About Linking Stats and Skill :

[NPC Alban]

The game system I recently designed use a Stat + Skill system.

There are only 8 stats and 8 skills. Stats range from 3 to 8 for a human, and skills from 0 to 20 (for VERY experienced characters), and you roll a d20 under the sum of a stat and a skill.

But I also use what I will call a "training" System. I mean that if a character wants to use a skill in a way he has not been trained in, his chances will be halved.

The trainings he received come from his profession, while his skills reflect his personal experiences

With this system, I am able to handle quite well the fact that a character that is very skilled in one form of fighting will be more efficient than the mundane man in a form he never used.

[Andrew Martin]

So how is your system better than using, say, Fudge or Fuzion? :)

Did you also realise that for maximum attribute of 8 plus maximum skill of 20, that the D20 roll always succeeds. Is this acceptable for your game's setting? This means automatic 100% success for every action that comes under this skill, no matter what the opposition does.

> With this system, I am able to handle quite well the fact that a character that is very skilled in one form of fighting will be more efficient than the mundane man in a form he never used.

Wouldn't it be easier to simply have the:
"character that is very skilled in one form of fighting"
having a high number in one fighting skill, and:
"the mundane man in a form he never used"
having a zero skill in this fighting skill? This seems to me to model the situation better.

By the way, what's the setting? Does the mechanics which you describe here match the setting in every way?

[Patrick Chipman]

It's all in the interpretation and world rules. A dice mechanic/core resolution mechanic cannot, except in cases like Deadlands, do much to enforce a specific feel that matches the setting. Of course, a CRM in which failure is common adds grit, and one in which failure is rare adds four-color heroism, but besides that, the interpretation rules, which change the results of the CRM into usable, "real world" events, and the world rules, which influence the interpretation rules to produce results more appropriate to the setting, are the source of all of the setting-related flavor in a game.

Here's a case in point. D&D3's (d20 System) core resolution mechanic is 1d20 + Skill + Attribute vs. Variable Difficulty. This, in and of itself, adds no flavor to the game. However, when you add the interpretation rules, which consist of sample difficulties, the combat system, and the various skill descriptions, you get a system that is biased toward heroic actions -- primarily due to a lack of rules like wound penalties and quick kills. When you finally tack on the world rules, which in this case would include the feats list, weapon and armor charts, and spells, you end up with something approximating a fantasy game.

So, IMHO, the "flavor" of a system insofar as it supports a particular setting is tied up in the secondary rules of the game, not the core resolution mechanic(s). Of course, if the game has no interpretation or world rules, there's a serious problem with system/setting dichotomy. ;)

[Andrew Martin]

Does anyone remember Jared's post about the universal mechanic? :D

[NPC Alban]

Originally posted by Andrew Martin
So how is your system better than using, say, Fudge or Fuzion? :)



I won't say it's better, it's only a matter of taste.

Also, you can imagine to use the system with beginners, without using "trainings". So they only have to handle 8 stats and 8 skills.



Did you also realise that for maximum attribute of 8 plus maximum skill of 20, that the D20 roll always succeeds. Is this acceptable for your game's setting? This means automatic 100% success for every action that comes under this skill, no matter what the opposition does.



In fact, even if the maximum level is 20, only a very few humans will go to 11 or more.

Also, if you encounter opposition from, the die result will have to be higher than either a value fixed by the GM or another Character's die result. In both cases, the Success Margin will replace the die result for appreciation of result.

Example 1
If Alex tries to hit a very far opponent, the GM might ask him to roll under his Dexterity + Shoot AND over 5. If he rolls 8, it will be the same thing as hitting his target at short range with a roll of 3.

Example 2
if A rolls 9 with Stat + Skill = 12 and B rolls 13 with Stat+Skill = 14 in an armwrestling contest, B is the winner with a success Margin of 3 (the difference between their respective rolls)

There is also a rule for trying to make higher results while increasing the difficulty of a task. You simply add a number (max = skill/2) to your die Roll.

Example 3
If A wants to achieve a better result while armwrestling with B, he can choose to add 3 to his die roll. If he rolls 8, his die roll will be modifed to 11. It means that B will have to roll 13 or 14 to win.



> With this system, I am able to handle quite well the fact that a character that is very skilled in one form of fighting will be more efficient than the mundane man in a form he never used.

Wouldn't it be easier to simply have the:
"character that is very skilled in one form of fighting"
having a high number in one fighting skill, and:
"the mundane man in a form he never used"
having a zero skill in this fighting skill? This seems to me to model the situation better.



Sorry, I was not clear :

I meant that if both characters never used the form of combat, the character with higher degree of overall skill in fighting will be more preficient than the other, even if he never trained in the skill specific to the combat form.



By the way, what's the setting? Does the mechanics which you describe here match the setting in every way?



This the basis of the basic system. So it can be used for every aspect of every setting.

Example 5:
In the setting I designed this system for (some kind of Dark Fantasy setting), "Magic" is obtained by collecting "Mana" and changing it into another kind of Energy.
The first step is Mana Collection. It requires an Intuition+"Magic Skill" roll. The Success Margin is the number of Mana points he collects.

[NPC Alban]

hum... I didn't notice the "[ b ]" anchor at the beginning of the quote...

[Misguided]

Originally posted by Patrick Chipman
It's all in the interpretation and world rules. A dice mechanic/core resolution mechanic cannot, except in cases like Deadlands, do much to enforce a specific feel that matches the setting.

Patrick, I love your posts, but I'll have to disagree this time. Most mechanics may not enhance the setting, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Respectfully,

[Patrick Chipman]

Patrick, I love your posts, but I'll have to disagree this time. Most mechanics may not enhance the setting, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Fair enough; disagreement makes the discussion go 'round. ;) I just can't think of any CRMs that enhance the feel of a setting short of pushing resolution in a particular direction (either towards success or failure) except in "gimmicky" CRMs, like Deadlands. The rules around that basic mechanic -- the interpretation and world rules -- take those success and failure results and mold them into something that, optimally, enhances the setting by reacting in a way appropriate to the setting. When this interaction is out of sync, weirdness occurs. You wouldn't want to run, say, superheroes with Cyberpunk 2020's system, after all, unless you're truly sadistic. ;)

Or can I think of some setting-enhancing CRMs? ;) A game system that uses an alternate randomizer can have a specific feel, I suppose. If you use, for instance, candies for the CRM, the game is bound to have a more juvenile feel to it -- something that'd be appropriate to a comedy game. If you use a very "rules-light" system, it feels more ephemeral and more "open," perhaps, at least to some people.

Ok, so I'm somewhat wishy-washy on this issue. ;) Rare is the game, however, where the CRM (which is just the mechanic that produces a success or failure result for a particular task) is even related to the setting. Perhaps this is a problem with people writing systems before settings, or writing systems without any setting idea in mind to which they'll apply them...

[NPC JSDiamond]

Try granting skill-knowledge some 'hard' benefit that isn't just another addition or subtraction excercise.

Try awarding knowledge with the benefits like immunity from critical failure, multiple attempt ability, or some other skill-specific benefits for achieving levels of a given skill.

This way learning a skill is something to truly aspire to, as opposed to just adding another pip to my die-roll.

Ideas, ideas...

Jeff
6-0 Games
http://www.orbit-rpg.com

[MetaDude]

Originally posted by NPC JSDiamond
Try awarding knowledge with the benefits like immunity from critical failure, multiple attempt ability, or some other skill-specific benefits for achieving levels of a given skill.

I like that idea. I've been trying to incorporate such ideas into my own system. I use a percentile roll to resolve actions, and the crits are distributed equally. This has a natural side-effect of awarding more crits and fewer fumbles to characters with high skill.

In addition, the min/maxer's holy grail of multiple attacks requires skill - pumping up Agility may get your first strike in faster, but you need skill to pull off combination maneuvers.

The simplest and most important benefit - what your character can try to accomplish. If a lock is simple, anyone can try to pick it, but only a skilled lockpick or locksmith can attempt to bypass a complex lock. Anyone can try to climb a deeply-grooved stone wall, but it takes skill to ascend the sheer face of a cliff.

I think this provides some incentive to focus on skill rather than maxing out attribute bonuses...

[Misguided]

One of the things that was clear in my mind (ok, well someone else put the thought there initially...) when I was developing the Token System for Children of the Sun was that skills had to be important. The system is set up in such a way that you're better off as the grizzled veteran whose body has been trashed but is highly skilled than to be a young, inexperienced person with good physical attributes.

It was critical that skills be useful, because they are more difficult to improve than magical ability in the system by design.

In our particular case, the level of skill that a character has puts a "cap" on the degree of success that they can have on many skill tests (not on really basic stuff that anyone can do).

My favorite example of this is with the tracking skill. It has always bugged the hell out of me that a lucky die roll could give you a fantastic success in many games. Ok, so you have the best eyesight on the planet, it makes no difference if you have no experience tracking and have no idea how to interpret the clues/evidence.

So, a person with no tracking skill can still find the tracks, but the amount of information the GM would give them is very limited, such as "a group of creatures were traveling West".

On the other hand, a highly skilled character could potentially get much more information, such as the type of creatures, the number, how long ago they passed, how quickly they were moving etc. However, this isn't automatic. If they barely meet the target difficulty, they won't get much more info than the other guy (in this case because they missed the clues).

This may sound complex by description, but the truth is it is actually quick and dirty and hopefully easy to apply to a broad variety of situations, which is the way I tried to design the systems in the game as much as I possibly could.

I hope this is of interest to some of you. Sorry for the ramble.

[NPC Alban]

Originally posted by NPC JSDiamond
Try granting skill-knowledge some 'hard' benefit that isn't just another addition or subtraction excercise.

Try awarding knowledge with the benefits like immunity from critical failure, multiple attempt ability, or some other skill-specific benefits for achieving levels of a given skill.

This way learning a skill is something to truly aspire to, as opposed to just adding another pip to my die-roll.

Ideas, ideas...

Jeff
6-0 Games
http://www.orbit-rpg.com

In the system I exposed, advanced trainings might do such things.

Example : Basic Sword Fighting enables you to use correctly your Sword, and Expert Sword Fighting enables you to either attack once with +2 chances to hit, or twice with difficulty 2.