Releasing racial books/other stuff before the setting?

[Charles Gray]

I noticed that NeoExodus had been releasing smaller books before their main setting-- is there a reason for this? Does it help build up interest in the main product?

[LMPjr007]

YES!!! It got interest in the setting WAY before we released it. People got to see what was different about this settig by the races in it. Best of all it created a source of income while we were still developing and playing people for work on NeoExodus.

[HellHound]

It works for games that use pre-existing systems. It would really only be an advisable system for popular systems such as the d20 system.

[DJorgensen]

I noticed that NeoExodus had been releasing smaller books before their main setting-- is there a reason for this? Does it help build up interest in the main product?

More to do with the publisher's adherence to the small product/numerous release philosophy he relies on.

While LPJ and many others rely on this pattern, the result is more often than not, the publisher fails to release enough material to result in a sufficiently developed setting.

[LMPjr007]

More to do with the publisher's adherence to the small product/numerous release philosophy he relies on.

While LPJ and many others rely on this pattern, the result is more often than not, the publisher fails to release enough material to result in a sufficiently developed setting.
Actually no. In the develpment of NeoExodus I decided to use something that helped Napster make the music industry more money, by making "small bites" of the major project so people can "sample it" with out investing a lot of money in it.

You have to also remember, we have TWO version of the NeoExodus setting available, a Free version and a For Sale version. The free version breaks down any barrier that a customer might have about trying out this product. I mean who can not afford free? So if they liked what we gave them for free, the they migh buy a race or class, and if they like those they might buy more. Everything expands from that basic idea. You make MORE money on several products when you give one of them away for free.

[DJorgensen]

Actually no. In the develpment of NeoExodus I decided to use something that helped Napster make the music industry more money, by making "small bites" of the major project so people can "sample it" with out investing a lot of money in it.

And taking in the types of products release, the order they were released, and the dates they were released, the pattern of release for NeoExodus isn't any different from your attempts at the various Haven/Sanctuary campaigns.

What my point is is that using such a model tends to be a trap in that many publishers inevitably end up distracted, starting other superprojects and leaving older ones to languish, all due to the simple thought of "no reason to sit on this, I can just squeeze it between product X and product Y of project Z..."

Even you have to admit you're guilty of this, Louis. How long have people been waiting for the long ago promised map of Haven CoV that was supposed to be released for the d20 version? It's been about a year, hasn't it? Yet you've blazed ahead with City of Bronze, City of Secrets, Full Metal Zero, and Neoexodus.

I'm not saying the method won't work. I'm saying it runs the risk of the full setting never really being published.

[LMPjr007]

Even you have to admit you're guilty of this, Louis. How long have people been waiting for the long ago promised map of Haven CoV that was supposed to be released for the d20 version? It's been about a year, hasn't it? Yet you've blazed ahead with City of Bronze, City of Secrets, Full Metal Zero, and Neoexodus.
Well I sent out a map to Haven about a year and a half ago. I am sorry you did not get one. Here is a link where you can get it right from my website if you like: http://www.lpjdesign.com/PDF/MapofHaven.pdf. If you really wanted it you could have e-mailed me directly and I would have sent it to you.

[DJorgensen]

That's the same map that was in the original version of haven, but with color. I was hoping this time around you'd at least produce something more detailed, something along the lines of the maps of the original Haven that was done by Game Lords Ltd, or one of the old Judges' Guild City State maps, or RTG's Night City, or even something like the maps for the Forgotten Realms cities or one of the old Thieves' World Sanctuary maps, at least.

Wasn't that map supposed to be content in a second Haven:CoV sourcebook?

[LMPjr007]

That's the same map that was in the original version of haven, but with color. I was hoping this time around you'd at least produce something more detailed, something along the lines of the maps of the original Haven that was done by Game Lords Ltd, or one of the old Judges' Guild City State maps, or RTG's Night City, or even something like the maps for the Forgotten Realms cities or one of the old Thieves' World Sanctuary maps, at least.

Wasn't that map supposed to be content in a second Haven:CoV sourcebook?

What original map made by Game Lords Ltd? This is the only map we have done for Haven, ever.

[cjh]

What original map made by Game Lords Ltd? This is the only map we have done for Haven, ever.

He's making a comparison to maps from other products. Game Lords had a setting called "The Free City of Haven" many moons ago.

[DJorgensen]

He's making a comparison to maps from other products. Game Lords had a setting called "The Free City of Haven" many moons ago.

Indeed, this was the "original" Haven I was referring to, and the maps to it were most righteous, right down to including the centaur-based mass transit routes. :D

[HellHound]

That's the same map that was in the original version of haven, but with color. I was hoping this time around you'd at least produce something more detailed, something along the lines of the maps of the original Haven that was done by Game Lords Ltd, or one of the old Judges' Guild City State maps, or RTG's Night City, or even something like the maps for the Forgotten Realms cities or one of the old Thieves' World Sanctuary maps, at least.

In other words, although you did actually release the map as you said you would (and as he was sure you did not), he now feels that he has to belittle it as being an inferior product.

[DJorgensen]

In other words, although you did actually release the map as you said you would (and as he was sure you did not), he now feels that he has to belittle it as being an inferior product.

And maybe you should try not putting words into the mouths of others?

He released the map, yes, however not in the format he initially stated. It was supposed to be part of a second sourcebook.

And have you looked at the map he released? I wouldn't say I'm belittling it at all. All I did was express displeasure that the map is the exact same one published years earlier in the non-d20 version of Haven and stated my preference for something more detailed rather than a simple recoloring.

[LMPjr007]

And maybe you should try not putting words into the mouths of others?

He released the map, yes, however not in the format he initially stated. It was supposed to be part of a second sourcebook.

And have you looked at the map he released? I wouldn't say I'm belittling it at all. All I did was express displeasure that the map is the exact same one published years earlier in the non-d20 version of Haven and stated my preference for something more detailed rather than a simple recoloring.
Dana I have to wonder what your real issue is. If you don't like the map, well that is a personal issue you will have to deal with. Personally I don't think the map of Haven would prevent you from playing the game. Let not kid anyone here, it is only a map of a city, not the rules to the game.

So the question I have to wonder is, "Who do your comments profit?" Well not the topic of the question that was asked. And that is what is important. Personally, I think you bring up things like this to draw interest to yourself and your company. The guy asked on why I did a specific marketing technique that has helped me gain sales and market share. But then you answered like you know why I do this marketing technique. But you don't.

So one again, "Who do your comments profit?" That is the question that keep going around when dealing with you.

[cjh]

Dana I have to wonder what your real issue is.

Out of curiosity, where is the setting in question? If you promise a setting book and only a map materializes that does seem like a good marketing technique after all. At least it doesn't seem that way to me.

This stuff about a map just seems like a misdirection away from the actual issue.

[LMPjr007]

Out of curiosity, where is the setting in question? If you promise a setting book and only a map materializes that does seem like a good marketing technique after all. At least it doesn't seem that way to me.

This stuff about a map just seems like a misdirection away from the actual issue.
Sure here is the setting for NeoExodus:

The Free Verison: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21591&

The "For Pay - $12.50" Version: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21605&

PLUS

For Haven: City of Violence D20 Modern: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=11695&

[cjh]

Sure here is the setting for NeoExodus:

The Free Verison: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21591&

The "For Pay - $12.50" Version: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21605&

PLUS

For Haven: City of Violence D20 Modern: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=11695&

That wasn't what was being asked. :D What about City of Bronze? City of Secrets? The WWII version? Full Metal Zero? Sure, you managed to get NeoExodus out but what about all those other non-starters? Was it a matter of them just not selling enough to support further work, or was it a matter of the "nugget" supplement train obscuring the forest for the trees?

[LMPjr007]

That wasn't what was being asked. :D What about City of Bronze? City of Secrets? The WWII version? Full Metal Zero? Sure, you managed to get NeoExodus out but what about all those other non-starters? Was it a matter of them just not selling enough to support further work, or was it a matter of the "nugget" supplement train obscuring the forest for the trees?

Well if you wanted City of Bronze: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=15179&. Plus there are 20+ products for it.

Victory: War of Bronze which ties in to Haven: City of Bronze: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21089&. Plus there 3 product for it

Full Metal Zero which ties into Haven: COV: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=308&filter_id=1830&. Plus there are 20+ products for it

I am sorry that is ONLY 50 Products for three different product lines. So please tell me what qualifies as a "Non-starter" amount?

[cjh]

Well if you wanted City of Bronze: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=15179&. Plus there are 20+ products for it.

Victory: War of Bronze which ties in to Haven: City of Bronze: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21089&. Plus there 3 product for it

Full Metal Zero which ties into Haven: COV: http://lpjdesign.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=308&filter_id=1830&. Plus there are 20+ products for it

I am sorry that is ONLY 50 Products for three different product lines. So please tell me what qualifies as a "Non-starter" amount?

Louis, let me make the word large enough for your to be able to read it: Setting. For each of those lines you said that each of your "nugget" releases would lead to a full-scale setting book. That's really, I think, the crux of this thread. Do these smaller releases that build up to a setting actually work....or are they non-starters? It seems that you've only had that happen with one of your releases -- NeoExodus. The others have all just been a supplement train.

So, does this model actually work and lead to a developed setting, or is it just another example of the supplement train?

[LMPjr007]

So, does this model actually work and lead to a developed setting, or is it just another example of the supplement train?

Well to be blunt, what do you define as a Enough to define a "setting"? If a setting is 25 page long and gives you the set up of the world, then what else do you really need. Does a setting book need to be 300 pages long of fluff? No I don't think it has to be.

If you are afraid to spend money on the setting, then try the free downloads I give you to see the setting. If you don't like the free setting downloads, well it didn't cost you any money to see if you liked it. How many companies do yo know that do that? Has this work for me, I think yes, if I have done it several times over different product lines. Do people seem to like it, I guess so they keep purchasing the product lines. Does that answer your question?

[DJorgensen]

Dana I have to wonder what your real issue is. If you don't like the map, well that is a personal issue you will have to deal with. Personally I don't think the map of Haven would prevent you from playing the game. Let not kid anyone here, it is only a map of a city, not the rules to the game.

So the question I have to wonder is, "Who do your comments profit?" Well not the topic of the question that was asked. And that is what is important. Personally, I think you bring up things like this to draw interest to yourself and your company. The guy asked on why I did a specific marketing technique that has helped me gain sales and market share. But then you answered like you know why I do this marketing technique. But you don't.

So one again, "Who do your comments profit?" That is the question that keep going around when dealing with you.

Actually, it evolved out of your refusal to acknowledge the inherent risk of the release model you're attempting to champion. It has been pointed out that you have multiple failures to properly follow through prior to you finally (and questionably) succeeding to complete the model with NeoExodus. I'm simply sprinkling the necessary grains of salt on the grounds of your overly optimistic view.

The phrase "blind eye of success" applies here. While you have many lines that are successful solely on the grounds that they generate revenue, many of those lines have failed to reach goals you have publicly stated, whether the goal was to publish a complete setting or to establish competition with someone else's product line (Thrilling Tales eventually churned out a complete setting, thus relegating City of Bronze to being little more than a range of minor supplementary material, rather than a credible competitor, which is saying a lot considering my boundless dislike of GMS).

I'm amused at your attempt to claim the statements were made to profit my business. However, that's a pretty poor assumption on your part, considering I have not once mentioned a product of mine in this thread. How can it be a benefit to me without making a sales pitch of a competing product of my own? As for who my comments really profit, it is Charles Gray, the original poster of the thread. He now knows that yes, such a publishing model can work, but it has problem he needs to be wary of.

[DJorgensen]

Well to be blunt, what do you define as a Enough to define a "setting"? If a setting is 25 page long and gives you the set up of the world, then what else do you really need. Does a setting book need to be 300 pages long of fluff? No I don't think it has to be.

If you are afraid to spend money on the setting, then try the free downloads I give you to see the setting. If you don't like the free setting downloads, well it didn't cost you any money to see if you liked it. How many companies do yo know that do that? Has this work for me, I think yes, if I have done it several times over different product lines. Do people seem to like it, I guess so they keep purchasing the product lines. Does that answer your question?

A setting needs to define a setting. 20 character classes don't do that (see City of Bronze, City of Secrets, and Full Metal Zero lines for dozens of examples). Nor does a pile of rehashed stat products from another product line (CoB "X" of Destruction products). Nor do numerous topical rules accessories (FM0's Use as Misdirected). And please don't go saying Haven: CoV is the setting for all of them, because CoV doesn't give a single clue on being used as the base setting for all those alternatives, nor is it suitable for all those alternatives to begin with.

Also, this isn't about money. It's about whether or not publishing "nuggets" prior to a setting works.

Finally, can you honestly say that the model works because of the setting presented by the product line, or are the customers simply buying minor supplements suitable for other settings they may be using?

[cjh]

Well to be blunt, what do you define as a Enough to define a "setting"?

To be equally blunt I think it is important to follow through with promised product. If a setting book is promised, then it should be delivered.

If a setting is 25 page long and gives you the set up of the world, then what else do you really need. Does a setting book need to be 300 pages long of fluff? No I don't think it has to be.

To be blunt once again: How can you say that you are outlining an entire world, or even a city in only 25 pages? Coupled with your example map (which doesn't actually contain any setting information except for a couple of highways) I don't see how you are publishing enough information to be actually useful. If that is the level of detail that you are championing, then no, I don't see how it would be useful in a game.

[LMPjr007]

Finally, can you honestly say that the model works because of the setting presented by the product line, or are the customers simply buying minor supplements suitable for other settings they may be using?
All I can honestly say is that people purchase my products and I make enough money to do more products. Does this process work for everyone, I don't know. But it works for my business and has for years and that is really all I care about.

[LMPjr007]

To be blunt once again: How can you say that you are outlining an entire world, or even a city in only 25 pages? Coupled with your example map (which doesn't actually contain any setting information except for a couple of highways) I don't see how you are publishing enough information to be actually useful. If that is the level of detail that you are championing, then no, I don't see how it would be useful in a game.
Wait I am just wondering, you stated above that you could not see how I am publishing enough info. But have you ACTUALLY read any of the PDFs you are commenting on, to see if they have enough information for a setting? If you have, then above statement makes no sense.

[cjh]

All I can honestly say is that people purchase my products and I make enough money to do more products. Does this process work for everyone, I don't know. But it works for my business and has for years and that is really all I care about.

You want to read up on some of the current financial stuff regarding Games Workshop. They used a similar model for a long time. Past (or present) success with a model doesn't insure future success. Particularly when D20 goes away.

[LMPjr007]

Also, this isn't about money. It's about whether or not publishing "nuggets" prior to a setting works.
Well then how would you define a success in this situation, if making a profit on a product is not you scale for success.

[LMPjr007]

You want to read up on some of the current financial stuff regarding Games Workshop. They used a similar model for a long time. Past (or present) success with a model doesn't insure future success. Particularly when D20 goes away.
You do know to the OGL and D20 will not be "going away", WOTC may stop publishing D20 material but it is not going away. It is Open Gaming Content anyone can use it forever if they like as long as they follow the license.

[cjh]

You do know to the OGL and D20 will not be "going away", WOTC may stop publishing D20 material but it is not going away. It is Open Gaming Content anyone can use it forever if they like as long as they follow the license.

The OGL isn't going anywhere, that is very true. The "d20," however? That most certainly will go away, or it will be replaced.

To think otherwise shows a rather naive business strategy.

[Jerry D. Grayson]

Can we get back to the topic at hand?

[Grumpy]

Yep, that would be cool.

So, Louis, I didn't take the time to look at your catalogue, but the best information for us would be :
have you published, or do you know someone who has published, a product somehow similar to NeoExodus in one big chunk ? Do sales tend to show that releasing small products before the big one gave the big one a boost ?
I understand from this... dynamic conversation, that you specialize, as most pdf-only publishers, in short products, but maybe you have some other publishers' numbers that allowed you to make some comparison.


PS : it's quite startling how many discussions on the publishing forums (I don't go much to the other ones) turn into brainless bashing. I'm sure those overly harsh attacks on other people's creations make other people than myself feel uneasy, and it would really be a great betterment if you could stop...

[madelf]

Thrilling Tales eventually churned out a complete setting
What? Where?
Are you talking about Mars? Because that's based on a very narrow sub-set of pulp, not remotely appropriate for use with much of the other Thrilling Tales material, and is not even listed in the Thrilling Tales line. So I don't see how you can claim that as a setting evolved from Thrilling Tales.

Now if there's a Thrilling Tales setting book out, or coming out, I'd be interested to hear about it.

[JDCorley]

I'm perfectly okay with a setting book never being published and me just assembling pieces from a product line, so long as each piece is usuable on its own and can easily be integrated with others. That's one great strength of OGL material. (It also makes it damn hard to playtest properly.) After all, that is what I would be doing anyway, no matter whether a setting book was published or not. Nobody can play all of the Forgotten Realms in a campaign, you need a location or two, some prestige classes, some magic, a bit of history, and then you're good to go. There's no difference to me in deciding what to use by ignoring chunks of a big thick setting book or picking up chunks from a lot of little jigsaw puzzle setting pieces.

LPJ products, in my view, hit that "independent usability" mark about 50-75 percent of the time, which accounts for my willingness to check out new things from the company even if I'm completely confident no setting book will ever be released.

[LMPjr007]

Yep, that would be cool.

So, Louis, I didn't take the time to look at your catalogue, but the best information for us would be :
have you published, or do you know someone who has published, a product somehow similar to NeoExodus in one big chunk?

The closest thing I can say to what I have seen with NeoExodus would be Adamant's Pulp Campaign Setting. The main reasoning for doing NeoExodus in this way was to "hedge my bets" if people did not find the setting appealing. I always planned to do the setting, but most people don't want to "test out" a $30 - $40 product to see if they like it. Plus with NeoExodus being so differently setting wise I had to get people behind the new concept of this setting. That is why I released the Race first. I knew if the races did well the setting would do well, which is what has happened.

Do sales tend to show that releasing small products before the big one gave the big one a boost ?
More like the small sales give you an ideas how man sale you will get for the core setting. It is normally a 2 to 1 ratio of supplements to setting.

I understand from this... dynamic conversation, that you specialize, as most pdf-only publishers, in short products, but maybe you have some other publishers' numbers that allowed you to make some comparison.
Since releasing the Races PDF we have sold over 150 of them and the Free World of NeoExodus has been downloaded over 150 times. So the sales of the Campaign Setting anf the Starter Kit are falling in place as I expected.

[LMPjr007]

LPJ products, in my view, hit that "independent usability" mark about 50-75 percent of the time, which accounts for my willingness to check out new things from the company even if I'm completely confident no setting book will ever be released.
My business concept is be a "plug-in" for the OGL material in what ever genre you might want to play in. I only do settings for things I want to do that I can't normally find in other D20 and OGL material.

[DJorgensen]

What? Where?
Are you talking about Mars? Because that's based on a very narrow sub-set of pulp, not remotely appropriate for use with much of the other Thrilling Tales material, and is not even listed in the Thrilling Tales line. So I don't see how you can claim that as a setting evolved from Thrilling Tales.

Now if there's a Thrilling Tales setting book out, or coming out, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Thrilling Tales: Omnibus Edition
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=7806&

[DJorgensen]

PS : it's quite startling how many discussions on the publishing forums (I don't go much to the other ones) turn into brainless bashing. I'm sure those overly harsh attacks on other people's creations make other people than myself feel uneasy, and it would really be a great betterment if you could stop...

Unfortunately, those posts are often what it takes to drag out the real answer. It was only after those posts that the conversation reached a point where Louis had to admit that he couldn't honestly say that the "nuggets before mother lode" publishing model actually works due to the supplementary nature the bulk of his products bear. Prior to being dragged into taking a harder look at things, he was positive that the "nuggets before mother lode" publishing model was a success.

[madelf]

Thrilling Tales: Omnibus Edition
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=7806&
Ah.
I thought that was just a compilation of the smaller pieces already released. I didn't realize there was additional setting content.

[Jerry D. Grayson]

I wonder if this method of product release would work in a traditional print market? I can see where it starts a bit of a buzz about a product (I know I was interested). I also see it as an interesting way of defining the game world by releasing parts that are easily digestible with very little monetary risk.

[LMPjr007]

I wonder if this method of product release would work in a traditional print market? I can see where it starts a bit of a buzz about a product (I know I was interested). I also see it as an interesting way of defining the game world by releasing parts that are easily digestible with very little monetary risk.
Well I will let you know when where release the retail version to stores in August.

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

I wonder if this method of product release would work in a traditional print market? I can see where it starts a bit of a buzz about a product (I know I was interested). I also see it as an interesting way of defining the game world by releasing parts that are easily digestible with very little monetary risk.Ask Privateer Press how well their Iron Kingdoms primer went. I imagine it's the closest you'll get to a print equivalent. I doubt you'll see a truly equal approach in the print market due to the incredible costing and logistic differences between offering individual races, classes, etc. in the print market at all, let alone as primers. Logically, the accessibility and price of the model in PDF makes it far more practical for the electronic market than print at such a scale of minutia.

[Grumpy]

Okay, so, a derivative question :

It has been said that publishing a setting by fragments is only possible for d20 because people can download the pieces and use them for their existing games even if they don't buy everything.

Now, say I'm working on a complete game (setting + system), and I would like to try this publishing model to have products coming out regularly, and money coming in while I'm working. What if I distribute the basic ruleset freely, and then pieces of the setting (Descriptions, Adventure seeds, NPCs, and "advanced" rules) until I have a complete game ? If the people can have the rules for free, would they buy the pieces of setting ? They would need the pieces to be playable, so what about an episode format, meaning, with a scenario in each product ? This last one would mean buying them in a certain order, which isn't really the point, but I'm really only throwing ideas your way, to see what you can make of this...

[LMPjr007]

Okay, so, a derivative question :

It has been said that publishing a setting by fragments is only possible for d20 because people can download the pieces and use them for their existing games even if they don't buy everything.
True.

Now, say I'm working on a complete game (setting + system), and I would like to try this publishing model to have products coming out regularly, and money coming in while I'm working.
OK this is how a lot of people do it.

What if I distribute the basic ruleset freely, and then pieces of the setting (Descriptions, Adventure seeds, NPCs, and "advanced" rules) until I have a complete game ?
This is "kind of" what we did with NeoExouds.

If the people can have the rules for free, would they buy the pieces of setting?
Well the question become what is more important the "fluff" (setting) or the "crunch" (Rules and Mechanics)? I think the fluff part can be created and though of by anyone. To me the fluff is just a basic idea or concept that has been expand out. There is no value to the fluff without the crunch to make it possible. Yojimbo, Fist Full of Dollars and Last Man Standing have all the same fluff. But how they are executed (the crunch) is completely different.

They would need the pieces to be playable, so what about an episode format, meaning, with a scenario in each product ? This last one would mean buying them in a certain order, which isn't really the point, but I'm really only throwing ideas your way, to see what you can make of this...
Well what happens is a person misses an "episode"? What if they are looking for one single thing and it is covered over 7 episodes. Are you going to force them to by 7 products just so they can get one thing? You want to build a game that make it easy as possible for the customer to get the product any way they want to. You are here to service the customer.

[Kid Twist]

[QUOTE=JDCorley;7278804]I'm perfectly okay with a setting book never being published and me just assembling pieces from a product line, so long as each piece is usuable on its own and can easily be integrated with others./QUOTE]

I'll second this. For me, I bought the Sword & Sorcery monster manual because, at the time, it was the only monster manual available (right at the release of D&D 3.0). However, the one that really stuck with me was Iron Kingdom's Monsternomicon. I was comparing it with the Monster Manual II that just came out, and the Monsternomicon was a far more interesting book because it detailed a world I wanted to play in. I probably would have bought that on the strength of its setting alone, but I wouldn't recommend relying on that--the Monsternomicon is regarded by some as one of the finest RPG books available. If I were you, it helps if your product has a game can plug it into, even if that game isn't exactly your own.

[JMKoontz]

What would you all think about putting out mini-products such as the race or class books that are dual-statted?

For example, i am currently working on a stand-alone game that makes use of OGC and the OGl without the d20 STL. However, it would be very possible to stat the races and classes using d20. Would it be a decent idea, do you think, to try publishing some race and/or class material that has full description of the race/class as covered by d20 in addition to the basic stat-block style write up as it would be covered by the stand-alone?

Current gamers could immediately take the product and plug them into their current d20 games and would see teaser info (since under the provissions of the d20 STL I could not discuss some of the details of my own system as they are expanded or altered definitions of core game terms) on the Stand-alone game to come.

I guess the question that I am trying to get to would be something along the lines of, do you think this idea would help entice current d20 players into looking at the new game or do you think that it would simply add minor bits of material to the already expansive d20 market without doing much for my own game to come?

Thanks,

[Charles Gray]

Well I think I'm gonna try the "small parts" model-- I've been thinking about it and given that I don't have a tremendous amount of experience, it lets me see what works and what doesn't without finding out the hard way that the 300 page "sure thing" was anything but.

[naturaltwenty]

The earliest release model of little pieces of the whole that I can remember would be the original Arduin. Small releases that when combined gave you a whole setting. Outside of that I can't remember a model like that.

Current print publishers seem to release a small primer like Ptolus or even the Savage Tide Player's Guide and the Pathfinder primer by Paizo. Not really nuggets but a cheap teaser to build interest.

Later