Non-Class, Non-Point Buy d20?

[Akodo Daimyo]

Are there any non-class based, non-point buy "organic" systems ala BRP, etc. for d20?

[Turloigh]

While I'm not sure if I understand the question, there is the d20 edition of Call of Cthulhu. It has only two very similar classes ("offensive" and "defensive" in regard to attack bonuses and saving throws, IIRC). But basic abilities are determined the usual way, i.e. per die roll. Does this help?

[Akodo Daimyo]

While I'm not sure if I understand the question, there is the d20 edition of Call of Cthulhu. It has only two very similar classes ("offensive" and "defensive" in regard to attack bonuses and saving throws, IIRC). But basic abilities are determined the usual way, i.e. per die roll. Does this help?

Hmm, nor really what I meant.

Perhaps I should clarify:

I am curious if there are any d20 derived games that are neither class-based (like D&D 3.x) or point-buy (ala Mutants and Masterminds) and use an "organic" skill system (in the vein of Runequest) where skills improve as you use them.

[Master Of Desaster]

You could use my homebrew ;)

But it uses a d10 as main random-number-generator. You can make some choices, but there are only 4 choices (among ~20) you can make that actually can be considered point buy. Unfortunately for you: it's written in Germany and I don't have the time right now to translate those 50 pages (including various tables, but not any monsters and it requires you to be able to gm as there is no documentation available on that topic)

[Akodo Daimyo]

You could use my homebrew ;)

But it uses a d10 as main random-number-generator. You can make some choices, but there are only 4 choices (among ~20) you can make that actually can be considered point buy. Unfortunately for you: it's written in Germany and I don't have the time right now to translate those 50 pages (including various tables, but not any monsters and it requires you to be able to gm as there is no documentation available on that topic)

Incidentally, I'm writing my own homebrew, which is what prompted the question. :)

I'm not looking for something to play, just curious as to what has been done in a similar vein before.

[Turloigh]

I am curious if there are any d20 derived games that are neither class-based (like D&D 3.x) or point-buy (ala Mutants and Masterminds) and use an "organic" skill system (in the vein of Runequest) where skills improve as you use them.
Oh, I see. I don't believe such a thing exists.

Never mind the classes... but d20-based games will usually measure experience in levels, and I don't see levels working with "organic" skill growth.

You could, theoretically, create a game system with BRP/RQ-esque skill improvement that works completely independent from the level-dependent benefits, whatever they are (such as attack bonuses, saves, and hit points). But then, that would be a strange beast, one that I have never seen nor heard of.

But if you want skills to increase with levels... and also want skills to increase independently of levels... well, I guess that way lies madness. ;)

[EarthsShadow]

I've never heard of such a game, why, that would be very inventive to see something like this...

no classes, and no point buy... however are characters made...

the only way characters could be made is via templates, prepackaged sets of abilities and skills that the character gets. But how would you be able to customize them so each player can really decide that what they have is different than another who picks the same template???

[Nelzie]

I've never heard of such a game, why, that would be very inventive to see something like this...

no classes, and no point buy... however are characters made...

the only way characters could be made is via templates, prepackaged sets of abilities and skills that the character gets. But how would you be able to customize them so each player can really decide that what they have is different than another who picks the same template???

WEG d6 does this "inventive" thing in which you speak of with Templates and methods to tweak characters to set two identical templates apart.

Other than the use of a d20 and I'd assume the 6 "core" attributes and maybe AC, Inflating Hit points (possibly), I'd have trouble seeing such a game as "d20".

[Justin D. Jacobson]

My long-in-development Bullseye (http://www.bluedevilgames.com/bullseye) meets your criteria. It uses the core d20 mechanic but little to nothing else from the original. It is not point-buy but uses a bonus-selection system similar to SotC's aspect system.

FYI: It's about 90% developed and about 20% uploaded to the wiki.

[Dorsai]

Core Elements (http://www.zombienirvana.com/core/CEToolbox.PDF) (link is directly to pdf) is a very stripped-down basic D20 game with no classes or point buy (although it has a point buy optional rule). It is level-based, and skill improvement is by skill points like regular D&D, but a slight house rule could change that. A couple of ideas:

1) Keep track of which skills you use and only allow those skills to be improved when someone levels up, or only allow a number of skill points = the number of times the skill was used (so if you only picked one lock you can only increase that skill by 1)

2) Keep track of how many times each skill is used successfully; after a specified number of successful skill uses, allow a chance to improve that skill (similar to RQ)

[Master Of Desaster]

Incidentally, I'm writing my own homebrew, which is what prompted the question. :)

I'm not looking for something to play, just curious as to what has been done in a similar vein before.

Well, I started modding my D&D at the beginning of 2007. We didn't play that often, so a lot of things (at lvl 3 to 5) especially skills were a bit many and a bit in a way that nobody could actually remember their uses ...

That was the beginning. Then I was influenced by some good Ideas from Shadowrun and from Starwars Saga Edition. True20 might show some similarities as well.

Now you got 7 stats (STR/DEX/CON, Intuition, Logic, Will and Awareness). Some more complex derivations give you HP. there are also 3 defenses (Reflex,Damage Treshold and Social) they replace the 5 things in D&D (and Dmg. Treshold from True20/SWSE) (grouped as AC & Ref, Fort & DmgTreshold , Will Safe & Sense Motive). There is also a Damage Tracker (otherwise the name Dmg. Treshold would be a bad choice) and there are HP.

Skills are like D&D 3.x, but in granularity there are only 6 levels from untrained to absolute mastery (and some feats that give you a reroll and/or an extra die to roll - reducing your risk of fumble as well).

There is magic. But hardly any spell is more complex then what you find in the shortdescription of your D&D 3.x Spelllist. E.g:

Heal
Healing heals 1/3 of your Spellcasting roll HP (standard rounding mechnics) or improves your targets condition by 1d3+1 levels in physical or mental condition (your choice).

And that is one of the more complex spells ;)

[committed hero]

I would do something like Wushu, Risus, or other games that define characters with a list of descriptive traits plus a rating. Skill checks would use these plus ability score modifiers, and combat would probably go similarly. This would also tone down escalating hit points, if that was your thing.

[Akodo Daimyo]

I would do something like Wushu, Risus, or other games that define characters with a list of descriptive traits plus a rating.

I don't believe those games are D20.:)

[langeweile]

I definetely want to point to True20 again.
Yes, by the book it has still roles, but those are trimmed down to three. Progression is essentially 1) Choose focus on combat (= Warrior), skill (= Expert) or supernatural (= Adept) 2) Pick skills 3) Pick a feat. You don't have class features or anything and roles only guide progression of numeric values - you customise your character and pick the cool stuff via those feats.
IMO that's as close to no classes but still no point buy as you can get. The 2nd print with the core rules and the companion all-in-one will soon come out.

[committed hero]

I don't believe those games are D20.:)

True, but it would be easy to port the idea over to the d20 system.

Want to fix a car? If you have a relevant trait, roll a d20 + that rating + the relevant ability modifier and compare to a DC. That's d20.

If you wanted to really streamline things, you could even leave out feats, although I would keep them in as an alternative to leveling up.