[SWSE] Help with a big battle

[Tait Ransom]

We're wrapping up my campaign on Friday and my players will be helping defend a rebel base on Fangol (we're finishing up the WEG adventure Black Ice). I've worked up a final battle on the planet, but I'd like input ... too hard, too easy, needs more bad guys, etc.

The PCs' side is:

9th level Kel-dor scoundrel (smuggler)/jedi/jedi knight
9th level human scoundrel (tech specialist)
9th level human scout/bounty hunter
9th level human soldier
9th level human jedi/jedi knight
9th level human noble/officer
10 1st level rebel troops
1 1st level rebel troop with Atgar cannon
1 snowspeeder
2 tauntauns (for mounts)

The Imperials side is:
15 2nd level snowtroopers
1 2nd level snowtrooper with E-Web repeating blaster
2 AT-STs

I believe I should add to the Imperials, possibly a wave or two of snowtrooper reinforcements.

What do y'all think? Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[PaladinCA]

I'd double the number of snowtroopers and maybe give them a crack veteran snowtrooper commander that is Soldier 9. Have them arrive in two waves or something like that. YMMV

I'm still having to adjust some encounters on the fly from time to time so take my opinon with a grain of Hutt Spicey Salt. :D

[Epoch]

When you say "1st level" rebel troopers and "2nd level" snowtroopers, do you mean you're using non-standard stats and they're 1st level heroics and 2nd level heroics? Or are they 1st and 2nd level non-heroics? Or are they non-heroics that are CL 1 and 2, respectively?

I know that my role here is Mr. Stormtroopers-Aren't-Pushovers-Guys, but, as-written, I'd expect your Rebels to massacre the Imperials. I expect, actually, that all those squishy 1st level characters could stay at home and the 9th level folks could do the job of the killing just fine.

Let me know about the questions from the first paragraph, and I'll try to come up with some recommendations.

[David Foster Walrus]

It looks like you're going to need a lot more stormtroopers. Perhaps a couple of officers and some troopers with heavy weapons, and perhaps some scout troopers on speeder bikes? Your PCs are going to chew through the snowtroopers very quickly (probably using grenades and autofire), anybody sitting behind an E-Web is asking to be shot specifically (and the gun might get telekinetically stolen), and the AT-STs are going to be nasty but defeatable with glowsticks, force powers, and explosives.

[Epoch]

[T]he AT-STs are going to be nasty but defeatable with glowsticks, force powers, and explosives.

Also, the AT-STs are going to have a hell of a time, y'know, hitting 9th level people. They attack at +6, and I'd expect 9th level characters to have Reflex defenses that are 22ish at the low end and 30ish at the high end, so they're probably hitting under 1/5th of the time, on average.

On the other hand, they do 4d10x2 damage and 3d10x2 damage, averaging a very respectable 44 and 33 damage, so, believe it or not, this may be a case where Aid Another doesn't suck! Stormtroopers do 13.5 damage on average and don't hit very well, so detail, oh, say, 10 Stormtroopers to each AT-ST for some combined arms goodness. A block of 5 Stormtroopers aids each of the two big guns on the AT-ST, and then thoise guns attack at a rather more respectable +16 to hit. This gives the PC's an interesting tactical choice: kill the Stormtroopers to reduce the attack bonus of the AT-ST, or take the tougher but potentially more rewarding challenge of straight up attacking the AT-ST and get all of its fire capability out of the way at once.

AT-STs actually aren't spectacularly tough. They have 120 hp and DR 10, which, eh, is by no means awful, but combined with low Ref defense and the fact that you appear to have two DR-defeating lightsaber characters is probably no tougher than most of your level 9 characters, and doubtless less tough than a level 9 character who focuses on taking hits/not being hit.

[Tait Ransom]

When you say "1st level" rebel troopers and "2nd level" snowtroopers, do you mean you're using non-standard stats and they're 1st level heroics and 2nd level heroics? Or are they 1st and 2nd level non-heroics? Or are they non-heroics that are CL 1 and 2, respectively?

Sorry about that ... I meant CL 1 and CL 2. I'm using the basic Rebel Trooper (CL 1) and Heavy Stormtrooper (CL2) stats on pages 280 and 279 of the SWSE main book.

[David Foster Walrus]

Also, the AT-STs are going to have a hell of a time, y'know, hitting 9th level people. They attack at +6, and I'd expect 9th level characters to have Reflex defenses that are 22ish at the low end and 30ish at the high end, so they're probably hitting under 1/5th of the time, on average.

Let us not forget that an AT-ST is Huge, and a 9th-level force monkey could use Move Object to tip it on its back (and presumably a gaggle of snowtroopers or the other AT-ST). The character could even sustain the power to use it as moving cover, a multi-use bludgeon, an excavating tool, etc.

IIRC, they have grenades and autofire capability, so that'll take care of those Rebel mooks in no time.

On the other hand, they do 4d10x2 damage and 3d10x2 damage, averaging a very respectable 44 and 33 damage, so, believe it or not, this may be a case where Aid Another doesn't suck!

Too right, but am I correct in thinking of a rule preventing footsoldiers without additional feats from aiding vehicle gunners? The E-Web may be in a similar position (presuming the snowtroopers are disciplined enough to climb over the horrifying mound of would-be gunners with low initiative scores).

[Epoch]

Let us not forget that an AT-ST is Huge, and a 9th-level force monkey could use Move Object to tip it on its back (and presumably a gaggle of snowtroopers or the other AT-ST). The character could even sustain the power to use it as moving cover, a multi-use bludgeon, an excavating tool, etc.

Well, not a multi-use bludgeon, since you can't sustain Move Object if you use it to deal damage. But otherwise, sure.

IIRC, they have grenades and autofire capability, so that'll take care of those Rebel mooks in no time.

They do have grenades and autofire capability. Then again, Stormtroopers also have autofire capability. The Rebels would be wise to spread out (as would the Stormtroopers).

Too right, but am I correct in thinking of a rule preventing footsoldiers without additional feats from aiding vehicle gunners?

I am not aware of such a rule, and a quick read through the aid another sections of both the normal combat and the vehicle combat sections of the core book didn't reveal such a rule to me. That's not to say that it doesn't exist somewhere.

In Starship scale, presumably a footsoldier would be unable to aid another because personal weapons are never in range for anything, but this would be at personal scale.

The E-Web may be in a similar position (presuming the snowtroopers are disciplined enough to climb over the horrifying mound of would-be gunners with low initiative scores).

By the way, note that the E-Web requires a two-man firing team (see SWSE, p 125).

[Epoch]

Sorry about that ... I meant CL 1 and CL 2. I'm using the basic Rebel Trooper (CL 1) and Heavy Stormtrooper (CL2) stats on pages 280 and 279 of the SWSE main book.

Okay!

Heavy Stormtroopers are armed with light repeating blasters, which is interesting. Are you going with that?

Basic Rebel Troopers are horrifyingly squishy (Ref 13, hp 10), so they are going to die in huge quantities if the Imperials focus any attention on them. Cover or Improved Cover would help them a lot.

If you do arm the Heavy Stormtroopers with light repeating blasters, they're going to be pretty hellish on anyone who suffers damage from "missed" area attacks (ie, people without Evasion or Deflect), and utterly unable to harm those who don't take damage from "missed" area attacks. Basically, Heavy Stormtroopers who can't brace hit Ref 10 on an 8+, and those who can brace hit on a 5+, so you're expecting between 65% and 80% of them to hit in any given round, doing half damage, and with, say, 10 of them firing, that works out to about 47.25 damage per round. With 20 hit points and 16 Ref defense, they're pretty durable against the fire of those Rebel Troopers, and probably survive a fairly sizable minority of any single PC's attack.

I mentioned the combined arms tactics of stormtroopers plus AT-ST in my responses to hurtfulpotato, above.

I think that your real challenge here will be creating an enemy that can challenge the PC's without effortlessly wiping out their Rebel Trooper allies.

My guess is that 20 to 30 Heavy Stormtroopers, plus the AT-STs, would challenge the PC's, plus or minus the following factors:

1. Do the PC's heavily feature people who are immune or nearly immune to area attacks?

2. Do the PC's have one or more attacks which have a good chance of one-shotting the AT-STs? (Move Object, maybe Mind Trick the operator of the AT-ST into fleeing, or prepared traps are the only things I can think of off-hand).

3. Do the PC's have repeatable access to good area-effect attacks that will be able to reliably target more than about two Heavy Stormtroopers at once?


EDIT: Actually, how about 10 Heavy Stormtroopers and maybe 20 Stormtroopers? It's a little more tactically interesting, the normal Stormtroopers are better targets for people who do low damage like the Rebel Troopers or Force users who like Force Slam or whatnot, and the Stormtroopers could support the AT-STs while the Heavy Troopers look for positions to stand in, brace, and then start raining blaster death down from.

EDIT 2: Who's driving the snowspeeder?

[Tait Ransom]

Okay!

Heavy Stormtroopers are armed with light repeating blasters, which is interesting. Are you going with that?

Yes. Light repeaters seemed like the best way to make the troopers a threat without them being an overwhelming one.

Basic Rebel Troopers are horrifyingly squishy (Ref 13, hp 10), so they are going to die in huge quantities if the Imperials focus any attention on them. Cover or Improved Cover would help them a lot.

Most of them will start off in a trench or behind rock formations.

If you do arm the Heavy Stormtroopers with light repeating blasters, they're going to be pretty hellish on anyone who suffers damage from "missed" area attacks (ie, people without Evasion or Deflect), and utterly unable to harm those who don't take damage from "missed" area attacks. Basically, Heavy Stormtroopers who can't brace hit Ref 10 on an 8+, and those who can brace hit on a 5+, so you're expecting between 65% and 80% of them to hit in any given round, doing half damage, and with, say, 10 of them firing, that works out to about 47.25 damage per round. With 20 hit points and 16 Ref defense, they're pretty durable against the fire of those Rebel Troopers, and probably survive a fairly sizable minority of any single PC's attack.

I mentioned the combined arms tactics of stormtroopers plus AT-ST in my responses to hurtfulpotato, above.

I think that your real challenge here will be creating an enemy that can challenge the PC's without effortlessly wiping out their Rebel Trooper allies.

Good points ... I'll keep this in mind.

My guess is that 20 to 30 Heavy Stormtroopers, plus the AT-STs, would challenge the PC's, plus or minus the following factors:

1. Do the PC's heavily feature people who are immune or nearly immune to area attacks?

The two jedi can deflect autofire and the bounty hunter has evasion.

2. Do the PC's have one or more attacks which have a good chance of one-shotting the AT-STs? (Move Object, maybe Mind Trick the operator of the AT-ST into fleeing, or prepared traps are the only things I can think of off-hand).

I believe only one jedi has move object.

3. Do the PC's have repeatable access to good area-effect attacks that will be able to reliably target more than about two Heavy Stormtroopers at once?

One jedi has Force Slam, a lot of Force points and Force Point Recovery (1). Most of the party will have access to grenades.


EDIT: Actually, how about 10 Heavy Stormtroopers and maybe 20 Stormtroopers? It's a little more tactically interesting, the normal Stormtroopers are better targets for people who do low damage like the Rebel Troopers or Force users who like Force Slam or whatnot, and the Stormtroopers could support the AT-STs while the Heavy Troopers look for positions to stand in, brace, and then start raining blaster death down from.

That's easy enough to work in ... I can use snowtrooper and sandtrooper minis for the HS so I'll be able to tell them apart.

EDIT 2: Who's driving the snowspeeder?

That remains to be seen. The scoundrel/jedi, bounty hunter and noble/officer are all trained in pilot, so I could see any of them. They may hand it off to some troopers and I'll assume it has the standard stats as per the book.

Thanks for the observations ... my players will appreciate it!

[Ifshnit]

Good points in this thread. If someone does fly the speeder, I'd add a flying target or two on the Imperial side. Make the ground-based PCs work to take out the AT-STs. Give the speeder pilot something else to worry about. I'd also give the E-Web operator(s) pretty good cover to force the PCs to use some tactics to get at them rather than just concentrating fire in the first round and wiping them out.

[Epoch]

That remains to be seen. The scoundrel/jedi, bounty hunter and noble/officer are all trained in pilot, so I could see any of them. They may hand it off to some troopers and I'll assume it has the standard stats as per the book.

This might or might not prove to be a big deal. I don't know the snowspeeder stats, but a relatively high level heroic character, particularly if they have Vehicular combat, can be very durable in a vehicle, and for someone like the Noble/Officer, it might greatly improve his damage output.