[4E] Let's talk about the artwork.

[johnnype]

WotC has posted the gallery for Races and Classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4art/20080220a).

Just before 3rd ed. came out I remember the Internet going up in flames about all the "spiky bits" and "bad art" going into the new edition. What do you think this time around?

I see a lot of Todd Lockwood and William O'Connor which is not a bad thing. I also see a complete lack of spiky bits or at least any that could be construed as objectionable.

I think the warforged need a redesign from the ground up. I find their appearance bland, boring and insipid in the extreme.

A couple of my favorites:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111114.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112913.jpg

My only reservation is the complete lack of action scenes. This is something I didn't like about 3rd edition either. Instead of giving us a scene of a mage and rogue battling, say, a fighter and a cleric we get one illustration for each character. Although they are all in dynamic poses I think action scenes would go much farther in getting that 1st edition DMG and PHB feel. To see what I'm talking about think back to the Paladin in Hell illustration or Emirikol the Chaotic. Anyone remember those?

Other than that I must say I'm suitably impressed. Kudos to Stacy Longstreet who seems to be heading up the project as art director.

[tartex]

To me it has a more Palladium than D&D feel to it. I always liked the art in Palldium Games, so for me it is fine. Still I thought the D&D 3rd art created something new, while this is more a less an update. But I really like the new female dwarves.

[Kintara]

To me it has a more Palladium than D&D feel to it. I always liked the art in Palldium Games, so for me it is fine. Still I thought the D&D 3rd art created something new, while this is more a less an update. But I really like the new female dwarves.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/110264.jpg
Surly. Imposing. Sexy. ;)
--
Edit: Here's another sketch I liked. Hey, it's another dwarf.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112929.jpg
Look at that helmet. I like it.

In fact, most of the Dwarves are pretty awesome in that gallery. Notably so.

[Omegatron]

Agree about the dwarves. They're so... Cultural!! That's great! They're not just drunk Scottsmen!


The women are earthy and sexy, and the men look like badass tanks.

[simontmn]

The samples look decent. They don't deter me, anyway. I agree that action scenes would be nice, though.

[ResplendentScorpion]

I like most of the new art.
There are only a few pieces I find objectionable, mostly because the keep going the proud D&D traditions of "Kill me now, please, I have this hole in my armor" and "I'm wearing excessive armor on places they'll never reach, but my sensitive bits and arms are completely exposed".
Also, sometimes the proportions seem a bit off, making a human on a horse seem like a beardless dwarf on a pony.
But there really were some masterpieces in R&C.
edit - Needless to mention, I also dislike the tiefling art(they look nothing like the text suggests, their weapons seem completely decorative and impractical).
Personal faves - hot, redhead, elven witches(warlock & wizard):
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111127.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111123.jpg

[Peter LaCara]

Yeah. 4e has me wanting to play a dwarf for the first time, like, ever. I mean, check out this guy (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111109.jpg). Total badass.

I love the art for 4e so far. I'm having a very hard time picking favorites. This one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111120.jpg) is pretty high up there. I like this one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112937.jpg) a lot too.

[Kintara]

I like most of the new art.
There are only a few pieces I find objectionable, mostly because the keep going the proud D&D traditions of "Kill me now, please, I have this hole in my armor"I just assume that magic armor is fashion conscious. ;) It's certainly expensive enough to be. :D

[ResplendentScorpion]

I just assume that magic armor is fashion conscious. ;) It's certainly expensive enough to be. :D

Hah. Some of it is itching for a random encounter with the fashion police though.;)

[Akrasia]

Definitely better than 3e art.

However, I still prefer the work of Erol Otus and Dave Trampier. :(

[Save-vs-DM]

The female dwarves are so well done that my wife is actually making her first 4e character a dwarf! They're so darn sexy!

[Nokura]

Personal faves - hot, redhead, elven witches(warlock & wizard):
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111127.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111123.jpg

Yeah they're really nice. I just finished reading R&C and that picture of the elf warlock basically says: 'This is what the fey pact warlock is all about' to me.

And yes, dwarven women are officially teh hawt. I'll agree that the tieflings seem to emphasise the demonic features a bit much, but I like the style overall, except the weapons that get a little too 'barbed flame shaped stuff' for my tastes.

I think the work in Worlds and Monsters is even more evocative from inspiring me to come up with a cool game. The landscapes in there of the feywild and shadowfell are just outstanding (this one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/WorldsMonsters_Gallery/111924.jpg) and this one (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/WorldsMonsters_Gallery/111922.jpg)). So I guess the art is doing its job.

Mind you they could definitely do with a Wayne Reynolds two page action piece in there, his picture of Llolth in Complete Divine is one of my favourite 3e pictures. Most of the art is very static.

[Fenris]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111133.jpg

This guy's badass; a sword and shield tanky elven warrior. You don't see them too often. And I agree those rangers look great!


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112149.jpg


Also extremely badass. I love Tieflings. :D

[Mozart]

edit - Needless to mention, I also dislike the tiefling art(they look nothing like the text suggests, their weapons seem completely decorative and impractical).
I wholeheartedly endorse this message. The Tieflings are desribed in terms which would fit the existing 3.5 artwork, but the 'large horns and tail' pictures are just silly. And their weapons are utterly ridiculous.

Other than that, I like the artwork, although sexy female Dwarves leave me strangly conflicted. I know I shouldn't, but I probably would :eek:

[Matrix Sorcica]

All characters drawn by Lee Moyer (I think) have too short legs. What's up with that?? :confused:

[dr. strangemonkey]

You may all call me Mad for saying so, but I really like the Halfling and Dragonborn art.

Something about the Halfling's new square head shape just says, "I stole your shit yesterday."

[Mozart]

Something about the Halfling's new square head shape just says, "I stole your shit yesterday."
Maybe 'Knowledge: Phrenology' will be a skill in 4E :p

[Save-vs-DM]

All characters drawn by Lee Moyer (I think) have too short legs. What's up with that?? :confused:
This is weird, his stuff is usually fantastic. It doesn't quite look like his style, either. You sure that's even his stuff? It doesn't look anything like some of his other work. Normally his proportions are completely spot on.

[blizack]

I really like the look for female dwarves, but the designs for dwarven armor and weapons leave me completely cold. Too geometrically precise and clunky-looking for a race that is supposed to excel at making this stuff - none of it says "master craftsmanship" to me. Also, it makes them look like little bearded mecha.

Tieflings look okay, but yes, the way they're depicted is totally at odds with how they're described in R&C. I imagine that will change by the time the PHB is released. Also, their weapons look like they would snap in half the first time they parried something.

Everything else looks fairly good. There's some weird foreshortening and screwy proportion going on in a few illustrations, though. I do like that there is a bit of a nod to the old school "exhibitionist armor" in some of the art - I've seen some high heels and cleavage on display, and some bare-legged male fighters, but no loincloths or chainmail bikinis.

[Matrix Sorcica]

This is weird, his stuff is usually fantastic. It doesn't quite look like his style, either. You sure that's even his stuff? It doesn't look anything like some of his other work. Normally his proportions are completely spot on.
I may be wrong. This is certainly by him, and those legs arent impressive: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111120.jpg

This is worse, but granted, I'm not positive it's Moyer's work, though the style looks the same to me: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111089.jpg

These are bordering on amateurish, and hopefully not Moyer's work:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/113180.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/113177.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112965.jpg

[Lizard]

I like it, or at least, don't mind it. But then, I've liked the art in every edition but 2nd. I'm not much of an art snob/art critic.

If I have a criticism, it's the same I'd have for 3e -- too much "art direction", too much creation of an "official look". I prefer a variety of looks and styles, saying, in effect, "Your game can look like anything you imagine", instead of "This is how it looks!" I think time spent decided what, say, dwarven armor looks like is time wasted, since everyone's going to have their own idea of what dwarven culture and art is like and how things should look. A wider range of styles, inspiring different ideas, would be superior.

[Kintara]

I really like the look for female dwarves, but the designs for dwarven armor and weapons leave me completely cold. Too geometrically precise and clunky-looking for a race that is supposed to excel at making this stuff - none of it says "master craftsmanship" to me. Also, it makes them look like little bearded mecha.I like the armor, but I agree with you on the weapons. The Dwarf dude I posted has that sword. I don't like that sword design.

[B. Miller]

What in hell are these supposed to be?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/109882.jpg

[devlin1]

These are bordering on amateurish, and hopefully not Moyer's work:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/113180.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/113177.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112965.jpg
These are awful. So flat and offputting -- whoever the artist is, he or she is responsible for the only really "bad" art in R&C or W&M, IMO.

[Araquael]

What in hell are these supposed to be?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/109882.jpg

Deeply inefficient weapons that some modern artist thinks are teh kewl?

[Ithaeur]

These are awful. So flat and offputting -- whoever the artist is, he or she is responsible for the only really "bad" art in R&C or W&M, IMO.
Have to agree about the flatness.

The other pics are quite nice, however; I'm one of the people who actually like the new tiefling designs (although, for some reason, they look much better in the pencil sketches than in color). Dragonborn, as the other new race, have a quite solid design, I think, and the elves/eladrin, humans and halflings are good on their own.

But, as others have mentioned, it's the dwarves who really rock. 3e took a great step forward with the unified "looks" for the various races; it made both elves and dwarves look like something else than "thin humans with pointy ears and '80s hair" and "short stumpy humans with beards".

The dwarf designs we've seen in Races and Classes, however, are simply awesome. They look good and interesting, making me want to play a dwarf. Someone on ENworld pointed out that they seem to be getting away from the pseudo-Viking look for dwarves; looks like a good decision.

[Will]

Those weapons look like someone had a sneezing fit while trying to draw regular weapons.

[Lizard]

Those weapons look like someone had a sneezing fit while trying to draw regular weapons.

For Dying Earth, I created a weapon called, I think, the Very Impressive Sword. It gave you a bonus on interaction checks among people who knew nothing about weapons, a penalty when dealing with people who did, and was next to useless in combat.

[chiguayante]

I may be wrong. This is certainly by him, and those legs arent impressive: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111120.jpg

This is worse, but granted, I'm not positive it's Moyer's work, though the style looks the same to me: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111089.jpg

These two aren't that bad. The first one needs longer legs, yes (the midpoint of the body is the Great Trochanter, or more visibly, the bottommost point of your crotch) but the second one has reasonable proportions. My girlfriend is Filipino and has shorter legs, as do most SE asians I know. It's not uncommon to be out of proportion a little, my legs are longer than they "should" be. My problem with the elf chick is that if she was going to be OOP then it should be on the side of too long instead of too short.

These are bordering on amateurish, and hopefully not Moyer's work:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/113180.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/113177.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112965.jpg

These are terrible. If I turned these into my concept art class I'd be hoping for a C. I can draw better than that and I hope those don't ever see official publication. On the other hand, I might just be getting a portfolio to send to WW if they're looking for character art and this is all they got... hmmm...

[Lizard]

These are terrible. If I turned these into my concept art class I'd be hoping for a C. I can draw better than that and I hope those don't ever see official publication. On the other hand, I might just be getting a portfolio to send to WW if they're looking for character art and this is all they got... hmmm...

Well, these are supposed to be halflings, and thus, have slightly different proportions than humans.

[David Foster Walrus]

Many thanks to Peter Lacara for linking this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112937.jpg) gem. If you got rid of the high heels, it would be just about the perfect aesthetic for me. It gives the subjects a mix of practicality and belligerence that screams PC to me and has a Fahfred & Grey Mouser vibe on top of that.

[Jim DelRosso]

Many thanks to Peter Lacara for linking this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112937.jpg) gem. If you got rid of the high heels, it would be just about the perfect aesthetic for me. It gives the subjects a mix of practicality and belligerence that screams PC to me and has a Fahfred & Grey Mouser vibe on top of that.

Yeah, I think that could be my favorite bit of art from R&C.

[johnnype]

Many thanks to Peter Lacara for linking this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112937.jpg) gem. If you got rid of the high heels, it would be just about the perfect aesthetic for me. It gives the subjects a mix of practicality and belligerence that screams PC to me and has a Fahfred & Grey Mouser vibe on top of that.
Here is the picture for those of you to lazy to look.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112937.jpg
I also like the picture but wonder if it wouldn't look better if the two characters were back to back in a forest clearing or a cavern with multiple exits. And of course enemies aproaching from every side...

[devlin1]

Well, these are supposed to be halflings, and thus, have slightly different proportions than humans.
Well... different proportions aside, I'm assuming halflings at least still have three dimensions. Whoever did the referenced halfling pics also did, IIRC, some kind of drow female which looked equally flat and awkward. He/she just has a very poor sense of perspective, depth, and shading, from my point of view.

[devlin1]

I also like the picture but wonder if it wouldn't look better if the two characters were back to back in a forest clearing or a cavern with multiple exits. And of course enemies aproaching from every side...
Actually, I like the implicit setting: a bar fight gone very, very bad. The spilled mug of ale/grog/whatever is a nice touch that really makes the picture for me.

[Multi-Pass]

What in hell are these supposed to be?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/109882.jpg

The clearance rack at Big Spike's Scribble-Weapon Emporium?

[David Foster Walrus]

Actually, I like the implicit setting: a bar fight gone very, very bad. The spilled mug of ale/grog/whatever is a nice touch that really makes the picture for me.

Yeah, that's the bit that really drives home the Fahfred and Grey Mouser feel for me. I like the whole drunk and surly attitude.

Also points in its favor are the short hair on the woman, her being muscled without being cartoonish, and the practical-looking climbing harness on the guy. The details really drive home that these are people who sneak around, stab folks, and steal things for a living.

The enemies approaching on every side I think is implied.

[B. Miller]

Deeply inefficient weapons that some modern artist thinks are teh kewl?

I was afraid someone was going to say that...

[Will]

Ooo, I have a better comment:

Proof that artists with Parkinson's still have a place in the gaming industry?

[CowboyEnergy]

Yeah, that's the bit that really drives home the Fahfred and Grey Mouser feel for me. I like the whole drunk and surly attitude.

Also points in its favor are the short hair on the woman, her being muscled without being cartoonish, and the practical-looking climbing harness on the guy. The details really drive home that these are people who sneak around, stab folks, and steal things for a living.

The enemies approaching on every side I think is implied.

I agree! Who's the person who did this picture, so that we may demand more by him/her?

[devlin1]

Ooo, I have a better comment:

Proof that artists with Parkinson's still have a place in the gaming industry?
HEY! Hey, hey, hey....

Hey.

[blizack]

Huh. A lot of these pics didn't actually end up in the Races & Classes book. Neat.

Here's the biggest offender of "stumpy legs" in the book: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111092.jpg

Beardless dwarf on a pony:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111107.jpg

Cloak of Leg Shortening and Foot Disappearance:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111108.jpg

Dwarf Gundam:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/113178.jpg

And my personal favorite:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112148.jpg

[JELEINEN]

I agree! Who's the person who did this picture, so that we may demand more by him/her?

Going by the initials on the picture, it looks like William O'Connor. I'd have to say it's also my favorite in that lot.

[johnnype]

I'm a bit surprised we're not seeing more Wayne Reynolds (WAR). He's probably swamped doing all the covers and a bunch of monsters for the MM.

[Kintara]

I do think that some of the artwork is uneven:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111121.jpg
I just can't get behind the proportions of this guy. I keep trying to see if I'm missing something in the way he's positioned, but even accounting for that it looks very wrong to me.

[devlin1]

I just can't get behind the proportions of this guy. I keep trying to see if I'm missing something in the way he's positioned, but even accounting for that it looks very wrong to me.
That's by the same guy/nice lady I was talking about upthread -- the one who, apparently, did those similarly flat halflings. Ugh.

[JasonK]

Wow. Some of that stuff is awkward, but a lot of it's really, really good. I'm biased towards color, but I think this one's my favorite:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112910.jpg

~ jason

[Peter LaCara]

Wow. Some of that stuff is awkward, but a lot of it's really, really good. I'm biased towards color, but I think this one's my favorite:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112910.jpg

~ jason

Hold on a second. I think I just realized that guy is supposed to be an eladrin. In full plate armor with facial hair. That's pretty cool.

[Jim DelRosso]

Hold on a second. I think I just realized that guy is supposed to be an eladrin. In full plate armor with facial hair. That's pretty cool.

I'd assumed he was a half-elf, actually.

[devlin1]

I'd assumed he was a half-elf, actually.
Or a half-ladrin.

[Lizard]

Or a half-ladrin.

Is there a difference? (Asking sincerely)

Do Elrond's bastards get different racial powers than Legolas'?

[Scholar and a Brutalman]

Hold on a second. I think I just realized that guy is supposed to be an eladrin. In full plate armor with facial hair. That's pretty cool.

My guess is that he's a half-elf paladin. He's got the aura effect around his head, and he's a half elf because I think he's the last iconic. Let me explain...


On the first double page spread in R&C are 8 character paintings, and that's one of them. I think they were intended to be the 4e iconics at one point. My guesses for their race class combo is:

Human Cleric (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111106.jpg) (actually identified as such in R&C.)

Elf Ranger (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112913.jpg) (Two weapons, woodsy and green hair)

Dragonborn Fighter or Warlord (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112909.jpg) (Nothing to say which of the classes)

Halfling Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112914.jpg) (In the R&C spread they trimmed the image so you couldn't see him throwing the knife!)

Tielfing Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112912.jpg) (see flames and skulls)

Eladrin Wizard (/www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112908.jpg) (identified as such in R&C)

Dwarf Fighter or Warlord (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112911.jpg) (Nothing to specify the class, could be a paladin but I think it's just a magic weapon)

Leaving hald-elf and paladin.


8 classes, 8 races. I think it's a lovely theory, and thus probably wrong.

[Singing Smurf]

Is there a difference? (Asking sincerely)

Do Elrond's bastards get different racial powers than Legolas'?

My (baseless) guess would be that there is a different talent tree (or feats?) for the different elfy races. Perhpas Eladrin, Elf, and Drow.

-S.

[Ithaeur]

Here's the biggest offender of "stumpy legs" in the book: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111092.jpg
I think he's a halfling; check the ears and compare them with the halfling design pic. That would explain the short legs.


Cloak of Leg Shortening and Foot Disappearance:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111108.jpg

This one, though, appears to be just a human chick with short legs. :)

[Juriel]

Cloak of Leg Shortening and Foot Disappearance:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/111108.jpg
This is one of my favorite pics. And it can double as a pic for a VERY hot dwarf girl, too! :p

[Save-vs-DM]

Well, here's a few other pieces of work by Lee:
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0608/24/eberronposter.jpg

http://www.leemoyer.com/colleagues/img/lg4.jpg

http://www.leemoyer.com/games/img/lg4.jpg

http://www.leemoyer.com/games/img/lg3.jpg

Doesn't look like he has problems with legs to me, except maybe for the first one.

[joe_ care]

I actually don't like it very much, it looks to much like conceptual arts for minis. It's not bad arts, it just seems off to me.
But hey, I still think the best pics for a d&d book are the ones in the red and blue box, by Elmore.

[Matrix Sorcica]

http://www.leemoyer.com/games/img/lg3.jpg

Doesn't look like he has problems with legs to me, except maybe for the first one.
That last one? Somethings seriously wrong with the far leg (compared to the arm fx). Before anyone starts talking about perspective, well that might be it, but then he has problems with perspective as well. :confused:

[Jay]

What in hell are these supposed to be?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/109882.jpg

Left over Yuuzhan Vong weapons designs from the original New Jedi Order sourcebook?

[Dave Turner]

It might shock some to learn that actual human beings walking the Earth today have proportionally short legs. Look at Keira Knightley: she's got a freaky-long torso and relatively stumpey legs, it seems to me. Mathew McConaughey is well-known to have short arms relative to the rest of him.

If you're suggesting that this is fantasy art and the aesthetic ideal is long-legged people, then that's fine. But if we're going to allow that common human variety can be reflected in D&D artwork, then stumpey legs aren't that surprising. :)

[chiguayante]

It might shock some to learn that actual human beings walking the Earth today have proportionally short legs. Look at Keira Knightley: she's got a freaky-long torso and relatively stumpey legs, it seems to me. Mathew McConaughey is well-known to have short arms relative to the rest of him.

If you're suggesting that this is fantasy art and the aesthetic ideal is long-legged people, then that's fine. But if we're going to allow that common human variety can be reflected in D&D artwork, then stumpey legs aren't that surprising. :)

I'm not asking for long-legged people, I'm asking for well proportioned people. I know that some people are different, I have longer than usual legs and my girlfriend has shorter legs, but they are both fairly close to normal proportions. The human half-way point of the body is not the navel like one artist being posted here seems to think but is in fact the Greater /Trochanter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_trochanter) aka, the bottom of the crotch. If you are going to be drawing a person you need to draw them in proportion or people are going to look at it and get weirded out because it's wrong to them. That's why people that have out of proportion bodies are immediately noticeable, our pattern recognition spots it immediately and it bothers us.

Now, if they chose for some reason to make halflings extremely wide shouldered and have long torsos, that's okay, but the humans shouldn't and the elves should be out of proportion the other direction. Otherwise it defeats its purpose as illustration, namely, to illustrate the differences and the norms of the various races so that we then can model our own characters off of it.


On the other hand, those drawing that I quoted where so wrong that even if you fixed the proportions, the flatness of the figure and the ridiculously stiff poses along with horrible shading would have made be rate it poorly anyways.

[The Little Raven]

I actually don't like it very much, it looks to much like conceptual arts for minis.

A lot of it is.

[stahadis]

That armor does not look like it covers much, also I am sick of everyone trying to draw females of any race super hot while the males still looke the same i want a dwarf that looks like a dwarf and his wife should look like a dwarf too and not like a stubby human.

[The Little Raven]

That armor does not look like it covers much, also I am sick of everyone trying to draw females of any race super hot while the males still looke the same i want a dwarf that looks like a dwarf and his wife should look like a dwarf too and not like a stubby human.

But dwarf males look like stubby humans. I fail to see how the female dwarves don't look like dwarves, unless you define "looking like a dwarf" as "having a manly beard, a craggy face, and the inability to determine whether you are actually in fact a female."

[Araquael]

That armor does not look like it covers much, also I am sick of everyone trying to draw females of any race super hot while the males still looke the same i want a dwarf that looks like a dwarf and his wife should look like a dwarf too and not like a stubby human.

Uhm...

What does a Dwarf look like?

If Norse mythology is to be believed (where fantasy as a genre looted them from) they look human. Not even particularly short. Just human. Dark hair seems common and an aversion to sunlight.

So hawt dwarves? I've no problem with that at all.

Gavin

[chiguayante]

Uhm...

What does a Dwarf look like?

If Norse mythology is to be believed (where fantasy as a genre looted them from) they look human. Not even particularly short. Just human. Dark hair seems common and an aversion to sunlight.

So hawt dwarves? I've no problem with that at all.

Gavin

Well, dwarves are the original "dark elves", Drizzt be damned.

[stahadis]

Well what I ment was that a dwarf should look like a croosbreed of a human and brick not just slightly stubby humans they kept it with the males but the women dont even look like the same race.

[Ithaeur]

Well what I ment was that a dwarf should look like a croosbreed of a human and brick not just slightly stubby humans they kept it with the males but the women dont even look like the same race.

Dwarf man (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112930.jpg)
Dwarf woman (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112931.jpg)

They do look very much like members of the same race to me.

[Turjan]

Dwarf man (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112930.jpg)
Dwarf woman (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RacesNClasses_Gallery/112931.jpg)

They do look very much like members of the same race to me.
The male model seems to come with a miniature brain.

[Araquael]

Well what I ment was that a dwarf should look like a croosbreed of a human and brick not just slightly stubby humans they kept it with the males but the women dont even look like the same race.

Once more with feeling... why? :D

[stahadis]

Never mind i am not going to fucking bother anymore.

[Juriel]

Never mind i am not going to fucking bother anymore.
I think the dwarves will appreciate that. Half-dwarves just look weird, man.

[Jack]

Deeply inefficient weapons that some modern artist thinks are teh kewl?

While some of these are kinda silly looking, a few remind me of various war clubs used by certain tribal cultures.

And such armaments are perhaps a bit primitive when you think of the standard D&D setting, but hardly inefficient.

[Nate Hammertown]

While some of these are kinda silly looking, a few remind me of various war clubs used by certain tribal cultures.

And such armaments are perhaps a bit primitive when you think of the standard D&D setting, but hardly inefficient.

they do kinda look like they'd break like a twig (especially the spear)

[weasel fierce]

could we please have pictures of characters that are actually .. you know.. doing adventurer stuff ?

Other than the fact that everybody is "teh hawt" and that theres apparently a thriving weapons and armour manufacturing business from Mattel, its a huge step up from 3rd edition.

Too bad that Elmore and likes dont sell anymore

[Tokezo Tenken]

could we please have pictures of characters that are actually .. you know.. doing adventurer stuff ?

Other than the fact that everybody is "teh hawt" and that theres apparently a thriving weapons and armour manufacturing business from Mattel, its a huge step up from 3rd edition.

Too bad that Elmore and likes dont sell anymore
In the two preview books there are full page spreads of action-type shots. They look pretty nice. Don't know if they're online, though.

[Jim DelRosso]

In the two preview books there are full page spreads of action-type shots. They look pretty nice. Don't know if they're online, though.

I don't think it made the preview books except as a sketch, but I really think this pic (http://www.enworld.org/images/4e/4egreendragon.jpg) covers all the appropriate bases for D&D art.

[Tokezo Tenken]

I don't think it made the preview books except as a sketch, but I really think this pic (http://www.enworld.org/images/4e/4egreendragon.jpg) covers all the appropriate bases for D&D art.
Yeah. That one was a sketch. :)

[Lizard]

I don't think it made the preview books except as a sketch, but I really think this pic (http://www.enworld.org/images/4e/4egreendragon.jpg) covers all the appropriate bases for D&D art.

Dragon needs boobies.

[Jim DelRosso]

Dragon needs boobies.

Don't be silly. It's clearly a boy dragon.

[Ithaeur]

Too bad that Elmore and likes dont sell anymore
Elmore, with a million big-haired elf girls standing around doing nothing?

He's done some great action poses, yeah, but also tons of "standing and posing" stuff.

[Omegatron]

Yeah.... Call me a youngin', but I kind of think Elmore's stuff looks kind of trashy. :( His females all look like girls from 80s music videos. Buxom, big perm hair, and too much make-up. Even the elves... Especially the elves. How you can read Tolkien, etc and get that mental image is beyond me.

His dragons look like anorexic catfish.

[Matrix Sorcica]

I don't know what has happened to Elmore.

His golden period art was/is amazing, I mean look at the covers of the the Basic D&D boxes, but his newer work....? It's like the characters are frozen in unnatural poses?
What happened?

[B. Miller]

Don't be silly. It's clearly a boy dragon.

No offense but I don't care to see artwork of clearly boy dragons.

[David Foster Walrus]

No offense but I don't care to see artwork of clearly boy dragons.

I guess that's where you and Second Life part ways.

[B. Miller]

I guess so. I just prefer them being all rearing and rampant without being...all REARING AND RAMPANT, I guess... .

[Ithaeur]

I guess so. I just prefer them being all rearing and rampant without being...all REARING AND RAMPANT, I guess... .

The correct heraldric term is "pizzled", I think. (The bonnacon in the Tangency coat-of-arms is pizzled gules.)

[Jim DelRosso]

No offense but I don't care to see artwork of clearly boy dragons.

Your fear saddens, rather than offends, me. EMBRACE THE BOY DRAGON LOVE.

[Rockwolf66]

they do kinda look like they'd break like a twig (especially the spear)

Having studied various cultures fighting styles i can say that those do not look like very effective weapons. Give me a Boar spear, shield and Bastard sword any day of the week.


As far as Teiflings go I personally hate the way they are drawn in 4e. In previous editions they were a human subspecies created by crossbreading Deamons/Devils with humans. Aside from a few small Physical signs they could pass as human. Sort of like how Timber Shepards* and German Shepards are related but different Species. Now they look like this horned lizard thing that has little to no relation with humans.


* The Timber shepard is created by mixing a Wolf/German Shepard Hybrid with a German Shepard. They are designed as a Guard Animal.

[B. Miller]

Your fear saddens, rather than offends, me. EMBRACE THE BOY DRAGON LOVE.

Ok, just not on the cover please? Ease us into it, that's not asking much, is it?

[Nate Hammertown]

I imagined my tiefling like Nightcrawler, not like Hellboy. :/

[Stephenls]

I actually like the new tiefling look, from an archetypal standpoint.

Anyone who's looked at Rifts books knows that the idea of playing a demon-looking thing with horns and a tail and maybe wings is a cool concept, if only according to the most shallow and Liefieldian definition of cool. This was never feasible in 3e or previous editions of D&D (barring extremely variant games, thank you Lizard), because playable demons all had huge ECL penalties and anyway, even allowing for playing demons, the ones low-powered enough to qualify for playing at all (even with ECL) all look lame -- and for good reason, as the weaker demons were all designed as mooks. People were not exactly queuing up around the block for the opportunity to play hamatulas.

So the idea of putting in a playable race of almost-demons that look like archetypal demons, with horns and a tail and maybe wings later if they buy a racial feat, is good. If they're not proper immortal outsider demons, people will probably not mind, as long as they have the right aesthetic.

The issue of what to call them is a significant element of that aesthetic, however, and a problem. Coming up with new good names is hard, and largely a crap shoot -- one can never tell when a made-up name will stick or just be forgettable and bleah. For whatever reason, the word "tiefling" stood the test of time. It is a cool, successful word.

Unfortunately, the original tieflings (which I like) do not have a strong aesthetic hook -- by choice, as they're supposed to be user-customizeable. If I recall correctly, the first illustrated tiefling (by DiTerlizzi) had no overt fiendish traits whatsoever, merely an undefinable quality that said "I am hot in a way that vaguely reminds one of demons." They make great supplement-fodder but, like the gnome, are not archetypal enough to be a strong core race -- instead of impinging on halflings and dwarves, as the gnomes do, original flavor tieflings impinge on humans (because they look mostly like them) and elves (because elves are already "humans, but slimmer and prettier and with slightly pointy bits").

So, on the one hand, you have a strong visual for a previously unexploited racial archetype, which needs a name, and failure on the name front could cause the whole concept to fall flat on its face. On the other, you have a great name attached to a successful sub-archetypal supplement race.

In a perfect world, there would be another word just as cool as "tiefling" to give to the new playable pseudodemons. As we live in this one, calling them tieflings is the way to go.

And it could be worse -- they could have called them something new and lame, which would have both ruined them and ruined tieflings (because tieflings would then be playing conceptual second fiddle to a lame core race). The only sure way to avoid that would have been to not include playable pseudodemons at all, which would be a bad decision because, legacy issues aside, "playable pseudodemon" is too strong a potential new core archetype to not exploit.

[David Foster Walrus]

And it could be worse -- they could have called them something new and lame, which would have both ruined them and ruined tieflings (because tieflings would then be playing conceptual second fiddle to a lame core race). The only sure way to avoid that would have been to not include playable pseudodemons at all, which would be a bad decision because, legacy issues aside, "playable pseudodemon" is too strong a potential new core archetype to not exploit.

It's a well crafted argument, but you're ignoring one thing:

Playable pseudodemon! That's a perfect, old-school name right there.

Aah, I can see it now: "I have a level 12 pseudodemon. He's a magic-user who was trained by a type IV demon."

D&D really does walk a fine line between clear out-of-game names and evocative but opaque implied setting names.

[Stephenls]

It's a well crafted argument, but you're ignoring one thing:

Playable pseudodemon! That's a perfect, old-school name right there.

Aah, I can see it now: "I have a level 12 pseudodemon. He's a magic-user who was trained by a type IV demon."

D&D really does walk a fine line between clear out-of-game names and evocative but opaque implied setting names.

Pseudodemon is perfectly old-school in the same way that art that relentnessly reinforces the idea that your PC is not allowed to look cool is perfectly old-school. Calling them peudodemons would perfectly accomplish the goal of reminding players (every time they look at their character sheets) that they're not being allowed to play genuine demons, and are being made to settle for diet demons instead.

[David Foster Walrus]

Pseudodemon is perfectly old-school in the same way that art that relentnessly reinforces the idea that your PC is not allowed to look cool is perfectly old-school. Calling them peudodemons would perfectly accomplish the goal of reminding players (every time they look at their character sheets) that they're not being allowed to play genuine demons, and are being made to settle for diet demons instead.

I think the tone of my post was not clear; it was facetious. I'm having a fight with insomnia right now, and I'm not winning.

D&D is half-generic in the weird way that it has a half-shaped implied setting that is meant to be adapted to a number of fleshed out setting with a wide variety of tones. Thus, a silly name like Melf's Acid Arrow comes burdened with Melf and frequently strikes a false note, but Power Word: Blind has a nifty flavor* that tastes great with nearly everything. Like I said, a fine line. Some of the more workmanlike game terms of earlier editions like magic user don't sound very good in character, and I share a preference for the AFAICT recentish trend of making mechanical terms usable and known in game.

*with implications of a transcendant language where words = power. I can't think of the name for that sort of magical tradition right now, I'm afraid.

[Stephenls]

I think the tone of my post was not clear; it was facetious. I'm having a fight with insomnia right now, and I'm not winning.

I'm having the same fight, with the same success. When I post tired, I'm confrontational and offensive. See also my hostile, elitist horror movie rant (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=8527550#post8527550).

Sorry.

D&D is half-generic in the weird way that it has a half-shaped implied setting that is meant to be adapted to a number of fleshed out setting with a wide variety of tones. Thus, a silly name like Melf's Acid Arrow comes burdened with Melf and frequently strikes a false note, but Power Word: Blind has a nifty flavor* that tastes great with nearly everything. Like I said, a fine line. Some of the more workmanlike game terms of earlier editions like magic user don't sound very good in character, and I share a preference for the AFAICT recentish trend of making mechanical terms usable and known in game.

*with implications of a transcendant language where words = power. I can't think of the name for that sort of magical tradition right now, I'm afraid.

This is a good point. It's very pointy.

[David Foster Walrus]

I'm having the same fight, with the same success. When I post tired, I'm confrontational and offensive. See also my hostile, elitist horror movie rant (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=8527550#post8527550).

Sorry.

Sorry, nothing. It's hostile, elitist rants that keep me posting here instead of putting in a DVD.

This is a good point. It's very pointy.

Many thanks. You are, as usual, incisive in your own comments.

Implied setting is a funny thing, and the more I think about it, the more I like it as the apex of gaming's super duper postmodern nature. In a text that is explicitly a tool for generating other texts in another medium, you can't get away with avoiding the notion that a text's meaning comes only from interpretations, and leaving gaps that need to be fanwanked to create a whole setting further forces the reader to own the process of interpretation.

Whoo boy, that's some messy prose.

[Peter LaCara]

People worried about a lack of action shots should get a load of this:

A two page spread from the PHB (http://flickr.com/photos/mikeshea/2301353896/sizes/o/in/set-72157604010418608/)

[Nokura]

People worried about a lack of action shots should get a load of this:

A two page spread from the PHB (http://flickr.com/photos/mikeshea/2301353896/sizes/o/in/set-72157604010418608/)

Now that's a trap!

I like that a lot - its good to see the chapter opening pages a little more lively than the 3.5 ones, which never worked for me.

[Haecceity]

People worried about a lack of action shots should get a load of this:

A two page spread from the PHB (http://flickr.com/photos/mikeshea/2301353896/sizes/o/in/set-72157604010418608/)

Why is Rambo there in the background, and why does he have a flamethrower?

[JasonK]

Why is Rambo there in the background, and why does he have a flamethrower?
I can't answer the first part of your question, but the second part is pretty well answered by the fact that it's Rambo. :)

~ jason

[FallenTabris]

I don't see why all the tieflings look like Hellboy. Almost makes me want to gift a tiefling PC with a magic object called Stone Hand of Hell. That and make a little chart of horn and tail styles for my players to roll/pick from. Might be fun to have a ethic group of tieflings with antlers instead of ram horns.

I am really liking the dwarves new style. Very cut edge and blocky on the gear they wear. I don't think the dwarven women are the hawt, though I'd certainly buy one some ale. It inspires me to have the mountain dwellers play a bigger part in the homebrew setting I'm writing up.