D&D 3.5: Master Diplomat

[Donald K.]

I was thinking, and I remember reading about a character "build" in D&D that let you have an insane amount of ranks in Diplomacy at a relatively low level, but I couldn't remember how it worked.

So, short story long, I joined the WotC boards in order to do a search for it in the "Character Optimization" (It's not bad, and besides, picking a longsword instead of a short sword is min/maxing too! Yeah, whatever. (No, really, something akin to that is in their FAQ)) boards. Their search function is turned off though, since it uses too much bandwidth. Or something.

So, I did a search here, but I couldn't find it.

End result, I decided to ask. Can anybody post it? Please? :o

[Wakshaani]

Well, a 2nd level Paladin with Charisma 15 can take 5 ranks in Diplomacy, with a +2 bonus for Sense Motive and +2 more for Knowledge: Royalty.

If an Aristocrat instead, there's another +2 for Bluff.

Toss in Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for a 1st level feat and Negotiator for being a human, and you get: 5 (Ranks) + 2 (Cha) + 2 (Bluff) +2 (Sense) + 2 (Knowledge: Royalty), +3 (Focus) + 2 (Negotiator) = +18 at 2nd level.

That's a lil' bit good.

[Donald K.]

No, it was using Half-Elf as a race, and I think the class was something like Bard or Rogue... I can't remember though. Some feats, too.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that in the beginning.

[Zato-2TWO]

Diplomacy has three skills that give it synergy, so tossing some points into Bluff, Knowledge (Royalty) and Sense Motive will give you a free +6, stacked on top of the 5 ranks you get at ECL 2 you've already got a +11 Diplomacy, not forgetting that a CHA bonus can take this from anywhere between +12 to +15. Toss in Skill Focus and Negotiator and you've got something between +17 to +20. The Courtier (from Rokugan), which is basically 'Diplomat: The Base Class' has an ability called Talent, where they get a +4 for Skill Focus instead of the usual +3 if taken with a social skill, so that boosts it all the way to +18/+21 at 2nd level!

[Sleeper]

I was thinking, and I remember reading about a character "build" in D&D that let you have an insane amount of ranks in Diplomacy at a relatively low level, but I couldn't remember how it worked.

So, short story long, I joined the WotC boards in order to do a search for it in the "Character Optimization" (It's not bad, and besides, picking a longsword instead of a short sword is min/maxing too! Yeah, whatever. (No, really, something akin to that is in their FAQ)) boards. Their search function is turned off though, since it uses too much bandwidth. Or something.

So, I did a search here, but I couldn't find it.

End result, I decided to ask. Can anybody post it? Please? :o
You can Google public boards (use "site:wizards.com").

This? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=371519) Or this (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-163146)?

[Kintara]

A Half-Elf Bard with the right racial substitution levels from Races of Destiny has some cool "diplomancer" abilities. There's not really much of a trick to raising your Diplomacy score through the roof, as mentioned above.

If you really want, you can take Skill Focus, Negotiator, and maybe the Sacred Vow feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds. I think another trick is to take a level or two in Marshal from the Minis Handbook.

[ShanG]

If you're not looking for the 'World Record Diplomacy' build (which you can find in the 'World Records' thread, and has +200 at level 20), you probably should probably check it out. Taking some of the classes used, at a low level you can get:

Half Elf (+2 Racial)
Attribute (Up to +4 at Leve 1)
Skill Ranks (Level +3)
Synergy (Up to +9 with the feat 'Complementary Insight
Bard (Half-Elf Substitution Level gives 'Soothing Voice')
Warlock (+6 from Beguiling Influence)
Marshal (+2 from Skill Focus: Diplomacy)

That's easily +25 or higher at Level 3, and the Half-Elf Bard Substitution Level lets you cast Calm Emotions with your Skill Check Result as the Will Save DC to resits.

[Donald K.]

Argh. I don't have all your crazy alternate books. :D
I do gots the Races of Destiny/the Wild/Stone series, so I'll check that out. Thanks guys.

Edit- What's this 'Nymph's Kiss' feat I keep seeing? I don't recall ever seeing it in a book before...

[Silent Wayfarer]

Fred the Diplomancer (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-452425) gets +72 Diplomacy checks at level 6

The current level 20 world record at +222. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=371519)

+128 Diplomacy checks at level 20 without items. (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-684349)

Nymph's Kiss is in BoED. The implication is that you make naughty noises with some fey for bonuses to stuff.

[ShanG]

Nymph's Kiss is from the Book of Exalted Deeds, which is a late 3.0 / early 3.5 supplement widely renowned for all the crazy broken stuff you can find in there.

More specifically, it amounts to "Dude! You tapped that Nymph hottie? High five!" (The high five is represented by a +4 to diplomacy checks. :P )

[Xenu's Paradox]

Word for word from the BoED:

Nymph's Kiss [Exalted]
By maintaining an intimate relationship with a good-aligned fey (suc as a nymph or dryad), you gain some of the characteristics of fey.
Benefit: Fey creatures regard you as though you were fey. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on all Charisma-related checks, and a +1 bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. Starting with the level when you take this feat, you gain 1 extra skill point per level.

[Donald K.]

More specifically, it amounts to "Dude! You tapped that Nymph hottie? High five!" (The high five is represented by a +4 to diplomacy checks. :P )
Best. Feat description. Ever.
You can have a laugh point, if you'd like. :)

[ShanG]

Thank you! :D

Though I stand corrected as to what the actual bonus is. It's actually a pretty sweet feat, and the prerequisites certainly aren't anything to complain about. ;)

[RSC]

If you're not looking for the 'World Record Diplomacy' build (which you can find in the 'World Records' thread, and has +200 at level 20), you probably should probably check it out. Taking some of the classes used, at a low level you can get:

Half Elf (+2 Racial)
Attribute (Up to +4 at Leve 1)
Skill Ranks (Level +3)
Synergy (Up to +9 with the feat 'Complementary Insight
Bard (Half-Elf Substitution Level gives 'Soothing Voice')
Warlock (+6 from Beguiling Influence)
Marshal (+2 from Skill Focus: Diplomacy)
Marshal also lets you add Charisma twice. Then, if I'm remembering correctly, there's some alternate familiar somewhere that adds to diplomacy and whatever those crystal familiar-like things that psionicists get that can also add another +2.

Basically, you just multiclass like a crazy person until you're not good at anything else.

[loconius]

The government is giving me one sharp thrust up the tail pipe with its filters. aparently Twink is a porn word and is banned... so go to google and search for "The Bard Twink" you'll find an article about taking the tried and true knowledge of min/maxing and munchkin powergaming and applying it to the bard class.

in no time you can have a character with such a high bluff skill he can convince the king that his mother didn't "actually" have him and that you are the actul king. then you can interject when his mother tries to interrupt stating that the women is actually Cthulu in human form and if he kills her quick she won't have any of her powers!

after you have your new kingdom in tow you can simply roam the country side till some fighter twink tries to toil with you, and you can convince him that your his only surviving brother [of which he thought he had none since his family was killed by red dragons] and that he should be your life long body guard!

of course all this would need a social resolution system that wasn't based totally on GM fiat... so make a fighter twink and just make sure YOU can convence the GM that your the true king and that the kingdom was actuall yours... ;-)

seriously though, Bard Twink on google was how i found it at home... guess i should do some work or something huh...?

[RedFox]

Half-elf is a must. It's so trivial to pump your Diplomacy to insane levels that you can afford to think about other things as well...

...such as Skill Mastery (so you can take 10 even in stressful situations with Diplomacy) or some way to compensate for the -10 penalty to make a Diplomacy check in a single round.

[RedFox]

of course all this would need a social resolution system that wasn't based totally on GM fiat... so make a fighter twink and just make sure YOU can convence the GM that your the true king and that the kingdom was actuall yours... ;-)

The only thing explicitly left up to fiat with Diplomacy is the initial attitude of the NPC you encounter. Worst they can do to you is "Hostile."

A Diplomacy twink can ratchet that up to "bestest busom buds" real quick.

[loconius]

I was thinking, and I remember reading about a character "build" in D&D that let you have an insane amount of ranks in Diplomacy at a relatively low level, but I couldn't remember how it worked.

So, short story long, I joined the WotC boards in order to do a search for it in the "Character Optimization" (It's not bad, and besides, picking a longsword instead of a short sword is min/maxing too! Yeah, whatever. (No, really, something akin to that is in their FAQ)) boards. Their search function is turned off though, since it uses too much bandwidth. Or something.

So, I did a search here, but I couldn't find it.

End result, I decided to ask. Can anybody post it? Please? :o

Here is exactly what you were looking for, free of government prying eyes!

So I asked a difficult thing of you. I asked for a bard twink. I understand that the bards have little to no class specific skills except for bardic music. That was the idea. I get a dozen Monk twinks every day, but I wanted something different. I wanted to make you think. What I got was a bunch of confused letters, people writing in a daze asking me if I was serious, if I knew the impossible task I had set before them. Then they gave me their submissions. The vast majority of them involved multi-classing in some fashion and then twiking out the second class while ignoring the bard. I'm sorry but your level 1 bard/ level 5 monk with the incredible flying kick damage wasn't what I was looking for. Of the dozens of people who sent stuff in only a few got close and only one captured my attention enough to put him here. I liked this one because it relied entirely upon what a bard is in concept, rather than what a bard is on paper (if that makes any sense). Also the match-ups were fantastic. Within 12 hours I had over 150 letters. I feel sorry that my schedule precluded me from reading them all. I picked the best from what I did read and now we'll talk about them here. I'm sure each response will generate a truck load of corrections or insults. OK enough of my prattling, here we go!

Dear Red Mage,

As soon as I saw your request for a Bard twink, I had load up hotmail and tell you about my Bard! What's he based on? The power of Suggestion! Goal! (that'd make sense if you've ever seen Harry Hill).

Obviously if I wanted to go with it, I'd have to focus on enchantment, and I'd noticed a feat in Song and Silence that I just had to go for. Alluring. It gives a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and to the DCs of your mind-affecting language-dependant spells. Unfortunately it requires you to take Persuasive (+2 to Bluff and Intimidate) and Trustworthy (+2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information) first. Which was annoying, but it's fine since they're all very useful skills. So I took those two at 1st level (I was Human) and then at 3rd level, I took Spell Focus (enchantment) since all mind affecting language-dependent spells are enchantment spells. Then at 6th level take Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) and at 9th level take Alluring. Disguise Spell at level 12 wouldn't be a bad choice either ;)

As for skills, be sure to maximise Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perform and at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty) and, if possible, Knowledge (History). The ranks in the knowledge are simply for the synergy they provide to diplomacy and bardic knowledge checks, respectively. But bear in mind that the synergy bonuses from knowledge are only in 3.5. Now, by 4h level, with a Charisma of 18, you'd have a +19 bonus to Diplomacy checks, pretty darn good for getting people to like you, especially shopkeepers ;)

However, the more important thing twinkwise is spells. At 4th level, you get 6 0-level spells, 3 1st-level spells and 2 2nd-level spells. The 0-level spells aren't too important, you can pick those for yourself, although if you want to use Sleep be sure to take Lullaby. Anyway, at 1st-level you should take Charm Person and optionally Tasha's Hideous Laughter (lasts 1 round a level now, but it's only 1st-level if you're in 3.5), Cure Light Wounds (I was stuck without a cleric, and it's useful to be able to do it yourself anyway), Disguise Self (mostly if you can't afford the ranks in the skill, and since you ought to be up to some very suspicious activities with such high Bluff and Diplomacy skills), Identify (always useful) or Sleep. As for the all-important 2nd-level spells, take Suggestion (fun for all) and Enthrall (the perfect distraction). You should be able to come up with how to use them, but convincing a large group of people to listen to your opinions on why the sky is blue with Entrall makes a good distraction while your friends break into and subsequently ransack a house, or to merely help your rogue friend sneak past a couple of guards. Suggestion is useful for pretty much anything from selling an item for ridiculous prices, convincing a guard to let you off of a crime, or convincing an adversary that he is clearly out-matched and should surrender (which worked quite well when an Assassin came after me and I managed to find out who employed him, and get a written confession). I've also used Suggestion to convince the two main fighters in my party that were under a fear effect to find their courage and charge the demon that caused it (requiring them to fail their save and me to win the opposed charisma check against the demon).

However, the full twinkiness of this doesn't quite reach full effect until you reach 7th level when you take Glibness. It's a new spell in 3.5 that lasts 10 minutes per level and gives you a +30 to bluff checks when you lie and helps you against magical detection of said lies by means of a caster level check from the person using Discern Lies or whatever other magical means. Your other should probably be Lesser Geas if you can fit it. At this point, your Diplomacy bonus should be +22 and your Bluff bonus should be +16. Here's where the fun comes in, as you realise that you can increase your Bluff bonus to +46 and get away with murder.

In fact, at this point, you can also use suggestion through your bardic music and by using the rules in the epic level handbook that allow you to instill a suggestion in someone if you give them a +50 bonus to their Sense Motive check (sure they've got a higher bonus than you do, but a Circlet of Persuasion, or an Eagle's Splendour spell can help out, and don't forget that you can do this as much as you want whilst Glibness lasts). As for Lesser Geas, well sending someone on a quest to buy some magic items for you or getting an adversary to forget about killing you and go to some place halfway across the world won't cause any harm... to you :) Although it should be pointed out that Lesser Geas won't stop someone from trying to kill you immediately, but a Suggestion could get him started on his new quest and Lesser Geas can keep him on it. Just remember that this twink will have your Suggestion, Enthrall and Lesser Geas spells at a DC of 22 by level 9 (if you're in normal 3rd Edition) or a DC of 19 if you remember that the benefits granted by Spell Focus have been lowered to +1 instead of +2. However, the plans you can execute with this combination of enchantment spells are endless. For example, I'm currently planning to make a nice sum of money by using Nystul's Magic Aura on some masterwork weapons, using Glibness, Suggestion and Diplomacy to sell them at 'great' prices and of course using Disguise Self so that no one will be coming after me once they realise the weapons aren't magical at all.

A dedicated column-reader,

Matthew Rihan

[mrlost]

Marshals for Mini's handbook get Skill Focus Diplomacy for free at 1st, plus Diplomacy, Knowledge (all), and Sense motive as class skills. And as mentioned previous he can add his CHA bonus twice with the right Aura (Motivate Charisma).

A second level half-elf Marshal with a Charisma score of 18 is looking at
Diplomacy 5 + synergy bonus from Knowledge Nobility 5 of +2 and Sense Motive 5 of +2 +His charisma +4 + Motivate Charisma +4 + Skill Focus Diplomacy +3 + racial bonus of +2 = +22 + whichever Diplomacy enhancing feat he picks at first level is going to have at least a +24 at 2nd level.

[Sadurian Mike]

I did a similar thing with a conman, using Bluff instead of Diplomacy. It can be done (using Feats and the flaw-things that are not really flaws - traits?). My level 1 character had so many Bluff points that the GM eventually stopped asking for rolls against non-major NPCs.

Sadly, the actual build is lost in the mists of time (and the GM got bored with the campaign).