[4e] Weapon proficiencies as skills?

[dread_sigil]

One thing I never quite got - especially in 4e - is why weapons don't have skills associated with them. In 3e we had the BAB, and in 4e it seems we just have the "1/2 level" bonus and proficiency bonuses.

But what's the reasoning behind not having weapons as skills like any other? Why not just have (d20+weapon skill+modifiers) vs AC as the attack roll instead of a Str or Dex roll?

I get that certain classes may not be able to use weapons, and the existing proficiency feats could remain as "on/off switches" to let them access certain weapon skills. And you could still keep the 1/2 level bonus so that the modifiers on the attack roll still scale up as the character increases in level (though I can't for the life of me find any rules for how to increase skill level in the books beyond that if you train in them you get +5 and if you don't then you get no bonus beyond your ability bonus. Surely you can increase skills over time in smaller increments?)

[Kylarus]

I've seen it done before. BESM20 has attack and defence skills. They add to your defence or attack roll in a particular combat, such as ranged, melee or unarmed. The problem is that the numbers associated become stupidly high. It removed the need for a BAB and made those reliant on BAB obsolete. A wizard or other high skill point class could toss a couple points into it and be as good as a fighter. As they were crossclass skills for everyone, it meant that the fighter, in order to stay better at combat than the wizard or bard would have to spend all his skill points into combat and none into the necessities, such as spot or listen. A wizard generally had more skill points than he knew what to do with and bard and rogue weren't far behind. They could afford to drop a couple into combat skills every level, alternating between defences and offences.

[dread_sigil]

Well 4e has shaken the skills up a fair bit now so I don't think we'd have the same problems here.

[Longinus Albinus]

Weapon proficiencies already work same way as the skills in 4e. Only difference is that the proficiency bonus for weapons is not as high as the trained bonus for skills.

[DDogwood]

Weapon proficiencies already work same way as the skills in 4e. Only difference is that the proficiency bonus for weapons is not as high as the trained bonus for skills.

This.

[DocTheWeasel]

Weapon proficiencies ARE skill bonuses. They are just static values.

I think 4ed tries to keep away from values that scale up as you level. The developers didn't want there to be a 15+ point difference in skill values in higher level characters. That's why the training bonus is +5 rather than something that increases.

[dread_sigil]

I guess so...

Though I'd still like to know how one increases (or even learns) skills after chargen...

[StormCrow42]

Though I'd still like to know how one increases (or even learns) skills after chargen...

Well all your skills increase as you level. There is also the Skill Focus feat, plus raising the attribute the skill is based on. To gain new skills, either Skill Training or a multiclass feat (which includes training in one skill).

[Sukael]

Well all your skills increase as you level. There is also the Skill Focus feat, plus raising the attribute the skill is based on. To gain new skills, either Skill Training or a multiclass feat (which includes training in one skill).

Especially the latter, in my experience - in the group I'm currently in, five out of six people have taken a multiclass feat to get the extra skill and ancillary bonus.

[Alvin Frewer]

Though I'd still like to know how one increases (or even learns) skills after chargen...

Skill Training Feat gives you a skill (any skill) at trained +5. This is how you learn new skills. Additionally, taking a Multiclass Feat will provide a new trained skill.

Skill Focus Feat gives you a +3 to a skill. This is how you increase you make sure your character is even better that the normal training.

Skills will improve as the Ability stats they are based on improve.

Otherwise, skills gain the same +1/2 Level bonus that almost everything else does. This makes it so all characters are learning something from their adventures together. The two Feats are good options if you want your character to learn dramatically more than that.