Anyone else obsessively refreshing the Star Wars rpg page? [merged]

[Xenu's Paradox]

in anticipation of the new Saga edition preview?

[Alnag]

Sure. No doubt about it. I am really looking forward to this preview. Saga will be definitely be the next big thing in RPG industry. Based on the greatest system ever with ultimately cool setting and yet improvements of d20system evolution and years of international playtesting I anticipate great response!

And I can't wait to see what's coming.

[PaladinCA]

I'm already sold on it, and I didn't think that would be possible. So I am not obsessively refreshing here. :D

[Zehnseiter]

Than you should be happy now.
The next preview is up.

[loconius]

oh crap, i'm so there... what is the release date for the new edition... i'm super stoked to see it in my collection... and would possibly solve my Sci-fi space fighter pilot campaign dilemma [which is: what system and setting should i use?!]

can anyone post the actual article here, my "work" big brothers are keeping me from reading it there ;-)

[Skywalker]

Woot! Today we get:

Jedi Counselling 102:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20070502jc102

Preview 5:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview5

AE Preview 4:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/AEPreview4

[Skywalker]

oh crap, i'm so there... what is the release date for the new edition... i'm super stoked to see it in my collection... and would possibly solve my Sci-fi space fighter pilot campaign dilemma [which is: what system and setting should i use?!]

May 22.

Observations from the previews:

- criticals are simplifed to natural 20s,

- you may only train in class skills,

- you may gain new trained skill with a Skill Training feat,

- you do not gain new trained skills from multiclassing,

- nobles now get the most trained skills.

[The Fallen]

It's up, and so are Jedi Council 102 (with more Saga stuff) and Alliance and Empire prev 4, with two fully operational battle..., er, fully stated characters (and one is Tarkin, no less!) There's a lot to comment so I going to leave that to the experts (paging Drs. Hal, and Grubman ;) )

Edit:Damm', scooped.

[Jorjowsky]

can anyone post the actual article here, my "work" big brothers are keeping me from reading it there ;-)
Let's see:

Aiding Another

The basics of the Aid Another action remain the same in the new version of the rules. Characters still make checks against a DC of 10 to provide a +2 bonus on another character's action. However, two changes to the Aid Another rules encourage cooperation in combat.

1. Characters can now use Aid Another to grant a +2 bonus to an ally's attack roll against a target as long as they both have line of sight to the target. The target no longer needs to be engaged in melee combat with the ally.

2. Instead of using Aid Another to grant a bonus to an individual ally's Defense scores, you can use it to lay down suppressing fire against an opponent. As a result, the target takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls for 1 round.

These changes make the Aid Another action easier to use in combat, and they provide more legitimate options for characters that have difficulty damaging a target.

Aiming

Saga Edition includes the ability to aim. When aiming with a ranged weapon, you can take two consecutive swift actions in a round to line up the shot carefully. On your next attack, you ignore all cover bonuses to your target's Reflex Defense, provided that you don't lose line of sight to your target or take any other actions before making your attack. Furthermore, you can enhance your attacks with the Careful Shot feat and the Deadeye feat, which provide benefits such as increased attack bonuses and extra damage.

Critical Hits

To speed up game play further, we simplified the way that critical hits work. In Saga Edition, a natural 20 is an automatic critical hit that deals double damage. All weapons default to this method of scoring a critical hit, though some talents and feats can augment critical hits in different ways. This change streamlines combat and encourages players to enjoy the rush of a natural 20. Rather than being deflated by a poor roll to confirm a critical hit, players can enjoy their natural 20 as an automatic success -- and a big one at that.

Of course, the change also means that low-level enemies, such as stormtroopers and battle droids, can hit a character pretty hard, making a critical hit a true critical hit regardless of the attacker's level.

Order the Retreat and Keep Moving!

Under the old rules, if a character in melee combat wanted to move away from an opponent, he had to spend his entire action disengaging and moving to safety. In Saga Edition, the disengage action has been replaced by the withdraw action, which uses slightly different mechanics.

Withdrawing is a move action that lets you move up to half your movement speed. Your first square of movement no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. However, you can withdraw only if you are moving into a square that is not threatened; otherwise, you must take a normal move action.

This change reflects the mobile and fluid nature of Star Wars combat. Characters should no longer feel as if they must choose between withdrawing and attacking, because now they can do both.

In addition, we changed some feats slightly to make mobile combat more appealing. For example, consider the Running Attack feat:

Running Attack

You can move as you attack.

Prerequisite: Dexterity 13.

Benefit: When making an attack with a melee or ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

Multiple feats (Shot on the Run and Spring Attack) have been condensed into a single feat that has fewer prerequisites. This change encourages a style of combat often seen in the Star Wars films, in which mobile heroes dash in, attack, and keep moving.

Likewise, a character can now dash between two large objects that can be used for cover, fire her weapon between them, and retain her cover bonus to Reflex Defense. This should encourage heroes to be more mobile and take greater advantage of cover than ever before.

All-New Autofire

In previous editions of the Star Wars Roleplaying Game, the autofire rules slowed down combat because they involved making extra rolls and referencing a massive table. In Saga Edition, we simplified the autofire rules, making them more like those seen in other d20 System games.

A character with an autofire-capable weapon can switch to autofire mode by taking a swift action. Then she targets a 2-square-by-2-square area within the weapon's range and makes an attack roll with that weapon at a –5 penalty. Compare the result of the roll to the Reflex Defense of any targets within the area. Any creatures hit take full damage from the attack, while creatures missed take half damage. Autofire requires a standard action and consumes 10 shots, whether that represents charges from a power pack or slugs from a slugthrower.

Some special abilities reduce the penalties on autofire attacks, while others provide new uses for the autofire rules. For example, the Burst Fire feat allows you to use a weapon set on autofire against a single target at the normal –5 penalty. If you hit the target, you deal an extra 2 dice of damage. Since the attack isn't an area attack, it doesn't deal half damage on a miss, and the damage can't be reduced with the scout's Evasion talent.

Stun and Ion Damage

Stun damage and ion damage both received overhauls so they'd work better with the new damage threshold and condition track rules.

If a living target is hit by a stun attack, compare the stun damage (which is now the same as the weapon's normal damage) to the target's damage threshold. If the stun damage exceeds the damage threshold, the target moves 2 steps down the condition track; otherwise, the attack has no additional effect. Half of the stun damage is then subtracted from the target's hit points. To use a stun weapon, a character must be within 6 squares of her target (except when she's using stun grenades, which create a radius effect).

Ion weapons work much the same way, except they affect only droids, vehicles, objects, and characters with cybernetic enhancements. In addition, ion weapons can be fired at normal ranges and are not subject to the same 6-square limitation as stun weapons.

Reserve Shield Rules

We revised the shield rules to make them more consistent with what we see in the Star Wars movies (and to enhance the starship combat rules, which will be covered in an upcoming preview). Instead of having shield points, which work like reserve hit points, all shielded objects now have a shield rating (SR) that acts like damage reduction against incoming attacks. For example, a droideka has SR 20, which means that its shields absorb 20 points of damage much in the same way that DR absorbs damage. However, unlike damage reduction, when an attack exceeds the target's shield rating, its SR is reduced by 5. Starships and droids with shields can take actions to recharge their shields to their normal maximum.

The new rules mean that a single lucky shot will no longer eliminate a target's shields. Instead, knocking out shields will require several hits, or even a constant bombardment by multiple attackers.

High-Level Combat

Taken together, the changes described above -- plus other changes not covered in this preview -- make combat faster and more like the action of the Star Wars movies. As an added benefit, combat runs much faster at higher level, too. Since most characters have only one attack per round, most rounds consist of no more than three actions. A 20th-level character's turn lasts just about as long as a 1st-level character's turn (accounting for a greater number of options at higher levels, of course). Moreover, enemies using the nonheroic class continue to act as cannon fodder even at high levels, letting heroes face threats that can be taken down in one or two hits even as they come face to face with 20th-level Sith Lords.

More to Come

In the next preview of Saga Edition -- droids, droids, droids!

[Wizdoc]

*refresh*

Damn!

*refresh*

Damn!

*refresh*

AWESOME!

[loconius]

i just messed myself!!! that sounds great, terrific additions to the starwars system... i hope the starship rules are good, i want to use this for my fighter pilot campaign!

[The Fallen]

The new Noble looks promising. And Running Attack is cool.

[Wizdoc]

The Autofire rules have raised a minor shitstorm at the Wizards boards, but I like them. Fast and simple and they seem to emulate the films well.

[grubman]

i just messed myself!!! that sounds great, terrific additions to the starwars system... i hope the starship rules are good, i want to use this for my fighter pilot campaign!

I'm curious about the starship rules too. It's obvious WotC learned that the simplified rules of the SWCMG worked awsome, and have made a lot of changes to the Saga rules based on them...however, the Starchip CMG was pretty weak, so I hope they added some coolness to those rules.

[Wizdoc]

I'm curious about the starship rules too. It's obvious WotC learned that the simplified rules of the SWCMG worked awsome, and have made a lot of changes to the Saga rules based on them...however, the Starchip CMG was pretty weak, so I hope they added some coolness to those rules.

Judging from the speeder stats and these new shield rules, it looks like it's pretty much like character combat.

[grubman]

Judging from the speeder stats and these new shield rules, it looks like it's pretty much like character combat.


Which wouldn't be a bad thing. That approach works pretty well in Savage Worlds, and keeps you from having to learn a whole new subset of rules...as long as it captures enough of the feel of a (Star Wars) space combat.

[Wizdoc]

Which wouldn't be a bad thing. That approach works pretty well in Savage Worlds, and keeps you from having to learn a whole new subset of rules...as long as it captures enough of the feel of a (Star Wars) space combat.

Yeah, I hope so too.

By the way, I don't have anything except my gut to back this up, but I have a feeling that - like characters - some ships will have Talents attached to them that allow to pull off more interesting, off-the-norm stuff with the craft. And in the upcoming starship book, where there are the building rules, there will be Talent Trees for ships.

[grubman]

The Autofire rules have raised a minor shitstorm at the Wizards boards, but I like them. Fast and simple and they seem to emulate the films well.

EVERYTHING raises a minor shitstorm over on the Wizards boards. I try to hang there every now and then, but really, it's a bad forum. The Wizards forums seem to attract a certain type of person that I just can't seem to get along with for some reason.

[Edit] In all honesty, I think the people at the Wizards Board (and members of the RPGA) are some of the worse influences on the WotC lines. I'm not sure why Wizards seems to put so much stock into their opinions. Overall I think they represent a very small portion of fans of the games.

[BlackSheep]

Hmm.

WWEKYR rate of feats and talents, so you get something every level. Cool, but it's a lot of stuff to handle, so high-level characters might still be a bit of a pain to stat up. If the talent trees are longer it might help.

Not sure I entirely like the idea that, to be trained in a skill, one of your classes must have it as a class skill.

Also, what class features other than skill picks do you only get at first level? Do you still get the starting feats?

[Skywalker]

WWEKYR rate of feats and talents, so you get something every level. Cool, but it's a lot of stuff to handle, so high-level characters might still be a bit of a pain to stat up. If the talent trees are longer it might help.

I think the advantage is that Talents, Feats and Skills are all discrete picks. You don't get a pool of points to distribute but you choose X Skills and Y Feats.

Also, what class features other than skill picks do you only get at first level? Do you still get the starting feats?

At first level you get 1 feat and 1 talent. You get +1 feat if you are human.

[Rezolution]

The Autofire rules have raised a minor shitstorm at the Wizards boards, but I like them. Fast and simple and they seem to emulate the films well.

They look very similar to the autofire rules in D20 Modern, which is a plus in my book.

[Dr. Halflight]

Hmm.

WWEKYR rate of feats and talents, so you get something every level. Cool, but it's a lot of stuff to handle, so high-level characters might still be a bit of a pain to stat up. If the talent trees are longer it might help.

Not sure I entirely like the idea that, to be trained in a skill, one of your classes must have it as a class skill.

Also, what class features other than skill picks do you only get at first level? Do you still get the starting feats?

At this point I share your dislike. Its the only thing I'm uncertain of about the new system, however, a houserule I've been contemplating is that Skill Training will let you be Trained(+5) in any Skill, but you can only take Skill Focus(additional +5) on your class(es) Skills.

So the max you can get on a "Cross-Class" skill is +15.

BUT, its not awful & I love everythigng else I've seen. Its also simple.

[Juriel]

On trained skills, I would have liked to see it like Conan d20 - you could use the extra skill picks you gain from Intelligence on ANY skill, not just class skills. Seems like a better idea.

Aid Another still needing a separate roll to work seems like too much hassle to me, if they're otherwise trying to streamline things.

Autofire acting as an automatic small-scale AoE (you always take at least half damage, unless you have Evasion), I don't think I like. I mean, that's an easy way to cut down a group of players, just have five stormtroopers each open autofire on them, even if one PC at a time. Automatic damage is automatic damage, to everyone but Scoundrels...

And, because they say autofire consumes 10 shots, does this mean you need to keep track of your AMMO? Book-keeping and ammo-counting, that's definitely what I remember the SW characters doing in gunfights.

Not really seeing the innovation in this preview...

[Mokuren]

Autofire acting as an automatic small-scale AoE (you always take at least half damage, unless you have Evasion), I don't think I like. I mean, that's an easy way to cut down a group of players, just have five stormtroopers each open autofire on them, even if one PC at a time. Automatic damage is automatic damage, to everyone but Scoundrels...

It only applies if you fight in featureless open fields, I'm pretty sure there is a rule somewhere that says hard cover gives you Evasion (at least in D&D, but it'd be stupid if it wasn't the same here).

And if you want to dive running and shooting and screaming while they open autofire on you... You either don't have to do it too often or get Evasion somehow. It otherwise seems cool to me.

And, because they say autofire consumes 10 shots, does this mean you need to keep track of your AMMO? Book-keeping and ammo-counting, that's definitely what I remember the SW characters doing in gunfights.

I don't mind this kind of bookkeeping, but maybe other people do.

Maybe you could houserule that you don't need to keep track of ammo, but just autofire rounds. That is, you can keep shooting indefinitely unless you autofire, which you can do X times before having to reload (X depends on the weapon).



Oh, and I'm so sold on this.

[BlackSheep]

I think the advantage is that Talents, Feats and Skills are all discrete picks. You don't get a pool of points to distribute but you choose X Skills and Y Feats.
Oh, it's certainly easier, but let's say you're statting up a twelth level single-class human character. That's six feats, six bonus feats, six talents, plus skills and equipment...still quite a bit of stuff.

At first level you get 1 feat and 1 talent. You get +1 feat if you are human.
I meant first class level, not first character level.

What advantage does a Soldier 1 / Noble 1 have over a Noble 1 / Soldier 1, to make up for the lost skill picks? Is it just the maxed-out hit dice? Does the Noble moving into Soldier still gain the Soldier's starting feats and proficiences?

[Juriel]

What advantage does a Soldier 1 / Noble 1 have over a Noble 1 / Soldier 1, to make up for the lost skill picks?
Oh yeah, this is a very good question. I hate the class-picking order having such a huge effect on you.

And, well, rolled hitpoints that arbitrarily punish some people while rewarding others. You don't roll 1d4-2 to see how many feats you get this level, either, so that's an eyesore. But I digress...

[BlackSheep]

Oh yeah, this is a very good question. I hate the class-picking order having such a huge effect on you.

i wouldn't mind it having an effect too much, so long as there are pros and cons to both choices. What I don't want is for one to be flat-out superior to the other.

And, well, rolled hitpoints that arbitrarily punish some people while rewarding others. You don't roll 1d4-2 to see how many feats you get this level, either, so that's an eyesore. But I digress...

Oh, I drop all randomness from d20 chargen as a matter of course.

[Wizdoc]

I believe the ammunition thing is for those who want to run a more military-themed Star Wars game in the vein of Republic Commando. I doubt dropping the ammo counting altogether if you want a "regular" Star Wars game will be any sort of game-balance altering change.

[Mokuren]

i wouldn't mind it having an effect too much, so long as there are pros and cons to both choices. What I don't want is for one to be flat-out superior to the other.

I'll add my voice to those that hate seeing how in D&D going first level rogue earns you more skill points you can handle at relatively little cost (unless you want to go full caster).

I would hate to see it replicated here, I'd be much more satisfied to make everyone have a baseline of competency, like... Everyone gets 2 skill picks in whatever skill he wants and then the class thing kicks in.

It's not going to solve the front-loading problem, but it's better than nothing.

[Achilles]

i


Oh, I drop all randomness from d20 chargen as a matter of course.

Same here, we always play 1st level gets full allocation, subsequent levels get the average gain.

[Ineti]

And, well, rolled hitpoints that arbitrarily punish some people while rewarding others.

I give my players a choice. Either roll for HP/VP and live with the roll, or take half the hit dice + Con. So d4=2, d6=3, d8=4, d10=5. Simple. I tend to go with the half measure because my dice hate me sometimes.

[Jim DelRosso]

What advantage does a Soldier 1 / Noble 1 have over a Noble 1 / Soldier 1, to make up for the lost skill picks? Is it just the maxed-out hit dice? Does the Noble moving into Soldier still gain the Soldier's starting feats and proficiences?

A list of class skills that's not focused on social skills, maybe? With the way skill training works now, that could make a decent difference. Added to the 12 extra HP, it might even balance out; I'm not 100% convinced, but I'm very interested in seeing the class skill lists for the various classes.

[BlackSheep]

A list of class skills that's not focused on social skills, maybe? With the way skill training works now, that could make a decent difference.
I doubt that two combat skills are supposed to equal six non-combat skills. Besides, that just makes the Scout the first-level class of choice, with five-plus-Int skill picks (IIRC) from a list including Pilot, Perception and Initiative. Plus a bonus feat if you take Endurance.

EDIT: Scouts are not Scoundrels.

[Alnag]

I have an impression, that scoundrel has 4+Int trained skills.

[Juriel]

Same here, we always play 1st level gets full allocation, subsequent levels get the average gain.
That is how I also like it.

[Skull Leader]

WotC posted the latest update for the Saga Edition rules, covering simplified critical hits, autofire, aiding, stun and ion damage, withdrawing from combat, and more. Enjoy!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview5

[Ineti]

Scooped twice, actually. The d20 forum has this going on.

[Jim DelRosso]

I doubt that two combat skills are supposed to equal six non-combat skills. Besides, that just makes the Scoundrel the first-level class of choice, with five-plus-Int skill picks (IIRC) from a list including Pilot, Perception and Initiative. Plus a bonus feat if you take Endurance.

I believe the Soldier actually gets 3+Int skills. Now, will the soldier's class skills give enough bang-for-their-buck that they'll make folks consider taking it as their first class? I don't know, because I haven't seen the list yet.

Did you mean Scoundrel, above, or Scout? Either way, we can't really compare one class to another when we've only seen one of them completely, and small chunks of the others. I will say that the changes in the skill system do a lot to relieve my concern about the "take rogue first" problem D&D has. No quadruple ranks at 1st level, no cross-class skills, 1/2 level + ability for untrained skills... these are big changes that have the potential to ameliorate or eliminate that imbalance. But, I'm not going to make that call until I've seen all five classes.

[BlackSheep]

I have an impression, that scoundrel has 4+Int trained skills.
I meant Scout, actually. Typo.

[Skull Leader]

lol - I just saw that right after I posted this. How do I request to have this thread closed?

[Gene Freak]

lol - I just saw that right after I posted this. How do I request to have this thread closed?

In Trouble Tickets, I believe. But I wouldn't be surprised if somebody sees the title of this thread and comes in to lock it / move it anyway.

[BlackSheep]

I believe the Soldier actually gets 3+Int skills.
Yeah, think I got confused by the Jedi/Soldier they posted a while back. Looks like it's:

Jedi 2
Soldier 3
Scoundrel 4
Scout 5
Noble 6

Might be that as skill picks go up, hit dice go down. With the exception of the Jedi, who do have an überskill. Anyone know the hit dice?

I agree we need to see other skill lists before judging, but at the moment the Scout list is looking pretty good. Climb, Endurance, Initiative, Jump, Knowledges, Mechanics, Perception, Pilot, Ride, Stealth, Survival, Swim. Tech skills, mobility skills, sneaky skills, fighty skills, and enough picks to fill two of those niches easily.

Did you mean Scoundrel, above, or Scout?
Scout.

[NPC Brown Cow]

Thanks, I refuse to visit the d20 section.

[Piestrio]

Thanks, I refuse to visit the d20 section.


Shine on you crazy diamond...

[Wizdoc]

"I will make it legal!"