"Holistic Design... as another fatality of the d20 boom and bust."

[buzz]

I'm not sure I understand how we reach the conclusion that d20 killed Holisitc. They released two d20 Fading Suns books that received moderate reviews and one dual-stat bestiary, four slim d20 books in a line (Real Life) that focused on probably the poorest-selling RPG genre in existence (i.e., real life military/police), and a remake of an RPG nobody ever heard of (Rapture) and that was minimally advertised. Heck, I hardly remember much advertising at all for their d20-era products (anecdotal, I know).

I'm not discounting the d20 bust as a factor, but isn't it far more reasonable to assume that what few products they were releasing simply didn't appeal to many gamers was probably a bigger factor? Not to mention Bridges' departure.

[ShannonA]

Fading Suns seemed to be doing very well before d20 and after d20 it was pretty much dead.

I don't see how you can say major factors in the company's demise weren't: (1) d20 cutting into all indie games sales -and- (2) Holistic tieing their horse to d20 just as it was going down.

[Dulahan]

All the devotion to d20 could have been put to putting out long awaited books like Pantheon. I know I was not the only fan who was extremely alienated when new D20 books (The Core book, and then the reprint of the players guide, and later other reprints) kept coming out and not the book we'd been waiting for.


A lot of the fans felt it was a betrayal of sorts, like they started making all these weird things none of us cared about, and time went on... no new FS books.

To be fair, there is more to HDI than just RPGs, the company was/is a computer game company too, and at least one vaporwear title no doubt contributed to its demise (Ironically, a Fading Suns game, Noble Armada). It's a shame, since I would have killed to have them stay successful so we could have gotten a sequel to Emperor of the Fading Suns as well!

[buzz]

I don't see how you can say major factors in the company's demise weren't: (1) d20 cutting into all indie games sales -and- (2) Holistic tieing their horse to d20 just as it was going down.
I also am not sure how true your point #1 is. And, we're classifying HDI as "indie"?

Otherwise, I would direct you to Dulahan's comments. There was obviously more going than just, "They went d20 and it killed them."

[Pierce Inverarity]

Actually, by the merely formal "creator-owned" definition HDI qualifies for "indie" status. And it's just as clear that in this period sales of non-d20 games by companies of HDI's size were badly hit as the glut was building. I would say though that another factor that contributed to their demise was that FS was pretty much done at that point. Pantheon wouldn't have saved them. A new, non-d20 game with the coolness of FS might have. But they clearly decided the market wasn't there, and who's to disprove them?

[buzz]

Actually, by the merely formal "creator-owned" definition HDI qualifies for "indie" status.
Their products have a wide range of authors, i.e., freelancers contributing to their product lines. That's not "creator owned," unless you also want to count, e.g., Palladium and SJG as such.

[Pierce Inverarity]

I was talking about Fading Suns, a roleplaying game, and am not interested in taking the discussion down tangency lane.

[buzz]

I was talking about Fading Suns, a roleplaying game, and am not interested in taking the discussion down tangency lane.
Neither do I, really, but you posted the assertion. :)

Anyway, I appreciate your other insights. Let's hope that the deal with RedBrick will keep the FS line alive.

[ShannonA]

My use of the word "indie" was sloppy. d20 took a chunk out of just about any non-d20 sales.

As for other factors: yes. I'd be interested in hearing more about how Noble Armada's vaporware status could have contributed to the demise of the company.