4E

[Professorpain]

What does everyone think of all the teaser stuff they have seen on 4E so far? I have to admit I was excited at first, but as I see more and more info about it I am getting a little worried. It looks like they are going for more of a video game/anime feel than high fantasy. Still I intend to buy the books and run a few games, but I am worried they are targetting a younger audience this time around.

[Yo! Master]

Just to note, "it looks like anime / videogames" (especially if the reference is to WoW, with M:tG rounding up the troika) is a comment that even though often heard doesn't really lead to the... best of discussions. ;)


Personally, i like pretty much everything we've seen (from the teasers to the new adventure), a lot. If my "biggest" gripes are some of the art pieces then i'd say i'm OK with that game, eh? :D

[Zeea]

What does everyone think of all the teaser stuff they have seen on 4E so far? I have to admit I was excited at first, but as I see more and more info about it I am getting a little worried. It looks like they are going for more of a video game/anime feel than high fantasy. Still I intend to buy the books and run a few games, but I am worried they are targetting a younger audience this time around.

I got that impression until I ran part of Keep on the Shadowfell. In play, it feels like previous editions for the most part. The setting is actually a bit more mature from what I've seen.

[mysticjuicer]

What does everyone think of all the teaser stuff they have seen on 4E so far? I have to admit I was excited at first, but as I see more and more info about it I am getting a little worried. It looks like they are going for more of a video game/anime feel than high fantasy. Still I intend to buy the books and run a few games, but I am worried they are targetting a younger audience this time around.

Based on the spoilers they've shown, it looks like they sat down one afternoon several years ago and said: "Let's write an edition of D&D just for Simon." And then they did.

[Yo! Master]

Based on the spoilers they've shown, it looks like they sat down one afternoon several years ago and said: "Let's write an edition of D&D just for Simon." And then they did.

Ah, you're also part of the Yo!-Belphanior hive-mind, i see. :D



P.S. And to tell the truth when the first info starting coming out, i was expecting that 4th ed. would look more like SWSE, i.e. much closer to 3.x, few Classes with Class Ability tries (especially ones for the Classes that they absorbed), & stuff like that. Now it looks like SWSE is 3.x with some of the 4th ed stuff ported to it & some more added up (& that makes sense, in retrospect). Not that i mind that it isn't like that, obviously, but that would be an interesting take, for a remixed 3.x-esque edition.

[Christopher V. Brady]

Some of it's been good, some of it's been bad, and I'm still on the fence about it.

I'll have to take a solid look at the game and see if I want to try it again.

[Professorpain]

Just to note, "it looks like anime / videogames" (especially if the reference is to WoW, with M:tG rounding up the troika) is a comment that even though often heard doesn't really lead to the... best of discussions. ;)


Personally, i like pretty much everything we've seen (from the teasers to the new adventure), a lot. If my "biggest" gripes are some of the art pieces then i'd say i'm OK with that game, eh? :D

I think the comment is often heard because there is a large video game/anime demographic in the gaming community. But those who don't play videos or dislike anime, sometimes feel a little left out. I am not saying there is something wrong or bad with these styles, just that they don't appeal to me personally. Not that it will stop me from buying the books.

[Paul Watson]

What does everyone think of all the teaser stuff they have seen on 4E so far? I have to admit I was excited at first, but as I see more and more info about it I am getting a little worried. It looks like they are going for more of a video game/anime feel than high fantasy. Still I intend to buy the books and run a few games, but I am worried they are targetting a younger audience this time around.Based on the teasers, plus what people are saying about KotS, I've pre-ordered the game. This will be the first edition of D&D I've owned since AD&D 1st ed, back in the early 80's.

[Imban]

with M:tG rounding up the troika

Most of the resemblance to M:tG in my eyes is that they apparently name monsters using the creature names that Magic's R&D team rejected now. ;)

(I mean, Crushgrip Constrictor? Legion Devil Legionnaire? Really?)

[Belphanior]

Ah, you're also part of the Yo!-Belphanior hive-mind, i see. :D

We welcome you. All hail the Hive! Remember, your dreams are our dreams.

[The Little Raven]

Most of the resemblance to M:tG in my eyes is that they apparently name monsters using the creature names that Magic's R&D team rejected now. ;)

(I mean, Crushgrip Constrictor? Legion Devil Legionnaire? Really?)

Which I find way more evocative than 3e's bog-standard "Orc War3."

[Rook]

If the game mechanics and source inspiration leads to fun, enjoyable games at the table, I don't care if inspiration came from video games, anime or fever dreams. I'm all for it. Are there any specific concerns or elements in 4e that you think will lead to less enjoyable games? I believe that bringing up elements as specifically and clearly as possible has the best chance of leading to a good discussion.

[Christian]

The only thing I'm concerned about so far is keeping track of everyone's (including the beasties') at will, per day and per encounter abilities. As a GM this might cause my addled brain to seize up.

For some reason I'm also having a mental block with the Warlord's ability to shift allies and enemies. I wonder how I will narrate the leap-frogging of minis. Shifting really seems to emphasize the battle grid more than ever.

I think I may be going trough one of my phases where the constant counting of squares is starting to bug me. I'll come back the other way, though. I always do. Love minis-hate minis-love minis-etc.

[Fallen Seraph]

If you just start translating 5 Squares = 25 Feet, you won't have to do any counting, if your running it without a mat.

I'd say for the Warlord abilities, narrate it as the Warlord breaking the line in the enemies and the rest of the party surging forth, or attacking more furiously as the Warlock dives into combat, etc.

As for myself, this looks like the first D&D that will actually compete for my attention against nWoD and CthulhuTech. Unlike with 3e D&D where I DMed/Played since rest of group wished to play.

[Imban]

Which I find way more evocative than 3e's bog-standard "Orc War3."

It's a stupid throwaway monster either way.

[Khairn]

The only thing I'm concerned about so far is keeping track of everyone's (including the beasties) at will, per day and per encounter abilities. As a GM this might cause me addled brain to seize up.

For some reason, I'm also having a mental block on the Warlord's ability to shift allies and enemies. I wonder how I will narrate the leap-frogging of minis. It really seems to emphasize the battle grid more than ever.

I think I may be going trough one of my phases where the constant counting of squares is starting to bug me. I'll come back the other way, though. I always do. Love minis-hate minis-love minis-etc.

I understand what you're saying.

After going through a few play-tests I found 4E's "simple and streamlined" system to be more challenging to run (at lower levels) than 3E ever was. Between the various powers, marks, conditional and situation modifiers and players wanting to coordinate powers for maximum efficiency, it left me scratching my head in wonderment as to how inexperienced GM's were going to manage it properly.

I'm not saying the game wasn't fun in places. Just that I can easily understand and empathize with those who are finding it not quite as simple or streamlined as has been advertised.

4E looks and feels to me like a really good miniatures game.

[Ashikaider]

There's a lot of stuff that looks like they took a good hard look at Savage Worlds, saw what worked, and used that for inspiration for what they ended up with.

I may just say that 1 square= 1 inch, and use a tape measure when needed.

[Yo! Master]

There's a lot of stuff that looks like they took a good hard look at Savage Worlds, saw what worked, and used that for inspiration for what they ended up with.

No, no, it's obvious they killed *Earthdawn* & took its stuff. ;)

[EarthsShadow]

As I have been since the beginning, I am all for this game with two thumbs up.

[Kesh]

I was excited by the previews I've seen so far and, having played a few encounters of Keep on the Shadowfell, I'm really looking forward to 4e. Compared to the Living Greyhawk campaign our group has been running, combat is much more dynamic and fun. The LG combats were a slog by comparison, with lots of "dead time" for the healers and just trying to maneuver for position. 4e makes everything a lot faster, provides a ton more options and just makes combat feel more like combat to me.

We did have a little trouble tracking some of the interaction between various powers ("Oh crap, I forgot that +1 from your power earlier!" "Argh, I had combat advantage and forgot to add the +2!"), but I think it's just like remembering some of the extra modifiers in 3e for that part.

[naturaltwenty]

I picked up KotS because I wanted to see the product. I've read a little on the websites (rpg.net, wizards.com, enworld.org) and knew that this D&D would be further away in design style than BD&D, 1st Edition, or 2nd Edition.

I'll have to say that on first glance it looks like it'll be a fun game.

[Tokezo Tenken]

I picked up KotS because I wanted to see the product. I've read a little on the websites (rpg.net, wizards.com, enworld.org) and knew that this D&D would be further away in design style than BD&D, 1st Edition, or 2nd Edition.

I'll have to say that on first glance it looks like it'll be a fun game.
Do you mean 4E is further away in design from 3E than the others or further from the other editions? I have to say I feel it's closer to AD&D 2nd and some of BECMI than 3E ever was.

[Soundchaser]

We played the first two encounters in KOTS last night. Some general reflections include:

* there's a bit more bookkeeping, but its not problematic, and it seems to be worth it, since the various powers are interesting...

* with the new HP mathematics, we're tempted to have a DM track all HPs and roll all damage behind a screen, with little hints and such, like "you're pretty tired, you are getting winded... you are bloodied, bruised, sore, ... you are getting very worried, this [Kobold draginshield etc.] might thrust his spear at just the right moment... [and as I think on this, it's not that big a deal to track with a little preparation and discipline]...

* the little descriptive things in the powers are somewhat cinematic in flavor... they help to move players beyond the usual attention to the crunchy mechanics into a role-playing in the combats (so you don't have as much of the black-and-white effects of noncombat (roleplay heavy) and combat (crunch heavy) sorts of play experience

(and, the last two points intermingle, let the DM handle more crunch, and it's gotten easier so it could work) to let the players become more descriptive...

We took things slow to figure out various rules as well as all the cool stuff on the character sheets, so two encounters plus learning curve went three hours.

(So KOTS paid for itself last night, it was fun, and the important feedback from playing was... we gotta get the PH so we can chargen, it looks like a hoot].

[naturaltwenty]

Further away from BECMI and 2nd (and 3rd for that matter). A party of 1st level characters in any previous editions would not dream of taking on the first encounter from KotS. It'd be a total ass-kicking.

The wizard, if he remembered sleep would have taken out a few beasties but just from sheer numbers the party would be out of spells, out of hitpoints and be lying in a bloody heap after the first encounter. All the mechanics changes in this edition have been made to make up for weaknesses that have been inherent in the system since day one. Not enough fire-power to succeed through an escalating combat/encounter-based game.

In feel - the game is no longer a story about untested heroes eeking out an existance and being afraid of everything that has a THAC0, it's now about using at-will, per encounter, and per day abilities. A first level fighter that can deal out a single attack of 6d6+4 isn't by any stretch of the imagination equal to even a 3rd or 4th level fighter in previous editions.

Not that I mind - it's just not the game anymore where you can play a weakling orphan (Pug from Crydee, Simon from Osten Ard, Fitzchivalry Farseer from Buckkeep Castle, Jill from Eldidd, etc). It now allows you to play a kick-ass, take names, high-action hero.

D&D now has a specific feel that enforces a specific type of play - combat oriented, miniature gaming (which I love but can't scratch the itch for the characters I mentioned before).

Do you mean 4E is further away in design from 3E than the others or further from the other editions? I have to say I feel it's closer to AD&D 2nd and some of BECMI than 3E ever was.

[Rook]

I think it will be pretty easy to create rules for Zeroth level characters. It seems to me that if you simply remove each character's powers and leave them only class abilities, that will go a fair way to lowering their power level while still allowing them feel like members of their character class. And, of course, you could simply remove the class abilties themselves if you wanted to start with a Treasure Island style adventure. Actually, as the first edition module Treasure Island indicates, even in 1e AD&D, characters weren't really considered hayseed farmers and unskilled kids just out of Aunt Mabel's sight.

An even greater method is simply to describe the challenges in a different context. From what's been said about the intro module, even the kobolds present a significant challenge in many scenes. Simply describe the kobolds in a less than impressive way and you'll give the impression that the kobolds that are giving the PCs such trouble aren't exactly forces of doom. Just use the standard low level monster stats, but describe the encounters in such a way that makes it clear that the threats aren't exactly town-threatening. It will make the heroes' feats seem less impressive, but that's the intention, I assume.

[Tokezo Tenken]

Further away from BECMI and 2nd (and 3rd for that matter). A party of 1st level characters in any previous editions would not dream of taking on the first encounter from KotS. It'd be a total ass-kicking.

The wizard, if he remembered sleep would have taken out a few beasties but just from sheer numbers the party would be out of spells, out of hitpoints and be lying in a bloody heap after the first encounter. All the mechanics changes in this edition have been made to make up for weaknesses that have been inherent in the system since day one. Not enough fire-power to succeed through an escalating combat/encounter-based game.

In feel - the game is no longer a story about untested heroes eeking out an existance and being afraid of everything that has a THAC0, it's now about using at-will, per encounter, and per day abilities. A first level fighter that can deal out a single attack of 6d6+4 isn't by any stretch of the imagination equal to even a 3rd or 4th level fighter in previous editions.

Not that I mind - it's just not the game anymore where you can play a weakling orphan (Pug from Crydee, Simon from Osten Ard, Fitzchivalry Farseer from Buckkeep Castle, Jill from Eldidd, etc). It now allows you to play a kick-ass, take names, high-action hero.

D&D now has a specific feel that enforces a specific type of play - combat oriented, miniature gaming (which I love but can't scratch the itch for the characters I mentioned before).
That was only a specific and many groups rarely used this aspect of the rules. And there was a reason for that. I'm sure if the math is transparent everyone that wants can make Drooling Earl, Dirtfarmer again. I can't see how something at least half of the groups that played never used would take the feel of D&D away.

[naturaltwenty]

I plan on getting it - don't get me wrong. The game no longer emulates playing N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God or UK2 The Gauntlet/UK3 The Sentinel (unless you really ramp up the encounters). It is much more heroic in nature and I've specfically said - there's nothing wrong with that. It has matured into it's current form but I'd say it now resembles Chainmail and it even more miniatures focused than BECMI, 1st, 2nd or even 3rd.

[Rook]

I plan on getting it - don't get me wrong. The game no longer emulates playing N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God or UK2 The Gauntlet/UK3 The Sentinel (unless you really ramp up the encounters).I can't really comment on UK2/3, since I never really used them. However, the Cult module is one of my favorite and most used AD&D modules. I have to admit, I'm not really sure why it would be difficult to use with 4e. I mean, yes, the combat encounters would have to be made appropriate for the PCs, but I'm not sure why that necessarily means that you would depart from the overall feel of the module. While it is true that the secret cult members are a significant threat, but I've never felt they were primarily a open *combat* threat. And, even if so, you can just use the stats appropriate for 1st level standard threats for them. After all, if you want to level the playing field and make the PCs feel less like giants astide the earth, you can simply use the relative combat stats to make them feel less so. You would probably want to mention this to the PCs prior to them starting the campaign, but I think it would work out fine, game mechanically. I mean, previously you noted that you couldn't have the PCs feel like more-or-less normal shlubs if they could pound out 6d6+4 damage. But what if that damage was average to the common threats in the campaign and hit points across the board were higher (as they are for many threats in 4e)? They're just numbers and relative to the challenges you throw at the PCs. If you have every Tom, Dick and Harry in the village have 20+ hit points, then you've simply redefined the baseline. Yes, it may be different numbers than previous editions, but so what? There's nothing magical about single digit hit points for farmers and children.

[mhacdebhandia]

If you just start translating 5 Squares = 25 Feet, you won't have to do any counting, if your running it without a mat.
Living as I do in a right-thinking nation which uses the metric system, it's even easier for me. I'm just going to say 1 square = 1 metre. Obviously, that means 1 square = something like 3.28 feet, not 5 feet, but as an abstraction. who cares? It's also going to sound much less silly giving distances in metres rather than indivisible blocks of 5 feet.

[Mostlyjoe]

No, no, it's obvious they killed *Earthdawn* & took its stuff. ;)

Agreed. You can see the powers for each class, rituals vs prepared spells, and combat flourish elements of Earthdawn's logic slipped into the D&D group though. I too have a tap into the Hive-Mind, but mine is run through a series of filters to remove all the commercials.

[Professorpain]

I plan on getting it - don't get me wrong. The game no longer emulates playing N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God or UK2 The Gauntlet/UK3 The Sentinel (unless you really ramp up the encounters). It is much more heroic in nature and I've specfically said - there's nothing wrong with that. It has matured into it's current form but I'd say it now resembles Chainmail and it even more miniatures focused than BECMI, 1st, 2nd or even 3rd.

There is certainly nothing wrong with it. It is all a question of taste and taste among different demohraphics. I think your chainmail observation makes a lot of sense. But I tend to think that kind of move isn't going to go over so well with the over 30s like myself. I just don't like what I am seeing from the new module they released. I also have to say, wizards really lost my loyalty when they started putting out tons of splat books last time around, but neglected to put out any real substantive DM material. So I will buy the new books, but I don't know if they are the gold standard any longer. A lot of other companies emerged in the d20 era and have since put out there own systems. Savage Worlds, True 20, etc seem to be showing more promise and creativity.

[Nokura]

There's a lot of stuff that looks like they took a good hard look at Savage Worlds, saw what worked, and used that for inspiration for what they ended up with.

No, no, it's obvious they killed *Earthdawn* & took its stuff. ;)

Actually, I think you'll find that 4th Edition killed a whole bunch of other games and took their stuff.

Thankfully it took the stuff I really like and left the stuff I didn't.

Now Yo! where can I get that hive-mind application form? Or do you already know I want to join. Actually, I'm probably already in there with you. I just don't know it...

[Nokura]

There is certainly nothing wrong with it. It is all a question of taste and taste among different demohraphics. I think your chainmail observation makes a lot of sense. But I tend to think that kind of move isn't going to go over so well with the over 30s like myself. I just don't like what I am seeing from the new module they released. I also have to say, wizards really lost my loyalty when they started putting out tons of splat books last time around, but neglected to put out any real substantive DM material. So I will buy the new books, but I don't know if they are the gold standard any longer. A lot of other companies emerged in the d20 era and have since put out there own systems. Savage Worlds, True 20, etc seem to be showing more promise and creativity.

When you use the term 'over 30s like myself' do you mean: people who share my personal preferences or people over 30?

As a 32 year old I really like what I've seen, and I know others of a similar age bracket that feel the same way, so I don't think age-based assumptions will do you any favours. Other people have done that on these boards and I don't think that the assumption is valid.

[ZombieButch]

As a 32 year old I really like what I've seen, and I know others of a similar age bracket that feel the same way, so I don't think age-based assumptions will do you any favours. Other people have done that on these boards and I don't think that the assumption is valid.

Yep. I'm very much looking forward to 4th Edition; I'll likely be receiving it as a Father's Day present this year! :)

And if I enjoy it as much as I suspect I will, I'll probably publish material for it at some point, although I doubt I'll try to have something out in October. I'll wait a bit and avoid the initial rush.

[Professorpain]

When you use the term 'over 30s like myself' do you mean: people who share my personal preferences or people over 30?

As a 32 year old I really like what I've seen, and I know others of a similar age bracket that feel the same way, so I don't think age-based assumptions will do you any favours. Other people have done that on these boards and I don't think that the assumption is valid.



Didn't mean to offend. But I do think it is okay to generalize. Don't really buy into the argument that a generalization is invalid because a few people break the general rule. Generalizations are different than assumptions because they are made after you have gathered information. Game companies make aged based generalizations all the time because they are valid. I might be incorrect about this one in particular. My experience has been that people in my age group were not so impressed with the direction of 3E after all the prestige classes and splat books cranked up the "power factor". They also seemed largely displeased with the anime art and powers. That said, I am sure a lot of over 30s liked the direction very much. You are clearly one such person. But in my daily experience, when I meet gamers in my age group they seem to have the same level of caution I do about 4E.

Again, I am happy to buy the books and play the game. I just find that my loyalty to the company has dimished greatly since 3Es initial release, and that I am more active in seeking alternative systems.

[Nokura]

Didn't mean to offend. But I do think it is okay to generalize. Don't really buy into the argument that a generalization is invalid because a few people break the general rule. What Generalizations are different than assumptions because they are made after you have gathered information. Game companies make aged based generalizations all the time because they are valid. I might be incorrect about this one in particular. My experience has been that people in my age group were not so impressed with the direction of 3E after all the prestige classes and splat books cranked up the "power factor". They also seemed largely displeased with the anime art and powers. That said, I am sure a lot of over 30s liked the direction very much. You are clearly one such person. But in my daily experience, when I meet gamers in my age group they seem to have the same level of caution I do about 4E.

Again, I am happy to buy the books and play the game. I just find that my loyalty to the company has dimished greatly since 3Es initial release, and that I am more active in seeking alternative systems.

Fair enough. Horses for courses and all that. If you've met a number of people that don't like it then its anecdotal - but so is my experience so we won't go into that discussion.

Most of the people I game with are in the over 30s demographic and we play all sorts of games with a range of likes and dislikes. Hmm. This might call for a poll.

It will be a potentially biased self selecting poll of a subset of a niche market as represented by the RPG.net board readers. :) But its not like I can afford to do anything serious!

On the other hand, Wizards probably did do this very thing. Does anyone know of this kind of demographic data regarding 4th ed market research?

[Zap Branigan]

On the other hand, Wizards probably did do this very thing. Does anyone know of this kind of demographic data regarding 4th ed market research?
I think the market research went into, what they heard in feedback and making it more mmorpg friendly... not what age group they where shooting for.

I'm 40 and 4e brought me back... I haven't played D&D since the late 80's...

Take that for what you will, but using anecdotal evidence really proves nothing, other than it is what your experience is like.

[Professorpain]

I think the market research went into, what they heard in feedback and making it more mmorpg friendly... not what age group they where shooting for.
.

I would guess that the people playing mmorpg's tend to be younger. Regardless what is important is that people are reacting (either positively or negatively) to this trend (though again I still think your average 22 year old is more likely to think this is a cool move than your average 32 year old). Personally, since I really don't like MMORPGs (just can't get into them) I am inclined to respond with caution and negativity.

[bv728]

I would guess that the people playing mmorpg's tend to be younger. Regardless what is important is that people are reacting (either positively or negatively) to this trend (though again I still think your average 22 year old is more likely to think this is a cool move than your average 32 year old). Personally, since I really don't like MMORPGs (just can't get into them) I am inclined to respond with caution and negativity.

I help run a World of Warcraft guild; our average age is over 30. We have several people between the ages of 60-70 in our guild. Personally, I'm 27. I really don't think that age is a good generalizer here.

I also really don't think that 4e feels that influenced by MMO design; it's definitely more strongly influanced by other fantasy games, like Exalted, Earthdawn, and much of the work done by other companies on 3.x, such as Mutants and Masterminds, Iron Heroes, Arcana Unearthed, and True 20. MMO design doesn't have much to do with current tabletop design, unless you count the possibility of 'Reduced Prep Time' to count as an inspiration. For every design feature showing up, there's been another game which did it at least a decade ago in a less refined form on the tabletop.

[Kesh]

Speaking as a 30-something gamer, most of the people I've talked to who were unhappy with the previews were in the 20-something range. A few of the grognards were complaining, but most folks in my age range were excited that the game is more like old-school, cinematic D&D we used to play.

[Paul Watson]

I think the market research went into, what they heard in feedback and making it more mmorpg friendly... not what age group they where shooting for.

I'm 40 and 4e brought me back... I haven't played D&D since the late 80's...

Take that for what you will, but using anecdotal evidence really proves nothing, other than it is what your experience is like.Heh, that's funny. Another 40 year old here, and 4e is brining me back to D&D for the first time since the early 80's.

[Singing Smurf]

I would guess that the people playing mmorpg's tend to be younger.

*shrug*

MMORPGs are very convenient for people with limited gaming time at weird hours - like parents and busy professionals.

This thirtysomething is looking forward to running D&D for his friends with less prep time. Bring on 4e!


-Smurfy.

[Professorpain]

Speaking as a 30-something gamer, most of the people I've talked to who were unhappy with the previews were in the 20-something range. A few of the grognards were complaining, but most folks in my age range were excited that the game is more like old-school, cinematic D&D we used to play.

All the guys I game with are 30-50 and have (with 1 exception) expressed concerns about 4E. Now at the gaming store I hang out at, I have seen the same thing among the over 30s, but excitment among the 20 and unders. But we have been getting more of a video game vibe than a cinematic old school vibe from the material thus far. I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays.

To be fair, I may have low expectations after all the 3E splat books and the serious decline in quality of the D&D line the last couple of years. If they hold to their promise of no 4.5, and if they put out a lot of good DM material (which they really dropped the ball on last time around) I may be singing a new tune soon enough. If they start releasing high priced/low word count hardcovers again, I will probably stop playing D&D altogether.

[Zap Branigan]

Heh, that's funny. Another 40 year old here, and 4e is brining me back to D&D for the first time since the early 80's.
Shit and I'm Canadian to... and if you say your from Northern Ontario I'm gonna start getting creeped out. :D

[Paul Watson]

Shit and I'm Canadian to... and if you say your from Northern Ontario I'm gonna start getting creeped out. :DDarn! Southern Alberta, here. Ah well, we were on a bit of a roll, there :D .

[Paul Watson]

I help run a World of Warcraft guild; our average age is over 30. We have several people between the ages of 60-70 in our guild. Personally, I'm 27. I really don't think that age is a good generalizer here.Every WoW guild I've been in has been filled with almost all 30 and 40-somethings, most with careers, families, etc. And I frequently run and join pick-up groups with a good percentage of people who ... well, by way of example, I was in the same group the other day with a woman who's eldest child was in his 20's.

[Ratoslov]

Basically, I like it because it's Ultimate D&D: Remixing old-school themes with new-school ideas.

[macd21]

Originally Posted by Kesh
Speaking as a 30-something gamer, most of the people I've talked to who were unhappy with the previews were in the 20-something range. A few of the grognards were complaining, but most folks in my age range were excited that the game is more like old-school, cinematic D&D we used to play.

All the guys I game with are 30-50 and have (with 1 exception) expressed concerns about 4E. Now at the gaming store I hang out at, I have seen the same thing among the over 30s, but excitment among the 20 and unders. But we have been getting more of a video game vibe than a cinematic old school vibe from the material thus far. I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays.


Its not really unusual that the people you game with will have similar reactions to 4ed as you. So if you are a 30+ gamer who doesn't like 4ed, probably your 30+ gaming buddies will have a similar reaction. Likewise if you are a 20+ gamer who doesn't like 4ed. You and your friends (who are probably the in the same age bracket) have similar gaming experiences and preferences.

My own experience is that it varies from group to group. The group of 20-somethings I usually play with isn't too keen on 4ed. Another group is already coming up with characters and a setting. Age doesn't seem to be too big a factor.

[dr. strangemonkey]

I'm in my thirties and pretty excited.

I have to say though that I don't really trust my demographic. Most of my old DnD peers are phasing out of gaming and - well - socializing all together.

The people who do seem to be excited in my demographic are all new to DnD or getting back into it.

Also, though there was a lack of good DM material I think a lot of the products from WotC in the last couple of years have been really good. The Nadir was really about three years back.

Actually, no, I take that back. That's only true locally. The response on the whole has been really positive.

[Perdidas]

I think the comment is often heard because there is a large video game/anime demographic in the gaming community. But those who don't play videos or dislike anime, sometimes feel a little left out. I am not saying there is something wrong or bad with these styles, just that they don't appeal to me personally. Not that it will stop me from buying the books.

I loathe "anime", only enjoy videogames from the mid-nineties, and think that WoW enjoys a level of success utterly disproportional to it's quality; and it still looks to me as though 4th edition will be by far the most balanced, elegant, user-friendly and generally well-designed game to carry the Dungeons and Dragons brand ever produced.

The "it's too anime" (whatever the hell that means) criticism leaves me baffled.

[Professorpain]

I loathe "anime", only enjoy videogames from the mid-nineties, and think that WoW enjoys a level of success utterly disproportional to it's quality; and it still looks to me as though 4th edition will be by far the most balanced, elegant, user-friendly and generally well-designed game to carry the Dungeons and Dragons brand ever produced.

The "it's too anime" (whatever the hell that means) criticism leaves me baffled.

This may well be based on nothing, since I am only going on the little teaser info and art I have seen. I could have completely misjudged the direction they were going.

In all honesty I believe the "it is too anime" concern, arises from the splat book material they pumped out for 3.0 and 3.5. A lot of the prestige classes appeared to be based more on anime character types than on traditional fantasy. People are just worried they are going to go even further in that regard. But you are right, there is probably not much evidence to support the concern.

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm 41, dislike probably 90% or more of all art produced by WotC in the 3.* cycle, and wasn't too impressed with 3.5 as a whole, either. I'll eventually buy the basics of 4E, and enjoy playing it, too. Most of my gaming group is in a similar demographic, with similar expectations.

So there's another age anecdote from a group sitting on the fence, looking at 4E with a generally positive outlook, but not so excited that we are hopping down right now. ;)

[L. Ron Paul]

What do I feel? About 4e?

Well, an opportunity to present my feelings on this subject so rarely come around.

It's my opinion that 4

[lisiecki]

I still have no idea what "Anime audience" means

Younger audience huh?

lets see, i was 8 when i started playing D&D
so i don't know HOW MUCH younger you can get...
i mean you have to be able to roll dice

so like 4?


What does everyone think of all the teaser stuff they have seen on 4E so far? I have to admit I was excited at first, but as I see more and more info about it I am getting a little worried. It looks like they are going for more of a video game/anime feel than high fantasy. Still I intend to buy the books and run a few games, but I am worried they are targetting a younger audience this time around.

[lisiecki]

Your the one that posted the "it is to anime" concern, tell us what you mean by it please.
Frankly, i aggre, i think the "tennis playing champ" class went to far
Don't get me started on "adorable but helpless school girl"
and
"guy who hits things with swords"
classes



In all honesty I believe the "it is too anime" concern, arises from the splat book material they pumped out for 3.0 and 3.5. A lot of the prestige classes appeared to be based more on anime character types than on traditional fantasy. People are just worried they are going to go even further in that regard. But you are right, there is probably not much evidence to support the concern.

[Professorpain]

Your the one that posted the "it is to anime" concern, tell us what you mean by it please.
Frankly, i aggre, i think the "tennis playing champ" class went to far
Don't get me started on "adorable but helpless school girl"
and
"guy who hits things with swords"
classes

Yes, and I explained that it was a concern that was based on the splat books from 3.0 and 3.5. Because the prestige classes were based more on their powers than on solid concepts (like an anime character). When I say something is too anime that is what I have in mind. For me it means something is a little too baroque. It is just my personal taste. Nothing against people who like anime. I simply happen not to.

[Professorpain]

I still have no idea what "Anime audience" means

Younger audience huh?

lets see, i was 8 when i started playing D&D
so i don't know HOW MUCH younger you can get...
i mean you have to be able to roll dice

so like 4?

This has more to do with what year you started, not how old you were when you did. Why the hostility?

[lisiecki]

Ok, first off, i have no idea how "Because the prestige classes were based more on their powers than on solid concepts"= Anime Character, I must have missed that in lucky stars, prince of tennis, slayers, dragonball, ect, ect, ect.


Its not a matter of if you like anime or not, i don't see how that is anime.


Also, you didnt say "basied on 3.0 and 3.5 splat books" you said that that was what you "have seen on 4E so far"


Yes, and I explained that it was a concern that was based on the splat books from 3.0 and 3.5. Because the prestige classes were based more on their powers than on solid concepts (like an anime character). When I say something is too anime that is what I have in mind. For me it means something is a little too baroque. It is just my personal taste. Nothing against people who like anime. I simply happen not to.

[lisiecki]

Yes, and i was 8
Im curious as to how you think they are "targeting a younger audience this time around".
What was the target age for an animated cartoon show in the 80s?
How dose it have to do with the year i started?
I started with n i was 8 years old, there was a Cartoon show on saturday mornings, there was, i seem to recall, a half hour show talking about D&D that was on before or after it.
It was a lot of marketing, for a very young audience


This has more to do with what year you started, not how old you were when you did. Why the hostility?

[Professorpain]

Yes, and i was 8
Im curious as to how you think they are "targeting a younger audience this time around".
What was the target age for an animated cartoon show in the 80s?
How dose it have to do with the year i started?
I started with n i was 8 years old, there was a Cartoon show on saturday mornings, there was, i seem to recall, a half hour show talking about D&D that was on before or after it.
It was a lot of marketing, for a very young audience

Again, I do not understand why you are so hostile, when all I am doing is giving my opinion.

Its based on a few things. The target age for most entertainment products have gotten lower and lower (and this is not a bad thing by the way), because companies began to realize young people are the ones spending money on these kinds of products.

It has to do with the year you began playing, because I am thinking here is terms of the generation of gamers. If you started younger, then you may have picked up some of the tastes and sensibilites of gaming at the time.

The target age probably was lower. But the AD&D game at the time was clearly marketted for older people (as I recall it was Gary Gygax who was the brainchild of the cartoon and not the people at TSR).

[Professorpain]

Ok, first off, i have no idea how "Because the prestige classes were based more on their powers than on solid concepts"= Anime Character, I must have missed that in lucky stars, prince of tennis, slayers, dragonball, ect, ect, ect.


Its not a matter of if you like anime or not, i don't see how that is anime.


Also, you didnt say "basied on 3.0 and 3.5 splat books" you said that that was what you "have seen on 4E so far"

First off, if you are going to quote me, stop making it look like I mispelled things. In my original posts, I did not make the spelling errors you attribute to me.

Because in shows like Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, Slayers, even Ranma characters are conceptualized based on their powers, not so much on history or internal motivation. That is the connection between splat book prestige classes (Which are short cuts to fleshed out characters based on powers). There is nothing wrong with this by the way. And it is perfectly possible to make a character based on unique power that is fully fleshed out. I am not trying to argue for or against the stormwind fallacy here. Just making the point that prestige classes, in my own personal view, are characters based on unusual powers. And that this is, to me, reminiscent of anime.

Anime has a lot of qualities. Interesting visual effects. Unusual settings. Quirky humor. But many people associate it, rightly or wrongly, with characters dilineated strictly by the powers they have. And that the powers tend to be poorly explained (as they are in many splat book prestige classes) and magical in nature. I would also point out that the same criticism could be leveled at comic books.

Keep reading. You will see that I later said, I believed the concern (including my own) over anime influence in 4E really comes from our experiences with the splat books from 3.0 and 3.5.

[lisiecki]

Wow
yes
I misspelled a word... I hope, given time, you can forgive me, for misspelling, a one word.
Now, this is just me, but i thought that since DragonBall is the story of Sun Wukong, it would be completly about the history of the character.

Frankly what i find upsetting, as always, is the idea that anime is a genre, and not a medium.
Anime is a medium with countless subgroupings, to say that something is "to anime" is like saying that something is "To inspired by movies" or "to literary".
Now, something can be to shonen, to shojo to moe ect, ect...

But what im curious about, isn't what you said after your initial post but in your first post when you said


What does everyone think of all the teaser stuff they have seen on 4E so far? I have to admit I was excited at first, but as I see more and more info about it I am getting a little worried. It looks like they are going for more of a video game/anime


What part of the teasers so far have made you think it would be to "anime"

[lisiecki]

Not hostile at all, I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind your statement that you think the target age is becoming younger.
And if its not a bad thing, why would you be worried about it?

And im really not seeing your logic behind the fact that its the Year and not the Age i started gaming that was important.
I started playing D&D at a young age, because it was marketed towards my friends and i in a very effective manner. Again, all im trying to do is figure out why/how you think its being marketed to a younger age now than it was then.


Again, I do not understand why you are so hostile, when all I am doing is giving my opinion.

Its based on a few things. The target age for most entertainment products have gotten lower and lower (and this is not a bad thing by the way), because companies began to realize young people are the ones spending money on these kinds of products.

It has to do with the year you began playing, because I am thinking here is terms of the generation of gamers. If you started younger, then you may have picked up some of the tastes and sensibilites of gaming at the time.

The target age probably was lower. But the AD&D game at the time was clearly marketted for older people (as I recall it was Gary Gygax who was the brainchild of the cartoon and not the people at TSR).

[Professorpain]

Not hostile at all, I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind your statement that you think the target age is becoming younger.
And if its not a bad thing, why would you be worried about it?

And im really not seeing your logic behind the fact that its the Year and not the Age i started gaming that was important.
I started playing D&D at a young age, because it was marketed towards my friends and i in a very effective manner. Again, all im trying to do is figure out why/how you think its being marketed to a younger age now than it was then.


I have tried to explain why I thought they were shooting for a younger audience. If you don't accept my explaination, thats fine.

Why worry about it? Because I am not young, and they seem to be putting out stuff that appeals to younger and younger people each year. So the stuff has less appeal for me.

I already explained my position about when I started to you. I came of age in the 80s, and feel that the complexity of the systems and the content of the subject matter was more mature at that time. 3.0 and 3.5 seemed to be marketed at a slightly younger demographic, and up until a few posts ago I thought 4E was going to take this trend further (I changed my mind by the way because of other people's posts). This is a hard thing to quantify, just my reaction. I could easily be wrong about it. I have given you my position. Either accept it or do not. I am not trying to start a debate. I started the thread to get people's opinions on 4E, not to argue with people.

[Professorpain]

Wow
yes
I misspelled a word... I hope, given time, you can forgive me, for misspelling, a one word.
Now, this is just me, but i thought that since DragonBall is the story of Sun Wukong, it would be completly about the history of the character.

Frankly what i find upsetting, as always, is the idea that anime is a genre, and not a medium.
Anime is a medium with countless subgroupings, to say that something is "to anime" is like saying that something is "To inspired by movies" or "to literary".
Now, something can be to shonen, to shojo to moe ect, ect...

But what im curious about, isn't what you said after your initial post but in your first post when you said

What part of the teasers so far have made you think it would be to "anime"

No you mispelled a word within a quotation that you were attributing to me. I don't care if you mispell your own ideas. Just don't do it to mine.It does matter. Because even I, for a moment, thought I had mispelled things when I saw the post. It wasn't till I went back and looked at my original statement that I realised you introduced the error.

As for Anime being a genre or a medium. It is not a medium. Animation is a medium. Film is a medium. Anime is animation that comes out of Japan or that emulates the japanese style of animation. It has a feel and style all its own that is informed by Japanese culture. It may not be a genre. But it is certainly a recognizable style. Comparing the phrase "its too anime" to its "too literary" doesn't work. A better comparison would be "its too anime" is like saying "its too french" or its "too Hollywood" or even "its too 70s". However I suggest we move on from this. I really just meant to say it was too one dimensional and outrageously fantastic. I could just have easily said it was too like a comic book. I wasn't attacking anime as a style. It seems to me that you really just want to argue that anime is a more serious and respected style of animation that it is often given credit for. I suggest you start a new thread on that very subject if you feel that way.

I retracted my initial reaction to the material being anime (which was based more on the artwork and the way they were putting a little more magic power into the classes) because someone pointed out I may have been reading too much into too narrow a view of 4E. So I am waiting until the book is out to make that decision. However, 3.0 and 3.5 in my view, resembled anime more than western fantasy. And this probably colored by perception of 4E.

[lisiecki]

Yes, and i apologized, profusely, for misspelling that word
IS that not enough, would you prefer a pound of my flesh?
my first born?
oral sex?

Now im going to try to figure out what "Anime is animation that comes out of Japan or that emulates the japanese style of animation." means. Anime, is animation, from japan, that emulates the japanese style of animation...
Most likey far to smart for me


I tried to answer your question about anime, but dude you gotta relax. I am not going to keep answering your posts if you insist on using that tone, and taking my personal tastes personally.

Also, please do me a favor and dont send me PM's telling me how to behave

No you mispelled a word within a quotation that you were attributing to me. I don't care if you mispell your own ideas. Just don't do it to mine.It does matter. Because even I, for a moment, thought I had mispelled things when I saw the post. It wasn't till I went back and looked at my original statement that I realised you introduced the error.

As for Anime being a genre or a medium. It is not a medium. Animation is a medium. Film is a medium. Anime is animation that comes out of Japan or that emulates the japanese style of animation. It has a feel and style all its own that is informed by Japanese culture. It may not be a genre. But it is certainly a recognizable style. Comparing the phrase "its too anime" to its "too literary" doesn't work. A better comparison would be "its too anime" is like saying "its too french" or its "too Hollywood" or even "its too 70s". However I suggest we move on from this. I really just meant to say it was too one dimensional and outrageously fantastic. I could just have easily said it was too like a comic book. I wasn't attacking anime as a style.

I retracted my initial reaction to the material being anime (which was based more on the artwork and the way they were putting a little more magic power into the classes) because someone pointed out I may have been reading too much into too narrow a view of 4E. So I am waiting until the book is out to make that decision. However, 3.0 and 3.5 in my view, resembled anime more than western fantasy. And this probably colored by perception of 4E.

[Professorpain]

Yes, and i apologized, profusely, for misspelling that word
IS that not enough, would you prefer a pound of my flesh?
my first born?
oral sex?

Now im going to try to figure out what "Anime is animation that comes out of Japan or that emulates the japanese style of animation." means. Anime, is animation, from japan, that emulates the japanese style of animation...
Most likey far to smart for me

Look I have already explained my position to you, and asked that you be more polite. I do not think my definition of Anime is all that complicated or confusing. It was the one we used in my media course while I was in college, but maybe you have a better one. But the one I used also seems to match what people are describing when they use the word anime. Either way, my point was not about anime, but D&D. I merely used anime as a simile.As I said, I could just as easily used comic books instead. But please, if you must reply again please do not be rude.

[Professorpain]

Also, please do me a favor and dont send me PM's telling me how to behave

I sent you a PM asking you to relax a bit. Please don't place my private message to you in the public forum. It is just considered bad form.

[Jack of None]

It's just that it's really tiring when people use "too anime" (or "too MMORPG" or "too Harry Potter" or "too Final Fantasy" or "too CCG") as synonyms for "I don't like this". Not only is it inaccurate and irritating to people who actually LIKE these things, it doesn't actually say anything about what you don't like in the game. If you say "3e was too anime," I have no clue what you mean. If you say "3e had serious power creep" or "3e's art showed too many glowing items" or "3e had uninspiring classes", then we have something to talk about.

So you don't like power-based prestige classes, whatever that means. What kinds of prestige classes WOULD you like to see?

[lisiecki]

I don't see a question there.
I see a demand

If i don't do X you'll stop doing Y.

Please don't send me private messages making demands upon my actions, im not sure what the rest of the world thinks, but i, personally, consider it mean

I sent you a PM asking you to relax a bit. Please don't place my private message to you in the public forum. It is just considered bad form.

[lisiecki]

And i am using the definition
Anime: the term used to refer to animation originating from Japan.

Look I have already explained my position to you, and asked that you be more polite. I do not think my definition of Anime is all that complicated or confusing. It was the one we used in my media course while I was in college, but maybe you have a better one. But the one I used also seems to match what people are describing when they use the word anime. Either way, my point was not about anime, but D&D. I merely used anime as a simile.As I said, I could just as easily used comic books instead. But please, if you must reply again please do not be rude.

[Seroster]

But the one I used also seems to match what people are describing when they use the word anime. Either way, my point was not about anime, but D&D. I merely used anime as a simile.As I said, I could just as easily used comic books instead. But please, if you must reply again please do not be rude.

There's nothing wrong with the definition you quoted. lisiecki seems to have confused the fact that it's a two-part definition: (a) animation produced in Japan, or (b) animation produced with a similar style.

But that doesn't really help your original analogy. Some anime contains no supernatural powers at all, for instance.

[Professorpain]

I don't see a question there.
I see a demand

If i don't do X you'll stop doing Y.

Please don't send me private messages making demands upon my actions, im not sure what the rest of the world thinks, but i, personally, consider it mean

I was setting a boundary with you because you were being rude.

You made public a private post that I sent to you (Which was private by the way as a courtesy to you). On every forum I have been on this has been both against the rules and just considered to be in poor taste.

[Professorpain]

There's nothing wrong with the definition you quoted. lisiecki seems to have confused the fact that it's a two-part definition: (a) animation produced in Japan, or (b) animation produced with a similar style.

But that doesn't really help your original analogy. Some anime contains no supernatural powers at all, for instance.

Yes but most of it does. Certainly there are anime flicks or series that bend or break the mold. But most anime has a recognizable style, a style that revolves largely around the use of supernatural powers. Heck that is why I loved the stuff when I was younger.

Just because there are exceptions to the general rule that doesn't break the generalization or the analogy. I never said all anime contained supernatural powers. But my impression is that most of it does. That is at least what I think of when I think of anime: supernatural powers, characters defined by their powers, crazy-physics bending aesthetics, and convoluted storylines.

[dr. strangemonkey]

Yes but most of it does. Certainly there are anime flicks or series that bend or break the mold. But most anime has a recognizable style, a style that revolves largely around the use of supernatural powers. Heck that is why I loved the stuff when I was younger. Just because there are exceptions to the general rule that doesn't break the generalization or the analogy.

Honestly, I don't associate supernatural powers with anime anymore than I do with any other pulp or animated medium.

If anything I think anime is less supernatural and more sci-fi. Robotech and such. Then there's the whole Samurai Champloo and His and Her Circumstances side of the medium which have very little in common with either fantasy, the supernatural, or SF.

[Professorpain]

It's just that it's really tiring when people use "too anime" (or "too MMORPG" or "too Harry Potter" or "too Final Fantasy" or "too CCG") as synonyms for "I don't like this". Not only is it inaccurate and irritating to people who actually LIKE these things, it doesn't actually say anything about what you don't like in the game. If you say "3e was too anime," I have no clue what you mean. If you say "3e had serious power creep" or "3e's art showed too many glowing items" or "3e had uninspiring classes", then we have something to talk about.

So you don't like power-based prestige classes, whatever that means. What kinds of prestige classes WOULD you like to see?

Like I said, I could just as easily have said it was too comic book. I think most people get what you are saying when you say something is too anime. Too flashy, too power-based, all aesthetic but little substance etc. You might think it is not specific enough to say "it is too anime" or "it is too comic book" but generally people are responding to the general feel of a system when they make such statements. It isn't something that can always be pinned down to one or two things.

I don't think the comparison is an innacurate one. It is a matter of taste. For instance I love french cinema. But I understand what people mean when they say a movie had too much of a french feel. I get that people associate french movies with being intellectual and morose. No need to argue over the generalization itself.

The problem, for me, with prestige classes was that there powers were too outrageous and flashy. Would have prefered more mundane, less magical powers. The prestige classes just reminded me of comic book or anime characters more than traditional fantasy.

[Stephenls]

I sent you a PM asking you to relax a bit. Please don't place my private message to you in the public forum. It is just considered bad form.

In fact, not only is it considered bad form, it is against the damn rules, lisiecki. Private correspondence remains private unless both parties consent otherwise; this is covered in Rule 6.

[lisiecki]

Its true, i may be confused.
the part i don't understand is the second

"Anime is animation that comes out of Japan

or that emulates the japanese style of animation."

When ever I've talked to people about anime, and, i don't pretend to be an expert, Anime is only thought of as animation that is actually produced in Japan, or by a Japanese animation studio.
That was quite an impressive run on sentence on my part.

There's nothing wrong with the definition you quoted. lisiecki seems to have confused the fact that it's a two-part definition: (a) animation produced in Japan, or (b) animation produced with a similar style.

But that doesn't really help your original analogy. Some anime contains no supernatural powers at all, for instance.

[lisiecki]

noted


In fact, not only is it considered bad form, it is against the damn rules, lisiecki. Private correspondence remains private unless both parties consent otherwise; this is covered in Rule 6.

[Sytthas]

all aesthetic but little substance

I suspect it's things like this that get anime afficionados frothing. Not that I'm one, just sayin'.

[Professorpain]

Honestly, I don't associate supernatural powers with anime anymore than I do with any other pulp or animated medium.

If anything I think anime is less supernatural and more sci-fi. Robotech and such. Then there's the whole Samurai Champloo and His and Her Circumstances side of the medium which have very little in common with either fantasy, the supernatural, or SF.

Even the science fiction stuff tends to get more into the fantastic I think. I hear what you are saying though. That is why I simply said in the first place that the prestige classes struck me as too anime. Just a reaction, a feel I got. When you try to break it down after the fact, it gets messy.

If I really had to pin down what it is about anime that bothers me it would be that it places too much importance on aesthetics, not enough on utility. I know some people like the style. But I have simply lost interest in it.

look I am going to bail on this thread. It is in danger of turning into a flame war.

[lisiecki]

Thank you Sytthas.
It may just be me, but when i think "Anime" i think things like
Ghost in the Shell
Akira
Perfect Blue
princess mononoke
Spirited Away
Osamu Tezuka's work
The girl who fell through time
and
Lucky Star

Hey, they cant all be amazing.

Now, i admit that I became to hostile and aggressive as the exchange went on, and that i am now the bad guy of this conversation, but i do apologize to the good (wo)man from Boston (sorry, no idea what gender to assign you). I shouldn't have posted the private message you sent me, but the past, is the past, and no, i won't be doing it again. (Damn i love me the run on sentences tonight)
Still, i do not now, and frankly never will, understand the Style/substance argument that many make about anime (or for that matter, that the tau are anime, but thats a different rant, for a different board)



I suspect it's things like this that get anime afficionados frothing. Not that I'm one, just sayin'.

[Kesh]

I don't think either of you are making anyheadway with this argument. Mind dropping it, instead of sniping at each other?

[lisiecki]

wow

Thanks

I totally see the light now
If it hadn't have been for you.

Or for me apologizing, and pain saying they were done with it
this could have lasted


Well up until my last post i guess