What's good and bad about SWSE?

[Mostlyjoe]

I keep hearing both wonderful and terrible reviews for Star Wars Saga Edition. Is the skill system broken? Can you make an unhittable Jedi? What is awesome? What is better?

[Danger Mouse]

Is the skill system broken?
The skill system seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it kind of thing. It's more streamlined than the standard d20 skill system, at the expense of some customability. My group and I personally love it; the only issue we've had is that skills scale weirdly compared to defenses, which makes Force power scaling kind of wonky.

Can you make an unhittable Jedi?
Dunno, none of my group have tried. Block and Deflect are pretty powerful, but not fool-proof.

What is awesome? What is better?
It's a d20 system that's streamlined enought that I can run it without burning myself out; that's awesome in my book. :) My main complaint so far is that the starship combat system is OK, but not quite fun enough to want to have to use it too often. I'm hoping Starships of the Galaxy fixes this.

[Redbeard67]

The skill system seems to be a love-it-or-hate-it kind of thing. It's more streamlined than the standard d20 skill system, at the expense of some customability. My group and I personally love it; the only issue we've had is that skills scale weirdly compared to defenses, which makes Force power scaling kind of wonky.


How hard is it to play SWSE with the more fiddly/choicey regular d20 skill system?
Or does that defeat the purpose?

[Skywalker]

Is the skill system broken?

No. It depends on your preference. SWSE skill system simplifies the D20 skill system considerably. The result is much easier to use but some people do not like the reduction in flexibility.

Can you make an unhittable Jedi?

No. Block and Deflect are not foolproof and loose efficacy as the PCs go up levels.

What is awesome?What is better?

I really like the classes, skill system, Force system and Starship Combat. It is all more simple to use yet felxible.

In fact, my most favourite element in SWSE is that vehicle combat works the same as personal combat making the jump between the two effortless. There is a small loss of realism in vehicle combat as a result but it doesn't bother me.

[Skywalker]

How hard is it to play SWSE with the more fiddly/choicey regular d20 skill system?

Or does that defeat the purpose?

Not hard, provided you keep the same max levels. On saying that, it would require the reintroduction of the concepts of cross class skills etc.

[Mostlyjoe]

My friend seemed to imply that if you take a few levels in Scout? And mixed your Force Skills into the mix you could make a Deflect/Evasion monster that was unhittable using the system.

[Dr. Tran]

My friend seemed to imply that if you take a few levels in Scout? And mixed your Force Skills into the mix you could make a Deflect/Evasion monster that was unhittable using the system.

Your friend is wrong.

You can make characters that are frustratingly dodgy, but they all get hit. Some of them just take a few more shots than others.

[Skywalker]

My friend seemed to imply that if you take a few levels in Scout? And mixed your Force Skills into the mix you could make a Deflect/Evasion monster that was unhittable using the system.

That is untrue. Yes, you can make an awesome PC in SWSE, that's what SW is all about. But there are ways around anything. For example, Acrobatic Strike grants a +5 to attack! :)

Taking an extreme example a Scout 1/Jedi 1 with Dex 18 would have a Ref Def of 17. A Stormtrooper gets a +3 to hit so he would hit on a 14 or greater.

Adding in Deflect (and assuming that the PCs has taken Skill Focus Use the Force and has a Cha of 18) he could probably negate the first two blaster shots at him with some confidence. The 3rd shot would be 50/50.

He is pretty hard to hit. But he would suck in a starfighter and his hitting power would be pretty awful. There are all kinds of situations where his "defence" would fail him:

1. Deflect only works against blasters. So it is useless against melee attacks (you would need Block). It also doesn't stop other forms of attack, such as Mind Trick, and other attacks against Will Defence.

2. Both Block and Deflect loose value as you go up in levels. At 15th level they are almost two wasted Talents.

3. Evasion helps to avoid grenades but you still take damage if the throw rolls over your Ref Def, just like D&D.

To create a tank, you could also add in Negate Energy if you wanted to be even tougher, but even that has its limits.

Personally, I would just take Running Attack. I would run out of total cover shoot him and run back into total cover. I get the ability to be unhittable with just 1 feat :D

[Danger Mouse]

Deflect + Evasion would make a person more difficult to hit at range (neither one affects normal melee attacks), but not totally unhittable. Even if they also had a huge Reflex Defense and Use the Force skill, there are ways to get your attack bonus even higher. My personal favorite is the good ol' storm-trooper squad. They all have Coordinated Attack, allowing them to aid each other's attacks without rolling, and an Imperial officer can bump up their aid bonus to +3 each. Give one or more of the stormies a nasty weapon, and have the rest aid them with their rifles to put the attack bonuses as high as you need them. You'll only get off one attack per round per trooper you actually have attack, but with all the help from their buddies the attacks will hit pretty often, even against high defense characters.

[Skywalker]

To give another example, the Scout 1/Jedi 1 unhittable whizz meets darksider Noble 2 who is force sensitive with Force Grip and Skill Focus: Use the Force.

That Noble could effectively immobilse the Scout 1/Jedi 1 with almost 100% probability, taking them out of the fight :)

[Danger Mouse]

To give another example, the Scout 1/Jedi 1 unhittable whizz meets darksider Noble 2 who is force sensitive with Force Grip and Skill Focus: Use the Force.

That Noble could effectively immobilse the Scout 1/Jedi 1 with almost 100% probability, taking them out of the fight :)

Hence my mention of Force powers that target defenses having wonky scaling. Don't even get me started on how abusable Mind Trick is against anyone who isn't high level...

But then, this is the Star Wars universe. Things like Force Grip and Mind Trick have to be really powerful to match what's shown in the movies.

[Skywalker]

Hence my mention of Force powers that target defenses having wonky scaling.

I understand the point but I don't see it as wonky scaling. I like how Jedi can use Force Powers against low level PCs much more easily than against higher level ones, even in relative terms. It mirrors what we see in the movies quite well IMO.

[Old Geezer]

How hard is it to play SWSE with the more fiddly/choicey regular d20 skill system?
Or does that defeat the purpose?

I cannot conceive of why anyone would want to.

The skill system was the absolute worst thing in Star Wars d20 2nd Ed. It stunk worse than Jabba the Hutt's ass.*





















*Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

[Shalvayez]

Force grip/ choke is probably the most powerful power in the SW universe. There's practically no defense to it, and look how fast Anakin learned it and was using it effectively.

[Ferrinus]

The chief problem I'd point out is the way Skills scale against Defenses.

The formula for a Defense (basically your AC or your fort save or whatever) is 10 + Level + Miscellaneous Bonuses.

The formula for a skill use is 1d20 + (Level/2) + Miscellaneous Bonuses. You get +5 if you're trained, and another +5 if you take the Skill Focus Feat.

What this means is that someone who is trained and focused in a skill at low levels can have a skill check that literally never fails to pierce someone's Defenses. On the other hand, if someone isn't trained and focused at level twenty, they'll almost never be able to land a check, and even if they are trained and focused they're more or less exactly even.

This is generally not a problem since skills only compete with other skills to start with...unless you're using the force, which generally involves trying to beat someone's Defense score with a skill check. The end result is that force users are unchallengeable gods at low levels, but gradually lose power relative to everyone else until they'll only manage to succeed with their powers roughly half the time at level twenty. This is kinda weird.

You can make an invincible jedi if you take Skill Focus: Use the Force and the appropriate talents, because the lightsaber parry powers involve rolling a skill check to oppose an incoming attack. So of course, you'll basically never fail as a level one character...but at level twenty, you'll have to take a bunch of various abilities to make parrying remain useful, and even so it'll probably only save you from attacks that would have actually hit you had you not parried very rarely.

[Metallian]

You can make an invincible jedi if you take Skill Focus: Use the Force and the appropriate talents, because the lightsaber parry powers involve rolling a skill check to oppose an incoming attack. So of course, you'll basically never fail as a level one character...but at level twenty, you'll have to take a bunch of various abilities to make parrying remain useful, and even so it'll probably only save you from attacks that would have actually hit you had you not parried very rarely.

Block and Deflect to degrade rapidly in the face of multiple attacks, however.

For all that - we had a Jedi who was highly focused on defense in our party, and he was nigh-invincible until he jumped on a grenade to save someone else's life.

The Metallian

[Old Geezer]

For all that - we had a Jedi who was highly focused on defense in our party, and he was nigh-invincible until he jumped on a grenade to save someone else's life.

I would love to have my Jedi die that way.

[Mostlyjoe]

I guess his GM threw 2 dark Jedi against his party and they seemed neigh-unhittable and really pissed the PCs off. They got really frustrated by these guys who walked over them in combat, dragging things out.

[Dr. Tran]

I guess his GM threw 2 dark Jedi against his party and they seemed neigh-unhittable and really pissed the PCs off. They got really frustrated by these guys who walked over them in combat, dragging things out.

My PCs hate the dark side user too. He has driven them to the point of death more than once, harried them across the galaxy and plans change from endless amounts of subterfuge to "Fuck. Lets just grab the thing and bolt" as soon as his presence is felt.

They hate and fear him. Inquisitor Tenebrous is a menace that shadows everything they do. Every time they make a move, they search the force to find him.

Someday though... someday they will match that smug bastard ounce for ounce of power and he will fall before them.

And on that day, there will be such rejoicing.

My god, it will be glorious.

[Danger Mouse]

I guess his GM threw 2 dark Jedi against his party and they seemed neigh-unhittable and really pissed the PCs off. They got really frustrated by these guys who walked over them in combat, dragging things out.

Sounds like the GM may have created the NPCs to target the party's weaknesses; if they got that annoyed by the Jedi having Evasion the party was probably heavily relying on grenades or other area attacks, which is normally a good tactic. If possible, they should have switched tactics to either trying to boost their attack bonus (if nothing else, aiding the heavy-hitter's attack) or using abilities that don't target the NPCs reflex defense. Depending on the PC character builds and levels relative to the NPCs though, those tactics may not have worked very well either.

[BlackSheep]

Some of the Dark Side stuff is really good in combat. Spend a Force Point for +6 to attack and damage for the encounter? Don't mind if I do.

However, the really nasty trick for Jedi is the Fool's Luck talent from Scoundrel. Spend a Force Point and you get +5 to all skill checks for the encounter (among other options). It's a really good talent anyway, but on a Force user it's amazing, especially one with Force Point Recovery.

[Bahama'at]

I guess his GM threw 2 dark Jedi against his party and they seemed neigh-unhittable and really pissed the PCs off. They got really frustrated by these guys who walked over them in combat, dragging things out.Likely because they were built with nothing but heroic class levels, right?

So they were hard to take down... like Darth Vader?

Solution, substitute levels of Jedi (I assume that's what they were, but it isn't terribly relevant) with level of nonheroic. They are still hell on lightsabers but far less main-character-like in their survivability.

Here's my quick and dirty substitution guidelines:
mook (Stormtrooper, thug) - 100% nonheroic class levels
crunchy mook (stormtrooper commander/ace, Zann Consortium defiler) - 75% nonheroic, 25% heroic class levels
minor villain (General Veers, a bounty hunter, etc) - 50% nonheroic/50% heroic
major villain (Boba Fett) - 75%-90% heroic, 10-25% nonheroic
primary villain (Vader, Palpatine, Malak) - 100% heroic

Minions (crunchy and smooth) are time-killers, they are there to make the heroes look cool defeating them, they supply sufficient threat (in large numbers) to make it convincing when the PCs surrender, etc but are generally of little threat (even when they crit on attacks, the damage is minimal).

Minor and Major villains are the meat and veggies of your adventure meal. They can give an individual PC a hard time, and with the right combination of environment and minions, even give the whole party an obstacle that actually needs to be thought through.

Primary villains are your endgame, major fights. They radically change the battle if and when they show up, turning even minions now into a major concern. They are equal to the PCs in all ways (talents, feats, gear), and often are 1-2 levels above the PCs average level. These fights are drawn out, they do require skill and luck, and they are the very stuff you need to spend Force and Destiny points to win.

- Ma'at

[Jackbooted Thug]

From my actual play on Tuesday, an old die hard D&D 3.0 veteran said, as he paged thru the SWSE book, "So, D&D rules in space. Got it."
After the session, he was grinning ear to ear and saying, "I can't believe that was a first level character He was competent!"

The point is, SWSE takes the sting out of low level characters and makes it fun to start at first level and BUILD your character. Something I think many games were missing.

[Jackbooted Thug]

Likely because they were built with nothing but heroic class levels, right?


Here's my quick and dirty substitution guidelines:
mook (Stormtrooper, thug) - 100% nonheroic class levels
crunchy mook (stormtrooper commander/ace, Zann Consortium defiler) - 75% nonheroic, 25% heroic class levels
minor villain (General Veers, a bounty hunter, etc) - 50% nonheroic/50% heroic
major villain (Boba Fett) - 75%-90% heroic, 10-25% nonheroic
primary villain (Vader, Palpatine, Malak) - 100% heroic


- Ma'at

This is pure gold, right here. Perfect for when I "Execute Order 66" in a few sessions. :D
Thanks, Ma'at!

[Master Of Desaster]

I cannot conceive of why anyone would want to.

The skill system was the absolute worst thing in Star Wars d20 2nd Ed. It stunk worse than Jabba the Hutt's ass.*

[... snipped some empty lines ...

*Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

Absolutely true. Moreover ... Your footnote got me critically flatfooted!

[Old Geezer]

Absolutely true. Moreover ... Your footnote got me critically flatfooted!


Nice to know I still got it!:D

[Juriel]

The skill system is the best part of Saga. The only hitch in it is when you use skills against defenses at low levels - so, mostly Use the Force. Force is still mainly single-target, or degrades fast in the face of multiple attackers, or relies on enemies grouping nearby. So it's perfectly manageable.

Just don't create lone Big Baddies without Rebuke. Our dathomir noble tends to bother such with Move Object that deals 10d6 damage every round pretty automatically. So bring groups. :p

[Skywalker]

I guess his GM threw 2 dark Jedi against his party and they seemed neigh-unhittable and really pissed the PCs off. They got really frustrated by these guys who walked over them in combat, dragging things out.

Saga is designed so that fights against mooks are very quick but fights with the big bads (like against Darth Maul) go on for sometime. This is the reason behind the scaling of Skills to Defences and the non-heroic class. IMO it is well designed.

So if the GM through 2 dark jedi with all heroic classes at the PCs it will take some time, but then again it should have been the finale of several sessions and worthy of the time. If he wanted it to go quicker, give each dark jedi half their levels as non-heroic ones and the combat would have gone much quicker.

[Ferrinus]

However, the really nasty trick for Jedi is the Fool's Luck talent from Scoundrel. Spend a Force Point and you get +5 to all skill checks for the encounter (among other options). It's a really good talent anyway, but on a Force user it's amazing, especially one with Force Point Recovery.

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that. Fool's Luck makes the skills/defenses imbalance even more hilarious.

[Garet Jax]

I like the concept behind the condition track and damage thresholds, but how does it perform in play? Does it slow things down much, having to recalculate threshold every time your condition deteriorates?

[Bahama'at]

I like the concept behind the condition track and damage thresholds, but how does it perform in play? Does it slow things down much, having to recalculate threshold every time your condition deteriorates?I'm not sure you do recalculate threshold, IIRC it is a fixed value not affected by the condition penalty.

In play, after a half-dozen sessions, it has come into play maybe 4 times, and only once in a vehicle. At level 7-8 it is still far more likely that characters (player and non-) will drop due to hit point damage than to condition penalties. Of the three character moments they've taken the penalty, they usually try and recover at the next available non-combat moment in play and the furthest they've gone is two steps down the track (to -2).

In the level 11-12 game I play in it hasn't come up for us - only for NPCs.

[Victim]

It's not really that hard to deal with, since the penalty applies to pretty much everything. It's such a generalized effect that it's pretty easy to apply mechanically.

The death spirally nature of the condition track means that spiking out major characters with condition damage is an incredibly effective strategy. If you pile condition causing attacks into the same character, they quickly drop from the "minor penalties" region of the track to the "screwed" part.

For instance, in my group one character likes to throw Force Stun and the scroundrel/gunslinger has feinting and dastardly strike, while my Jedi also has Force Stun and Adept negociator. Since my initiative isn't as good as the other characters, they'll often inflict a point or two of condition damage. Then my character can use her power/talent on whoever took the penalties, which generally KOs or cripples them. We fought 3 Jedi last session, and dropped 2 of them from conditions.

Equilibrium, Shake it Off, and other quick recovery abilities are a big deal.

[Garet Jax]

I'm not sure you do recalculate threshold, IIRC it is a fixed value not affected by the condition penalty.

There was a long discussion about this very topic on the wotc boards a few months ago that I remember reading (then quickly abandoned due to the flames). One of the Saga authors then posted that since the condition track degrades your Fort defense, it WOULD also degrade your threshold.

I guess it wouldn't be too much of a chore to write the new thresholds on your char sheet next to the track for quick reference.

It's a interesting concept that makes hit points a bit more "realistic" and I'm wondering if they'll use this in 4E.

[Fresh Ninja]

I'm not sure you do recalculate threshold, IIRC it is a fixed value not affected by the condition penalty.


Actually, you do recalculate threshold. While I don't remember off-hand if it's spelled out in the book, the FAQ thread on the WotC board mentions it explicitly.


Q: Do you apply your condition track penalties to your threshold since they lower your Fortitude Defense?

A: Yes. Any modifiers applied to your Fortitude Defense should also effect your threshold (even temporary ones), be they from armor, the condition track, ability score increases, etc.

FAQ thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=865406)

[Jim DelRosso]

It's not really that hard to deal with, since the penalty applies to pretty much everything. It's such a generalized effect that it's pretty easy to apply mechanically.

That's been my experience, as well -- since it applies to pretty much everything, it's a bit easier to remember it. That being said, I am considering grabbing index cards to slap down on NPCs' character sheets to make sure I remember.

[Ferrus Animus]

Just don't create lone Big Baddies without Rebuke. Our dathomir noble tends to bother such with Move Object that deals 10d6 damage every round pretty automatically. So bring groups. :p

How odes he do that?
Move Object allows you to deal damage once only.
Force Grip on the other hand...requires you to beat his threshold.

[Juriel]

How odes he do that?
Move Object allows you to deal damage once only.
Force Grip on the other hand...requires you to beat his threshold.
Step one. Take Move Object multiple times with Force Training.
Step two. Spend a Force Point to recover Move Object after use if you're running out and haven't rolled a 20.
Step three. Profit.

Anyway, rather that than the totally-incapacitating Force Grip. Her UtF modifier is 5 (trained) + 5 (skill focus) + 4 (cha) + 2 (level) + 5 (fool's luck for anything serious) = average roll result of 31, which beats pretty much anyone's threshold.

Just saying one should be prepared for it. Force-users are good against single foes, worse against multiples.

[Dave Turner]

2. Both Block and Deflect loose value as you go up in levels. At 15th level they are almost two wasted Talents.

Could I trouble you to walk me through this? I've lent my book to a friend and can't remember enough to work it out on my own. ;)

[Victim]

Could I trouble you to walk me through this? I've lent my book to a friend and can't remember enough to work it out on my own. ;)

Basically, a 15th level Jedi will have a Reflex defense of 25+feat, stat, class (probably +3 with Jedi Master) and ability bonuses. At 10th level, some of our more defensively oriented characters have ~30 Reflex with everything, so 15th level characters could do even better. But looking at this Jedi's UtF check, he'll have ~+17+stat mods with skill focus. His Block and Deflect rolls are going to have a tough time beating the attack rolls of anything hitting his mid thirties Reflex. They're more useful for negating the autohits of weaker foes and getting lots of UtF checks in a round (for the recharging natural 20) than as an effective defense.

[Dr. Tran]

Just saying one should be prepared for it. Force-users are good against single foes, worse against multiples.

Unless you agree that if you chuck a light freighter at a group of targets, more than one of the targets should get smooshed by the light freighter. I agree that this is so.

A few Storm troopers in tight formation? Chuck a Buick at them. You'll probably get more than one.

Other PCs can do that sort of thing too though. I'm a big believer in destructable landscape and falling debris.

[Fortinbras]

Step one. Take Move Object multiple times with Force Training.
Step two. Spend a Force Point to recover Move Object after use if you're running out and haven't rolled a 20.
Step three. Profit.

Anyway, rather that than the totally-incapacitating Force Grip. Her UtF modifier is 5 (trained) + 5 (skill focus) + 4 (cha) + 2 (level) + 5 (fool's luck for anything serious) = average roll result of 31, which beats pretty much anyone's threshold.

Just saying one should be prepared for it. Force-users are good against single foes, worse against multiples.

Hm...we interpreted the damage rules for Move Object as being capped by the size of the object.

Of course, in the first session one of the Jedi (3rd level) spend a Destiny point to throw a shuttle at a squad of stormtroopers, so sometimes the cap doesn't matter.

[Victim]

My group has limited damage based on object size. It makes using the power for damage much more dependent on the environment and a gamble - do you go for the easy 4d6, or accept a failure chance in exchange for more damage?

[IMAGinES]

Solution, substitute levels of Jedi (I assume that's what they were, but it isn't terribly relevant) with level of nonheroic. They are still hell on lightsabers but far less main-character-like in their survivability.

Here's my quick and dirty substitution guidelines:
mook (Stormtrooper, thug) - 100% nonheroic class levels
crunchy mook (stormtrooper commander/ace, Zann Consortium defiler) - 75% nonheroic, 25% heroic class levels
minor villain (General Veers, a bounty hunter, etc) - 50% nonheroic/50% heroic
major villain (Boba Fett) - 75%-90% heroic, 10-25% nonheroic
primary villain (Vader, Palpatine, Malak) - 100% heroic

Just checking: We're talking same number of levels PC average, right? So, level 5 group, make a mook with 5 levels of nonheroic and a minor villain with, say, 3 heroic, 2 non?

[Ferrus Animus]

Step one. Take Move Object multiple times with Force Training.
Step two. Spend a Force Point to recover Move Object after use if you're running out and haven't rolled a 20.
Step three. Profit.

Anyway, rather that than the totally-incapacitating Force Grip. Her UtF modifier is 5 (trained) + 5 (skill focus) + 4 (cha) + 2 (level) + 5 (fool's luck for anything serious) = average roll result of 31, which beats pretty much anyone's threshold.

Just saying one should be prepared for it. Force-users are good against single foes, worse against multiples.


So she spends feats talents and FP just to use this trick?
I doN't really see the problem except her narrow specialization.

Hm...we interpreted the damage rules for Move Object as being capped by the size of the object.


It actually states that damage is determined by the UTF-check....

[OldKentuckyShark]

Basically, a 15th level Jedi will have a Reflex defense of 25+feat, stat, class (probably +3 with Jedi Master) and ability bonuses. At 10th level, some of our more defensively oriented characters have ~30 Reflex with everything, so 15th level characters could do even better. But looking at this Jedi's UtF check, he'll have ~+17+stat mods with skill focus. His Block and Deflect rolls are going to have a tough time beating the attack rolls of anything hitting his mid thirties Reflex. They're more useful for negating the autohits of weaker foes and getting lots of UtF checks in a round (for the recharging natural 20) than as an effective defense.

By your math, he'd have about a 50% chance of deflecting any attacks that exactly beat his REF, which is nothing to be sneezed at. And that's not taking into account such diverse tricks as taking a level of Scoundrel for Fool's Luck (+25% chance to Deflect), taking the Soresu talent (two chances to deflect for every attack, plus it doubles your odds of hitting the 20 jackpot) or simply spending a force point to attempt a Hail Mary save (something you can't do with defenses). Block/Deflect has to be supplemented by additional talents at higher levels to retain its starting effectiveness, but it never stops being a damn good trick.

[Fresh Ninja]

By your math, he'd have about a 50% chance of deflecting any attacks that exactly beat his REF, which is nothing to be sneezed at. And that's not taking into account such diverse tricks as taking a level of Scoundrel for Fool's Luck (+25% chance to Deflect), taking the Soresu talent (two chances to deflect for every attack, plus it doubles your odds of hitting the 20 jackpot) or simply spending a force point to attempt a Hail Mary save (something you can't do with defenses). Block/Deflect has to be supplemented by additional talents at higher levels to retain its starting effectiveness, but it never stops being a damn good trick.

At that point you have invested a major part of the Lego bricks making up your character into the ability to use Block and Deflect. This is rewarded by Block/Deflect being effective at high levels.

I don't think there's a problem here.

[Dave Turner]

Basically, a 15th level Jedi will have a Reflex defense of 25+feat, stat, class (probably +3 with Jedi Master) and ability bonuses. At 10th level, some of our more defensively oriented characters have ~30 Reflex with everything, so 15th level characters could do even better. But looking at this Jedi's UtF check, he'll have ~+17+stat mods with skill focus. His Block and Deflect rolls are going to have a tough time beating the attack rolls of anything hitting his mid thirties Reflex. They're more useful for negating the autohits of weaker foes and getting lots of UtF checks in a round (for the recharging natural 20) than as an effective defense.
Thanks, I see how that works out now. In a sense, it's a good reflection of what we see in the movies. Obi-Wan and Anakin dance unscathed and untroubled through droid fire, but actually slug it out with named NPCs. I hope it was intentional on WotC's part. ;)

[Juriel]

So she spends feats talents and FP just to use this trick? I doN't really see the problem except her narrow specialization.
Yep, I did not say it was a problem. I'm totally fine with that, especially as I'd be able to drop said jedi in a round, since her other traits suck so hard. She's a mage-y glass cannon. :)

[Victim]

By your math, he'd have about a 50% chance of deflecting any attacks that exactly beat his REF, which is nothing to be sneezed at. And that's not taking into account such diverse tricks as taking a level of Scoundrel for Fool's Luck (+25% chance to Deflect), taking the Soresu talent (two chances to deflect for every attack, plus it doubles your odds of hitting the 20 jackpot) or simply spending a force point to attempt a Hail Mary save (something you can't do with defenses). Block/Deflect has to be supplemented by additional talents at higher levels to retain its starting effectiveness, but it never stops being a damn good trick.

Sort of. That 50/50 shot is based off the best normal skill check (as you say, Fool's Luck and some of the lightsabre forms offer further improvements) and the worst normal defense. Spend a feat on Improved Defenses, and Block/Deflect get worse. Take Martial Arts feats, and those talents get worse. Racial properties like Small or Lightning Reflexes make blocking weaker. Lightsabre Defense and its follow-up talents make blocking weaker.

So yeah, when you look at all the ways to improve Block/Deflect and then don't allocate any resources to improving conventional scores, Block and Deflect look really good. Plus there are other forms of defense besides defense scores and blocking. If I wanted a nigh invincible Jedi, then I might also be looking at Equilibrium, Force Recovery, and Extra Second Wind feats. Then the character can shed conditions easily and his Second Winds are looking like full heals - especially if backed up by Force Point Recovery.

Overall, Block and Deflect can certainly be useful, but I'm not sure that they're the best bang for the buck defensively.

[Ifshnit]

Sort of. That 50/50 shot is based off the best normal skill check (as you say, Fool's Luck and some of the lightsabre forms offer further improvements) and the worst normal defense. Spend a feat on Improved Defenses, and Block/Deflect get worse. Take Martial Arts feats, and those talents get worse. Racial properties like Small or Lightning Reflexes make blocking weaker. Lightsabre Defense and its follow-up talents make blocking weaker.

Are you sure you're talking about the same thing? Block/Deflect is simply "no, you really missed me." As such, if something actually manages to beat your mid-thirties Reflex AC, having a nearly 50% get-out-of-being-hit-free card is nice. As such, it's a talent that keeps on giving regardless of level. It just becomes less effective when you have multiple shots being directed at you in a round that get through your defenses. What do Martial Arts, Improved Defenses, etc, have to do with that? If you're talking the talent Redirect, then I'm following you. Somebody else's defenses have absolutely nothing to do with Block/Deflect (you just have to beat the attack score that hit you with your UtF roll).

Edit: Also, Redirect uses your own ranged attack roll (and not UtF) when you successfully Deflect.

Second Edit: I suppose I could be misreading what you're saying. If you're saying you can buff your own AC so that any shot that hits you is less likely to be able to be blocked or deflected because the DC of that attack is way too high, then Ok, I see where you're coming from. In that instance, however, I'd still prefer the off-chance I might get lucky on the Block/Deflect vs. not having it and just having to absorb the hit.

[Jim DelRosso]

My group has limited damage based on object size. It makes using the power for damage much more dependent on the environment and a gamble - do you go for the easy 4d6, or accept a failure chance in exchange for more damage?

That's how we've been playing it, as well, though I considered the other interpretation. It might be wrong, but it works for us. :)

[Bahama'at]

Just checking: We're talking same number of levels PC average, right? So, level 5 group, make a mook with 5 levels of nonheroic and a minor villain with, say, 3 heroic, 2 non?Usually yes - obviously at level 1-2 it won't matter a whole lot. Also, at low levels you can have goons still being goons even at PC level+1 or +2, if those levels are all in the nonheroic class.

My best rule is things like the main villain, especially if they are meant to stand toe to toe with multiple PCs, should be +1 level above the average PC level, that +1 feat or talent, the extra hit die, and the bonus to defenses will make them just that bit more memorable, given that multiple PCs means lots of Aiding. Think of it as the Dooku vs Obi-wan/Anakin rule.

[Victim]

Second Edit: I suppose I could be misreading what you're saying. If you're saying you can buff your own AC so that any shot that hits you is less likely to be able to be blocked or deflected because the DC of that attack is way too high, then Ok, I see where you're coming from. In that instance, however, I'd still prefer the off-chance I might get lucky on the Block/Deflect vs. not having it and just having to absorb the hit.

Yeah, that's it. Block or Deflect turn hits into misses - it's not useful to turn a miss into a miss. So increases in your defense score mean that most hits will have higher attack rolls. So the DC of your Block rolls is higher.

Sure, you might rather have the extra Block or Deflect roll to help out your defenses. On the other hand, Block and Defense are two talents that you could be spending in other ways. While it's better to have them than to be without, it might be better to have the other talents you could have picked - Force talents, other Jedi talents, multiclassing options since fewer Jedi levels are needed.

[Zeea]

SWSE is by far the best D20 System subsystem I've seen, and I like it, but it still has some major problems that I've had to house-rule.

Mainly, after 30 years of problems, TSR/WotC STILL hasn't figured out that if you have two different variables added to 1d20, and they don't scale the same, things are going to break completely at both ends of the scale. (That's why the "retire your character" thing always came up as a solution.)

For example, in SWSE, defense goes up by 1 point per level, but attack bonus does not unless you are purely classed with +1.00 per level BAB. The average is 0.75, though. What this means is that a typical 20th level character is only about 30% likely to hit equal foes, whereas a 1st level character is 55% likely to hit equal foes, and since the 20th level characters have way more hitpoints than 1st level characters, but not all that much more damage, 20th level fights last FOREVER unless someone is using Force Lightning, in which case hitpoints suddenly become totally irrelevant. EDIT: In discussions about this, some people insist that it is a good thing that you basically end up playing a completely unrecognizable game at high levels, whereas I believe that it be smarter to assume the players would have already been playing those other games instead of the one they started on if they wanted a completely different game.

Solution: If BAB and defenses are going to be compared, they need to be roughly equal at all levels. All characters should have the same rate of progression for BAB and Defense. Characters better at hitting could have a flat bonus to attacks like they do for defenses, but a scaling difference doesn't work when nothing else uses a scale difference.

Skills go up half as fast as defenses but start much higher. However, despite the HUGE difference in skill vs. defense numbers at most levels, they are often compared. This works fine at 20th level, is slightly broken at other levels near it, and is totally broken at levels far from it. (If you expand the game past level 20, skills start getting progressively weaker.) At first level, it's typical to have a skill rating ten points higher than defense ratings (because we're mainly talking about Use the Force here, and any serious Force-user without skill focus in that is an idiot), and as far as I can remember, skills don't even fail on a 1, so you have 100% success rates, whereas at level 20, they're usually even, and you have a 55% success rate, and things aren't so ridiculous.

Solution: If skills and defenses are going to be compared, they need to be roughly equal at all levels. Either that, or the few skills that ever get compared to defenses should use BAB standards listed above, and Skill Focus added to those skills should not give a higher bonus than anything that affects attack rolls or defenses.

Combined Solution: All classes use level as BAB (instead of 3/4 level sometimes) and base skill level (instead of 1/2 level plus 5 with an additional plus 5 much of the time.) If you don't have a skill, you suffer a -5 nonproficiency penalty like you would with a weapon. If you have skill focus, you get a +1 bonus like you would with a weapon. (If that's too low, maybe it's time to wonder if a +1 bonus to a weapon attack is too low.)

If 1st level, 10th level, and 20th level work roughly the same in terms of dice contests, the game shouldn't have problems. If they don't, I can guarantee it will have serious problems scaling, and I can almost guarantee that Wizards will choose to pretend this is not the case and try to make some epic level rules that are doomed to fail like every epic level rules set ever made for (A)D&D and associated games.

[Ifshnit]

Sure, you might rather have the extra Block or Deflect roll to help out your defenses. On the other hand, Block and Defense are two talents that you could be spending in other ways. While it's better to have them than to be without, it might be better to have the other talents you could have picked - Force talents, other Jedi talents, multiclassing options since fewer Jedi levels are needed.

Thanks for the clarification, Victim. And yeah, I see your point. Although at least those talents don't completely lose their effectiveness unlike regular d20 with a vast majority of feats, and it does still fit some character concepts. Which is a nice thing, IMO, about SWSE (although there are still some feats/talents that suck).

[Bahama'at]

SWSE is by far the best D20 System subsystem I've seen, and I like it, but it still has some major problems that I've had to house-rule.

Mainly, after 30 years of problems, TSR/WotC STILL hasn't figured out that if you have two different variables added to 1d20, and they don't scale the same, things are going to break completely at both ends of the scale. (That's why the "retire your character" thing always came up as a solution.)

For example, in SWSE, defense goes up by 1 point per level, but attack bonus does not unless you are purely classed with +1.00 per level BAB. The average is 0.75, though. What this means is that a typical 20th level character is only about 30% likely to hit equal foes, whereas a 1st level character is 55% likely to hit equal foes, and since the 20th level characters have way more hitpoints than 1st level characters, but not all that much more damage, 20th level fights last FOREVER unless someone is using Force Lightning, in which case hitpoints suddenly become totally irrelevant. EDIT: In discussions about this, some people insist that it is a good thing that you basically end up playing a completely unrecognizable game at high levels, whereas I believe that it be smarter to assume the players would have already been playing those other games instead of the one they started on if they wanted a completely different game.Actually, it is a good thing, but you are looking at it from the wrong direction.

Star Wars is not about shooting away on equal-(heroic) level opponents. In Return of ther Jedi, Han, Leia and Luke are still facing low-level threats in sufficient quantity to change their tactics from "slaughter them all/ignore their attacks" to "run, dodge and go." There are very few fights that would be considered "equal, high level" - Windu/Palpatine, Yoda/Palpatine, Luke/Vader (Jedi), Maul/Qui-Gon+Obi-wan, etc. You will note that such duels *do* take a long time, drawn out battles. In the Saga edition this "failure" as you see it is used in-genre as a strength. Equal-peer showdowns to the death are your climax of an adventure, they and the near-equal fights take place only once... possibly twice a movie. It is stated in a both the book and in the GM's handout on building encounters, that equal-level fights are not the bread-and-butter of your adventure.

Two other factors you aren't taking into account - Destiny/Force points, and the nonheroic class. The nonheroic class does not gain +1 Defense per character level - so they are always easy for PCs to hit in combat regardless of level, and mixed heroic/nonheroic NPC builds drop the end Defense scores by a considerable amount. In the case of Force/Destiny pure stats go out the window. One Destiny point can end a combat - resulting in an auto-crit (which in the hands of a hihg-level PC can mean hundreds of hit point in damage, and depending on the build/weapon, several condition track* steps in a single attack), Force points add up to 6 (or 8) to your attack roll, balancing out those fights quite easily.

*One side note on the condition track. It has been said that high-level fights will be most often resolved by condition track penalties than by raw hit points and from what I've seen at level 11-12, that is becoming true. Adapet Negotiator, stun weapons, Force Lightning, Dastardly Strike, and many other feats and talents all force those condition track penalties - some even if they only hit, regardless of damage inflicted. And given multiple PCs vs single NPC encounter formats, that means PCs can almost guarantee 1 track step per round.

Then there are the other factors - terrain, number of combatants per side, and tactics. The typical final showdown is against 1, possibly 2, NPCs of equal level (or level+1) vs 4-6 PCs. PCs automatically gain the advantage of flanking, aiding another and other bonuses based on their individual builds and gear - the NPC is outnumbered and faces multiple attacks per round to their single attack action. Also terrain is a factor - this sort of fight is often on the hometerrain of the villain, but not always (Empire Strikes Back and Phantom Menace both have their big finales take place on 'neutral' ground) but terrain can be used against the single NPC villain as well, limiting attacks, removing the possibility of charge attacks or free movement, stationary threats (like a Sarlacc) throwing attacks at random passers-by, etc.

I think if you look at your complaint you'll see it has more to do with how you self-define encounters a game, and less to do with an actual failing of the game itself.

- Ma'at

[Skywalker]

Actually, it is a good thing, but you are looking at it from the wrong direction.

I agree with Ma'at. I was first shocked to see the Attack/Defence balance in SWSE as it is the first time it has been reversed. However, once you look at it and use it in play it actually makes a lot of sense and works.

Mook combats fly past while the finales are long duels in which both sides throw all their resources into in order to win. Great stuff.

[OldKentuckyShark]

I agree with Ma'at. I was first shocked to see the Attack/Defence balance in SWSE as it is the first time it has been reversed. However, once you look at it and use it in play it actually makes a lot of sense and works.

Mook combats fly past while the finales are long duels in which both sides throw all their resources into in order to win. Great stuff.

I also really enjoy how defenses are high but static, and offense is bit low, but much easier to generate bonuses to through tactics and abilities. It makes combat feel dynamic; a Noble feels good when he inspires because the soldier really NEEDS that +1 to hit, and a Scoundrel feels like a king every time he tumbles into a flank AND kicks in Acrobatic Strike.

[Zeea]

I don't mind long climatic battles, but I'd like them at low-levels too (where combats are way too quick and random), and I'd rather "long" not mean "hitpoints are suddenly irrelevant and you're basically using a Wound system from a White Wolf game" at later levels.

[BlackSheep]

and a Scoundrel feels like a king every time he tumbles into a flank AND kicks in Acrobatic Strike.
That reminds me of a question I had, actually.

Is there anything you can do to stop someone with Acrobatic Strike from tumbling around you every turn?

DC15 quickly becomes automatic, so the acrobat is just spending a move action for a +5 to hit without risk. Not something I'd (hypothetically) want to be on the receiving end of.

Best I've got is moving away at full speed every turn.

What about simply declaring you're not making an AOO when provoked? Would that nullify the Acrobatic Strike?

[Skywalker]

I don't mind long climatic battles, but I'd like them at low-levels too (where combats are way too quick and random),

You can in a number of ways, such as multiplying the number of opponents. However, in general, fights against level equivalent opponents will take longer than against nonheroic mooks. I personally see this as a real feature.

and I'd rather "long" not mean "hitpoints are suddenly irrelevant and you're basically using a Wound system from a White Wolf game" at later levels.

I haven't found that, even at high levels. Damage Thresholds are such that they come more into play at higher levels, but they never make HP irrelevant. The fact that you can remove conditions with recovery action means that at higher levels, the condition track sees PCs making decisions between recovery (i.e. miss a turn effectively) or taking action (i.e. in line with the idea of making higher level combat more engaging through resource expenditure and decisions), whilst at lower levels things are more simple. Again this is a clever feature to me.

[Skywalker]

What about simply declaring you're not making an AOO when provoked? Would that nullify the Acrobatic Strike?

There is some debate on this at the moment. Acrobatic Strike seems mostly designed to open up the defences of someone who is engaged in melee with you. As such, if you cannot provoke an Attack of Opportunity (you have a blaster rifle) then they cannot get the bonus. I have seen a number of people also say that it is possible to avoid Acrobatic Strike by electing not to take an attack of opportunity. This seems reaosnable (and pretty cool) to me.

[Juriel]

There is some debate on this at the moment. Acrobatic Strike seems mostly designed to open up the defences of someone who is engaged in melee with you. As such, if you cannot provoke an Attack of Opportunity (you have a blaster rifle) then they cannot get the bonus. I have seen a number of people also say that it is possible to avoid Acrobatic Strike by electing not to take an attack of opportunity. This seems reaosnable (and pretty cool) to me.
Acrobatic Strike is a strange bird. It gives a HUGE bonus (an easy +5 in a game where you have to struggle for every other +1), but it makes no sense that enemies can nullify it completely by just going 'well, the moment I see someone tumbling towards me, I won't AoO them'.

[Ferrinus]

Acrobatic strike is good - possibly too good - but it would be utterly ruined if the target had an option to deny it. Instead of a gamble that eventually becomes a dependable persistant bonus, it would be a gamble that eventually becomes a complete waste of a feat, because once your Acrobatics skill is +14 or higher your enemies never have any reason to let you use it.

Anyway, tumbling past someone doesn't mean that they tried to hit you and you dodged it - if it did they wouldn't be allowed to make any more AoOs whether or not they made an attack roll. Tumbling past someone means that you put yourself in a position while moving that would prevent your enemy from hitting you even if they wanted to, and presumably Acrobatic Strike's bonus comes from the fact that you're somersaulting over someone's head, not the fact that you're somersaulting over someone's head as they ineffectually paw at you.

[Fresh Ninja]

Acrobatic Strike is the Yoda fighting style. It's hitting someone seemingly at once from three impossible directions while also somersaulting over their head.

The downside of Acribatic Strike is that you're exposing yourself to multi-attack specialists and other types of "trade movement for attack" builds, as you have to take your move action before you attack and can't use it to withdraw out of melee range.

You get your +5 bonus and a single attack; the other guy gets his Triple Attack or triggers his aiming-based cascade of feats and talents.

Also, unless you invest in 2 other talents, one of which is a lightsaber form taking up a highly valuable Jedi Knight talent slot, you'll be moving at half speed compared to the characters who aren't tumbling.

In Saga, you have many builds that can inflict massive damage, but each one requires a major investment of character building blocks.

[Skywalker]

Acrobatic Strike is a strange bird. It gives a HUGE bonus (an easy +5 in a game where you have to struggle for every other +1), but it makes no sense that enemies can nullify it completely by just going 'well, the moment I see someone tumbling towards me, I won't AoO them'.

I agree. Our group rules that provided an AoO is provoked (the opponent must be able to make an AoO) then Acrobatic Strike works as listed.

However, I have seen others who have taken as far as I originally said, which IMO is too far.

[Epoch]

Lightsabre Defense and its follow-up talents make blocking weaker.

Well, that assumes that somebody would take Lightsaber Defense, and you have to ask why. It's awful. Speaking of blowing your Talents on bad defensive abilities.

Overall, Block and Deflect can certainly be useful, but I'm not sure that they're the best bang for the buck defensively.

I think they're awfully good, assuming that your game doesn't live entirely in the upper levels. Even if you're only successfully Blocking/Deflecting on a 16+ roll, that still blows away 25% of all the damage that comes at you, which is nothing to sneeze at. Or think of getting Block and Deflect as your license not to have to pump your best stat into Dexterity. Get Strength instead, and save yourself the Weapon Finesse and Ataru picks -- so you spend 2 low-level talents, and save 1 low-level feat and one mid-to-high level talent. Not a bad trade -- maybe even a good one, as at mid to high levels, it's harder to get feats than talents, and because this way your damage doesn't suffer from levels 1-7.

It's worthwhile to note that despite the much-hyped deal about skills starting high and growing slowly, at level 10, your max BAB is +10, your defenses are 20 plus class and attribute bonuses, and your Trained, Focused UTF is at +15 before we even glance at your Charisma. It shouldn't be hard to get lots of use out of Block and Deflect for most of the game.

[Victim]

Well, that assumes that somebody would take Lightsaber Defense, and you have to ask why. It's awful. Speaking of blowing your Talents on bad defensive abilities.


I dunno. I mostly just mentioned them for completeness' sake; no one has shown any interest in taking in my group either. Maybe if someone was looking at some of the Lightsabre forms that improve it? It still doesn't seem like a good road to go, though.

If someone was trying to stack every possible defense boost... They still probably wouldn't be a good buy.

[Epoch]

I dunno. I mostly just mentioned them for completeness' sake; no one has shown any interest in taking in my group either. Maybe if someone was looking at some of the Lightsabre forms that improve it? It still doesn't seem like a good road to go, though.

Yeah, unfortunately both the forms that improve it tie you to awful fighting styles. You've got the one that says, "You can only use one lightsaber, but, also, you don't get to double your Str or Dex for damage," and the even worse one that says, "Hey! Want to use two lightsabers? Want to get a bonus which is incompatible with taking a full-round action -- full attacks being the only conceivable purpose for using two lightsabers?"

Even if you just received a flat bonus to Reflex Defense regardless of situation, I don't think that Lightsaber Defense would be worthwhile. With all the stipulations on it, it's just atrocious.

Shame, 'cause I think it's a pretty neat concept. Maybe if the bonus were +2 instead of +1.

[Ferrus Animus]

I don't mind long climatic battles, but I'd like them at low-levels too (where combats are way too quick and random), and I'd rather "long" not mean "hitpoints are suddenly irrelevant and you're basically using a Wound system from a White Wolf game" at later levels.

Oh, they're not irrelevant. Because the only way to restore them is a single force power.
Damage dealt brings you closer to death.
The condition track might just be faster (or not).


There is some debate on this at the moment. Acrobatic Strike seems mostly designed to open up the defences of someone who is engaged in melee with you. As such, if you cannot provoke an Attack of Opportunity (you have a blaster rifle) then they cannot get the bonus. I have seen a number of people also say that it is possible to avoid Acrobatic Strike by electing not to take an attack of opportunity. This seems reaosnable (and pretty cool) to me.


I don't know about this discussion, but the book paints a clear picture to me:
Threatened area: Someone could make an AoO into this space.
Tumble: Use when moving through a threatened area.
Acrobatic Strike: Get bonus after tumbling.

[Juriel]

I agree. Our group rules that provided an AoO is provoked (the opponent must be able to make an AoO) then Acrobatic Strike works as listed.
Nitpick, the Tumble check ensures an AoO is NOT provoked. I think you mean threatened area.

Anyway, the trouble with your treatment of it is that a person with a blaster rifle is safe from Acrobatic Attack (they cannot make AoOs) UNLESS they are trained in melee combat (have taken Martial Arts I, and thus threaten around them). Then they are suddenly wide open to it. Which makes zero kinds of sense.

So yeah, the feat just seems to be a fool-proof way to get a permanent +5 attack bonus, whose only problem is that it leaves you next to an enemy. Unless you have spent further resources on taking Scout Long Stride and Running Attack.

This is the problem with the Saga book, it leaves things vague on a few things. There's way too few examples of play and such. I'm just glad no-one in our group has taken Acrobatic Strike, so we don't have to make judgement calls on its use.

[Skywalker]

Anyway, the trouble with your treatment of it is that a person with a blaster rifle is safe from Acrobatic Attack (they cannot make AoOs) UNLESS they are trained in melee combat (have taken Martial Arts I, and thus threaten around them). Then they are suddenly wide open to it. Which makes zero kinds of sense.

That's correct. Again, the sense to me is that Acrobatic Strike is designed to open up an opponent's defence by trying to provoke them to attack you. As such, it makes sense to me that it only works on those who can be provoked in this manner YMMV

[Zeea]

Regarding elite opponents, I'm cool with fights between them lasting a long time, but that's not how it works. Fights between elite characters only last a long time at high levels. I'd prefer they last the same amount of time at all levels. I'm cool with needing either a roll of 10 or a roll of 15 to hit an average elite opponent, but I don't like inexplicably needing a roll of 10 at 1st level but a roll of 15 or higher at 20th level, nor am I cool with offensive Force powers having an average +9 advantage over Reflex and Will defenses at 1st level but an actual disadvantage at level 20.

From everything I've read online and in the rules and such, you can't choose not to threaten an area in order to avoid Acrobatic Strike. If you threaten any area, and they make a DC 15 Acrobatics check, they're going to be able to get +5 to hit with pretty much every single attack unless you keep running away from them. Even if it only works on melee opponents, for two squares of movement each round you can get +5 to attack rolls and it's nearly infallible once you have Acrobatics +14.

I removed Acrobatic Strike from my game because there's so much confusion over the use and because a +5 bonus to attack rolls is ridiculous in just about any circumstance anyway. If it was a very rare situation where you got it, it would be one thing, but the guy who chooses to roll around on the floor or jump a lot as his fighting style shouldn't be +5 better than every other melee style. Yoda's style is good, but why should it be the equivalent of five levels better than Mace Windu's style? If it was that good, why would anybody use any other style?

Basically, something is kinda unbalanced if there's hardly any reason not to take a feat. Acrobatic Strike is a lot better than any other melee feat, and the requirements are pretty easy to meet.

[Juriel]

I removed Acrobatic Strike from my game because there's so much confusion over the use and because a +5 bonus to attack rolls is ridiculous in just about any circumstance anyway.
My recommended solution. Of course, you can easily get +4 to hit from Powerful Charge anytime you want, with a small damage boost to boot, and it leads to equal cheese (withdraw with Move action, charge the same opponent over and over)... but at least that has a minor negative aspect to it.

[Ragnarok_Engine]

Yoda's style is good, but why should it be the equivalent of five levels better than Mace Windu's style? If it was that good, why would anybody use any other style?

Basically, something is kinda unbalanced if there's hardly any reason not to take a feat. Acrobatic Strike is a lot better than any other melee feat, and the requirements are pretty easy to meet.

I admit I'm not as familiar with the SWSE combat system as many of the people in this discussion, but it sounds to me like the Acrobatic Strike monkey is giving up damage potential for that large to-hit boost. If you're using AS every round, you must always take a move action. Someone who isn't taking that move action can be smashing enemies with Double or Triple Strike, or getting the extra attacks from dual wielding. Isn't there also a precision-strike type attack that gives you a higher crit chance in exchange for standing still, or am I thinking of a ranged feat?

[Victim]

I admit I'm not as familiar with the SWSE combat system as many of the people in this discussion, but it sounds to me like the Acrobatic Strike monkey is giving up damage potential for that large to-hit boost. If you're using AS every round, you must always take a move action. Someone who isn't taking that move action can be smashing enemies with Double or Triple Strike, or getting the extra attacks from dual wielding. Isn't there also a precision-strike type attack that gives you a higher crit chance in exchange for standing still, or am I thinking of a ranged feat?

Characters using Double/Triple Attack are eating some massive attack penalties. Those feats are not so useful in combat against other high level characters without some serious talents backing them up.

Moreover, as far as melee combat, the full round action (which costs a move and a swift action) required to get the extra attacks means that clever enemies can negate that advantage by moving away. It's not exactly easy for a melee character to pull off his full attack against mobile foes. The acrobatic striker can cancel those extra attacks just by using his main trick. And he has a swift action left over to use force powers, talents, or work on recoveries.

The only thing that gives a higher crit chance is the Vapaad lightsabre form, IIRC. And Vapaad requires Juyo. Juyo only works on 1 attack per round.

[BlackSheep]

Isn't there also a precision-strike type attack that gives you a higher crit chance in exchange for standing still, or am I thinking of a ranged feat?
You may be thinking of aiming for ranged combat. That costs two swifts and negates cover penalties, which don't apply at melee range anyway.

However, you can build up aim into something pretty nasty. My ex-Jedi Bounty Hunter automatically knocks you a step down the condition track if she hits after aiming, and will probably pick up Deadeye at some point to do extra damage as well. There's also a feat that gives you +1 to hit when aiming, and a Gunslinger talent that duplicates (and stacks with) the Bounty Hunter one.
The acrobatic striker can cancel those extra attacks just by using his main trick.
Not quite sure what you mean here. The acrobat can easily tumble away and prevent the other guy getting his multiple attacks, but then he won't be getting his +5 to hit either.

It's a tradeoff, but the decision is largely in the hands of the acrobat. It's much harder for the multiple attacker to deny the acrobat his bonus - moving directly away at full speed will do it, but that only works for so long, and you're in trouble if the other guy has more Surge than you.

[Ferrus Animus]

A melee char has the disadvantage that he needs to stand next to the enemy for a full round to use a full attack. As soon as one moves it's gone.

That's why melee rarely will come to situations like this, because no one wants to be on the receiving end of a full melee attack.

Ranged is another story.

And BlackSheep:
Combined with Dastardly Strike and System Hit you can reduce a spaceship to -5 and a char to -4 in the right circumstances with a single shot.

[Juriel]

I admit I'm not as familiar with the SWSE combat system as many of the people in this discussion, but it sounds to me like the Acrobatic Strike monkey is giving up damage potential for that large to-hit boost. If you're using AS every round, you must always take a move action. Someone who isn't taking that move action can be smashing enemies with Double or Triple Strike, or getting the extra attacks from dual wielding. Isn't there also a precision-strike type attack that gives you a higher crit chance in exchange for standing still, or am I thinking of a ranged feat?
As said, enemies can easily take one step away from you, and force you to move, making you unable to make full attack action against them. Unless you're a melee droid with extendible arms that grant you a reach of 2, at least...

And, Acrobatic Strike can give you okay damage too. That +5 to hit? That's +10 to damage with Power Attack. If your GM allows you to combine it with Powerful Charge, that's a +18 to damage you have going on there, and you still attack at your basic full AB.

[Bahama'at]

And, Acrobatic Strike can give you okay damage too. That +5 to hit? That's +10 to damage with Power Attack. If your GM allows you to combine it with Powerful Charge, that's a +18 to damage you have going on there, and you still attack at your basic full AB.And you do it - once. And if the target isn't dead, they now get to wail on you at point blank range. A good build, a devastating attack, but something of an all-or-nothing sort of tactic.

- Ma'at

[Fresh Ninja]

And you do it - once. And if the target isn't dead, they now get to wail on you at point blank range. A good build, a devastating attack, but something of an all-or-nothing sort of tactic.

- Ma'at

Yeah, like I wrote earlier: Acrobatic Strike is good, but when you use it, you open yourself up to massive retributive effects by staying in melee range with your target.

[Juriel]

Yeah, like I wrote earlier: Acrobatic Strike is good, but when you use it, you open yourself up to massive retributive effects by staying in melee range with your target.
...unless you have Running Attack, in which case you just sail by them and they need to take a move action to get next to you. It's up to the GM to decide if two feats and a (very useful, since it boosts defensive fighting) skill pick are enough of a price for always having a fault-free +5 to hit.

[Zeea]

You can use Running Attack with Acrobatic Strike to tumble past someone, hit them, and then keep moving to get out of their melee range.

Also, the only melee attacks that are especially good with full-round actions (or the equivalent) are Mighty Swing (give up two swift actions, get an extra damage die) and Double Attack if you have the Jedi Knight talent to reduce the penalty. Mighty Swing isn't really all that good, either. Without special talents, Double Attack, Triple Attack, and multiweapon attacks aren't very good against player characters or tough non-player characters because they miss a lot.

So pretty much, unless you're fighting a Jedi Knight, you have almost nothing to worry about if you end your turn adjacent to a melee enemy, because odds are he has nothing except maybe Mighty Strike to improve his attack with, and you can probably take an extra 1d8 damage or so if you need to.

[Fresh Ninja]

There's tons of ways to negate the advantage of Acrobatic Strike:

Don't go into melee range.

Take that one form that allows you to tumble at normal speed. Now you have the same attack bonus AND you can move twice as fast, allowing you to get out of the character's range for utilizing Acrobatic Strike.

Once you inflict enough condition penalties, the Acrobatics skill check becomes non-automatic again due to the penalty to skill checks.

Charge the Acrobatic Striker and then move 6 squares away again, preventing the Striker from tumbling towards you unless he has also invested in 2 other talents to enhance his tumblind speed.

That's just off the top of my head.

Acrobatic Strike isn't overpowered or a game-breaker. It's in line with many other bonuses in Saga.

[Unseenlibrarian]

...unless you have Running Attack, in which case you just sail by them and they need to take a move action to get next to you. It's up to the GM to decide if two feats and a (very useful, since it boosts defensive fighting) skill pick are enough of a price for always having a fault-free +5 to hit.

Note: Do not try this trick on a gunslinger, who can take AoOs without Martial Arts training, doesn't provoke them, and also gets a multiple-attack penalty reducing talent. Especially since you'll almost certainly be in point blank range.

[Zeea]

Also, some people always mention that Acrobatic Strike is good because it reflects Yoda's fighting style. For the sake of fairness, I suggest adding some of the following feats, which are all roughly equal to Acrobatic Strike, and all making about as much sense as a +5 bonus to attack because you tumbled around someone in a system with no facing rules, a mere +1 attack bonus for most things that should help a lot more than tumbling around, and no bonus to hit most people (except those with high Dexterity) when they are completely unaware of your presence.

Samuel L. Jackson is Mace Windu Strike
Effect: As a free action, if you succeed on a DC 15 Persuasion (intimidation) check, you get a +5 bonus to hit.

Han Solo Shoots Greedo First Strike
Effect: As a swift action, if you succeed on a DC 15 Deception check, you get a +5 bonus to hit.

Luke Uses His Lightsaber in Two-Hands Strike
Effect: If you use your melee weapon in two hands, you get a +5 bonus to hit.

Unlimited Power Strike
Effect: If you say "Unlimited Power!" like Senator Palpatine while attacking or using Force Lightning, you get a +5 bonus to hit.

Enduring Strike
Effect: If you succeed on a DC 15 Endurance check for any reason, you get a +5 bonus to hit with melee attacks.

Let's Make Yoda's Style Better Than Everyone Else's For No Reason Style
Prerequisite: Acrobatic Strike
Effect: You gain a +10 bonus to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and Reflex defense.
Special: There is absolutely no reason not to get this feat if you can meet the prereqs.

[Juriel]

Note: Do not try this trick on a gunslinger, who can take AoOs without Martial Arts training, doesn't provoke them, and also gets a multiple-attack penalty reducing talent. Especially since you'll almost certainly be in point blank range.
Umm...that's a bit of a moot point, since that's a RANGED character.

'Oh yeah? Well, Bruce Lee would lose to a NUCLEAR WARHEAD, hah!'

Of course they have range, and won't need to move to utilize their multiple attacks. That's the obvious way to easy power.

[Bahama'at]

...unless you have Running Attack, in which case you just sail by them and they need to take a move action to get next to you.Or they just shoot you - this is Star Wars, and you just gave them safe distance to use that stormtrooper-1 or HBR.

Actually, since using a rifle doesn't threaten, this means they don't get to make the DC 15 acrobatics check that nets the +5 to hit. So against Stormtroopers, Battle Droids and the like the feat isn't as useful as it appears. (Double checked with the book, yep - you only threaten with natural weapons, melee weapons, pistols, carbines or rifles with collapsed stock - normal rifles and heavier ordinance don't threaten, so no Acrobatic Strike).

- Ma'at

[Bahama'at]

You can use Running Attack with Acrobatic Strike to tumble past someone, hit them, and then keep moving to get out of their melee range.But only in a straight line on clear terrain, unless we are spending another feat and some Scout talents and further making this a one-trick pony.

- Ma'at

[Zeea]

There's tons of ways to negate the advantage of Acrobatic Strike:

Don't go into melee range.

Take that one form that allows you to tumble at normal speed. Now you have the same attack bonus AND you can move twice as fast, allowing you to get out of the character's range for utilizing Acrobatic Strike.

Once you inflict enough condition penalties, the Acrobatics skill check becomes non-automatic again due to the penalty to skill checks.

Charge the Acrobatic Striker and then move 6 squares away again, preventing the Striker from tumbling towards you unless he has also invested in 2 other talents to enhance his tumblind speed.

That's just off the top of my head.

Acrobatic Strike isn't overpowered or a game-breaker. It's in line with many other bonuses in Saga.

Those really aren't very practical. You usually can't stay out of melee range unless you're always attacking with a rifle from across a ravine or mine field, and if you do use melee attacks but not Acrobatic Strike, you're at a huge disadvantage.

That ability that lets you tumble for one movement point instead of two only gives you an extra square of movement if you tumble away from someone (because you only have to pay for threatened squares, not all squares.) It's a Jedi talent that's hard to get and the prereq abilities not all that good, so it's not very practical and it will almost never come up.

If you inflict -1 condition penalty on a character with Acrobatics +14, he still has a 95% chance to suceed, and a 90% chance with -2, and if he's at -5, he's almost dead anyway. Once his Acrobatics gets a little higher, that's not even relevant. Dropping someone to -5 penalty is almost as hard as killing them, so it's like saying that Acrobatic Strike is balanced because you can't use it when you're nearly dead.

Charging and backing up would work, though, for the same reason that Powerful Charge wouldn't work with Acrobatic Strike. Tumbling can only be done during a move action, technically, not any movement, and charging is a standard action. Still, this tactic requires Acrobatics to avoid attacks of opportunity, as well as plenty of maneuvering room, so most of the time it won't work.

In other words, Acrobatic Strike works most of the time (I'd say about 90% or more), and with a +5 bonus, that's way too often. EDIT: I mean 90% of the time in a melee fight. Although it actually does work against many ranged attackers as well. A +5 bonus against 90% or more of melee attackers and maybe at least a third or more of ranged attackers is still ridiculous. Oh, and the fact that a stormtrooper with a rifle is immune to Acrobatic Strike unless he learns karate, in which case he becomes vulnerable, is pretty darn silly.

[Zeea]

But only in a straight line on clear terrain, unless we are spending another feat and some Scout talents and further making this a one-trick pony.

- Ma'at

Running Attack doesn't require clear terrain or a straight line.

[Zeea]

My Point: Acrobatic Strike is the best melee feat in the game and possibly the best feat other than Skill Focus (Use the Force). It is better than all other melee feats and most ranged feats and most defensive feats. There are ways to counter it, but even factoring those in, it's still better than all those other feats, which either aren't that good in the first place or have even more ways to be countered. Thus, I argue that Acrobatic Strike is too powerful. No, it does not make you invincible, but that doesn't mean it's balanced.

[Bahama'at]

My Point: Acrobatic Strike is the best melee feat in the game and possibly the best feat other than Skill Focus (Use the Force). It is better than all other melee feats and most ranged feats and most defensive feats. There are ways to counter it, but even factoring those in, it's still better than all those other feats, which either aren't that good in the first place or have even more ways to be countered. Thus, I argue that Acrobatic Strike is too powerful. No, it does not make you invincible, but that doesn't mean it's balanced.And against all this theorizing is my experience playing in one game and running another, both with acrobatic Jedi, and in neither situation is the feat overpowering. The Hutt with a vibroaxe and the charge feats has been to date the highest damaging melee character.

- Ma'at

[Fresh Ninja]

Oh, and another way in which Acrobatic Strike isn't the Bestest Melee Feat To Ever Feat: it's great for fighting single, hard-to-hit enemies, but against a horde of thugs with autofire attacks, it's useless.

[Skywalker]

Oh, and another way in which Acrobatic Strike isn't the Bestest Melee Feat To Ever Feat: it's great for fighting single, hard-to-hit enemies, but against a horde of thugs with autofire attacks, it's useless.

And against multiattack melee opponents, it kind of sucks unless you have Running Attack.

I have to agree here. Its a good feat but I don't think its unbalanced. Most of the examples people here use require the combination of one or more feats with Acrobatic Strike like Power Attack or Running Attack. The thing is with 2 feats you can get pretty scary combos in SWSE. That seems inherent in the system design.

[Unferth]

The Hutt with a vibroaxe and the charge feats has been to date the highest damaging melee character.

- Ma'at

Please tell me you mean a Wookie or a Gamorrean or something rather than a Hutt.

Although the concept of a Hutt charging someone waving a vibroaxe is pretty amusing.

[Reverend Keith]

The Hutt with a vibroaxe and the charge feats has been to date the highest damaging melee character.
A charging hutt with a vibroaxe? Now I know we're talking about a roleplaying game session. ;)

[Andrew Ellis Troubio]

It must be some sort of collective unconcious idea...our GM threw one at us in our game too.

[Victim]

I'd just like to note that Acrobatic Strike and other damage boosting feats aren't mutually exclusive (just somewhat resource intensive). One Jedi I made had Acrobatic Strike, Power Attack, and then Cleave for helping with multiple foes while still remaining mobile if needed. No Running Attack though.

But with his deadly lightsabre forms, I'm not sure that he'd be at a disadvantage versus a double attack/penalty reduction talent build in close combat.

I think the Hutt in our game basically used a spiked chain. Freaking cheater.

[OldKentuckyShark]

Please tell me you mean a Wookie or a Gamorrean or something rather than a Hutt.

Although the concept of a Hutt charging someone waving a vibroaxe is pretty amusing.

In my head, I picture a heavily armored Hutt Soldier, riding a hoversled. It looks a bit like a Dalek.

[Juriel]

Oh, and another way in which Acrobatic Strike isn't the Bestest Melee Feat To Ever Feat: it's great for fighting single, hard-to-hit enemies, but against a horde of thugs with autofire attacks, it's useless.
Unless you Acrobatic Attack one of them, Power Attack turn that bonus to +10 damage, and just Cleave through the horde of thugs...

But yeah, you could do that with Powerful Charge as well, and it takes many feats.

My favorite wanna-try-out build is a jedi with that talent that makes 19 and 20 criticals, and the Fortune's Favor Scoundrel talent that gives you another standard action whenever you score a critical. Run into a group of mooks, roll many times with Greater Cleave, be pretty likely to score a 19 or a 20 on one of those rolls, Charge to another group. Theoretically you could make shish-kebab out of an entire army. :D

[Zeea]

Unless you Acrobatic Attack one of them, Power Attack turn that bonus to +10 damage, and just Cleave through the horde of thugs...

But yeah, you could do that with Powerful Charge as well, and it takes many feats.

My favorite wanna-try-out build is a jedi with that talent that makes 19 and 20 criticals, and the Fortune's Favor Scoundrel talent that gives you another standard action whenever you score a critical. Run into a group of mooks, roll many times with Greater Cleave, be pretty likely to score a 19 or a 20 on one of those rolls, Charge to another group. Theoretically you could make shish-kebab out of an entire army. :D

I have to make this character now. He'll look ridiculous, because a round is six seconds long and the more people he attacks, the faster he's moving, but it'll be awesome. :)

[Bahama'at]

A charging hutt with a vibroaxe? Now I know we're talking about a roleplaying game session. ;)One player has taken to playing one-shot characters (essentially playing the Lando) while his main PC is missing. One of them was a Hutt. And as silly as it sounds, he did dish it out.

- Ma'at

[Fresh Ninja]

One player has taken to playing one-shot characters (essentially playing the Lando) while his main PC is missing. One of them was a Hutt. And as silly as it sounds, he did dish it out.

- Ma'at

You should rig it so that every one of the one-shot characters ends up betraying the party in some way, in true Lando style.

[Lazarus]

That's been my experience, as well -- since it applies to pretty much everything, it's a bit easier to remember it. That being said, I am considering grabbing index cards to slap down on NPCs' character sheets to make sure I remember.

I had at one point developed "NPC Cards" for SWSE, with full statblock area, and along the sides an hp tracker and along the bottom, a condition monitor tracker. The theory was to use paperclips to track them.

Unfortunately, my harddrive crashed and I no longer /have/ it, but I'd be willing to invest the time to remake them if there's interest.

I know I'm intending on remaking my Talent Trees pdf (basically, think of Exalted Charm Tree diagrams. Apply to Talent Trees.) because I'm interested in doing that again :p

Laz