[Lord of the Rings] what are the essential elements of a middle earth RPG?

[vivsavage]

Hypothetically, if you were to create a completely new RPG for middle earth, what would the essential rule elements be to achieve a proper reflection of the books and Tolkien's style? Would it be a class-based system? Would combat use hit locations or something less specific? How would personality traits come into play? How would magic be handled? What about things like doom, purpose, despair, destiny and other more esoteric elements?

[JohnBiles]

Hypothetically, if you were to create a completely new RPG for middle earth, what would the essential rule elements be to achieve a proper reflection of the books and Tolkien's style? Would it be a class-based system? Would combat use hit locations or something less specific? How would personality traits come into play? How would magic be handled?

The central problem of any LOTR RPG is how to have very powerful (Gandalf, Aragorn) and very ordinary (Pippin, Merry) characters in the same group. Elves are simply more bad-ass than almost anyone else, so how do you ensure people can play chars of very different power levels and still enjoy themselves.

The second problem is how to codify magic in a playable way that fits how it works in Tolkein's work.

The third problem is how to brainwash Christopher Tolkein into letting you use material from the Silmarillion and the Unpublished works.

[Araquael]

Hmm.

Basically you need a system that can do Beowulf/Volsungsaga/Hrolf Kraki type action.

This covers your Thorin's dwarves and your Aragorns and your Boromirs.

Then you need a sub-system where with a bunch of hero points or drama points, a bunch of fat hairy hobbits can survive.

You also should make wizard types NPCs (though allowing a "scholar" or "loremaster" type character who can heal some wounds and work some magic PC types would be good. Preferably this type would be restricted to Elves or Dunedain.)

And that's about it.

Gavin

[JamesCat]

I think some kind of 'Determination' attribute would be key to modeling the hobbits.

[BenS]

To read someone''s work who I felt had a slick implementation of what you are looking in to, check out Jeffrey Schecter's Legends of Middle Earth RPG.

http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/Legends_of_Middle_Earth_Free_RPG.php

In this game, the disparity between hobbits and Gandalf was addressed using story points.

[countrysamurai]

I think personal history is essential. Every character in the books have a rich history. Perhaps, like Pendragon, it would add to your characters stats.
Wizards are powerful but spotty. I don't see them as player characters.
I don't think elves are any better in combat than dwarves or anybody else.
Corruption needs to be a major factor.

[Shining Dragon]

Dark Lords, Black Riders, Mysterious Wizards Who Are Powerful But Don't Show It, Elves, Hobbits Who Eat Everything And Can Resist Corruption, Nasssssty Elvesses, Dwarves Who Like Gold Gold Gold, Dirty Steenkin Rangers

[Ineti]

Hypothetically, if you were to create a completely new RPG for middle earth, what would the essential rule elements be to achieve a proper reflection of the books and Tolkien's style? Would it be a class-based system? Would combat use hit locations or something less specific? How would personality traits come into play? How would magic be handled? What about things like doom, purpose, despair, destiny and other more esoteric elements?

Classes? No.

Hit locations? No.

Personality traits are major. Magic needs to be subtle and evocative of the setting.

For the rest, review the LOTR RPG published by Decipher. They hit it pretty close to the mark on all those points, IMO.

However, many of the essentials for a proper ME RPG are tied up in rights issues with the Tolkien estate, pretty much guaranteeing that an official definitive LOTR/ME RPG will never happen.

Homebrews would be the only way to see the most accurate and inclusive LOTR/ME RPG, I believe.

[vgunn]

Hypothetically, if you were to create a completely new RPG for middle earth, what would the essential rule elements be to achieve a proper reflection of the books and Tolkien's style? Would it be a class-based system? Would combat use hit locations or something less specific? How would personality traits come into play? How would magic be handled? What about things like doom, purpose, despair, destiny and other more esoteric elements?

If you would like to take a look at the new version of Hither Lands, much of the issues you have brought up are addressed. Send me a PM with your email address for the pdf.

I know Ambarquenta is going to be very good once it is finally completed and the Unisystem version is excellent as well.

I think in some areas (especially magic) Hither Lands is spot on.

[gmillerd]

Stop using the phrase 'lord of the rings' and your pretty much set. Forget that stuff and use the setting. Suddenly you have a game with a lot of edge to it. You only need to introduce the peoples of the far east and suddenly you have a game that makes Lankhmar look like a planned community.

If you get sucked into the plot of the books your cashed in and there is no escaping it that grind.

[Claudius]

The central problem of any LOTR RPG is how to have very powerful (Gandalf, Aragorn) and very ordinary (Pippin, Merry) characters in the same group. Elves are simply more bad-ass than almost anyone else, so how do you ensure people can play chars of very different power levels and still enjoy themselves.

The second problem is how to codify magic in a playable way that fits how it works in Tolkein's work.

The third problem is how to brainwash Christopher Tolkein into letting you use material from the Silmarillion and the Unpublished works.
Excellent points! :)

1. I would use some sort of hero points or story points.

2. Rules for restraint are needed.

3. That's the most difficult part, I'm afraid. :(

[Claudius]

You also should make wizard types NPCs (though allowing a "scholar" or "loremaster" type character who can heal some wounds and work some magic PC types would be good. Preferably this type would be restricted to Elves or Dunedain.)
Why restricted to elves or dúnedain? Gandalf, Saruman and Radagar are Maiar, not dúnedain nor elves.

[Claudius]

Classes? No.

Hit locations? No.

Personality traits are major. Magic needs to be subtle and evocative of the setting.

For the rest, review the LOTR RPG published by Decipher. They hit it pretty close to the mark on all those points, IMO.
But, but, Ineti, Lord of the Rings Coda DOES have character classes. Having character classes in an RPG is not a dishonor to it.

And yes, it was very close. A pity we won't see a second edition.

[Malak]

I think it should have character archetypes as that's how Tolkien wrote.

It need some sort of fate/story point system so that low powered characters have an equal affect on the story as high powered ones, even if they do not have the same effect on the game world.

I like the idea that the more powerful you are, the more you are 'trapped' by destiny. That Hobbits can screw around as much as they like, but Aragorn has to go about becoming king :)

No PC level magic. Sorry. It's just not supported by the text, really. Middle earth is magical, PCs are not.

It needs some Pendragon-like personality modelling rules. Not harsh ones, but the gameworld really does need to be able to exert real power of a PCs actions sometimes. Boromir had to try to take the ring. Gollum, Bilbo & Frodo had to be corrupted by it to some or a great extent. Sam had to be able to resist it. Aragorn had to try to be king.

Actually to take this further Aragorns better stats could be 'paid for' in game terms by the fact that he has to be ultra honourable. Has to rush into fights to save the innocent etc.

[sim_james]

It should use six-sided dice. Lots of them.

Because I have buckets of the bleeding things from buying boosters of the LOTR collectible miniatures game. :p

Blue six-siders with the White Tree of Rohan in place of the "1" are attractive enough, but I have more than I could possibly need...

[Juriel]

Nazi elves.

That literally, objectively and undeniably ARE better than you, in every possible way. And just way too precious for this world.

[Della]

It need some sort of fate/story point system so that low powered characters have an equal affect on the story as high powered ones, even if they do not have the same effect on the game world.

I like the idea that the more powerful you are, the more you are 'trapped' by destiny. That Hobbits can screw around as much as they like, but Aragorn has to go about becoming king :)

No PC level magic. Sorry. It's just not supported by the text, really. Middle earth is magical, PCs are not.

It needs some Pendragon-like personality modelling rules. Not harsh ones, but the gameworld really does need to be able to exert real power of a PCs actions sometimes. Boromir had to try to take the ring. Gollum, Bilbo & Frodo had to be corrupted by it to some or a great extent. Sam had to be able to resist it. Aragorn had to try to be king.

Actually to take this further Aragorns better stats could be 'paid for' in game terms by the fact that he has to be ultra honourable. Has to rush into fights to save the innocent etc.

Ironically, i'm currently working on a LOTR hack for Wushu (based both on the book and on the silmarillion) that addresses pretty much all of this as its most important features.

Characters can take Oaths and can throw Curses, which are, functionally, the same thing. If you take a Oath or are Cursed you earn a Destiny point (a Good Thing, that you can use without spending to reroll bad rolls, offers some protection from bad Curses, and can expend permanently to do awesome stuff).

If you break an oath or refuse to obey a curse, you lose two Destiny. If you reach negative destiny, you are Lost, which is a Bad Thing, and you basically cannot defend yourself from Curses. But you can save yourself from being Lost if you accomplish a previous Oath or "virtuous" Curse.

example: Frodo reaches Mount Doom, but he wasted all of his Destiny to get there and to defend himself from the numerous attempt at Curse "keep the Ring for yourself" that the Ring throws at him constantly, and is Lost. So he falls under the Ring's Curse.
Now he can no longer break neither his oaths ("destroy the Ring") nor his Curses ("keep the Ring for yourself"). He delays his choice until the last moment, but the Ring is more powerful than he is, and so the Curse overpowers his Oath. He decides, at the very last moment, to keep it for himself.
But when Gollum bites his finger off and falls in the crater with the Ring, Frodo, even if indirectly, Accomplished his first Oath to "destroy the ring", and so his Destiny is restored.

Ah, you use those Destiny points as XP, too. So to become stronger you have to take a lot of Oaths, or be cursed a lot. The stronger you are, the less free will you have.

I liked the idea of using Wushu mostly because it's the only game system in which a party of players can fight against the Caradhras without feeling silly.

I'm enineering this Destiny, Oaths and Curses mechanic to handle most Tolkien tropes, such as Aragorn who MUST become king, Boromir who breaks his oath but redeems himself, Hurin's last stand at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the tales of Beren, Turin and Earendil, and even the creation of the Silmarils and the Doom of the Noldor.

Of course, the standard way to play the game would be to throw canon out of the window and say "ok, from this point on, the course of the events can be changed by the characters' actions", instead of "this is the big story and you're background".

I'm writing it in Italian now, but as soon as it'll be finished I'll translate in into English.

In the meanwhile, please continue your discussion, i'll watch and take notes :D

what would "sell" to you a LotR / Silmarillion rpg?

[Attila ze Hun]

The first thing that springs to mind is that an adapted version of WFRPv2 might be good. There's the potential for lowly characters working with powerful ones (WFRP already isn't innately balanced). It's possible to create both weak and strong characters with the rules (strong characters would just have much more xp and maybe some extra wounds). The system is low powered (mostly), much like middle earth in general.

And there are fate and fortune points to go around for the weaker characters. Only thing I don't know what to do with is magic.

[Pip]

Hmmm.

Here's a crazy thought. Why not go seriously Indy and make a game where you start by detailing the Dark Lord, and the nature of the quest which is needed to take him down. Then you use a large-scale type mechanic similar to the Infection mechanics from Burning Empires to actually play out the quest, with players controlling multiple characters and using some of them to work as distractions to the main focus so as to leave the Dark Lord uncertain as to what their actual goal is?

[Spikey]

Characters can take Oaths and can throw Curses...This is brilliant. I'm just now reading the Silmarillion (started reading it before but have read nearly all of it this time) and this Oath/Curse thing seems to model the stories perfectly.

But when Gollum bites his finger off and falls in the crater with the Ring, Frodo, even if indirectly, Accomplished his first Oath to "destroy the ring", and so his Destiny is restored.Presumably Gollum falls into the cracks of Doom because Frodo previously Cursed him to do so, telling him that his he would put on the ring and command him to jump into the fire.

If you could make your Oath/Curse mechanic model this:
I like the idea that the more powerful you are, the more you are 'trapped' by destiny. That Hobbits can screw around as much as they like, but Aragorn has to go about becoming king

...

It needs some Pendragon-like personality modelling rules. Not harsh ones, but the gameworld really does need to be able to exert real power of a PCs actions sometimes. Boromir had to try to take the ring. Gollum, Bilbo & Frodo had to be corrupted by it to some or a great extent. Sam had to be able to resist it. Aragorn had to try to be king....then I'd be sold.

[Pip]

So, to me there are two questions here really.

1. How to do a general Middle-Earth RPG.

and

2. How to do a specifically Lord of the Rings like RPG.

The first is fairly easy, and can be handled well by any number of generic systems, from GURPS to Unisys. The second is much more difficult, so I'll think about that.

For the "LotR" one, I feel the real core of the story is that it's a journey. A dark and dangerous journey, right into the most difficult places imaginable in order to defeat the Dark Lord not through force of arms, but through force of plot-device ;) Throughout the Dark Lord's forces outnumber you, and outpower you. You can't win in a direct confrontation at pretty much any point.

It's a story about repeated tactical failures in order to achieve the chance of success.

So we need a game design centred around a quest. The game progresses as one side moves steadily closer to completing that quest -- but must sacrifice more and more of their resources in the process. Meanwhile the Dark Lord is ahead of them at every step -- their only advantage is that he doesn't know what exactly it is that they are trying to do...

[Spikey]

The first is fairly easy, and can be handled well by any number of generic systems, from GURPS to Unisys.I disagree. I think there are elements of setting in LotR that can be lifted out of the particular type of story (a quest that involves giving up more and more as you go) to give a feel for Middle Earth. I think Della's idea about destiny is one of these elements, as is Malak's.

I would be more impressed by a Middle Earth game in which Sam seeing the stars from within Mordor and taking hope from the knowledge that Sauron is a local aberration has a mechanical presence than by another MERP.

I think Decipher's game falls somewhere in between: the magic system is very 'Middle Earth', IMHO.

[Craig Oxbrow]

A system that can handle orc-army-massacring superheroes and liable-to-be-knocked-over-in-the-first-action Hobbits and make them both interesting to play in the same group. So yes, something like Drama Points, ideally tied to the specifics of the saga and the character.

Good and keen players.

No funny critical hit tables involving spatulas.

[Malak]

I think Decipher's game falls somewhere in between: the magic system is very 'Middle Earth', IMHO.
I'm interested to know what people think of my more controversial idea: no PC level magic?

No, I've not read every last corner of Tolkien's stuff, but I'm familiar with the core of it. And once you take Gandalf & co. out of the picture (and I'll fight anyone who says Gandalf is a legit PC to the death with a sharp stick :) ) you're left with no overt magic at all, and a few 'craft skills' that allow items to do far more than should be possible. I'm thinking Elven Rope, Sting & Herb Lore here etc...

Am I missing something?

[Spikey]

Aragorn's healing hands? Stealth hobbits? Elven boats and cloaks? The reason I think Decipher captured LotR magic so well is they incorporated the very blurred line between magic and technique into the system.

[vivsavage]

I'm interested to know what people think of my more controversial idea: no PC level magic?

No, I've not read every last corner of Tolkien's stuff, but I'm familiar with the core of it. And once you take Gandalf & co. out of the picture (and I'll fight anyone who says Gandalf is a legit PC to the death with a sharp stick :) ) you're left with no overt magic at all, and a few 'craft skills' that allow items to do far more than should be possible. I'm thinking Elven Rope, Sting & Herb Lore here etc...

Am I missing something?
Unless you take note of a scant few mentions of evil sorcerers in some of the Lost Tales (etc), there really aren't wizards in middle earth beyond the Istari. You could perhaps call Galadriel a wizard, and Elrond probably uses some magic healing. But I would posit that PC magic users would probably not fit well within the game. If nothing else, magic in Tolkien is so subtle that codifying it would take away from its mystery and, well... magic. In Letters of JRRT, Tolkien stated that Men could not learn magic, although this is contradicted a few times (the Mouth of Sauron is a sorcerer and the Numeneoreans crafted magical weapons).

[Malak]

Aragorn's healing hands? Stealth hobbits? Elven boats and cloaks? The reason I think Decipher captured LotR magic so well is they incorporated the very blurred line between magic and technique into the system.

Aragorn used Herb Lore to the max, granted. Hobbits... I dunno. Other then being small & genuinely very stealthy, wasn't it really the work of Super Elf Cloak?

Just the idea of a 'magic user' in a LotR game makes me shudder. If you are a 'craftsperson' for a very long time in Middle Earth you should be able to craft objects whose abilities exceed expectation. But thats about it...

[Spikey]

Denethor and Faramir both had some sort of psychic powers, IIRC.

[Malak]

Denethor and Faramir both had some sort of psychic powers, IIRC.

Really? Like what? I know Faramir has a pretty accurate vision, but I think that is more of storytelling device than a psychic power. I'm all for people being strong willed or very insightful though... or were you referring to something else?

[vivsavage]

Denethor and Faramir both had some sort of psychic powers, IIRC.
Denethor had a palantir. Faramir was wise and a good judge of character. I don't think they were psychic.

[Spikey]

Well, Faramir had his dream about the sword that was broken ('Seek for the sword that was broken/In Imladris it dwells/There shall be counsel spoken/Stronger than morgul-spells' IIRC) and Denethor, after his first battle of wills with Gandalf, comments (refering to the palantiri),
'Yea...for though the stones be lost, they say, still the lords of Gondor have keener sight than lesser men, and many messages come to them.'In the context, as with Faramir, I'm inclined to take 'keener sight' to refer to insight rather than eyesight.

You can define it as strong will or being a good judge of character but there comes a point where, in order to avoid having PCs with supernatural powers, you have to say that natural powers in Middle Earth work like supernatural powers would IRL. That's why I like Decipher's approach.

[Ineti]

But, but, Ineti, Lord of the Rings Coda DOES have character classes. Having character classes in an RPG is not a dishonor to it.

And yes, it was very close. A pity we won't see a second edition.

I know. If I could have had my way and been a part of the second edition, I would have ditched the orders completely and simply had a master list of abilities, edges, and flaws that anyone could have picked with advancement picks.

When I revised a lot of the characters for the ROTK sourcebook, I realized just how utterly stupid it was to have an advanced character be a warrior/captain/ranger. It was just unnecessarily complex. The only thing an order does is provide a list of relevant skills and order abilities--there are no hardwired order mechanical benefits such as in D&D d20, where different classes get different HP and skill points and so on.

Dumping the orders and lumping the order abilities and skills all into one big pile would make character generation even more flexible than it is already, and would allow for pretty much any sort of character imaginable.

At least that's how I intend to run Coda next time I play it.

[faeriesoph]

I think it should have character archetypes as that's how Tolkien wrote.


No PC level magic. Sorry. It's just not supported by the text, really. Middle earth is magical, PCs are not.

.

PC level spell casting is supported by the text, for instance in The Hobbit the dwarves cast spells to ward the trolls' treasure (one of said trolls also has an enchanted purse that talks) that they have buried, Thorin has the presumably magical ability to speak to ravens and the dwarves have in the past made many magical items. Beorn can turn himself into a bear and speak to animals. The wood elves are able to cast various fire and smoke effects and make their picnics vanish from the interloping dwarves.

In Lord of the Rings we see Aragorn cast healing spells on several occasions, and magical items created by men are seen (the tower of Orthanc and the outer wall of Minas Tirith), as well as the gates of Moria created by a dwarf spell caster. High ranking elves can do more: Elrond can cause a river to flood while Galadriel is able - off screen - to level Sauron's fortress of Dol Guldur with her magic.

In the Silmarillion there's a lot of spell casting by protagonists, Luthien for instance is a shape changer and can put a god and his court to sleep.

[Araquael]

Why restricted to elves or dúnedain? Gandalf, Saruman and Radagar are Maiar, not dúnedain nor elves.

No, but as mentioned earlier, there's things like Aragorn's herb-lore (which seems to be specifically tied to his role and his heritage), and Faramir's "airs of Numenor" which manifests itself as strength of character, his dream vision, his "hearing" the Horn of Gondor and so on.

I'd also rule that the magic that mortal men use is essentially sorcery, and comes with a great deal of danger and corruption. Either The Enemy will spot you, or your very soul is dragged into shadow. So you can have great NPC sorcerers, and some PC scholar types who are in grave danger if they learn too much. It's a bit of an awkward fit, but it works. It also means the PCs have a vague hope of some low level healing or magical support when the chips are down.

Gavin

[vivsavage]

What about physical attributes? Should different races be given the standard bonus (+2 to Strength, etc), or should the races be distinctly different? For instance, all elves are more graceful and dexterous than humans, all dwarves are tougher, etc?

[vgunn]

Here is the way Hither Lands handles magic in Middle-earth

*Sorry about the format!*

ENCHANTMENTS
For those who come to dwell within the
bounds of Middle-earth, they will soon notice
the use of esoteric lore, magic and maybe even
spells. These enchantments can only can only
shape, craft, or disperse that which Ilúvatar
created. It will allow one to command the mind,
Hroä (body), and Feä (spirit): to change; protect;
harm or heal. But it will not allow them to create
something out of nothing. As a substance it is
the invisible embodiment of the Will of Ilúvatar.
The seen world may not notice the subtle nature
of these enchantments at work, yet it is capable
of sweeping the unlikeliest of folk into the most
extraordinary of adventures.
Words to describe wielders of such spells,
lore and magic are commonplace amongst the
lexicon of Middle-earth. There were wizards and
conjurors. Also mentioned were magicians and
the foulcraft of sorcerers. Heard too were seers
and necromancers. There were enchanters and
lore-masters, sages and healers. Some looked to
the stars while others studied alchemy. Tales told
of Dwarven crafters who wrought mighty
enchantments whilst singing in the smithies of
their mountain halls. There were even those who
were skin-changers.
How is possible to place each of them into a
set of defined powers? For instance, delineate the
innate ability of a Beorning to turn into a bear,
yet seldom – if ever – allow him to work any
other form of magic. Placing such terms into
highly specific categories is no easy task.
It must also be remembered that in Middleearth
the word “Spell” or “Lore” does not always
mean magic, think of it as a broad term for a
work of wonder. Some of what appears to be
magic is really lore. This is a learned skill by
which the natural properties of things may be
combined with certain techniques to produce
magical artifacts, devices, and crafts.

SPELL-CRAFT

A Spell is a predefined, verbal invocation
designed for a specific effect. It is the simplest
form of Enchantment. Often times it can be used
in conjunction with Lore or through the innate
magic of the Eldar, Maiar, or those rare
individuals who were Gifted with this ability. The
Doors of Durin, located at the West-gate of
Moria, were just one example. They were
enchanted through Lore-Craft and could be
opened with a Spell. The Blades of the
Westernesse, found in the tombs of the Barrow
Downs, were made with Lore-Craft and Spells
placed upon them.

LORE-CRAFT

Through knowledge and study the creation
of wondrous items such as the Helm of Hador
or the Palantír were crafted with Lore. This
practice of taking inherent qualities and creating
objects is slow, laborious and is quite distinct
from magic in Middle-earth. Lore-Craft is a more
difficult form of Enchantment and there are few
races who have mastered this talent. It is the
Noldor who are among the greatest users of
Lore-Craft and, to a lesser extent, the Dwarves.

DWIMMER-CRAFT

It is only the Elves, Maiar, and the handful of
select, Gifted individuals who are able to use
magic in Middle-earth. Dwimmer-Craft is the
greatest, most powerful form of Enchantment.
This art is more effortless, more quick, and more
complete than Spell-Craft or Lore-Craft. This
capacity is something others in Middle-earth
cannot deliver, for it exceeds Mortal limitations.
It is a sub-creative faculty that reduces time to
the point of instantaneous creation of effect
from thought. Dwimmer-Craft can be combined
with the lesser forms of Enchantment.

SUB-CREATION

The inherent basis of the three types of
Enchantment is called Sub-Creation. This is the
source for the holistic design of Middle-earth
and the manner from which all of these mystical
illuminations are manifested. The font of Sub-
Creation comes in four forms – Creation (Light)
or Destruction (Shadow); and Preservation (Light)
or Domination (Shadow). All Spells, Lore, and
Dwimmer-Craft (magic) will take effect from one
of these four sources of Sub-Creation.

INTENT AND PURPOSE

Though the forms and methods of Sub-
Creation are many and varied, all are bound to
the common themes of Intent and Purpose. The
premise is that Enchantment (in and of itself) has
an open design, neither for good or evil, until
these principles have been applied. For instance,
Lembas or Elvish Waybread – made by one of
the Sindar of Lorien, would have an Intent of
Preservation and a Purpose of healing and
nourishment. Each task is assigned a power level,
which is dependant upon the desired effect. The
stronger an Intent, the more difficult it is to
complete the task successfully. Remember that
Enchantments are subject to the limitations
mentioned earlier; the scope of the Purpose
cannot go beyond these barriers to accomplish
all needs.

METHOD

What of the Words of Command, Songs of
Wizardry, or Runes of Power that are cited from
the annals of Arda? The delivery of Enchantment
is done through one or more of these three
methods: Speaking; Singing or Shaping. No single
method is greater than another; it is merely the
manner in which one chooses to convey the
Intent and Purpose of Sub-Creation.

MATERIAL

Once the Intent, Purpose and Method of the
Enchantment have been determined, there is still
the matter of Material. As mentioned earlier,
Sub-Creation is limited; it cannot merely make
something out of nothing. There are a diverse
range of components which may be required for
any tangible Enchantment. For instance, Moonletters
– the secret runes of the Dwarfsmiths
were written with silver pens and used a material
made from Mithril – called Ithildin.

TIME AND EFFECT

Enchantments are unique; some may call for
one to utter a specific phrase, for others still, a
complicated chant or a lengthy ritual. All such
things do require Time. This measure can come
in nearly an instant or a few short seconds to
longer periods of hours, days or possibly even
weeks and months.
As the range of time for an Enchantment can
be infinite in variation, so too can be the effects.
Some Enchantments are designed to affect a
single being or thing. Others may have variable
effects which are intended for multiple objects.
Enchantments may have a lasting or permanent
Effect. The greater intensity of the desired result
is more difficult it is to attain.

RESONANCE

Middle-earth is a place full of Enchantment.
Often times this subtle nature will echo out from
strong emotion or power. It is a Resonance that
mirrors an action. Just as Corruption and Taint
can cause ruin to an individual, Resonance may
shape the very land to this will. The sanctuaries
of Lothlorien and Rivendell are a reflection of
goodness, while the blight of the Dead Marshes
is a mirror of tragedy and loss.

EXCLUSION

Not all of the races in Hither Lands have the
ability to use Enchantments. Heard most often
are the Eldar and the Dwarves who weaved into
the stories of Middle-earth mystical deeds or the
smithing of significant artifacts. Not often has
the Race of Men, especially lines of lesser blood,
been blessed with the power of Sub-Creation.
Hobbits have neither magic about them nor are
they capable of using any of the three crafts of
Enchantment.
As are the Attributes and Skills limited by
race in Hither Lands, so too does this rule apply
in the art of Enchantment. It must be
remembered that there are only a few examples
of Men who actually worked any of these crafts.
High Men or Middle Men must take the Gift of
x-Craft to have any abilities in Enchantment. A
Gamemaster must also keep in mind that this
indeed a rare gift and not to be given without
purpose if they so wish to remain faithful to the
true spirit of Middle-earth.

CRAFT LEVEL LIMITATIONS

RACE SPELL LORE DWIMMER

Noldor 12 12 12
Sindar 11 10 11
Silvan 10 8 10
Dwarf 9 11 -
High Men * 8 9 9
Middle Men ** 7 7 -
* High Men – Gift of x-Craft Required
** Middle Men – Gift of x-Craft Required

As an optional rule the races listed below
may start the game with these free levels.

INITIAL LEVELS IN CRAFT BY RACE

RACE SPELL LORE DWIMMER

Noldor 4 4 3
Sindar 3 2 2
Silvan 2 1 1
Dwarf 1 3 -

COSTS OF ENCHANTMENT

There are cost differences for advancement in
each level of the three crafts. Some races are
quicker to learn and/or have an in-born, natural
proficiency to work such Enchantments.

COST FOR EACH LEVEL OF CRAFT

RACE SPELL LORE DWIMMER

Noldor 3 3 3
Sindar 3 4 4
Silvan 4 5 5
Dwarf 4 3 -
High Men 5 4 6
Middle Men 6 6 -

POWER LEVEL

Costs for the creation of an Enchantment are
dependant upon its Intent. Sub-Creation power
levels range from one to twelve. A one indicates
the most mundane and least wearing effort of
crafting, while a twelve is most difficult, potent
and taxing of efforts. To determine the exact
power level for each Enchantment there are the
principal factors of Intent, Purpose, Material,
Time, and Effect.

WEARINESS

The formula for working an Enchantment is
the Attribute of Will + the Merit of x-Craft +
d12, minus the Intent Power Level of the Sub-
Creation. If the total of this result is a 12 or
higher then the effort succeeds. Any lower
number will result in failure. All Enchantments
cause weariness which is taken from Stamina. This
loss is equal to the Intent Power Level if
successful, or double the amount if failed. It is a
critical error in judgment to go beyond one’s
total Stamina amount. Should this occur a point
of Will is first burned away and then any further
points are reduced from a character’s Lifeblood.

OUT OF THE FRYING-PAN INTO THE FIRE

AN EXERPT FROM THE HOBBIT

‘He [Gandalf] gathered the huge pine-cones
from the branches of his tree. Then he set one
alight with bright blue fire, and threw it whizzing
down among the circle of wolves. It struck one
on the back, and immediately his shaggy coat
caught fire, and he was leaping to and fro
yelping horribly. Then another came and
another, one in blue flames, one in red, another
in green. They burst on the ground in the
middle of the circle and went off in coloured
sparks and smoke.…’
‘…but this was a most horrible and uncanny
fire. If a spark got in their coats it stuck and
burned into them, and unless they rolled over
quick they were soon all in flames….’
PUTTING IT INTO CONTEXT
In the dire scene described in part Gandalf
created an Enchantment which he then used to
thwart the advances of the Wargs, who had
trapped the group in a tree. Had it not been for
this mystical action, Mr. Baggins and the Dwarves
may not have survived the encounter.
So how does Hither Lands take the Wizard’s
effort and place it into the context of the game?
NAME: Colour-Flame
CRAFT: Dwimmer
INTENT: Creation (5)
PURPOSE: To burn, frighten and confuse
METHOD: Shape
MATERIAL: Pine-cone (or a similar small, flammable object)
TIME: Instant
EFFECT: 1 x per Success Level; opponent must make a Defend
Roll at -2; opponent must make a Fear Test at -2
CORRUPTION: 0
TAINT: 1
RESONANCE: Very Little

BREAKING DOWN THE EXAMPLE

Gandalf the Grey has a Dwimmer-Craft Merit
(Quality) of 8. Knowing that the situation is
turning from bad to worse, he notices that the
tree which they are stuck in may actually be an
advantage. He quickly gathers a number of pinecones
near to him (we will call it five). Using the
Enchantment of Dwimmer-Craft, he sets aflame
the pine-cones and drops them down on the
Wargs below.
NAME – Provides a word or phrase to describe the Effect.
CRAFT – Indicates the type of Enchantment used.
INTENT – This is the source of Sub-Creation and the level
of its power.
PURPOSE – The reason(s) for the Intent
METHOD – Since we are unsure that any Word or Song is
used, it is assumed that Gandalf shaped the flame.
MATERIAL – The pine-cone, naturally.
TIME – Dwimmer-Craft can be formed in an instant and
there is also no indication of it being a Spell.
EFFECT – 1 x per Success Level, Gandalf takes his Merit
(Quality) Dwimmer-Craft of 8 and adds it to his Will
Attribute of 9 and then rolls a d12. He then subtracts the
Intent Power Level, which is a five (5) and if the total is 12 or
above the Enchantment succeeds. Now the Warg(s) can make
a Defend Roll to see if they can avoid the inflamed pine-cone,
with a minus -2 penalty. Let’s assume Gandalf rolled a 7, so
the total is 24 minus 5 for a total of 19. The Warg has a
Defend of 4 and a Nimbleness of 5. The Warg rolls a 6, so
the total is 15 minus -2 for the penalty which leaves it at 13.
The difference is 6 (19-13=6) and at x 1 per Success Level (6),
this is the Vitality lost for the Warg. Gandalf Enchanted five
pine-cones, so the next Warg makes a Defend Roll and so on.
After this, the Wargs will need to make a Fear Test (-2
penalty) or flee in terror. The Enchantment is not evil, so
there is no Corruption. If Gandalf were to continue to use
this Enchantment, he would eventually be Tainted (Enamored
with fire in case) and dire consequences would develop. Once
Taint is equal to his Will, he must pass a Test or the Taint is
added to the character sheet. Taint will dissolve over time (at
one point per week) should the Enchantment not be used
again during this time. There is very little Resonance since the
Enchantment was limited in Intent and Purpose. Now there is
still the matter of weariness. All Enchantments cause a loss in
Stamina. The Intent Power Level is equal to the amount of
Stamina lost. If the Enchantment attempt were to fail, then
the loss would be doubled. So if Gandalf failed, then he
would have lost 10 points of Stamina. This weariness remains
(until rested) and should any further Enchantments be
attempted, then penalty modifiers would apply. And there
you have the breakdown.

Another version of mine:


Using Magic in Middle-earth

Perhaps the most difficult thing to arbitrate in Middle-earth is Enchantments. This is especially the case when a character has been given the ability to cast spells, lore or true magic. It can prove problematic in Conflicts when such characters appear to have a tremendous advantage over another with more specific Boons.

Regardless of the Boon, the key is to remember that characters always play out the Conflict according to the ruleset. Narration in Hither Lands is the key basis for a character’s position in the Conflict. Whether the character weaves a spell, or an
enchanted sword, or some other means is secondary.

Enchantments are form of extended worded Boon, each one specific for each effect and only allowable if appropriate to the Legend (in all cases very rare). Each spell or ability at the beginning of creation has to be bought by allotting a Boon for each spell, but the character must still have at least one Boon.

To follow are a few examples of how such Enchantments work in Hither Lands.
While it is true that the power of Enchantments (limited in all cases by
the character’s Legend) might give a character a narrative advantage—spells, lore or magic are not inherently more devastating or powerful than other Boons. A character attempting an Enchantment still has the same narrative requirements and makes the same die rolls as everyone else. Furthermore, there is no concept in Hither Lands such as ‘spell damage’— only the Consequences at the end of
the Resolution are important.

— Galadriel, Sorceress Queen of
The Golden Wood: Has a Magic
Mirror that may show Past, Present
and Possible Futures.

— Gandalf, Order of the Istari: Has
mastery over fire.

— Sauron, A fallen Maia: Dominate
and Control His Corrupted Slaves.

[vgunn]

What about physical attributes? Should different races be given the standard bonus (+2 to Strength, etc), or should the races be distinctly different? For instance, all elves are more graceful and dexterous than humans, all dwarves are tougher, etc?

Really you can't have balanced races for a true representation of Middle-earth. For Hither Lands we put a attribute and skill limits for each race. Also it cost more to advance in an attribute or skill for certain races. A way that the power levels was offset somewhat was by Courage Points. Hobbits for instance have many more to spend than a Noldor.

[Matthew]

When Steve Long turned in his first draft of Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG, I sat down and read it. This was a very early draft, mind you.

Early on he had a page-long box-text thing that described the heroic virtues in The Lord of the Rings. Why do people become heroes?

It was in the front because, from Steve's point of view, it was central to playing LotR. I think a lot of people, when they talk about gaming in Middle-earth, really want D&D, swords and magic and swashbuckling. Middle-earth in the Third Age is mostly empty, mostly boring, practically and maybe literally magic-free.

People have a hard time, a very hard time, separating their love for a setting with its suitability for gaming and while I think Middle-earth is very gamable on a Macro-level, Battles and Wars, I think it's highly suboptimal on a skirmish level.

Steve's Heroic Virtues were great because they literally spelled out why heroes do what they do in Middle-earth. They showed you What's It All About. And it's not about killing orcs, or fighting dragons. It's about good vs evil, free-will vs enslavement, facist order vs nature's beauty.

I thought Steve's write-up was great. I thought it perfectly framed the discussion. But Steve saw it as purely flavor. Something to provoke thought and discussion. Whereas I thought this should be what the game's about. There should be mechanics tied to them. Adventures should use them. He disagreed.

This was a long time ago. I'm not sure he'd still say the same thing now, I'm certainly no longer convinced he was wrong.

[vgunn]

Matthew, do remember a bit of that as well. There was a lot of stuff thown around while he was working towards the final version. Too bad much of it was discarded in the end.

[vivsavage]

Too bad much of it was discarded in the end.
What other stuff was there?

[Mark Mohrfield]

I think the key to a Middle-earth magic system would be to allow suitable magical abilities but not a magic-using class/profession/whatever you want to call it.

[vgunn]

Steve Long used to post regular questions and debates on the MERP forum and in a google group. Unfortunately I can't seem to locate a link for you.

Here was something that came up in a discussion back in 2001. Not sure if this came back from Steve or Matthew:

Magic
Maybe the difference is in subtlety, in LotR, magic is more often then not something one feels without being able to "quite put his finger on it", it is a part of the atmosphere. Exception made of Saruman and Gandalf, although the first uses mostly his voice. Magic is mostly something that affects the spirit (In the pursuit of the orc horde that captured Pippin and Merry, the Three Hunters feel a weariness that is more in the heart than in the limb) or that represents a contest of will. Magic is intrinsically tied to nature and life(stream that makes fall asleep those who fall in it (The Hobbit), storm on Caradhras, the ford of bruinen) rather than "I'll burn them with my fireball! And after that I'll blast their ashes with my lightning bolt, then, to finish the job, I'll summon a storm during a calm, cloudless day to blow what's left of them to separate places in the world.". The latter sort of magic is almost always found in FRPG, to the point where you might wonder why peasants keep getting surprised each time the forest burns down because some stupid mage just used a fireball to finish off a goblin. What is surprising is the fact they don't take the mage to court "Mage Blofatof, you are hereby accused of Magical Abuse and Being Just Plain Dumb, how do you plead?" .

In the movie, this side of magic is unfortunately lost. For example, take Galadriel's explaining what would happen if she took the ring, in the books, the changes evoked are mostly subtle yet terrifying, in the movie, they border on the ridiculous because of their vulgarity.

Wonder
In LotR, the characters meet some things that belongs to legends and wonder about them or face them but still stays on the surface, not piercing the mystery of these wonders. In FRPG, the first thing a player will do when seeing a creature from another age is "Is it hard to fight? How many Exps? I hope we get some good lootz!!!" (Okay, I exaggerate, but if you can consider DnD a roll-playing game, then I hope I can make my points on that assumption, especially since the goal of most FRPGs is to raise in level by killing, killing and maybe a small roleplaying bonus at the end). There is no sense of wonder, only down-to-earth thoughts, maybe a consequence of our scientific and materialistic society, or from the wargaming roots or some RPG. There is also the tales and legends of Middle-Earth which are more than history tales, but are filled with emotions and interesting characters.

Heroism
There is no denying LotR is an epic tale, at the end, you have the impression the tale is really ended and that major changes have happened. In FRPGs, after a session, you're expecting a new tale from the GM to continue on to new quests and adventures. At the end of LotR, with the exception of Aragorn who has a realm to unite, you know peace is coming, that the foolish quest from the beginning has brought new light into the world. Someone said once, I don't remember where, that every act in LotR has reasons for them, Frodo is forced to take the quest, his friends follow him because of their friendship, Aragorn has a throne to gain and another motivation (Hello Arwen!), Gandalf has been sent to Middle-Earth just for that, Legolas and Gimli are threatened by the rise of power of Sauron and their peoples have always fought the dark powers (more so for the elves, but it is also true with dwarves who fought orcs in their caves for eons).

Storytelling
In everyday life, you judge everything by comparing it to what you know. Therefore, if your character has known only heroic quests, they are unlikely to feel thrilled about "another heroic quest", while those with peaceful and mundane background will feel much more heroic for doing the same quest. In LotR, the beginning, criticized as too slow by many, is mundane and slow, so when the heroic quest begins and the peaceful hobbits, who lived their whole lives in a small town, meet armies of thousands and cities of high walls made of stone and having building the heights of hundreds of meters, the reader feels more impressed and has that epic feeling inside him. And I always personally liked the dialogues, long and with a little something that makes them more meaningful. Long texts, in my minds, allow readers or listeners to imagine what is being said without being pulled too quickly into another subject, this is a strength of Tolkien.

[DailyRich]

So much of LOTR seems to be dealing with the passing of magic and the rise of Man. The First and Second Ages as described in The Silmarillion seem rife with all kinds of magic, whereas in LOTR it's very limited, almost solely confined to weapons and artifacts. So that's the tack I'd take -- magic is fading from the world, so much so that it's not manifest in the PCs, but it's still clinging on to items like the Ring and Anduril and Sting.

[Korppis]

Really? Like what? I know Faramir has a pretty accurate vision, but I think that is more of storytelling device than a psychic power. I'm all for people being strong willed or very insightful though... or were you referring to something else?

Faramir had visions of his brothers death and both Boromir and Faramir had visions that told them to find Imladras. Granted, Boromir had only one dream while Faramir had several ones... i belive that this was because of Gandalf's friendship with faramir, G could have given him some subtle guidance on his natural talent of foreseeing. It is also clearly mentioned in appendixes that gift of foresight runs in Aragorn's family, and iicr his mother also had this gift. So this kind of magical/psichic ability was not unheard amongst the noble houses of dunedanin. Not even in late 3rd age when their bloodline had mixed with common people.
Certain houses of northmen seemed to also have supernatural abilities. Beorn was shapeshifter and propably other beornings of Anduin Vales had also that same gift. There were footprints of several bears of different sizes around Beorn's house after the night which he disappeared which means he either had meeting with other of his kind or he had invited 'real' bears to his home... Again, it was mentioned that the gift of shapechangin did run his family and several of his descendants had also this gift.

[vivsavage]

Faramir had visions of his brothers death and both Boromir and Faramir had visions that told them to find Imladras. Granted, Boromir had only one dream while Faramir had several ones... i belive that this was because of Gandalf's friendship with faramir, G could have given him some subtle guidance on his natural talent of foreseeing. It is also clearly mentioned in appendixes that gift of foresight runs in Aragorn's family, and iicr his mother also had this gift. So this kind of magical/psichic ability was not unheard amongst the noble houses of dunedanin. Not even in late 3rd age when their bloodline had mixed with common people.
Certain houses of northmen seemed to also have supernatural abilities. Beorn was shapeshifter and propably other beornings of Anduin Vales had also that same gift. There were footprints of several bears of different sizes around Beorn's house after the night which he disappeared which means he either had meeting with other of his kind or he had invited 'real' bears to his home... Again, it was mentioned that the gift of shapechangin did run his family and several of his descendants had also this gift.
I think a key thing to incorporate here is that these type of 'psychic' episodes come unbidden; characters seemingly have no control over them, or at least only manifest themselves at crucial moments.

[vivsavage]

Hey Val,
Is Hither Lands finished? Until you stopped working on it (after a hurricane?), I wasn't sure if you got around to completing it. Weren't you working on a new layout?

[vgunn]

Hey Val,
Is Hither Lands finished? Until you stopped working on it (after a hurricane?), I wasn't sure if you got around to completing it. Weren't you working on a new layout?

Still not finished. I wrote a second version which was much more narrative than the original. I am going to take the two and find some common ground to come up with the final version.

I did actually have a group to just recently playtested the original version and gave me some very good feedback.

[vivsavage]

Still not finished. I wrote a second version which was much more narrative than the original. I am going to take the two and find some common ground to come up with the final version.

I did actually have a group to just recently playtested the original version and gave me some very good feedback.
I assume the version that is online right now is the 1st version? Any chance of seeing the second version?

[vgunn]

I assume the version that is online right now is the 1st version? Any chance of seeing the second version?


Send me a PM with your email and I will send you the pdfs. :)

[Francesco]

Would a game set in late Third Age without mage type characters and even Elves as PCs viable at all?

I ask as there seems to be many reasons not to include them, and some have been touched in previous posts.
For the first (magicians), the text does not seem really to support their existence (late Third Age, remember), for the second, IMO Elves as PCs ruin the mood of ME going towards the Dominion of Man, and the nature of Lorien/Rivendell/Woodland Realm seems really to be properly handled only with Elves as a elusive source of wonder.

Moreover, I have played for more than one year a Pendragon adaption of a LotR rpg, and I have felt often a certain awkwardness in putting together groups of Men and Elves. As Pendragon is a game that heavily relies on the passing of time as a feature, the immortality of Elves continually raised questions on what to do when players with a mortal PC would be forced to roll a new character, while players with Elves PCs would simply keep playing their original one.

Finally, it also seems to me that, barring the stories that exclusively feature Elves, Tolkien himself showed his best when telling stories that had mortals as protagonists, with the intervention of Elves as living testimonies of ages long gone, or as a contrast to highlight the virtues/flaws of mortal heroes.
Could this point to the same conclusion as above, that Elves perform poorly as character types?

So, do you think that Magicians or especially Elves are a 'must-have' in a Lord of the Rings game, or not?

Francesco

[Spikey]

Not 'must haves', no: I can easily imagine a game about forbidden lore and corruption in Middle Earth using a system like Sorcerer. I don't think there's any reason to bar characters like the ones that take large, sympathetic roles in the source material (The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings andThe Silmarillion), though.

[bottg]

Would a game set in late Third Age without mage type characters and even Elves as PCs viable at all?

Moreover, I have played for more than one year a Pendragon adaption of a LotR rpg, and I have felt often a certain awkwardness in putting together groups of Men and Elves. As Pendragon is a game that heavily relies on the passing of time as a feature, the immortality of Elves continually raised questions on what to do when players with a mortal PC would be forced to roll a new character, while players with Elves PCs would simply keep playing their original one.

Francesco

Strangely enough, i see this as a feature, not a problem if handled properly. Elves are unchanging, and i can see a feature in a long campaign where the original elf PC is adventuring with the grandchildren of an original human PC. I think there would have to be some mechanic that slowed down the advancement of elf characters (i would love to try a ME game using pendragon) so that the humans got very good very quickly (by elf standards), then got old and died, to be replaced by their sons/daughters.
Dwarfs would have to be somewhere in between. Advance slower than humans but faster than elves.