[Mutants and Masterminds] Unsell me on M&M

[Morfedel]

Ok, I've heard all the strengths about M&M second edition... I'd like people to tell me where it's WEAK, because there is no such thing as a PERFECT game system.

Before you begin, let me tell you what my own concerns have been. I read and almost picked up 1st edition. But we tried a game, and everyone looked like clones of each other.

"Look, I have an Attack Bonus of +10! And a Defense of +10! And a Damage Bonus of +10! And..."


"Me too!"

"Me three!"


In other words, due to the rather easily reached limits on several different attributes of the characters based on power level, just about everyone decided there was no reason not to max out on that, as they still had a reasonable amount of points for a couple powers and such.


Yawn. Color me not impressed. I let it sit on the shelf.


My favorite superhero game systems currently is a toss-up between DC Heroes / Blood of Heroes, and Wild Talents; the former is fabulous for scaling up to even godlike, cosmic power levels, but WT I think is the best system overall for anything up to that point.

The problem is, I'm running a superhero game online; BoH is a bit difficult to do so since it uses charts, and I have to find a way to have them spread out on my rather choked computer desk; and for some reason, while half my group loves WT, the other half hates it (and this is the system I'm running now), so I'm half considering switching to another game system.

That, and I consider D20 a very mediocre game engine. Not crappy, but not fabulous either.

Yes, I know! M&M isn't precisely d20! But if they went so far away from d20 as it was, I think it was silly for them to keep to some of the other conventions of the game. Such as odd numbers in stats, which don't really serve a real function anymore (for M&M).

So... a couple friends of mine have told me 2nd edition has fixed much of that. I've had an opportunity to read SOME of the book (Every time I get into it, my friend decides to, oh, leave work and take his book with him, the bastard ;) ), so I haven't made a lot of headway... and of course, reading a game and playing a game can be two different experiences.

So, I've been hearing all the good things about M&M second edition. My FLGS is going out of business (very sadly), and is selling a leather bound silver-paged edition of second ed for half price. I'm about to buy it.

But before I do, I'd like to know what about second edition do you NOT like?


Thanks!

[J. Strange]

I've been running a Mutants & Masterminds game for a little over nine months now using the 2nd Edition rules. There's very little I don't like about it, but there is something you want to keep in mind: The system is designed to simulate the feel of superhero comics.

I know that sounds obvious, but it's not just a game where you can play superheroes. The system is explicitly designed to simulate conventions of superhero comics, particularly in combat. With the minion rules, characters will mow through mooks without even rolling dice because that's just how supers roll. With its damage system, half of your fights will be over very shortly after they start unless you exercise GM Fiat to keep them going. And in comics, that's just how it goes. If that's the feel you want, M&M is great. If not, though, you're going to find it frustrating.

[JimmieBJr]

Before you begin, let me tell you what my own concerns have been. I read and almost picked up 1st edition. But we tried a game, and everyone looked like clones of each other.

"Look, I have an Attack Bonus of +10! And a Defense of +10! And a Damage Bonus of +10! And..."

"Me too!"

"Me three!"

In other words, due to the rather easily reached limits on several different attributes of the characters based on power level, just about everyone decided there was no reason not to max out on that, as they still had a reasonable amount of points for a couple powers and such.


The one thing I don't like about it is that, being a d20 product, there's a certain munchkinism that sometimes enters into it. The numbers can easily tend to supercede the characters. This story is a perfect example of that.

Someone needed to remind your players that they were creating a superhero character, not the best collection of numbers possible.

[Belphanior]

The one thing I don't like about it is that, being a d20 product, there's a certain munchkinism that sometimes enters into it.

M&M is not a d20 product.
Munchkinism is commonly not considered the same as powergaming.
Even if it was, it's hardly unique to d20/OGL games.
And 2e solves this entire issue with trade-offs anyway.

A real munchkin in 1e would've made a Subtle Mental Energy Blast with perception range, whilst they'd be invisible with amazing visual senses that can penetrate matter, with enough alternate powers to penetrate immunities where needed. Kill people with no apparent causes from the other side of the world.

It sounds more to me like the players didn't fully grasp M&M yet and therefore played it safe. A +10 damage save keeps you alive? Then that's a priority. Nobody wants to play fragile and useless "heroes".

And that's an unselling point. M&M is a toolkit that can be a little hard to master.

[JimmieBJr]

M&M is not a d20 product.
Munchkinism is commonly not considered the same as powergaming.
Even if it was, it's hardly unique to d20/OGL games.
And 2e solves this entire issue with trade-offs anyway.

A real munchkin in 1e would've made a Subtle Mental Energy Blast with perception range, whilst they'd be invisible with amazing visual senses that can penetrate matter, with enough alternate powers to penetrate immunities where needed. Kill people with no apparent causes from the other side of the world.

It sounds more to me like the players didn't fully grasp M&M yet and therefore played it safe. A +10 damage save keeps you alive? Then that's a priority. Nobody wants to play fragile and useless "heroes".

And that's an unselling point. M&M is a toolkit that can be a little hard to master.

Nit picked.

Let me put it this way. Because of its basic rules skeleton, which is similar to what you might recognize as a d20 product but which is not one, it fosters the belief that numbers matter far more than creating an interesting character. The "+10" was far more important than what sort of hero they were building.

For instance, such a system might lead one to believe that a fragile superhero is a useless one, which is far from the case.

I see that as a flaw, but not one that's difficult to overcome. All that's required is a quick recalibration of the players' expectations from numbers and dice and quick optimizations to playing a character that has a few flaws but is still a hero.

[drnuncheon]

You will not be able to catch up on your reading like you can when waiting for your turn in HERO.

[JimmieBJr]

You will not be able to catch up on your reading like you can when waiting for your turn in HERO.

Or GURPS with all the switches on, or D&D 3.x, for that matter.

I have to say, I'm not entirely thrilled with Toughness Saves. I understand why they're there, I just don't really feel comfortable with them.

[The Great Jefepato]

The biggest problem I have with M&M 2e is that you need a GM willing to say "no" to make it work. Some powers and power combinations become abusive in a hurry otherwise.

Of course, a GM for any game needs to keep an eye out, but the dreaded Bathroom Mentalist can ruin a game a lot faster than most things you can do in other games.

Also, defense-shifted characters are quite disadvantaged by the static nature of the Defense rating.

[weasel fierce]

Damage saves is a mechanic that I dont really like much. I understand its very "comic book" and thus appropriate for the game, but its not a mechanic I like at all

[Voriof]

I'm starting to think that Future Villan Band has a point with these kind of negative threads.

Jeff

[Future Villain Band]

The one thing I don't like about it is that, being a d20 product, there's a certain munchkinism that sometimes enters into it. The numbers can easily tend to supercede the characters. This story is a perfect example of that.

Someone needed to remind your players that they were creating a superhero character, not the best collection of numbers possible.

Jim, baby, I love you, but you have just described every superhero game we've ever played. You cannot be seriously laying this at the feet of d20.

Do you remember Mongoose? And that was Fuzion! Shit, man, they wrecked your GURPS Supers game back in '94 doing that, I was there, I saw the bodies on the ground and the floating brain in the fishtank.

Exterminate the brutes, Jim, but don't forget, they're brutes whether it's d20 or not. :)

[JimmieBJr]

Jim, baby, I love you, but you have just described every superhero game we've ever played. You cannot be seriously laying this at the feet of d20.

Do you remember Mongoose? And that was Fuzion! Shit, man, they wrecked your GURPS Supers game back in '94 doing that, I was there, I saw the bodies on the ground and the floating brain in the fishtank.

Exterminate the brutes, Jim, but don't forget, they're brutes whether it's d20 or not. :)


Oh I remember them all pretty well.

I suppose I was hiding my point behind a veil of stupid. The OP's problem with M&M seems to be that his players used the system to provide the optimal numeric character. Well that happens. I picked on d20 because d20 really does seem to consider numeric optimization to be as important as character concept, if not moreso.

You're right, though. It can happen with any system.

[Wolfwood2]

But before I do, I'd like to know what about second edition do you NOT like?


Thanks!

It becomes very tempting to buy "fat arrays". That is, to buy useful powers that you may/will need occasionally as "alternate powers" of your main power. Since this only costs one point per alternate power, it is encouraged mechanically.

An example would be a Cyclops-like character with a big powerful energy ray that he can do lots of blasting tricks with it. When made as a PC, it turns out he can also heal with it. Why? Oh, the player will come off with some explanation, but it will be because healing is a really useful power.

[Deadmanwalking]

As others have said, certain powers (particularly Cloning and Summon) can get really broken mechanically if you don't have a GM willing to veto them.


That and the mentioned preponderence of alternate powers are actually about all I can think of.

[Johnnie Price]

I agree with Jimmie about the Toughness mechanic. Abstract damage rules just don't sit well with me.

[Morfedel]

You will not be able to catch up on your reading like you can when waiting for your turn in HERO.

LOL!!!!! OMG! That is so funny! HAHA!

[Morfedel]

Oh I remember them all pretty well.

I suppose I was hiding my point behind a veil of stupid. The OP's problem with M&M seems to be that his players used the system to provide the optimal numeric character. Well that happens. I picked on d20 because d20 really does seem to consider numeric optimization to be as important as character concept, if not moreso.

You're right, though. It can happen with any system.

IT's nowhere near the same.

Let me explain. I HERO (which I haven't played in ages), Wild Talents, and DC Heroes, the only real limit is what the GM assigns. As such, while some people will certainly push it for all it's worth, forcing the GM to say no, other people will be looking at all the options in the candy store.

However, M&M has hard-coded limits installed in the entire RPG package. Thus, the moment you start making that character and you see all those limits, well, I think the tendency is to automatically swing for the fences, even if you may not have otherwise.

At least, from my observations.

[Morfedel]

I have to say, the idea of the damage save actually appealed to me, because I never liked the idea of hit points and the like with superhero games. However, as before, it was other aspects of the game I disliked.

[Lisa Nadazdy]

LOL!!!!! OMG! That is so funny! HAHA!

Oh, yes. As funny as a cry for help, that.


This is the reason people don't discuss HERO on these boards- it gets bagged on all the time, even in threads that have nothing to do with HERO.

[Oblivious ignorant elf]

Is maxing out your attack, defense and all four saves really that useful in M&M?

Remember that powers themselves have no limit in how much points you can take in them, so you can get a lot done with those. If anything, it's the arrayed powers that can get crazily out of hand.

[Kreuzritter]

Is maxing out your attack, defense and all four saves really that useful in M&M?

Remember that powers themselves have no limit in how much points you can take in them, so you can get a lot done with those. If anything, it's the arrayed powers that can get crazily out of hand.

actually, depending on the power, they are blocked by the power level set by the GM

[Morfedel]

Hey, don't get me wrong, I have fond memories of HERO, but most combats could be quite burdensome.

The flexibility was quite impressive, and still is, especially for the time, but I think other, simpler games (such as WT and M&M) are beginning to bypass it.

[Endless Flight]

DC HEROES works really well for online play. I know from experience. Before you jump ship, maybe you should try it first. :)

[Lisa Nadazdy]

Hey, don't get me wrong, I have fond memories of HERO, but most combats could be quite burdensome.

The flexibility was quite impressive, and still is, especially for the time, but I think other, simpler games (such as WT and M&M) are beginning to bypass it.


I've said "that's your opinion, man" so often, I should put it in my .sig line. That said, as uncool as it is to threadcrap, it's even more uncool to bag on on a game which isn't even talked about in this thread. Sheesh. :mad:

[Deadmanwalking]

actually, depending on the power, they are blocked by the power level set by the GM

Not true. Mental Blast 10 with a couple of extras and 27 different Alternate Powers is perfectly legal in a PL 10 game, but can get pretty damn embarrassingly overpowered.

[Cardiac]

The only problem I ever had with M&M2nd was, at first, I was uncomfortable with the lack of fine detail. Then after playing the system for a while - I found out that it wasn't necessary and that I really didn't care if Mr Power Armor's minigun has 20ft more range than Mr Blaster's eye beams.

As for similar attack, defense and damage scores, we never really had much of a problem with that. First - most of our characters were built for concept (made use of the different benchmarks), and started at PL 8, so there was a bit of variety (especially with tradeoffs). And even if two players had similar scores, we realized that the hard numbers don't really matter - it's the FX that really counts. One character fires rank 8 X-Ray lasers from his eyes, while another has a minigun doing rank 8 damage with a burst. Meh - so what?

[charlieluce]

Well, I really liked DCH/BoH (even contributed, late in the process), have played tons of Hero and some GURPS and most recently over a year of every-other-week M&M 2nd (have and read through Wild Talents, wasn't thrilled), so I guess I should offer my take as well. ;)

First off, 2nd Edition M&M is a lot different from 1st Edition. We tried out 1E and went off to play other games, but we've been doing just fine with 2E.

Second off, M&M retains very little of d20 beyond the die, the stats, and some terminology. I don't play D&D/d20, but had little problem with M&M 2E.

Third off, yes, most if not all of the PCs in M&M will have their most important abilities at the campaign Power Level. This is perfectly understandable and normal, and unless they all decide to do exactly the same thing, like Cardiac says it's not a problem; even two seemingly similar concepts like Energy Controllers or Martial Artists can have a lot of difference in detail.

Fourth, and actually relevant to the OP, :D even with the Power Level mechanism to help the GM keep PCs from getting out of hand (which it does pretty well as such things go), like any free-form point-build system there will be Powers and combinations and permutations that you need to watch for and restrict or disallow (Summoning of Heroic Minions being one infamous example). I recommend spending some time on the official M&M forum (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/), which has a number of helpful topics on that sort of thing.

[Firelight]

Okay, for the record, I really love M&M. But here are the problems I've found with it:

1) It does not enforce genre conventions, period. You can realistically use it to run anything from Wuxia to Sci-fi, Fantasy, or Horror. If you've seen it in a comic, you can pretty much do it in M&M. There's no mechanical seperation, which is good for balance, but bad for 'feeling' like a Jedi, say. In some cases it works, in others it doesn't. Vampire, for example, has game mechanic support for feeling bad about murdering people to extend your own life for another night. None of that here, so things can feel generic.

2) The PCs are powerful. Call of C'thulhu, or anything else where the PCs should be afraid or seriously run away wouldn't work here. The game expects the PCs to be picking up powers, be they supertech laser-rifles, magic spells, jedi powers, or what have you. Anything in which the PCs are just regular folk isn't going to balance right. Batman in his own comic for example. Batman in the JLA is going to be closer to what you get.

3) The GM must run a tight ship. The system is critically vulnerable to being broken wide up, even at chargen. You must, MUST watch what powers your PCs are picking up, and veto if necessary.

[angelfromanotherpin]

My problem with mutants and masterminds is that with its level system, it is very difficult to actually have different power levels in the group. This is an important genre convention, and it's completely missing.

Seriously, the JLA ran from Superman to Green Arrow; the JSA ran from Golden Age Atom to the Spectre; the X-Men ran from Phoenix to Jubilee. One of the points of superhero team books is that everyone's contribution is valuable, and that it's not the power that makes the hero.

In a level-based system, you can demonstrate the power differential, but it's a lot harder to get the high-power and low-power members contributing in anything close to equal amounts.

[MemoryBeast]

In a level-based system, you can demonstrate the power differential, but it's a lot harder to get the high-power and low-power members contributing in anything close to equal amounts.

To be perfectly fair, having a high-powered and low-powered team member contribute equally requires a lot of contrivance, whether in a comic book or in an RPG. Awesome as Batman is, it takes work on the part of the writers to keep finding ways to make his contribution relevant next to Superman. In any Supers game with uneven power levels, the GM is going to have to expend real effort to make sure that the scenario allows for the lower-powered characters to contribute in ways that aren't redundant beside the higher-powered characters.

My little glitch with M&M is the absence of multiple attacks. Yes, I know. I know. That's a conscious decision on the part of the designers, and there are good, really good reasons why they did it. It still just rankles at me a little bit for some reason.

[angelfromanotherpin]

To be perfectly fair, having a high-powered and low-powered team member contribute equally requires a lot of contrivance, whether in a comic book or in an RPG. Awesome as Batman is, it takes work on the part of the writers to keep finding ways to make his contribution relevant next to Superman. In any Supers game with uneven power levels, the GM is going to have to expend real effort to make sure that the scenario allows for the lower-powered characters to contribute in ways that aren't redundant beside the higher-powered characters.

There are in fact games designed so that it requires no particular GM effort to have Superman and Robin be equal partners in a story.

[Deadmanwalking]

2) The PCs are powerful. Call of C'thulhu, or anything else where the PCs should be afraid or seriously run away wouldn't work here. The game expects the PCs to be picking up powers, be they supertech laser-rifles, magic spells, jedi powers, or what have you. Anything in which the PCs are just regular folk isn't going to balance right. Batman in his own comic for example. Batman in the JLA is going to be closer to what you get.

This is not necessarily true. A character with literally no powers who meets Power Level maximums is very viable and useful if made properly. I oughtta know, I've played one. They'll be hyper-competent at a bunch of mundane stuff in anything resembling a superhero game, but they're doable.

I agree with you on the other two, though.

To be perfectly fair, having a high-powered and low-powered team member contribute equally requires a lot of contrivance, whether in a comic book or in an RPG. Awesome as Batman is, it takes work on the part of the writers to keep finding ways to make his contribution relevant next to Superman. In any Supers game with uneven power levels, the GM is going to have to expend real effort to make sure that the scenario allows for the lower-powered characters to contribute in ways that aren't redundant beside the higher-powered characters.

M&M2E is one of my favorite RPGs for the specific reason that it minimizes this problem as much as any game I've ever seen. You really can do Batman and Superman together as long as they're the same Power Level.

[drnuncheon]

However, M&M has hard-coded limits installed in the entire RPG package. Thus, the moment you start making that character and you see all those limits, well, I think the tendency is to automatically swing for the fences, even if you may not have otherwise.

M&M has the possibility of tradeoffs, though, which makes that a little tougher to do - how much accuracy can you afford to trade for power? (It also helps prevent the "everyone with straight +10s" problem.)

J

[Garrowolf]

Um.. has anyone here read the Mastermind's Manual?

You can change anything about the game, even to the point of turning it back into regular D20.

If you don't like Damage Saves - use hit points, or wound/vitality system.

Don't like the seperation of BAB and dex, change the cost of Dex to 2 per point and it works the old way.

Don't want Mentalists - BAN them!

None of these problems are problems with the game. They are problems with the GM. If you write up a list of powers that are allowed and not allowed because all the supers come from source X then you can make the game what you want. If you want it to create similar characters to another game then only allow the powers and extras that would simulate that setting.

The problem is that the rules allow for nearly anything. It's like a liquid. It needs a container. That is the seting and style you want.

Stop blaming the liquid for spilling all over the place when you don't bother to use a cup!

[Cardiac]

The problem is that the rules allow for nearly anything. It's like a liquid. It needs a container. That is the seting and style you want.

Stop blaming the liquid for spilling all over the place when you don't bother to use a cup!

Oooo.....good analogy........

[Will]

My problems with M&M:

The openness can often be annoying. Yes, you can do anything. Yes, the GM can tailor things as desired. These are things I love about M&M. But, sometimes? I want the game to be only one thing and not another, and not have to constantly oversee, weigh, and judge every decision everyone makes; it's nice to have the system tell you what to do, sometimes.

Similar to the openness is often the sense of a lack of flavor. Yes, it matters whether I'm using eyebeams or a magic wand or a pistol, but the 'nakedness' of the system and lack of fine gradients between those choices often leads to a lack of engagement with the system.

I'm also not really pleased with vehicles in the system; this is one of the few areas where I really prefer BESM2e. The rules seem a bit confused, there isn't a clean fit with the rest of the system, and while the chase rules in MM (from Spycraft) are interesting, they also don't mesh cleanly with the core system.

IMO liberally applied, of course.

[Garrowolf]

So maybe instead of telling us that it is not fitting the style you want to run you should tell us what you want to run and let us help you mod the system to what you want. During this we may discover that we know another version of D20 that better fits your ideas.

That way we have a positive progression towards success instead of a negative drive towards nothing.

[Endless Flight]

I've always found the device and equipment rules to be somewhat 'lacking'.

[Garrowolf]

I've always found the device and equipment rules to be somewhat 'lacking'.

In what way?

[Firelight]

This is not necessarily true. A character with literally no powers who meets Power Level maximums is very viable and useful if made properly. I oughtta know, I've played one. They'll be hyper-competent at a bunch of mundane stuff in anything resembling a superhero game, but they're doable.

You're right, you can make entirely viable characters even with no powers. But what I was saying was that the game skews towards strong characters even at the lower power-levels. I'm contrasting with other game systems where you are playing 'average people'. Even the regular-joe type heroes are people like Batman, the Punisher, or Green Arrow. Olympic-level athletes with multiple Ph.Ds, trained in every form of armed and unarmed combat, speaking dozens of languages, and probably banking several million dollars.

Which is great if that's what you're going for. But we're examining the flaws in the system here, and I've found it difficult to make characters that suck. ;)

Going back to my example, if you look at Batman in his own comics and you look at him in the JLA, you will see a character operating at two different Power Levels. In his own comic he's probably around 5, and in JLA he gets bumped up to a 10 (at least). However, a M&M Batman even at PL 5 would be I think stronger than the DC Batman as depicted in his own books. The game skews towards strong characters even at the lower power-levels.

[Will]

I've been debating, and am still debating, running a space opera in either M&M or... D&D. Yeah, D&D.

M&M has such huge benefits of core balance, ability to define exactly what I want... but it's so bland. Neither system has a decent vehicle rule system.

Oh, just remembered another item... lack of AoOs. Yeah, people hoot and holler about how stupid AoOs are in D&D, but I like the air of tactics they add to a game.

Granted, you can add AoOs back in, but it somewhat jars with other assumptions to the game, like movement speeds.

Movement also bothers me a bit; even one point of difference between character Flight speeds and, well, there's no reasonable way the slower character can catch the faster one. Maybe that's sensible, but it's not satisfying, IMO.

[Morfedel]

DC HEROES works really well for online play. I know from experience. Before you jump ship, maybe you should try it first. :)

I have. Juggling with the GM screen to keep on looking up the AV/OV and EV/RV tables was a pain in the butt when also juggling with keyboard, mouse, etc etc, on a so-so sized computer desk.

Although, I guess I could always photocopy the charts and plaster them on either side of the monitor.

Also, I love DCH but the skill system, for the most part, sucks. ;)

[Morfedel]

To be perfectly fair, having a high-powered and low-powered team member contribute equally requires a lot of contrivance, whether in a comic book or in an RPG. Awesome as Batman is, it takes work on the part of the writers to keep finding ways to make his contribution relevant next to Superman. In any Supers game with uneven power levels, the GM is going to have to expend real effort to make sure that the scenario allows for the lower-powered characters to contribute in ways that aren't redundant beside the higher-powered characters.

My little glitch with M&M is the absence of multiple attacks. Yes, I know. I know. That's a conscious decision on the part of the designers, and there are good, really good reasons why they did it. It still just rankles at me a little bit for some reason.

M&M doesn't have multiple attack capabilities? Really? Hm....

[Cardiac]

I've been debating, and am still debating, running a space opera in either M&M or... D&D. Yeah, D&D.
Or, just pick up Star Wars Saga :D

[SuperG]

My problem with mutants and masterminds is that with its level system, it is very difficult to actually have different power levels in the group. This is an important genre convention, and it's completely missing.

Seriously, the JLA ran from Superman to Green Arrow; the JSA ran from Golden Age Atom to the Spectre; the X-Men ran from Phoenix to Jubilee. One of the points of superhero team books is that everyone's contribution is valuable, and that it's not the power that makes the hero.

In a level-based system, you can demonstrate the power differential, but it's a lot harder to get the high-power and low-power members contributing in anything close to equal amounts.

Actually, that is going to be a "problem" with ANY game that claims game balance...

Or at least, if you think it's still a problem in M&M, where Superman class strength speed and invulnerability can be counterbalanced simply by other people having better 'to hit' rolls for some reason or the other...


If someone is playing a character that is outright less useful in an objective sense (and Jubilee compared to half a brick in a sock, let alone the Phoenic, is objectively less useful), it's going to be a rare game that balances things out.

A PL 15 Superman feels like Superman... and I'd say a PL15 Green Arrow would feel like Green Arrow. He still wouldn't be able to hurt Superman... (barring a Kryptonite Arrow) but he could still be useful.


Edit:

For the honest unselling:


Hero Points, as a metagame resource, are conceptually difficult for some players. They often are used to try and 'win' the first fight on the grounds that the character doesn't want to lose or believe they can lose... or at least, that's what the player told me afterwards.

Superhero games bring out the worst in some people... if you can't wave gold pieces at them...

d20 can be an unselling point for some people, and it's still not D&D, so it doesn't work well as a selling point IME

[SuperG]

I've been debating, and am still debating, running a space opera in either M&M or... D&D. Yeah, D&D.

M&M has such huge benefits of core balance, ability to define exactly what I want... but it's so bland. Neither system has a decent vehicle rule system.

Oh, just remembered another item... lack of AoOs. Yeah, people hoot and holler about how stupid AoOs are in D&D, but I like the air of tactics they add to a game.

Granted, you can add AoOs back in, but it somewhat jars with other assumptions to the game, like movement speeds.

Movement also bothers me a bit; even one point of difference between character Flight speeds and, well, there's no reasonable way the slower character can catch the faster one. Maybe that's sensible, but it's not satisfying, IMO.

You can use Extra Effort to be temporarily faster than the person you're chasing.

[Deadmanwalking]

M&M doesn't have multiple attack capabilities? Really? Hm....

Sorta. It’s very intentional, and there are actually several abilities that allow one to attack multiple opponents in a round. What there isn’t is anything that allows one to attack a single opponent multiple times. I consider this a good thing, as, in every system that does have such powers they quickly become the single best combat strategy available, which is very anti-genre.

[Will]

Of course, in M&M, it's relatively easy to handwave 'I hit him with several shots' as 'I hit him with more than usual damage.'

Split Attack normally divides an attack between multiple opponents, but I'm honestly not sure it would be that bad to allow it against the same opponent, particularly if you also required multiple attack rolls (normally the same roll is compared against each target).

[SuperG]

Of course, in M&M, it's relatively easy to handwave 'I hit him with several shots' as 'I hit him with more than usual damage.'

Split Attack normally divides an attack between multiple opponents, but I'm honestly not sure it would be that bad to allow it against the same opponent, particularly if you also required multiple attack rolls (normally the same roll is compared against each target).

Well, it's a little ugly if you use it to spam 1 rank worth of power at someone several times (probably with improved critical...) if you've decided to target a weak save at lower PL's.

[Cardiac]

Of course, in M&M, it's relatively easy to handwave 'I hit him with several shots' as 'I hit him with more than usual damage.'

Split Attack normally divides an attack between multiple opponents, but I'm honestly not sure it would be that bad to allow it against the same opponent, particularly if you also required multiple attack rolls (normally the same roll is compared against each target).A better way to model that would probably be Autofire extra'd onto your melee attacks.

Also - a trick one of my player's super-speedsters came up with was a Selective Area Strike to simulate his super-fast PC getting a shot at anyone he wanted inside a certain area. Great at clearing rooms full of mooks but not so much against the BBEG due to his low STR (for that he had to use an autofired melee attack or a "mach-1 punch").

[Deadmanwalking]

Well, it's a little ugly if you use it to spam 1 rank worth of power at someone several times (probably with improved critical...) if you've decided to target a weak save at lower PL's.

Agreed. Though, to be fair, you do need the feat once for every split.

Quite frankly, I love the lack of extra actions. Nothing slows down combat more than umpteen billion actions a turn, and, I repeat, it quickly becomes the only viable combat tactic as well. The highly limited version suggested might not be quite that bad, but it'd still have distinct problems.

[Phantasm]

You can use Extra Effort to be temporarily faster than the person you're chasing.

or burn a Hero Point, which adds a power feat or doubles your movement for the round or something.

at first i wasnt too fond of power levels and the limits they imposed when i started playing the game, and to be honest, it was too easy to watch people abuse the system to create ungodly powerful superheroes. as a player, i like the game, its fun. but as a gamemaster, i think it requires a whole lot more extra work than most people want to put into the game to balance it out. but i think its worth it.

not to mention, even the experienced players have a tendency to max their saves, attacks, defence, whatever, even doing constant trade-offs (min-maxing) to the point that the characters are virtually indistinguishable from one another.

i like the damage and toughness saves, but its even more simplistic than 'these objects all do 1d6, and these all do 1d8' and leads to a 'why bother with any real detail' mentality.

again, i LIKE the system. there are a few things i dont like about it, but have no problems changing.

[SuperG]

or burn a Hero Point, which adds a power feat or doubles your movement for the round or something.

at first i wasnt too fond of power levels and the limits they imposed when i started playing the game, and to be honest, it was too easy to watch people abuse the system to create ungodly powerful superheroes. as a player, i like the game, its fun. but as a gamemaster, i think it requires a whole lot more extra work than most people want to put into the game to balance it out. but i think its worth it.

not to mention, even the experienced players have a tendency to max their saves, attacks, defence, whatever, even doing constant trade-offs (min-maxing) to the point that the characters are virtually indistinguishable from one another.

i like the damage and toughness saves, but its even more simplistic than 'these objects all do 1d6, and these all do 1d8' and leads to a 'why bother with any real detail' mentality.

again, i LIKE the system. there are a few things i dont like about it, but have no problems changing.

No, Extra Effort does that. Hero Points prevent Extra Effort from causing you to become fatigued; however, you are still using Extra Effort. I find people 'missing' this to be a big problem with the game...

As for powergamers, minmaxers, etc?

I don't think they're a problem with any one specific game.

[Will]

Actually, one thing I like about the game is that it doesn't require any arcane knowledge to hit maximums, rather than other games where one person knows how to max out power and other folks just thrash around.

You want max damage? There you go, PL limit.

What's trickier is the skill to recognize that you can more cheaply set values lower and give them room to max out situationally, like with sneak attack and similar.

[DarkPaladin]

Over on the MnM boards, I remember someone stating up the Justice league. He made them all PL 10 for starting characters. Everyone from the Huntress to Superman was PL10. Remarkably enough, the characters made sense and were well matched. Superman was suitably strong and invulnerable, yet it showed just how important characters like batman could be.

As far as having +10, +10, +10 syndrome. In the original playtest rules, there was no limit on stacking. We have playtest characters that had +10 to str, +10 due to strike etc, resulting in characters with +20-+30 damage. The plus +10 was a result of comments regarding that issue. However, this led to the min/maxing as you saw in your group.

2nd ed addressed this problem further. Now you can have +10 to hit and +10 damage. Or it can be +4 to hit and +16 damage, or +14 to hit and +6 damage. By allowing these tradeoff, it also gave more flexibility to the characters. They did the same with defense and toughness thus allowing further character variation.

[tobygrandjean]

*shrugs* Really, all the complaints have already been dealt with in one way or the other.

All characters look the same: Go over concepts and set tradeoffs.

Abusive characters: More GM supervision (required in all games but especially in point buy).

Useless characters: Either 1) build characters to the PL limits (by God if you have to have a character with a max damage of +3 you better have a +17 Attack and Power Attack!) or 2) tailor the game to the character

Not enough points to build characters (or too many): Play with open point limit to concept and PL. (Just keep an eye on the builds.)

Don't like the damage save: reverse engineer to hit points, or flip the mechanic for a damage roll and thresholds (it also puts dice back in the hands of players)

No multiple attacks: Autofire hand attacks, selective area attacks, Extra Attacks power in the MnM, or stepped multiple attacks (aka DnD) are easily added back in (though some are inadvisable).

Don't like the d20: It's easy to adjust the game to 3d6, 2d10, 3d10, cards, whatever....

As for what it doesn't do well; loot the bodies and get the gear. It's doable, but you have to tweak the whole PL limits to get it to work.
In that, I'd just rather play DnD for my hack-the-monster enjoyment.
Oh, and I don't quite care for the lack of detail for vehicles (so I won't be running a MnM Battletech game anytime soon).


(As an aside: For the people complaining about the Hero speed chart: If you have characters with Spd 4 in the same game with characters having Spd 8; Don't! If you keep Spd ranges within 3 points of each other you won't have to wait around with your thumb up your ass! It's even better if you keep it within 2 points.)

[Endless Flight]

I have. Juggling with the GM screen to keep on looking up the AV/OV and EV/RV tables was a pain in the butt when also juggling with keyboard, mouse, etc etc, on a so-so sized computer desk.

Although, I guess I could always photocopy the charts and plaster them on either side of the monitor.

Also, I love DCH but the skill system, for the most part, sucks. ;)

There's a few sites out there where you can download the charts as Word/Excel files and keep them on the screen. The Yahoo DC HEROES group has a few files. Then you can just pop them up on-screen when you need them.

The skill system does have it's flaws, but there's ways of dealing with them. :)

[Monkey King]

On the M&M boards, it might be instructional to go look at the various character stat threads, where people have done write-ups of all the major (and minor) comic characters out there. You can find a few PL 10 versions of both Superman and Batman.

Here's the key: the game pretty much assumes you're going to max out your relevant scores. What makes Batman different from Superman is that he has a large trade off between his damage and attack bonus, because Batman doesn't punch as hard as an Abrams tank but he DOES tend to hit whatever he's looking at. Batman also spends all his points on a wide variety of skills, things Superman can't do because all his points are tied up in being invulnerable and super strong.

For a genuine unsell, though, I understand the system tends to flounder at low PLs. Try to run anything lower than PL 6 and the numbers get a little wonky, which presents problems if you're trying to do things like Call of Cthulhu, spy adventures, and anything else low powered.

[SuperG]

(As an aside: For the people complaining about the Hero speed chart: If you have characters with Spd 4 in the same game with characters having Spd 8; Don't! If you keep Spd ranges within 3 points of each other you won't have to wait around with your thumb up your ass! It's even better if you keep it within 2 points.)

...but then, what's the POINT of having a SPD chart?

A SPD 8 superspeedster still isn't that impressive compared to a Flash... and yet, there's a school of thought that says 'normal humans cap at NCM'.

Besides. What kind of character concept includes 'gets to do something cool less often than other heroes'?

[Simple Man]

An unselling point for me: You have to get the Mastermind's Manual to have the best superhero game of all time. Maybe Ultimate Power too.

And lets not forget Freedom City for a badass campaign setting.

That many hard bounds gets pretty pricy... ;)

[Aubri]

Two points.
First, it can be difficult to come up with appropriate challenges when writing badguys. That is, there's not really a rule of thumb to say "Oh, this guy should challenge 4 PL 10 heroes, so his attack bonus should be around X."

Second, I advise you not to allow a team where everyone has a high degree of Protection. My first game had a Superman, an Iron Man, a Hulk, and a sorcerer. It really sucked trying to overcome that much toughness without vaporizing the sorcerer. In short, a Protection monkey is going to have to be targeted by other types of attacks, so this kind of crew is effectively immune to outright damage. YMMV.

Also, if your players say anything to the effect of "I'm just going to play the Powerhouse out of the book", beat them over the head with the Mastermind's Manual.

[tobygrandjean]

...but then, what's the POINT of having a SPD chart?

A SPD 8 superspeedster still isn't that impressive compared to a Flash... and yet, there's a school of thought that says 'normal humans cap at NCM'.

Besides. What kind of character concept includes 'gets to do something cool less often than other heroes'?

The best answer is that if you are playing a speedster, by all means have the highest SPD in the group; but don't overdo it! Find other ways to represent that speed, from having a high movement, to a speedster multipower, etc.
In other words, just because you are having fun don't crap on the Brick's fun (traditionally lowest SPD).

[SuperG]

The best answer is that if you are playing a speedster, by all means have the highest SPD in the group; but don't overdo it! Find other ways to represent that speed, from having a high movement, to a speedster multipower, etc.
In other words, just because you are having fun don't crap on the Brick's fun (traditionally lowest SPD).

I think you miss my point...

If you have to take increased running/other movement power, plus stunts to do super-speed 'tricks', and probably an area effect attack, and maybe some autofire...

Why do you need to also get to act 1.25 (spd 5 vs spd 4) or 1.5 (6 vs 4) times more often than another player?

Your character clearly isn't doing it because they're exactly 1.5 times faster than the brick. They're supposed to be much faster than the brick than that... but taking that much extra SPD would be unbalanced...


Essentially, the sole purpose of the SPD chart is to give some concepts the power of 'my player gets to impact the game more'.

After all, what's the difference between a SPD 4 and a SPD 6 speedster who have essentially the same powers otherwise?

The SPD 6 one is approcimately 50% more powerful and 20 points more expensive.


Ditching the ability to take extra actions? BEST decision in terms of allowing game balance to work I have ever seen. When I was running HERO, my house rules and PC-builds-for-my-players (make 'em all SPD 4) implemented this, just because it really doesn't add value to the game.

The SPD chart is just another aspect of the game enabling numbercrunchers and grognards to be more effective in spending points than newbies. It's a broken rule, insofar as it doesn't logically make sense in terms of what it does as compared to what it's SUPPOSED to do.

[tobygrandjean]

I think you miss my point...

If you have to take increased running/other movement power, plus stunts to do super-speed 'tricks', and probably an area effect attack, and maybe some autofire...

Why do you need to also get to act 1.25 (spd 5 vs spd 4) or 1.5 (6 vs 4) times more often than another player?

Your character clearly isn't doing it because they're exactly 1.5 times faster than the brick. They're supposed to be much faster than the brick than that... but taking that much extra SPD would be unbalanced...


Essentially, the sole purpose of the SPD chart is to give some concepts the power of 'my player gets to impact the game more'.

After all, what's the difference between a SPD 4 and a SPD 6 speedster who have essentially the same powers otherwise?

The SPD 6 one is approcimately 50% more powerful and 20 points more expensive.


Ditching the ability to take extra actions? BEST decision in terms of allowing game balance to work I have ever seen. When I was running HERO, my house rules and PC-builds-for-my-players (make 'em all SPD 4) implemented this, just because it really doesn't add value to the game.

The SPD chart is just another aspect of the game enabling numbercrunchers and grognards to be more effective in spending points than newbies. It's a broken rule, insofar as it doesn't logically make sense in terms of what it does as compared to what it's SUPPOSED to do.

*Chuckles* Yep, missed your point. Usually it's argued from the other direction ie: I'm supposed to be really fast so I need lots of extra actions.
Anyhow, before we derail this thread too hard I'll do a quick reply.

First, oh-hell-yes I support the idea in M&M of dropping iterative attacks. There are so many other ways to simulate greater speed. Excellent choice; makes things run fast. Less rolls, less hassle.
And yes, with HERO SPD doesn't so much as directly represent real speed but impact on the game. However, without buying esoteric defenses (intangibility: you don't hit me, Armor(invisible): No really, you didn't hit me, DCV skill levels: I'm always dodging, Shrinking: I'm that hard to hit and I'm kinda hazy, etc) those extra actions give you more of a chance to default to Dodge/Parry/Dive for Cover- as well as the ability to attack more I grant you.
I don't know. It's a fun thing for me. I like the way a 6 SPD martial artist interacts with a 5 SPD martial artist. And I like how a 7 or 8 SPD speedster interacts with them both (and yes, that could potentialy either be low or high depending on the game).
But then I suppose I am a bit of a grognard and number cruncher. ;)
What can I say? I like tactical combats.

[Future Villain Band]

I don't know. It's a fun thing for me. I like the way a 6 SPD martial artist interacts with a 5 SPD martial artist. And I like how a 7 or 8 SPD speedster interacts with them both (and yes, that could potentialy either be low or high depending on the game).

HERO Speed has always been something I liked in theory but hated as a player unless I was the guy with the high speed. Otherwise...ugh. I loathed it. Because it usually meant somebody else got more spotlight time, because of a mechanical element rather than because they were actually playing something worth putting a spotlight on.

[Morfedel]

What the heck? Why is this in the dungeons and dragons forum? M&M is FAR AND AWAY from D&D?!?!

[Deadmanwalking]

What the heck? Why is this in the dungeons and dragons forum? M&M is FAR AND AWAY from D&D?!?!

Um, it's the D20 forum, and M&M IS modified D20. As you have in your sig, now that I look.

[Morfedel]

True, but its so heavily modified I don't really think it counts. I actually forgot I had that in that part of the sig.

I mean... yeah, D20 modern is appropriate, but M&M is sooo different, and its often included in discussions of it versus other superhero game systems, that I think that in this one case it doesn't qualify for being moved....

[Deadmanwalking]

True, but its so heavily modified I don't really think it counts. I actually forgot I had that in that part of the sig.

I mean... yeah, D20 modern is appropriate, but M&M is sooo different, and its often included in discussions of it versus other superhero game systems, that I think that in this one case it doesn't qualify for being moved....

I actually kinda agree, but that's the way things stand at the moment.

[SuperG]

*Chuckles* Yep, missed your point. Usually it's argued from the other direction ie: I'm supposed to be really fast so I need lots of extra actions.
Anyhow, before we derail this thread too hard I'll do a quick reply.

First, oh-hell-yes I support the idea in M&M of dropping iterative attacks. There are so many other ways to simulate greater speed. Excellent choice; makes things run fast. Less rolls, less hassle.
And yes, with HERO SPD doesn't so much as directly represent real speed but impact on the game. However, without buying esoteric defenses (intangibility: you don't hit me, Armor(invisible): No really, you didn't hit me, DCV skill levels: I'm always dodging, Shrinking: I'm that hard to hit and I'm kinda hazy, etc) those extra actions give you more of a chance to default to Dodge/Parry/Dive for Cover- as well as the ability to attack more I grant you.
I don't know. It's a fun thing for me. I like the way a 6 SPD martial artist interacts with a 5 SPD martial artist. And I like how a 7 or 8 SPD speedster interacts with them both (and yes, that could potentialy either be low or high depending on the game).
But then I suppose I am a bit of a grognard and number cruncher. ;)
What can I say? I like tactical combats.

The 6 SPD Martial Artist is more than 10 points more effective than the SPD 5 one though. It's definately hard to prove, though, and it's been years since I last got into a HERO 'this is worth more than that' debate.

As for more actions to abort to dodge, etc? Hmm.

Well, the M&M way is to have high "AC" to avoid most attacks, AND high reflex save (to avoid area effects) - which is a good solution - alhough one hard to transpose to HERO. Although, it IS getting progressively less hard.

Still, the biggest problem with not having the extra SPD definately is how area effect attacks work in Hero; namely, they're the best way to nail guys with superspeed or martial arts mastery. (More specifically, it's the fact that DCV is useless... and you can't buy a passive 'I run and jump out of the way and then attack' power easily).


Still, sitting down and solving that whole gordian knot (everyone has one action per turn. Area effect attacks work best on people with low 'I dodge' ratings and low 'I'm tough' ratings) was cool.

I will, in the spirit of the thread, point out M&M does bad tactical combat. It does narritivistic/creative combat fairly well, but there's lessened scope for out-planning.

[Endless Flight]

I would classify M&M as a d20 game, just because it still shares some similarities with other d20 games, such as having saving throws and the six core attributes. Plus it uses a d20!

[Will]

M&M really is D20. I've run a M&M game using material from D&D with very little alteration, and I'm contemplating running a D&D game using M&M to help build effects.

[Ghola]

... So, I've been hearing all the good things about M&M second edition. My FLGS is going out of business (very sadly), and is selling a leather bound silver-paged edition of second ed for half price. I'm about to buy it.

But before I do, I'd like to know what about second edition do you NOT like?


Thanks!

Go ahead and buy it. It's a solid game in many respects, Kenson's love of superheroes shines through in every chapter, and you can't beat a "collector's item" selling for half-price. Also *all* of the supplements I've seen are top-notch which is a rare thing.

That said I'll remark that the most enthusiastic boosters of M&M were weaned on HERO... which means any other point-based character creation seems simple to them. I'm not one of those so I have a few of problems with the game:


If you don't have a spreadsheet then making even a simple character can be a headache.
A "skilled normal" character like a Batman can actually have too many combat options. When you're approaching 15-20 feats the plain ol' Superman clone starts to look a lot easier to play.
Check the official questions page at Atomic Think Tank to get an idea of all the weird situations/unanswered questions that can crop up in the game. The bright spot is that Kenson is on the ball when it comes to answering these. Without him doing so the game would probably be a quagmire.
Creative players will hear "no" an awful lot from an attentive GM while making characters. You could build an unstoppable machine of destruction by accident with this system - heaven help you if you have a lot of min-maxxers in your group.
Power "descriptors" (like "psionic" or "magic" or "radioactive") become very important when it comes to actual play. In fact they can literally make or break what one character is capable of in certain situations. Despite this descriptors exist outside the point-buy system so the GM has to hand-wave everything involving them.


Despite all of that though I've played M&M and have had great fun with it. Even with what I regard as its flaws. I think it's worth another chance for your group.

[Aubri]

Also, unless you have a specific setting in mind, Freedom City is an awesome setting book that makes you laugh every time you read it when you catch a reference to real comics that you missed before.