Is the Abjurant Champion as unbalanced as it looks?

[Pillsy]

Because right now, it seems like the benefits are relatively huge for the cost of one feat that a wizard or sorcerer isn't likely to take no matter what (specifically: martial weapon proficiency). You get a d10 hit die, full spellcasting progression, good BAB and a couple of handy special abilities[1]. In return, you give up familiar progression and (if you're a wizard) a single Bonus Feat.

That seems crazily good to me. Is there any reason for a 10th level sorcerer not to go for this class, provided they don't want another PrC instead?

[1] +9 AC from mage armor, +9 AC from shield which I can cast as a swift freaking action? Yes please!

[Crothian]

Mage armor isn't a an abjuration so it doesn't work like they think it does.

[Pillsy]

Mage armor isn't a an abjuration so it doesn't work like they think it does.
Oh. OK. That makes it a tiny bit more tolerable.

But still.

Also, why in heck isn't mage armor abjuration? D&D spell colleges make no sense whatsoever.

[Crothian]

Because it conjures armor. It's not that it doesn't make sense as Conjuration, it just makes sense as both.

[Gloombunny]

But the same applies to shield. Even if they both make sense in either school, why aren't they in the same one?

(Also, all the other spells that make something out of invisible but tangible force are evocation, not conjuration. Why is mage armor different?)

[Victim]

Conjuration is now the BS school that does everything. Of course, that still doesn't explain Mage Armor, since it was pretty much always conjuration. Before it was more like armor and less like a force field though.

It's not just the martial weapon, Combat casting is also pretty much a crap feat.

As a pure caster, it takes forever to get. While switching to Abjurant Champion is attractive, by that level even a sorcerer could be set up to enter other good casting classes.

But yeah, it does seem somewhat overpowered.

[Crothian]

Hey, I'm just happy Shield is no longer Evocation!! :D

[Silent Wayfarer]

Because right now, it seems like the benefits are relatively huge for the cost of one feat that a wizard or sorcerer isn't likely to take no matter what (specifically: martial weapon proficiency). You get a d10 hit die, full spellcasting progression, good BAB and a couple of handy special abilities[1]. In return, you give up familiar progression and (if you're a wizard) a single Bonus Feat.

That seems crazily good to me. Is there any reason for a 10th level sorcerer not to go for this class, provided they don't want another PrC instead?

[1] +9 AC from mage armor, +9 AC from shield which I can cast as a swift freaking action? Yes please!

The class itself is quite broken, in the useless sense. This is mainly because the two spells which are explicitly designed to be its bread and butter (shield and mage armor) do not work with the class features as given. Ironically enough, greater mage armor does work with it, as do the luminous armor and greater luminous armor spells.

Other than that, it's hardly a problem. So what if you get extra BAB and AC? At the levels where you can make full use of it, the AC bonus will probably be the least of your defenses anyway. Being desirable doesn't make a class broken.

[Pillsy]

This is mainly because the two spells which are explicitly designed to be its bread and butter (shield and mage armor) do not work with the class features as given. Er, why doesn't the feature work with shield?

[Silent Wayfarer]

Er, why doesn't the feature work with shield?

Oh yeah, Shield is Abjuration now. I kept thinking it was Evocation.

Anyway, I forgot to add that Abjurant Champion is definitely unbalanced in the sense that there's very little sacrifice needed to get it. But it's not overpowered, because all it does is make buffing with spells better. We've had that problem ever since the cleric came out. It's nothing like Initiate of the Seven Veils which makes you nigh invulnerable to almost any effect as an immediate action, or Planar Shepherd, which makes druids even more overpowered than they already are, or polymorph in all its incarnations. Including wild shape.

[Sangrolu]

I think it's a great class, on two counts:

1) It's a fighter/mage hybrid that sucks less than the Eldritch Knight (and can jazz up an EK build)
2) It's good for elves (who have a built in martial weapon proficiency), who are supposed to be great fighter/mages, but suck under 3.x.

The capstone ability is worthless for a "max out caster level" build (like most Fighter/Mage builds IME), but is nice for a rare "dabbler" build.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ironically enough, greater mage armor does work with it,

No it doesn't. Get with the programme :p :).

[Jon Chung]

Adapted to psionics, it combines very well with the Illithid Slayer.

[Sangrolu]

Adapted to psionics, it combines very well with the Illithid Slayer.

Now Illithid Slayer is a class that is bent or nearly so out of the box. The last thing I'd do is allow an add-on of another full-bab maniftesting class.

[Ace]

Adapted to psionics, it combines very well with the Illithid Slayer.

That seems way unbalanced --

It would be what Fig 2, Psion 4 Slayer 9 Psichamp 5 --

that would be 18 manifester levels and a BAB of 18 -- Ouch

I think AbChamp is a decent PRC - in fact I allow Mage Armor to work with it for a little boost. My only quibble is that it is a near must take for a battle sorcerer since it gives a few nice abilities and 1 BAB in exchange for a feat that you can use anyway (you get free MWP with the class)

[Mozart]

It's not broken for a number of reasons:

For a full caster it's a sub optimal PrC. Anyone looking to be a dedicated caster specialising in Abjuration is far better going with something like Initiate of the Seven Veils and topping it off with Arch Mage. The extra hit points and BAB look nice, but what is a full caster doing in a position where he can get hit and needs the BAB that much anyway? d10 vs d4 is an average of only 15 hit points extra by 15th level (assuming you enter the class at 11th level) which isn't enough to be a game breaker when compared with the abilities that you could have got in that time. Similarly the extra 2 points of BAB (+3 over those five leevls, but effectively only +2 1/2 rounded down over more levels) don't do much.

For a battle caster it's a useful class, but still doesn't do more than compensate for the disadvantages that such a character faces. As a 5 level class you still need to suppliment with Eldritch Knight over 20 levels so loose out on spell casting, the feats are not ideal and a combat caster is feat starved at the best of times. The class abilities are a useful way to cast in armour but a) use up spells, and b) can be dispelled. Over 20 levels as a combat caster you'll probably want to pick it up, but it doesn't make such a class that powerful.

For a primary fighter with a few levels of spellcasting (where this class is really pitched) it offers the ability to rapidly cast low level defensive spells in lieu of a shield and get the most out of spells/slots in a melee situation. It functions in this regard as a lesser Duskblade.

The temptation is to use Eldritch Knight as a basis for comparrison, and compared with Eldritch Knight it's rather tasty, but that speaks more to the poor esign of Eldritch Knight than the overpowered nature of Abjurant Champion. Newer Prestige Classes (and Base Classes) are better designed than old ones (see Ultimate Magus vs Mystic Theurge for dual caster fun). The AC fits nicely into a design niche gap for some character concepts and is below par for others. If it ran to a full 10 levels and provided extra hit points and BAB all that time then it would be a bigger threat, but as a limited class that must still be supported by either the obviously weak Eldritch Knight, or else will be used to suppliment the casting of full BAB/d10 hit point classes like the fighter it is perfectly reasonable

[Mr Adventurer]

I think AbChamp is a decent PRC - in fact I allow Mage Armor to work with it for a little boost.
Do you allow it to apply to Greater Mage Armour?
My only quibble is that it is a near must take for a battle sorcerer since it gives a few nice abilities and 1 BAB in exchange for a feat that you can use anyway (you get free MWP with the class)

Well, welcome to the world of the Battle Sorcerer. Seriously, they aren't very good.

[Mr Adventurer]

Also, I'd just add that I'm currently playing in a high-level game where I have a Fighter 8/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 3 who is really cool.

[Beri]

Well, what other classes offer full BAB/full spellcasting progression?

[Wookie]

Well, what other classes offer full BAB/full spellcasting progression?

The Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) is a notable example. D6 hit points, bardic knowledge, bardic music, two strong saves, full dual spellcasting progression, full bab progression for 10 levels, huge skill list and 6 + int mod skills per level.

[Beri]

The Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) is a notable example. D6 hit points, bardic knowledge, bardic music, two strong saves, full dual spellcasting progression, full bab progression for 10 levels, huge skill list and 6 + int mod skills per level.

Man, look at those entry requirements. At least 1 level in Bard, probably two to get level 1 spells. A level in Cleric, two levels in Rogue for Evasion, a level of Druid to speak Druidic, and you still can't get into the class until level 11 because of the Perform 13 ranks requirement. It sure looks appealing, but it's a mess, eh?

[Gloombunny]

Man, look at those entry requirements. At least 1 level in Bard, probably two to get level 1 spells. A level in Cleric, two levels in Rogue for Evasion, a level of Druid to speak Druidic, and you still can't get into the class until level 11 because of the Perform 13 ranks requirement. It sure looks appealing, but it's a mess, eh?
Wait... what's the level of cleric for? The druid level fulfills the divine casting requirement.

Not that needing levels in bard, druid, and rogue isn't painful enough.

[David Nash]

Man, look at those entry requirements. At least 1 level in Bard, probably two to get level 1 spells. A level in Cleric, two levels in Rogue for Evasion, a level of Druid to speak Druidic, and you still can't get into the class until level 11 because of the Perform 13 ranks requirement. It sure looks appealing, but it's a mess, eh?

You just need Druid 1, Bard 2 for the spell requirements, the language requirement, and the Bardic Knowledge requirement, Rogue 2 for Evasion, and the Perform 13 requirement just keeps you out 'til level 10, not 11.

Still entirely too messy for my tastes, but not THAT messy.

[Beri]

Wait... what's the level of cleric for? The druid level fulfills the divine casting requirement.

Not that needing levels in bard, druid, and rogue isn't painful enough.

My bad, didn't follow my math through. Still, yeah - that's spreading a character pretty thin.

[Elemental]

Conjuration is now the BS school that does everything.

I have a theory that the author of Complete Arcane had recently had a run of terrible spell resistance rolls for his wizard character. Hence the "gain +10 against SR as a swift action" spell and Conjuration spells that conjure energy that harms the opponent, bypassing SR (unlike evocation spells which, uh, evoke energy that harms the opponent).

[Ithaeur]

2) It's good for elves (who have a built in martial weapon proficiency), who are supposed to be great fighter/mages, but suck under 3.x.
Duskblade is better for that purpose, IMO. :)

[Gloombunny]

Duskblade is better for that purpose, IMO. :)
Well, it's useful for elves who want to primarily be wizards but have some modest fighting capability, whereas duskblade is sort of the other way around.

[Sangrolu]

Duskblade is better for that purpose, IMO. :)

Of course, Duskblade
a) is bland as cardboard. It's just a buff-fighter. Little in the way of utility spells or fun blast spells.
b) does nothing special to help elves*, as it's open to everyone. And it's still not a good enough choice for elves to make you want to play a gish** with a con penalty.

* - I actually wasn't allowing this class, but for the sake of simplicity, I was thinking about allowing some classes I traditionally nix with an added race limit. I would, naturally, limit this class to elves. But that's not RAW.
** - fighter/mage for the pawsplays in the audience.

[Joe_G_Kushner]

Anyone play the fighter-mage combo from Advanced... man, I'm blanking on the name but it was one of Green Ronin's Advanced books. Thane blade or something? Ugh. Bad brain.

[Sangrolu]

Anyone play the fighter-mage combo from Advanced... man, I'm blanking on the name but it was one of Green Ronin's Advanced books. Thane blade or something? Ugh. Bad brain.

Thanemage?

If experience is any indication, nobody is playing anything from a non-WotC book these days. Even the (IMO) cool stuff like Eldritch Weaver from the Advanced Player's Manual. :(

I did notice they snuck a thanemage into the pregen characters in the Green Ronin bleeding edge adventure Cult of the Death Goddess. I want to backtrack and see if they snuck any other of their classes into pregens.

[Joe_G_Kushner]

That's a damned shame. Lots of good third party stuff out there.

[Beri]

That's a damned shame. Lots of good third party stuff out there.

It's a consequence of the glut of d20 stuff that hit in the early years of the system. There's a lot of good stuff out there, but there's a lot of unbalanced ideas, too. It's easier for a GM to just limit the game to stuff from one company - where he knows that they know the system and do at least a little playtesting.

[Sangrolu]

It's a consequence of the glut of d20 stuff that hit in the early years of the system. There's a lot of good stuff out there, but there's a lot of unbalanced ideas, too. It's easier for a GM to just limit the game to stuff from one company - where he knows that they know the system and do at least a little playtesting.

I think it's just as much that more people own the WotC stuff than a given third party item, and most DMs want to own the book that the player wants to play, and that makes the matchup more rare.

(shrug) I'm just feeling lucky right now that my current GM is letting me get away with using Malhavoc stuff (to be exact, Hyperconscious) without owning it himself.

[mws]

It's a consequence of the glut of d20 stuff that hit in the early years of the system. There's a lot of good stuff out there, but there's a lot of unbalanced ideas, too. It's easier for a GM to just limit the game to stuff from one company - where he knows that they know the system and do at least a little playtesting.

At least the early d20 stuff was obviously unbalanced and easy to pick out. More modern supplements are much better designed, but still tend to introduce problems, even if unintentional. They are internally balanced and consistent, but can intersect with WOTC material in a way that gets out of control.

My problem is that two of my players are compulsive power gamers. I only keep them in check because I have a very good understanding of the Wizards material and can anticipate the problems that some class and feat combinations will bring. Throwing in third party classes and feats would be too much pain and suffering for me.

I find that's the biggest problem with D&D these days. There isn't much interest in the core classes anymore, so you open up more and more material so that players can find something new and interesting to try. But then you end up with a party of circus freaks that either crumbles under stress because their pretty designs don't have any bite or you watch in horror as some unholy combination of class abilities completely dominates the game.

Merrick

[sankarah]

It's not broken for a number of reasons:

For a full caster it's a sub optimal PrC. Anyone looking to be a dedicated caster specialising in Abjuration is far better going with something like Initiate of the Seven Veils and topping it off with Arch Mage. The extra hit points and BAB look nice, but what is a full caster doing in a position where he can get hit and needs the BAB that much anyway? d10 vs d4 is an average of only 15 hit points extra by 15th level (assuming you enter the class at 11th level) which isn't enough to be a game breaker when compared with the abilities that you could have got in that time. Similarly the extra 2 points of BAB (+3 over those five leevls, but effectively only +2 1/2 rounded down over more levels) don't do much.

This presumes IotSV is available in your campaign (I've seen it banned more than once on balance grounds) and that you're content to flush a bunch of feats meeting the prereqs. AC has the advantage of being nearly free if you happen to be an elf. Also, it gives you quickened Shields and Dispel Magic, which is quite handy since they don't prevent you from casting other things. Those two benefits alone make it an awesome class for pure casters, particularly sorcerers.

For a battle caster it's a useful class, but still doesn't do more than compensate for the disadvantages that such a character faces. As a 5 level class you still need to suppliment with Eldritch Knight over 20 levels so loose out on spell casting, the feats are not ideal and a combat caster is feat starved at the best of times. The class abilities are a useful way to cast in armour but a) use up spells, and b) can be dispelled. Over 20 levels as a combat caster you'll probably want to pick it up, but it doesn't make such a class that powerful.

Most groups don't play to level 20, so this is meaningless. The class is ridiculously useful during the "sweet spot" that encompasses most practical play, and remains a solid investment up to level 15 or so at least. After that...well, you're probably not playing anymore anyway, so it doesn't matter.

For a primary fighter with a few levels of spellcasting (where this class is really pitched) it offers the ability to rapidly cast low level defensive spells in lieu of a shield and get the most out of spells/slots in a melee situation. It functions in this regard as a lesser Duskblade.

Lesser? Not sure how you get that. Better spell selection (including access to swift spells like Wraithstrike), better AC, comparable fighting ability. Saves take a hit, but apart from that AC wins out all around.

The temptation is to use Eldritch Knight as a basis for comparrison, and compared with Eldritch Knight it's rather tasty, but that speaks more to the poor esign of Eldritch Knight than the overpowered nature of Abjurant Champion. Newer Prestige Classes (and Base Classes) are better designed than old ones (see Ultimate Magus vs Mystic Theurge for dual caster fun). The AC fits nicely into a design niche gap for some character concepts and is below par for others. If it ran to a full 10 levels and provided extra hit points and BAB all that time then it would be a bigger threat, but as a limited class that must still be supported by either the obviously weak Eldritch Knight, or else will be used to suppliment the casting of full BAB/d10 hit point classes like the fighter it is perfectly reasonable

It needs stronger entry requirements, but apart from that it's a strong yet still reasonably balanced class (and I say that assuming that obviously broken stuff like the Incantrix and IotSV is thrown out, as it is in most games).