Speed Based Melee [speculative, cards?]

[Meera Barry]

The reason I am posting this to the design forum rather than the main is because if something like this DOESN'T exist, I'd like some opinions as to how to develop it...

I'm finding that turn-based combat resolution is becoming increasingly, well, "archaic" is the word that occurs. Similarly, any variant of "declared action" wherein we get to sit back and talk about the combat rather than actually doing it.

I want my players to experience the fight a little more. Rather than making them find duct tape, plastic pipes, and padded cotton armour, I was thinking maybe there might be some sort of pre-existing, almost "stock market" style resolution I might be able to adapt to my game?

I was thinking of maybe using a speed-style card game, with limited "cards" based on number of actions someone could make... perhaps a step from just using "Lunch Money" to resolve all melee encounters... [grin]

What I want it to do is (in order of most important to least):
1) Be fast-paced with minimum attention necessary.
2) Allow players to have actions happen irrelevant to any "declared order"...as in, no artificially rolled initiative, no "OK, he's hurt, I'll move to heal him now," wherein the _chaos_ of a melee is better experienced.
3) Relate to a character's statistics in the sense of high combat statistics having more opportunities in battle.

Any thoughts? Any place to point me? Is this totally infeasible and I'm just looking for more ways to get players to jump through hoops to amuse me?

Thanks in advance...

[Andrew Martin]

You could try my "S" system. It's designed for cinematic and realistic combat. It's described at http://valley.150m.com/S/S.html. Then there's Swashbuckler at http://www.indie-rpgs.com/review.html?num=70 which I found while looking for another site that might be helpful. Then there's this one on a mailing list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-create/message/15521. And this is one that I was really looking for: http://www.lester.smith.net/blades.htm.

I hope those help in some way.

[Shawn Conard]

Take a look at the friendly card game known as Brawl. It is a James Ernest game, which means it probably sells right next to the CheapAss Games (it being the same guy, and all).

Brawl is like speed. A lot like speed. There are multiple decks, each representing a slightly different style of play, but you only need to buy a deck once--this isn't collectable like Magic the Gathering. And it takes about a minute to play through a game. It takes another minute to clean up the cards after the game ends.

Umm... If you have any questions about it, or can't find it in stores, then say something.

~Shawn Conard

[14thWarrior]

Absolutely, BRAWL is an excellent model for a more 'real time' combat system.

You can check it out at http://www.cheapassgames.com

It would probably be easy enough to adapt the BRAWL mechanic to whatever fighting genre is involved, to account for armor, dodging ability etc.

You could use printable business card blanks to create the decks for each character and villain.

The only thing I'd be concerned about is the the number of decks the GM would need for the bad guys, characters' ability to switch opponents or attack other opponents (although BRAWL has multiplayer rules that could serve as a base model for such rules).

I'm sure there are few more issues that would require dealing with; but I bet it's a workable idea.

[Sarim Rune]

Hmmm,
I like what you're saying here. I believe that many of us have tried to figure out how to make combat faster or smoother yet truly chaotic.
Some things to consider:
- Visuals: I like adding visual references to a fight scene. I can only really do that in a combat where we can take a moment to consider what occurs. I can't add things like, "the monster leaps up and impales itself on your sword. But amazingly, it's still alive and trying to claw you." if the system flows too quickly.

- A card based system is tricky. I've never played Brawl. I've read about it and tried my best to learn the rules on-line. So I understand it in theory. It would certainly be fast and chaotic, but it may be too speedy. It begins, it's over in a minute. Few ways for the GM to 'fudge' the rules if the player needs to win or lose a fight.

- Marvel put out a Saga edition rules that used cards. Five suites of cards were used in a rather simple system. Throw a card down, if it's your 'trump' suite you get to draw the top card (i.e. Hulk represented strength, so if you were using a strength related ability or power, you got to draw another card). In the Marvel system the more experienced you were, the more cards you had. So new hero has 3 cards, while Captain America has 6 cards. Your cards represent both your options (i.e. Cap has more options than a new hero) AND your health. All damage was 'paid' for by your cards. So if you take 10 points of damage, you could toss a 10 point card, or a 8 and a 2 point card. It's actually quite a good system. But it is all about superheroes. And there are some flaws with it. But it was speedy and exciting to boot.

- Players like their dice. It's a weak arguement but we've been using dice for so long, I'm not sure how easily it would be for a viable game to use something other than dice. Cards may limit your player base. Players HAVE to play with your brand of cards, loosing cards becomes a pain, using a regular playing deck offers no atmosphere, etc.

- Players might get frustrated if they character is unable to do anything, due to the 'chaotic atmosphere'. Not that you should be discouraged from trying something new.

I realize that despite what I am working on, I'm a slave to the turns. Sigh.

[Andrew Martin]

Originally posted by Sarim Rune - Marvel put out a Saga edition rules that used cards. Five suites of cards were used in a rather simple system. Throw a card down, if it's your 'trump' suite you get to draw the top card (i.e. Hulk represented strength, so if you were using a strength related ability or power, you got to draw another card). In the Marvel system the more experienced you were, the more cards you had. So new hero has 3 cards, while Captain America has 6 cards. Your cards represent both your options (i.e. Cap has more options than a new hero) AND your health. All damage was 'paid' for by your cards. So if you take 10 points of damage, you could toss a 10 point card, or a 8 and a 2 point card. It's actually quite a good system. But it is all about superheroes. And there are some flaws with it. But it was speedy and exciting to boot.


Just to clear things up a little. The game is called Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game (MSHAG). It's made by TSR, which is now WoTC, which now HasBro? MSHAG was derived from a earlier game by TSR called Dragonlance Fifth Age, which was a fantasy setting. I believe both games are no longer produced, though some shops might have them on their shelves.

[Mokkurkalfe]

If you don't want rounds a la D20, then you could use the "Time Unit Combat System" by Nils-Børge Malkenes. It's a mod for AD&D 2nd Ed, available at http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/byzantium/55/tucs.htm.
The game Western use a similar system as well.

With this system, you start at round 0. Everybody declare their action(at the same time) and make a "speed-roll", modified by your characters speed with his weapon. If you get a 5 for example, then your action will take place at round 5. When the battle is at round 5, you will decide your next action, or if you want to cancel your action at, sayround 3, then you roll the "speed-roll" from there.

If you don't understand:confused: , then follow the link above.

[Mokkurkalfe]

Bugger!:mad:
The link doesn't work!

Anyway, if you want to see it, write Time Unit Combat System in a search engine. I was able to get there from Google.

[indra]

Nameless: The Fastest RPG in the West
http://www.imeg-games.com/nameless

I designed the Nameless RPG to be as fast-playing as I could. I've been playtesting it for over 3 years and I think I've squeezed about as much slowness out of the system as is humanly possible. It uses a standard deck of playing cards and no initiative system at all.

L8r, --Dan

P.S. It's funny that you mention Lunch Money, because that's _exactly_ the gameplay Nameless is meant to emulate. In fact, it was Lunch Money that got me wanting faster RPG combat in the first place.