[4e] Cloud of Daggers--what is it good for?

[Kid Twist]

I've had two people play wizards with the Cloud of Daggers spell in my game, and maybe it's just me, but it seems like a pretty lame power. It only affects one square, and it doesn't last all that long or do that much damage the next turn. It's not that it's underpowered, but it seems like if what I wanted to do was control the battlefield, creating a five-foot area of force daggers only seems to be useful in narrow hallways, and many of the places we've had encounters in were open areas, so people would just move around it.

Thunderwave is pretty wonderful, and the other at-wills seem awesome. Why does Cloud of Daggers seem so useless as crowd control?

[Naxuul]

Well if you're only fighting in open fields a spell that's mainly focused on taking advantage of terrain restrictions is of course going to suck. It's also a spell allies can make use of, knocking enemies into it.

Though IMO, i'd put it above Ray of Frost and Magic Missile both of which don't inspire much love from me.

-Naxuul

[Cortani]

At +2 wisdom it will do more damage than magic missile (the picture becomes more complex with magic items and the epic tier) unless the target can get an out of turn move.

Complete accuracy for the secondary damage is not to be scoffed at either, especially what with minions.

Using the orb encounter power allows for slightly better CC, especially in close quarters.

[Katsue]

I've had two people play wizards with the Cloud of Daggers spell in my game, and maybe it's just me, but it seems like a pretty lame power. It only affects one square, and it doesn't last all that long or do that much damage the next turn.
It does more single target damage than any other Wizard at-Will and it autokills minions.

[Nahat Anoj]

I've had two people play wizards with the Cloud of Daggers spell in my game, and maybe it's just me, but it seems like a pretty lame power. It only affects one square, and it doesn't last all that long or do that much damage the next turn. It's not that it's underpowered, but it seems like if what I wanted to do was control the battlefield, creating a five-foot area of force daggers only seems to be useful in narrow hallways, and many of the places we've had encounters in were open areas, so people would just move around it.

Thunderwave is pretty wonderful, and the other at-wills seem awesome. Why does Cloud of Daggers seem so useless as crowd control?
Cloud of Daggers isn't so bad for an Orb wizard, particularly if the Wizard has a buddy who can push the monster into or immobilize the monster in the area of effect (probably a Fighter dude with Tide of Iron, Sweeping Strike, Combat Challenge, etc.).

[Kid Twist]

Well if you're only fighting in open fields a spell that's mainly focused on taking advantage of terrain restrictions is of course going to suck. It's also a spell allies can make use of, knocking enemies into it.
-Naxuul

Not all combats have awesome terrain built into them, and the only method of moving other creatures around on the board available to all characters at all times is Bull Rush, which doesn't do damage on a hit. Yeah, it might work on minions, but so does Thunderwave, and it hits more of them. That, and minions usually aren't a problem to take out anyhow; as long as the others hit, they're gone. Dispatching them isn't a problem.


At +2 wisdom it will do more damage than magic missile (the picture becomes more complex with magic items and the epic tier) unless the target can get an out of turn move. .

It can do more damage, but it's not likely, and even then, the damage is amlmost negligible. You'd need a pretty large Wisdom modifier to have it reliably do more damage.

It does more single target damage than any other Wizard at-Will and it autokills minions.

How does 1d6 plus Intelligence do more damage than 2d4 plus Intelligence? Again, you'd need a large Wisdom modifier in order for the secondary attack to reliably do more damage.

[HeridFel]

Average expected damage for 1d6 = 3.5.
Average expected damage for 2d4 = 5.

The Intelligence is the same in both, so it doesn't affect the total. It's clear that you only need to have a Wisdom modifier of +2 to have a higher expected damage, and since many wizards will be increasing Wisdom to help with Orbs or a couple of other wizard spells with secondary effects based on Wisdom, it's not unreasonable to assume a +2 modifier.

On the Thunderwave front, Thunderwave also is closer range, and hits your allies within the area. Most wizards will be staying out of the thick of combat. They're used for different things (Thunderwave also hits Fortitude, which can be advantageous).

[Kid Twist]

Average expected damage for 1d6 = 3.5.
Average expected damage for 2d4 = 5.

The Intelligence is the same in both, so it doesn't affect the total. It's clear that you only need to have a Wisdom modifier of +2 to have a higher expected damage, and since many wizards will be increasing Wisdom to help with Orbs or a couple of other wizard spells with secondary effects based on Wisdom, it's not unreasonable to assume a +2 modifier.


Yes, but that lead with a +2 modifier is only a .5 difference, which translates to about one hit point every other turn. Is that even noticiable damage?

My main concern doesn't stem with the damage--it clearly keeps up with the other at-will powers on that front. My complaint is that, for what is supposed to be a recommended control power, it doesn't do a good job at controlling at all. It might be somewhat useful in corridors, but what map has a single five-foot choke point that this spell could control? It's even less useful since diagonals are one space of movement, which means it doesn't take a lot to get around one (I don't have a problem with diagonal movement, btw).

As for the insta-kill minion bit, that's pretty much negligible. Anyone can insta-kill a minion if they hit, and no minion is going to go running headfirst into a whirling cloud of daggers. Unless you're in some narrow corridor, the spell doesn't seem to control much of anything due to the fact that it can be avoided so easily, and in narrow spaces it seems like a defender would do a much better job at preventing others from passing than Cloud of Daggers would.

[bv728]

It might be somewhat useful in corridors, but what map has a single five-foot choke point that this spell could control? It's even less useful since diagonals are one space of movement, which means it doesn't take a lot to get around one (I don't have a problem with diagonal movement, btw).

It denys a square to the enemy; that's pretty much control to me. Keep the fighter from getting flanked, disrupt formations when enemies have to-hit bonuses from allies, and the like.

[wingedcoyote]

Yes, but that lead with a +2 modifier is only a .5 difference, which translates to about one hit point every other turn. Is that even noticiable damage?

Lots of wizard builds -- almost certainly the strongest ones, in fact -- start with a 16 or even 18 in Wisdom and pump it continuously. The damage will be decent.

My main concern doesn't stem with the damage--it clearly keeps up with the other at-will powers on that front. My complaint is that, for what is supposed to be a recommended control power, it doesn't do a good job at controlling at all. It might be somewhat useful in corridors, but what map has a single five-foot choke point that this spell could control? It's even less useful since diagonals are one space of movement, which means it doesn't take a lot to get around one (I don't have a problem with diagonal movement, btw).

Like many wizard spells, it really does suffer on an open field. Start more fights indoors. :) If you want to make it a little more useful, you could invest in an Orb of Inevitable Continuance.

As for the insta-kill minion bit, that's pretty much negligible. Anyone can insta-kill a minion if they hit, and no minion is going to go running headfirst into a whirling cloud of daggers.

I don't understand this part. Any power will insta-kill a minion... if it hits. Cloud of Daggers will insta-kill a minion whether it hits or not. As soon as they start their turn they'll take damage and die.

[Deadmanwalking]

As for the insta-kill minion bit, that's pretty much negligible. Anyone can insta-kill a minion if they hit, and no minion is going to go running headfirst into a whirling cloud of daggers.

Uh, Cloud of Daggers doesn't need to hit. Even on a miss, unless they can move out-of-turn, they'll take the damage at the start of their turn and die. I had this pointed out to me recently and...it's not a bad point at all.

Cloud of Daggers isn't a spectacular control spell, you're right. This has to do with it being an At-Will, and of the At-Will Powers it's by far the best at controlling terrain. Thunderwave is cool, but it just keeps things away from you, not away from flanking the Fighter, y'know?

[Mr Jack]

Yes, but that lead with a +2 modifier is only a .5 difference, which translates to about one hit point every other turn. Is that even noticiable damage?

Remember it does damage on a miss too. And, in tight corridors you can completely shut off areas of the map to minions.

I agree it's not a great control power, I think an at will grease type power could be better, but it's a good at-will. In my experience (Human Wizard) it and scorching burst where my goto powers whereas Thunderwave I used just once, and will probably swap out for Ray Of Frost.

[Roger]

Why does Cloud of Daggers seem so useless as crowd control?
Because it's not a crowd control spell.


Cheers,
Roger

[Yakk]

Average expected damage for 1d6 = 3.5.
Average expected damage for 2d4 = 5.

The Intelligence is the same in both, so it doesn't affect the total. It's clear that you only need to have a Wisdom modifier of +2 to have a higher expected damage, and since many wizards will be increasing Wisdom to help with Orbs or a couple of other wizard spells with secondary effects based on Wisdom, it's not unreasonable to assume a +2 modifier.

It is better than that.

Suppose you have an X% chance of hitting with both attacks.

Cloud does: 1d6+int+wis on a hit, and wis on a miss. (3.5+int+wis)*X% + (wis)(1-X%)

Magic Missile does 2d4+int on a hit, and 0 on a miss. (5+int)*X%

Cloud: (3.5+int)*X% + Wis
Missile: (5+int)*X%

Cloud - Missile: Wis - 1.5*X%

Suppose a +3 wisdom, and a 2/3 chance to hit.

Cloud - Missile = 2 higher damage, per round, with Cloud.

Now, add in the ability to shove creatures around into or through the Cloud, or drop it in bottlenecks to force damage on lots of opponents. . .

[James McMurray]

You need a +4 Wisdom to deal more damage with Cloud of Dagger if you assume that the MM wizard shells out the 680gp for Bracers of Mighty Shot. At higher levels he might be trading those in for Bracers of Defense, but at only 680gp for a3rd level item, they're definitely a factor in the equation.

Cloud of Daggers + Inescapable Force rocks against insubstantial foes. It's almost guaranteed 1d10 + Wisdom damage, plus a chance at 1d6 + 1d10 + Intelligence damage as well. If you're coupled with a few people with forced movement powers it can go even higher as they get shoved in and out of the cloud.

[Belphanior]

It's also pretty brutal on swarms, because their vulnerability to area attacks will probably be factored into both damage applications. Assuming 18 INT and 14 WIS (typical scores for a level 1 wizard I'd say), a swarm will take about 20 or 30 damage from each casting, depending on how vulnerable it is.

Not bad for an at-will.

[Yakk]

You need a +4 Wisdom to deal more damage with Cloud of Dagger if you assume that the MM wizard shells out the 680gp for Bracers of Mighty Shot. At higher levels he might be trading those in for Bracers of Defense, but at only 680gp for a3rd level item, they're definitely a factor in the equation.

Cloud of Daggers + Inescapable Force rocks against insubstantial foes. It's almost guaranteed 1d10 + Wisdom damage, plus a chance at 1d6 + 1d10 + Intelligence damage as well. If you're coupled with a few people with forced movement powers it can go even higher as they get shoved in and out of the cloud.

You forgot miss damage.

(3.5 + Int)*hit% + Wis
-
(7.0 + int)*hit%
= Wis - 3.5*hit%

With a 50% hit%, the Cloud of Daggers spell still does more damage than a MM Wizard with Bracers of Mighty Shot, on a average damage per-action basis, with +2 wisdom bonus.

(Crits do boost MM a bit over CoD, but the difference is small).

And, as noted, every shift power that can move a creature over the CoD square results in extra damage done. And it has tactical uses. . .

[Katsue]

If you have a Warlord in the party who hands out basic attacks, Magic Missile is better. If you have a Fighter in the party with Tide of Iron and Shield Push, Cloud of Daggers is better.

[James McMurray]

If you have a Warlord in the party who hands out basic attacks, Magic Missile is better. If you have a Fighter in the party with Tide of Iron and Shield Push, Cloud of Daggers is better.

I don't know. That sounds an awful lot like you're trying to get us to view the game as a whole rather than pull it apart piece by piece and then put each piece next to another one under a microscope. Sounds kinda sacrilegious. ;)

[wingedcoyote]

If you have a Warlord in the party who hands out basic attacks, Magic Missile is better. If you have a Fighter in the party with Tide of Iron and Shield Push, Cloud of Daggers is better.

And if you have a DM who allows Dragon material, forget'em both because Illusionary Ambush is better. :)

[HeridFel]

Better yet - be a human wizard and choose 3 spells. You can get one that targets each save now, thanks to that Dragon article and Illusionary Ambush. Psychic Lock just became really great.

[wingedcoyote]

Better yet - be a human wizard and choose 3 spells. You can get one that targets each save now, thanks to that Dragon article and Illusionary Ambush. Psychic Lock just became really great.

Yep. Personally, I think your extra pick for Human should be whichever of Scorching Burst and Thunderwave you weren't going to take anyway. Unless you're going to completely dump Wisdom, in which case it's a little harder to pick. :)

[Mr Jack]

And if you have a DM who allows Dragon material, forget'em both because Illusionary Ambush is better. :)

Oh god.

What does that do?

[Midgardener]

Illusory Ambush Wizard Attack 1
You create an illusion of swirling spectral assailants that swarm over your enemy.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Illusion, Implement, Psychic
Standard Action - Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.

[Mr Jack]

? - that doesn't seem so bad?

[wingedcoyote]

? - that doesn't seem so bad?

It isn't broken or anything, it's just really good. You'll always have an enemy whose to-hit you'd like to debuff, so it's a lot less situational than Ray or Cloud. Damage isn't spectacular, but targeting Will will usually make it more likely to hit than the others.

At level 11 it gets a lot better, because Psychic Lock changes that -2 to a -4 against your target's first attack.

[Mr Jack]

It isn't broken or anything, it's just really good. You'll always have an enemy whose to-hit you'd like to debuff, so it's a lot less situational than Ray or Cloud. Damage isn't spectacular, but targeting Will will usually make it more likely to hit than the others.

Will is lower than the other defences? I did not know that. How much? What order do they fall in? I knew AC was highest, but I figured the others balanced out across critters.

At level 11 it gets a lot better, because Psychic Lock changes that -2 to a -4 against your target's first attack.

That would change matters! I'm not convinced I'd rather take -2 to attacks over the other options.

[James McMurray]

Will is usually lower than AC, but not necessarily lower than the others. Each monster will have different strengths and weaknesses. I believe someone posted some statiststics over at ENWorl, but that just shows the MM trends. It doesn't point to what's going to happen in any specific campaign.

[Rook]

Will is lower than the other defences? I did not know that. How much? What order do they fall in? I knew AC was highest, but I figured the others balanced out across critters.A poster named kerbarian posted the following linked summary of statistics from the Monster Manual. I won't summarize it all, but it does appear that Will is, on average, the lowest monster defense at all tiers of play:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=229092

There's about a 3-4 difference between AC and Will, a couple of points between Fort and Will and a single point between Reflex and Will, on average.

[Mr Jack]

Ta

[macd21]

Cloud of daggers can be used to block off larger corridors, with the help of one or two PCs. A defender with a cloud of daggers next to him can block off a 2-square wide corridor, for example.

Even in open terrain, it can be useful to help protect other PCs from being flanked. And its probably one of the better 'precision' powers - when you can't drop AoE attacks without hitting other players, cloud of daggers does as much or more damage than magic missile, while blocking off a square from the enemy.

And the ability to autokill minions is brilliant :)

[Yo! Master]

And the ability to autokill minions is brilliant :)

Especially for party's Wizard who most often than not can't hit the wide side of a burn. He's even gotten to using it for most of his attacks now because of that & even was the one to do the most damage & kills in an encounter last session when we all just couldn't hit. :D

[Kid Twist]

I don't know. I'm hearing the arguments, but I guess it just doesn't look like a good spell to me. For me, there seem to be some logical problems.

First, there's the "control a corridor" issue. How many fights take place in a corridor? It can, sure, but if I was a DM and the players kept hunkering in corridors, the bad guys would catch on and not go in there.

The "prevent flanking" argument works, but if I use the spell like that, I'm also probably not doing the damage it can do because if there's an enemy already behind someone that I can attack, then chances are the enemy has already moved and attacked. I can use it preventatively, but it doesn't help with damage, and the defender or whoever can still get attacked on seven other points.

The "It's not a crowd control spell" argument is valid, but it sure looks like it wants to be a crowd control spell, and controlling five feet or space doesn't look like control to me--it looks like a watered-down version of an actual control spell, which debuffs a person or controls an area.

And that's probably what my dislike boils down to: the advantages it provides don't really seem that important. A point of extra damage? One square people can't run through? A kill on a minion that others could kill anyhow? I just don't care about a point here or there, I guess. And all of the places where being able to control one square can really help don't seem like likely places for a fight. It just doesn't fit my idea of a control spell.

I appreciate everyone's help with this. Thanks for the input. =)

[Wolfwood2]

It isn't broken or anything, it's just really good. You'll always have an enemy whose to-hit you'd like to debuff, so it's a lot less situational than Ray or Cloud. Damage isn't spectacular, but targeting Will will usually make it more likely to hit than the others.

At level 11 it gets a lot better, because Psychic Lock changes that -2 to a -4 against your target's first attack.

And... this isn't in any way a mechanical advantage, but you know how you can chose whether you killed an opponent or knocked them out when they get to 0 hitpoints? From a roleplaying and in-game perspective, it's a lot easier for me to designate Illusory Ambush as my wizard's 'non-lethal' takedown and my other attack power as the killing power. Sure by the game rules I could knock folks out with Scorching Burst, but it's not as easy to justify.

[braincraft]

AB-SO-LUTE-LY NO-THING!

Huh! All right!

CLO-O-OUD OF DAG-GERS! WHA-AT IS IT GOOD FOR?

Good God almighty!

[Gloombunny]

First, there's the "control a corridor" issue. How many fights take place in a corridor? It can, sure, but if I was a DM and the players kept hunkering in corridors, the bad guys would catch on and not go in there.

Cloud of Daggers is best for games that spend a lot of time in dungeons with relatively cramped quarters.

Magic Missile, with its range 20, is best for games that don't.

[macd21]

And that's probably what my dislike boils down to: the advantages it provides don't really seem that important. A point of extra damage? One square people can't run through? A kill on a minion that others could kill anyhow? I just don't care about a point here or there, I guess. And all of the places where being able to control one square can really help don't seem like likely places for a fight. It just doesn't fit my idea of a control spell.


Its the advantages that are important. Its not just one advantage - its the total benefit you get from the spell. It does high damage, blocks off a square and autokills minions. All three together work wonders.

Its usefulness in controlling areas is not limited to closed areas. When out in the open, it's very easy for minions to swarm over a party. Usually the party will form some kind of battle line to try and avoid this. If possible they will anchor their line with some terrain, but out in the open they are unlikely to be able to cover both ends. So a minion scoots around the side of the line and flanks someone. He may get in one hit - before being ripped to shreds by the daggers :D that square is then impassable for any other minions, making it far more difficult for them to flank the enemy. If the wizard wants, he coulud use an orb to increase the duration of the cloud for a turn.

I've found that little bonuses like this can be critical to success for a PC party. With experience, the wizard can pick up plenty of encounter and daily AoE attacks with which to blast multiple oponents. CoD works wonders as an at-will for picking off isolated minions and cutting off terrain.

[Starfall]

AB-SO-LUTE-LY NO-THING!

Huh! All right!

CLO-O-OUD OF DAG-GERS! WHA-AT IS IT GOOD FOR?

Good God almighty!

I can't believe it took this long for someone to do that. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title. :)

[braincraft]

I can't believe it took this long for someone to do that. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title. :)

I even waited a day, because I was so sure that the joke would have already been made twice by the time I hit post.