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!


So maybe they dont want to read Eberron stuff, maybe they're lazy, or maybe they're like some of us and all that stuff that makes you get all giddy with anticipation makes them all naseous with contempt. Or something.

[Dragon_Blooded]

You're version of Eberron is MUCH cooler than the one I've got on my shelves....or had, until I sold it, because it wasn't nearly as interesting as that FRICKIN AWESOME SETTING YOU JUST DESCRIBED!!!! Seriously!:eek:

Oddly, when I read your description, my fist animal impulse was to grab my copy of Hollow Earth Expedition and start playing....hmmmm!

I had a really lukewarm reaction to Eberron when I saw the previews years ago, until, after reading a couple of threads here (by SteveD and others), I realized it wasn't a regular fantasy setting like Forgotten Realms: it was Pulp, set in D&D-land Or D&D set in Pulp-land, whatever. It went from "meh" to "Awesomest 3e setting evar" (in fact, the only D&D settings I like more are Planescape and Dark Sun) in seconds.

In fewer words: if you don't like pulp, Eberron isn't really half as fun as it could be.

Eduardo Penna

[Halloween Jack]

ROBOTS! Even if they're not robots. They are robots, but they're not. I dont want 'em either way.
HALF-WEREWOLVES! Or half anything.
AIRSHIPS!
TRAINS!
MORE ROBOTS!
POWER MARKS
HALFLINGS ON MOTHERFUCKING DINOSAURS!
I agree, I also wasn't enticed by OMG KEWL ROBOTS, WHAT ARE YOU RETARDED HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY NOT WANT ROBOTS IN A FANTASY GAME WTF. Until I accepted that Eberron is Final Fantasy D&D, so it's cool. But robots and airships aren't a selling point. I don't know why anyone cares about the shifters; I don't think they're interesting at all.

[SteveD]

I did make the point about knowing your market, guys. That pitch would only work on some people.

There are other ways to pitch Eberron for other people. Duh.

And for some people, there is NO way to pitch Eberron to suit their tastes because they just won't like it.

[Nelzie]

The trouble with that approach is that Eberron requires a bit of buy-in. It works much better, and is more fun to DM, when it's doing it's own then rather than just providing a steampunk background to traditional dungeon crawling.

With no investment, interest, or comprehension of the relations between the Dragonmarked Houses, the geopolitical situation after the Last War, the role of Inquisitives, etc. it can be very difficult to develop the more subtle aspects of the setting.

A good campaign needs equal buy-in from all participants. I don't see why players should have any less reason to become familiar with the background than the DM.

If a group of players are looking for more subtle aspects in a campaign, they will learn the setting in play by asking the right questions, taking the right course of actions or through reading the setting books.

My homespun campaign world is as deep or as wide as the players wish it to be. Initially, my thoughts on the campaign was to create an epic series of dungeon crawls, finding lost treasures and magic as the relative peace in the lands began to unravel as a new 'Evil' rose up in the world. Well, there's still an 'Evil' rising, there's still a few dungeon crawls. However, the majority of the campaign has become a series of intertwining character relationships between the party and a very large host of NPCs that the players have actually crafted strong ties and developed powerful feelings over.

Now, I have always planned this on being a player driven campaign, with the backdrop being the 'Evil' rising and doing its thing regardless of what the PCs do. I just hadn't realized that this would result in me needing to plan out a wedding between two NPCs, create a game of chance and throw a number of grand social events and small parties for the PCs.

Anyway, all I am saying is that my players decided to breath life into the "subtle" aspects of the campaign world and create more intrigue than I originally planned out. If your players aren't looking for that in a campaign, then there's nothing to fret over, just go with the flow and see where that takes you. It could end up being surprisingly fun.

[renatoram]

My take? You cannot sell them on Eberron.

Actually, you probably cannot sell them on any setting.

That's why they enjoy the casual dungeon delving: it has NO setting.

Am I wrong?

[Nelzie]

There are none. There are golems. They are more prevalent because magic is more prevelant. And because a massive century long war just ended so a lot of golems were made because they're pretty good as war machines. And the PC constructs are sapient with emotions and all that, but that's even further from most robots. They are analogous to robots, but they are not robots.

Its not for exclusive fans of low fantasy, obviously. It's made for lovers of high fantasy and made from all the elements of D&D that allow for high fantasy but end up with settings that are strictly medieval + magic.

It's cooler in context than SteveD's 1950's Ad-man take (way cooler).

Golems are Fantasy Robots. They always do traditional "Robot" things, they just have a "Magic" method of being constructed.

[SteveD]

My take? You cannot sell them on Eberron.

Actually, you probably cannot sell them on any setting.

That's why they enjoy the casual dungeon delving: it has NO setting.

Am I wrong?

HOOVER DAM! The skipper's a genius!

[renatoram]

HOOVER DAM! The skipper's a genius!

Uh... I'll assume it's a sign of appreciation and thank you :D

(english not being my native language and so on...)

[SteveD]

Uh... I'll assume it's a sign of appreciation and thank you :D

(english not being my native language and so on...)

It was a reference to your excellent avatar!

[renatoram]

It was a reference to your excellent avatar!

Oh, I actually have not seen Madagascar yet, but I needed a mad penguin, and remembered him from the movie trailers... making him a "goplay mad penguin" was only a matter of some Inkscape editing (notice that the beak shadow is cast on the goplay symbol too) :)