What to do 4e. Making a save.

[rickyh]

Ok say the pcs are sliding down a flat surface incline or 45 degree angle with a slippery substance. At the end there is a pit that covers a 5ft square. Also around the square is the next level so they could possibly jump over the pit or somehow avoid falling into it.

1.)Would it be a saving throws like the book has for going over the edge?
2.)An acrobatics check?
3.)Or a "skill-less"dex check?

I'm thinking it would be be the first one with with a -2 (DMs best friend) modifier for the slippery substance so 1-11 they fail, 12-20 they manage to jump over to the ledge.

The only thing is, it isn't plausible for them to fall prone right before the pit because its on a smooth surface with slippery substance on it, and they'll likely have other PCS behind them tumbling down. So since they need to make it to the other side, that why I'm asking would it be 2 or 3.

[Shawn Conard]

I'd imagine athletics might also be useful (since it covers climbing and jumping). And many traps are attacks vs. Reflex, so that's yet another option.

The saving throw option just sounds boring to me, since everyone has the same chance of success and it doesn't rely on character abilities that would otherwise seem like they should apply.

It's totally possible that you could let some combination of the above work. Just up the difficulty a tiny bit and give people time for one skill roll (or Eladrin teleport, etc.) before they have to deal with the pit.

[Badgerish]

I would run that as either an athletics/acrobatics test to jump over (1st choice), or a trap that makes and attack vs reflex (2nd choice).

Although if it's a trap that represents a real threat, it should award XP for bypassing it.

[Master Of Desaster]

I'd consider that this little point where you walk on thin ice ... or let's better say: Where boths sorts of rules might apply. I'd go for a mixture of Skill-Challenge & Trap.
Just you don't beat the trap by disabling it, but by surviving it.

So actually I'd use the that mixture like this (set the real values yourself)

Best case:
1) avoid falling prone (-> REF)
2) Jump across the leap (-> Acrobatics)
-> done.

failing 1) or 2)
- Grab something to avoid falling (-> REF)
- climb up and try jumping again if necessary. (-> Acrobatics)
Look until done.

So this is something between 2 and 4 rolls ... So I'd give it XP for a 3-roll Skill Challenge.
If Falling would make you end in a more harmful situation (like a spiked pit dealing damage or let it consume a healing source or two more.) I'd increase XP gained by a level or two.
And I'd arrange the place to give them the option to look down and see it - "whoo that was lucky we didn't fall down there ... would have been pretty nasty".

[Shadetree]

Eladrin teleport
athletics to grab the edge of the pit since it's only ~5ft wide (hard)
acrobatics to jump over it.(medium)

I'd make em do a x vs reflex or they fall prone and slide down at the top of the "ramp".

If prone they only have option 2 available(or 1 if Eladrin of course)


ETA: basically what Master of Desaster said.

[Alvin Frewer]

Assuming they are already on the slide (Attack against Reflex if it's a trap to get them onto the slide)

Save for them to avoid falling. That is, not jumping but grabbing a hold at the last second.

Athletics to jump across (maybe Acrobatics).

But my real what to do question is, what happens if they fail, and assuming this isn't do or die (it shouldn't be) do you want the group split up randomly for a particular reason?

[Yakk]

Acrobatics or Atheletics (trained or untrained) to pull something off to save yourself. If you pull that off, you are a-ok and in the place where you would want to be.

Save roll (why a penalty?!) to grab ahold of the ledge or something, and end up in a bad yet non-damaging situation.

If this is a trap, it should have made a vs Reflex attack to determine what it did.

...

Thematically, what do you want to have happened in this situation? Is it a damage-trap? A save-or-die trap (bad idea)? An encounter built around skill checks?

[Sablewyvern]

Thematically, what do you want to have happened in this situation? Is it a ... save-or-die trap (bad idea)?

A save-or-die trap isn't necessarily a bad idea -- it depends very much on context. If a group of 1st level PCs have good reason to believe the slide leads to a 300' drop down to a raging inferno and decide to jump on anyway, I'd have no qualms making it a save or die scenario.

[rickyh]

Assuming they are already on the slide (Attack against Reflex if it's a trap to get them onto the slide)

Save for them to avoid falling. That is, not jumping but grabbing a hold at the last second.

Athletics to jump across (maybe Acrobatics).

But my real what to do question is, what happens if they fail, and assuming this isn't do or die (it shouldn't be) do you want the group split up randomly for a particular reason?


Like sablewyvern, placing Pcs into do or die situations don't bother me, if the have proper warning and do it anyway. I have absolutely no problems with pc death and permanent pc death/penalties.

That said though, its not save or die outright but essentially what happens is they slide down a stairs into a pit. The pit leads (about 25' down, no falling damage) down into a dark room of quick sand which they will fall deep into (hip deep) and if their weapons are out must make a saving throw to keep hold of them. They will have roughly 6-8 rounds (each player taking their actions) to somehow get out or possibly someone above can toss down a rope. After the 6-8 rounds they will sink and will survive for a number of rounds = to their constitution mod. Finally death will occur. There will be some solid stone spots on solid sand that they'll have some chances to throw rope over, etc... and they have an eladrin who can teleport, etc... So I don't expect them to die, but there is obviously a threat of it.

[Yakk]

7+Level vs Reflex attack or fall into pit. Players with trained Athletics or Acrobatics get a +5 bonus to their defense.

3+Level vs Reflex attack or be disarmed.

Each round, a 4+Level Fortitude attack or lose a healing surge or action point to keep your self above the quicksand (other sacrifices, like per-encounter powers, can help). Once you are under the quicksand, use drowning rules. Players with trained Athletics get a +3 bonus to their Fortitude defense, and players suffer armor check penalties.

It takes 2 skill successes, with DC (15+Level/2) to get someone out of the quicksand (+/-5 for how good an idea it is). Failures just waste time (which lead to the drowning attacks). The use of encounter powers in a creative way counts as 1 to 2 skill successes towards getting someone out. The appropriate use of daily powers counts as 1 to 4 skill successes. At-will powers that might help should require an attack roll against DC 15+Level (+2 if the power is a WEAPON power or targets AC), and if they land generate 1 or 2 successes towards getting someone out. Repeated use of the same tactic should result in fewer successes and/or higher DCs as complications ensue.

How is that for a skill-challenge/trap mechanics for this trap? The party is likely to get out, but can lose some resources to the trap.

Note that LEVEL refers to the LEVEL of the trap, not the players. Higher level traps have slicker walls, less hand holds, harder to get out of quick sand, etc. Generally, you should place the players against traps near their level.

[rickyh]

7+Level vs Reflex attack or fall into pit. Players with trained Athletics or Acrobatics get a +5 bonus to their defense.

3+Level vs Reflex attack or be disarmed.

Each round, a 4+Level Fortitude attack or lose a healing surge or action point to keep your self above the quicksand (other sacrifices, like per-encounter powers, can help). Once you are under the quicksand, use drowning rules. Players with trained Athletics get a +3 bonus to their Fortitude defense, and players suffer armor check penalties.

It takes 2 skill successes, with DC (15+Level/2) to get someone out of the quicksand (+/-5 for how good an idea it is). Failures just waste time (which lead to the drowning attacks). The use of encounter powers in a creative way counts as 1 to 2 skill successes towards getting someone out. The appropriate use of daily powers counts as 1 to 4 skill successes. At-will powers that might help should require an attack roll against DC 15+Level (+2 if the power is a WEAPON power or targets AC), and if they land generate 1 or 2 successes towards getting someone out. Repeated use of the same tactic should result in fewer successes and/or higher DCs as complications ensue.

How is that for a skill-challenge/trap mechanics for this trap? The party is likely to get out, but can lose some resources to the trap.

Note that LEVEL refers to the LEVEL of the trap, not the players. Higher level traps have slicker walls, less hand holds, harder to get out of quick sand, etc. Generally, you should place the players against traps near their level.

Very diabolical Yakk. I like it.

[Alvin Frewer]

Yeah, Yakk's on the right track. This definitely sounds more involved than simply sliding down. It's a full on encounter, which means break out the trap rules.

[Yakk]

Oh, and people "on the ledge" suffer a Reflex+0 attack per round or fall. (same +5 for athletics/acrobatics).

Maybe even require 1 success to move from "on the ledge" to "at the door" (ie, out of the trap), and once at the door you require double successes to impact people in the pit.