How to sell/publish a non-D20 game system

[Samurai]

Like many people, I was utterly blown away by the interesting and creative world of Castle Falkenstein. It evoked a sense of wonder and high fantasy like no other gameworld for me.

However, the rules were just too darn lite. The idea of using cards was creative and atmospheric, but it seemed to turn off many gamers who just had to have their dice. Also, the rules failed to cover a great many situations in the game, leaving it up to the Host to invent rules to cover them. Even the writers were unhappy with some of the rules, creating an entirely new damage/ wound system for the Comme Il Faut book.

The GURPs version introduced a whole new group of players to the world, and it seemed to catch on if the success of GURPS Steampunk and Steamtech are any indication. However, the GURPS rules system is VERY different from the original, and most people I know feel there is too much number crunching and imbalance in the GURPS version to be easily playable. The rules are just too distant from the original to satisfy the diehard fans.

I have been working on a solution... a middle ground. It revises and expands upon the original rules system (Poor, Average, Good, etc abilities), and nearly doubles the number of Abilities available for purchase. It lays out a clear and simple rules system that handles all ability tests.

But the best part is, it gives 3 ways to perform the tests: Dice (a d10 pool), playing cards, or a combination of both! In fact, you can play the exact same character with no modifications to the character sheet in all 3 systems! I am extremely proud of it, even though I am only about 60% finished writing it at this point!

I would love to distribute these rules somehow, but I'm not sure what the best way to do that is. I would love to break into the world of professional game design, so should I try to sell my ideas to R Talsorian or whoever owns the Falkenstein rights? This system blows the GURPS rules out of the water, IMO, so they would not appreciate it...

Should I try to distribute it for free on the web? Although the system is mine, the world and setting are someone elses. I don't want to infringe on their copyright... although I actually have no background material in my rules, it simple refers to the characters, locations, and details of the Falkenstein background. My document is simply a new way to play in that world.

Any suggestions? Maybe I should just change the world enough that it infringes on no copyrights and release the whole thing as a thinly veiled copy?

[Samurai]

Hmmm, no replies yet, eh? One thought I had is simply make a magic/ steampunk game with the rules and exclude the Faeries, Dragons, and Dwarves...

Another thought I had is that many people enjoyed the world of Space 1889 but HATED the rules for it... based far to heavily on wargaming.

A Falkenstein: 1889 game with dragons and magic alongside Etherfliers and martians would be very cool...

[Loc]

Always be very careful about using anything that is not your own, unless it's only the basic premise and you have changed it enough to make it unrecognizable as such.

Space 1889 was a cool game, I even liked the game play.

I hate cards. Not that it's not a good idea, but imho magic the gathering decimated the RPG world. It is a wound in me that will never heal.

[Samurai]

I fully agree... I never have and never will play Magic the Gathering!

The CF game used a regular set of playing cards, the same as Deadlands does. As I said before, my system works with dice only, cards only, or a combination (basically, dice for most things except a few special situations.)

I was reading another post about an amateur designer like me who has a world envisioned, but no system for it. I think that his unique world would work well with my system... but we'll see what happens.

Yes, I don't want to get sued or anything over this... I just love the steamtech and magic idea, and feel that it has not yet been done as well as it could be... Throw in some Pulp adventure ideas, stir, and it would be a blast!

[chaosonejoe]

I would suggest trying to do something on your own, and avoid tinkering with established games. No company will bother with the 'I can do it better' sort, so you'd simply waste time. Far better to find out if you are capable of doing your own thing, and establishing your own reputation, than trying (hopelessly) to get noticed by a specific entity.



On Cards: The biggest problem I see is that cards are almost always situational and specific, and rarely allow for game play in the sense of 'using the card' -- instead, the card takes over and imposes its text upon play.

--Joe

[Erick Wujcik]

Originally posted by Samurai
Hmmm, no replies yet, eh?

Because, in my opinion, those from whom you would like a response are probably confused.

You said, "...I would love to break into the world of professional game design, so should I try to sell my ideas to R Talsorian or whoever owns the Falkenstein rights? This system blows the GURPS rules out of the water, IMO, so they would not appreciate it..."

If you've got something for Falkenstein, there really isn't anyone other than R. Talsorian you could contact. It's their intellectual property.

However, as you point out, they aren't going to be all that appreciative.

What publishers seek is writers who can provide them with new product (new product = $$). You aren't really offering new product, just a complaint about their old product. So how could they react?

As least in my case, I need you to ask a clearer question.

Erick

[Samurai]

Yes, I think I was a bit vague there... I was not complaining about R Talsorian's product, really, as I loved the original CF. I was not very happy that they chose to license it to GURPS, as I feel that system does not really do justice to the atmosphere and setting of the game.

I think R Talsorian simply wanted to get the setting back into gamers hands, and this time use a dice system (perhaps one with some name recognition...) in order to attract new players. One great bit of news is that the next GURPS CF sourcebook, Ottoman Empire, will be dual statted! I'm glad they have not given up on the old rules set, even though it was a bit to vague and "lite" for many players.

My system was originally created to allow the use of dice with the stats that the original CF rules presented. Thus, 4 catagories of abilities, one for each suit of cards, became 4 Aptitudes: Physique, Agility, Personality, and Intellect. Each ability (skill) under that Aptitude has a name value, such as Poor, Good, Great, etc... and this determines how skilled you are at it. I used most of the abilities from CF, but added many more. (CF had 21, I have 36) Both also allow new, optional abilities beyond the main ones.

After talking to others about this, I now think that it might be best to simply adapt the rules to a new setting if they are to be published. No hassle with getting rights, etc... The system itself is highly adaptable to any setting... modern, victorian, fantasy, etc.

If R Talsorian ever has any interest in republishing a CF v.2, I've love to work on it and provide my system for its use. One of the keys in designing it was that you can use the exact same stats whether you use dice, cards, or both to determine the outcome of events. Thus, it is not really 2 whole game systems, but more like 2 different ways of resolving tasks in the same system...

Thanks to everyone for replying, though!

[Shadeling]

Also if you are looking for System design help/comments you should post in the Design forum.

[Crayne]

Originally posted by Samurai
After talking to others about this, I now think that it might be best to simply adapt the rules to a new setting if they are to be published. No hassle with getting rights, etc... The system itself is highly adaptable to any setting... modern, victorian, fantasy, etc.

If R Talsorian ever has any interest in republishing a CF v.2, I've love to work on it and provide my system for its use. One of the keys in designing it was that you can use the exact same stats whether you use dice, cards, or both to determine the outcome of events. Thus, it is not really 2 whole game systems, but more like 2 different ways of resolving tasks in the same system...


This is going to be one of those bubble-busting moments, but companies are rarely interested in publishing or even considering publishing your reworked version of their system. They have people for things like that. The trick is to become one of those people.

If you want to break into professional games design there are a couple of pointers that keep coming up in both these fora.

1. Read every RPG ever published, especially the crap ones, so you can learn from them. Style, do's and don'ts etc.

2. Start writing a lot. Write as much as possible, then go back, revise it and revise it again.

3. Approach companies only with submissions for either projects they are working on and need writers for, or with pitches for supplements to existing lines.

4. Companies will rarely consider an entire game

Ask GMS, James Wallis, S. John Ross, Greg Stolze (if you can catch him here), Dennis Detwiller, Erick Wujcik etc. etc.

Crayne, who knows he isn't a professional games designer either, but has seen a lot of these posts roll by in the past few years...

(edit: Erick posts in this same thread and I forget him. Damn I'm dumb)

[Erick Wujcik]

Originally posted by crayne


This is going to be one of those bubble-busting moments, but companies are rarely interested in publishing or even considering publishing your reworked version of their system. They have people for things like that. The trick is to become one of those people.

If you want to break into professional games design there are a couple of pointers that keep coming up in both these fora.

1. Read every RPG ever published, especially the crap ones, so you can learn from them. Style, do's and don'ts etc.

2. Start writing a lot. Write as much as possible, then go back, revise it and revise it again.

3. Approach companies only with submissions for either projects they are working on and need writers for, or with pitches for supplements to existing lines.

4. Companies will rarely consider an entire game

Ask GMS, James Wallis, S. John Ross, Greg Stolze (if you can catch him here), Dennis Detwiller, Erick Wujcik etc. etc.

Crayne, who knows he isn't a professional games designer either, but has seen a lot of these posts roll by in the past few years...


Four excellent, excellent points!

Point #1 is how I live my life. Yes, read every RPG you can find. You don't need to play every one of them, but you should play and/or Game Master a good range.

Point #2 is truth distilled. I learned to write whilst working at a big city newspaper tutored by crusty old editors, and it is exactly what they told me, time and time again (when hearing that I had lost an entire story in a system crash, I was told "Good! Your second take will be better.").

Point #3 is exactly the right formula for getting published in the RPG industry.

Finally, a bit of explanation for Point #4. Bear in mind that any new RPG must be supported by supplements if it has a reasonable chance of making any money.* So, if a company does have the resources and motivation to put out a brand new game, they would prefer to publish something from an author who has proven they can provide more than just the basic game, from someone who can churn out the requisite stream of supplemental material.

Good points, all!

Erick



* Yes, I know, very funny. ha ha.

[wingedcoyote]

Yes, I know, very funny. ha ha.

Er.. I missed the joke. Somebody explain it to me?

[Crayne]

The very idea that there is any real money to be made in the games industry might strike people as very funny.

That's the joke... :)

Crayne

[wingedcoyote]

Ah. Of course. Silly me. I assumed it was something more specific..

[Jamie Herbert]

Well, actually I have some good news, according to R.talsorian's website there is supposed to be a new Falkenstien player's guide coming out in July (so maybe by next Christmas we'll have Falkenstein back on the market!!)

Granted the system will be the same card based bit it was before. Regular playing cards ARE much more civilized than dice! just ask the good people of New Europa!

Perhaps starting work on suppliments of CF wouuld be a better chance to get in on the Falkenstien scene than a plan to build it from the ground up. So far the only change I think they are going to make is to possibly make the books digest sized for ease of use in Larps.

The other option is to start from ground zero with your own world. It could be victorian, but I would make sure to make a distinction (for example Space 1889 and Falk are both victorian but were radically different games in concept and system)

Good Luck

jamie