[Any Edition] Does D&D play second fiddle?

[rickyh]

Alright last week I was told by a player they couldn't make the next session because "Wrath of the Lich King" comes out. Today a player in my lunch work group asked if it'd be cool for him to miss because he didn't get to play WoW last night and wants to make it up today to reach level 70 before Lich King comes out...

Is D&D anyone's primary hobby over MMOs anymore?

Even in other groups; WoW specfically and other MMOs get brought up and talked about when we break instead of the encounters and whats going on in the game. I remember people use to on our 5 and 10 minute breaks talking about the next encounter or the next battle taking place.

With D&D going electronic in many ways such as the character visualizer and online dungeon tool from DDI coming up is traditional D&D eroding and giving way?

[Kiero]

MMOs are shit. That was easy.

[ShanG]

I refuse to play MMOs. Not because I have anything against them in theory, but because in practice none of them manage to do anything I would enjoy spending time on.

[Yo! Master]

I don't really understand the point / premise of this thread...

Is it to look down on people who play & prefer, for whatever reason, some kind of BadWrongFun?


P.S. That said, i still feel obliged to roll my eyes at my friends who will get leave off their jobs for WotLK. ;)

[Phishtrader]

I don't like MMOs. I don't like CRPGs either. Actually, I don't like playing nearly as much as GMing and I haven't found any sort of computer game that recreates that sort of experience. Closest was Neverwinter Nights and that still fell short.

[MoogleEmpMog]

D&D is not close to being my primary hobby (it's somewhere around #4-6), but I certainly prefer it to MMOs, whose gameplay model does not interest me.

EDIT: Unlike the previous poster, however, I do like offline (console) RPGs and turn-based strategy games, and would probably request leave from a D&D session to play, for example, a new Civilization or Final Fantasy on launch day. If my job involved regular hours, I might well take a day off for either of those launches, too.

[rickyh]

I don't really understand the point / premise of this thread...

Is it to look down on people who play & prefer, for whatever reason, some kind of BadWrongFun?



The premise/point is: Do you see D&D playing 2nd fiddle to MMOs overall? I can remember when people were all excited about playing with their pals on the weekend with D&D. Now they seem to be excited to play an MMO on the weekend and are willing to cancel D&D sessions for raids etc... So for a person who plays both which do they prefer?

[The Eye]

I enjoyed City of Heroes and World of Warcraft when I played them; I'm not one of the people who thinks they are crap. In fact, given the free time, I've considered starting up WoW again. That said, I think D&D* has a lot more flexibility than WoW, and if I had to choose one or the other, I would go with D&D. I know of at least one guy in my gaming group, though, who I'm pretty sure would go the other direction.


*My preferred edition of D&D is 4th. Were it other editions, the decision would be a bit more difficult to make.

[Yo! Master]

The premise/point is: Do you see D&D playing 2nd fiddle to MMOs overall? I can remember when people were all excited about playing with their pals on the weekend with D&D. Now they seem to be excited to play an MMO on the weekend and are willing to cancel D&D sessions for raids etc... So for a person who plays both which do they prefer?

That seems to be the point of importance that some of the already answers seem to have missed then.

[noisms]

I don't know anybody who plays MMOs; threads like this make me feel weirdly out of touch.

[The Eye]

The premise/point is: Do you see D&D playing 2nd fiddle to MMOs overall? I can remember when people were all excited about playing with their pals on the weekend with D&D. Now they seem to be excited to play an MMO on the weekend and are willing to cancel D&D sessions for raids etc... So for a person who plays both which do they prefer?

One of the most irritating things about a D&D game I was running over the summer, and one of the reasons it fell apart, was one of the players was obsessed with WoW and her guild. There was one particular session where, when it wasn't her turn in a combat, she would sneak off to the other room not to play WoW, but to look at the chat log of her guild that was raiding at the time. She ended up cutting the session short (we were playing at her house), saying that she had some stuff she needed to do...

I still don't exactly know how to react to that.

[Yo! Master]

One of the most irritating things about a D&D game I was running over the summer, and one of the reasons it fell apart, was one of the players was obsessed with WoW and her guild. There was one particular session where, when it wasn't her turn in a combat, she would sneak off to the other room not to play WoW, but to look at the chat log of her guild that was raiding at the time. She ended up cutting the session short (we were playing at her house), saying that she had some stuff she needed to do...

I still don't exactly know how to react to that.

Kill her & take her stuff, obviously.


And bad players are not directly WoW's or any other MMORG's fault. :p

[joenr76]

1. D&D is not my primary hobby, far from it.
2. i don't play MMO's. For various reason, but mainly because i hate to pay twice for playing a game (I'll leave that rant for another time) and because i just don't have the time.

As an aside: a friend of mine said he couldn't stay over in the hospital when he's GF had given birth because of WotLK. I hope he was joking.:eek: (*)



(*) I'm sure he was, but it's funnier this way. ;)

[The Eye]

Kill her & take her stuff, obviously.

Nah. I just won't play D&D with her. Or pretty much anything else. I feel there is a deeper issue there than her wanting to play WoW.

And bad players are not directly WoW's or any other MMORG's fault. :p

She wasn't a bad player, she was actually great. But she was an absent player. And it's pretty undeniable that it was related to WoW... she was skipping out on the game to play it.

[Yo! Master]

She wasn't a bad player, she was actually great. But she was an absent player. And it's pretty undeniable that it was related to WoW... she was skipping out on the game to play it.

An absent player still is a problem player (the term i should have used above). If it wasn't WoW it might have been something else; symptom not root cause.

[Imban]

MMOs and D&D fill vastly different roles in my entertainment. MMOs are things that I hop on during the middle of the night, or when a friend asks me to, or when I'm just feeling the itch to murder some monsters. D&D involves a good deal more planning and is something I look forward to a good deal more. They don't really compete with each other, and I rarely find myself in the position where I'm playing an MMORPG in the middle of a gaming session.

(I found myself doing it once, recently, because we got into one of those combats where, for some reason, no one could be arsed to take their action within five minutes of their turn coming up. After the first round I started playing Grand Chase and still managed to respond faster than the average player in the game.)

I guess if I had to get rid of one it'd be MMOs, though. I can always play offline video games instead to scratch most of those itches, I'd just miss playing with my friends sometimes instead of just by myself.

[The Eye]

An absent player still is a problem player (the term i should have used above). If it wasn't WoW it might have been something else; symptom not root cause.

Was she absent because of WoW, or was WoW there because she wanted to be absent?

Based on my experience with the person in question, who I had known for a while before the D&D game and session in question, I have every reason to believe it was the former. Based on your complete lack of knowledge of the person, and a theory you formulated and have a personal stake in, you think it's the latter.

The world may never know.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

The premise/point is: Do you see D&D playing 2nd fiddle to MMOs overall? I can remember when people were all excited about playing with their pals on the weekend with D&D. Now they seem to be excited to play an MMO on the weekend and are willing to cancel D&D sessions for raids etc... So for a person who plays both which do they prefer?

I don't know whom the first person was, but I'll own up to being the 2nd person to say it:

In the choice between D&D and MMOs? I'll take MMOs.

Does that mean I'd rather take MMOs over PnP rpgs? Not necessarily. There's a lot of different factors to take into consideration. Does that mean I'll never play D&D? Nope. In fact, I'm currently playing in a D&D game right now, along with a Star Wars d6 game, and I GM games as well. My GMing has dropped down to one-on-one games with my wife since we're getting ready for a cross-continent move, but I'm still keeping my hand in there.

[Scarik]

If someone wanted to skip a game to play an MMO they would be more than welcome to do that.

Permanently.

I may also feel the urge to punch them. :D

[Kiero]

I don't know anybody who plays MMOs; threads like this make me feel weirdly out of touch.

My sister-in-law's ex did. Sad git reduced his hours at work so he could spend more time playing WoW.

[Old Geezer]

Some people will answer one way.

Some will answer the other.

And if you went to a WoW-centric forum, I bet those ratios would change.

Me personally? If I had access to my old D&D group on a regular basis I'd drop WoW tomorrow.

[Gilbetron]

WoW was a lot of fun, and I'm hankering for a new MMO to come out that doesn't try to beat WoW. However, I'd much rather play D&D. First of all, face-to-face is just a lot more fun, technology has a ways to go to catch up to a few million years of evolution. We're wired to get a lot of feedback from being in the same room as a person. Second, there's no creativity in WoW. None. Zero. Zilch. The most fun I've ever had was when my lil hunter went running all over Azeroth collecting rare pets. Then they nerfed them :(

Third, the developers of a MMO are trying to satisfy a million+ people. Your DM is focused on just those players at the table. Fourth, a MMO world can't change, not really. It takes to much money to develop content, so everyone is forced to play the exact same stuff over and over and over. Blah. Fifth, drinking with virtual friends is no where near as fun as in real life ;)

Sixth, our imagination combined with communication skills makes for a much more interesting world. Seventh, MMOs seem to focus largely on status. I hate status, I hate f'ing asshats sitting in front of the bank on their whatever mount that took them 1000 hours to get. Eighth, MMOs require/allow a massive amount of time spent on them. Ninth, and most importantly, turns out people tend to be asshats, especially those that play MMO. With D&D I can pick and choose who I want to be there, MMO you always are forced, on some level, to deal with some schmuck that ruins all the fun.

I'm sure there's more. Now, I could eventually see MMOs evolving to the point where they have all the fun of D&D, but that's quite a bit time coming. Fortunately, I don't have to choose.

Right now, I'm just glad I'm done playing WoW (after 3.5 years of playing). It was neat, but it's too much of a time sink with almost no good returns.

[Topher]

It's a silly question, as there's no need to choose between two forms of entertainment (as a matter of fact, I enjoy dozens of forms of entertainment on a regular basis. I'm enjoying one *right now*! :eek:). When I feel like tabletop gaming, I do that. When I feel like playing WoW or CoX, I do that. When I feel like watching a movie, I do that.

In any of these cases, if I make a commitment to someone else - whether it's to go plunder the Shadow Labyrinth with my guild or run D&D for my group or watch a movie with my wife - then that's a *commitment* and I don't cancel it so I can go do something else for fun. That has nothing to do with what hobbies I like better and everything to do with not being a dick.

Topher

[Lord Mhoram]

I've never played in an MMO. But D&D plays second fiddle to Hero/Champions - our group game is Hero, but I play D&D solo with the wife.

I never plan to play an MMO, but with Cryptic coming out with Champions Online, I am sorely tempted to try one.

[rickyh]

It's a silly question, as there's no need to choose between two forms of entertainment (as a matter of fact, I enjoy dozens of forms of entertainment on a regular basis. I'm enjoying one *right now*! :eek:). When I feel like tabletop gaming, I do that. When I feel like playing WoW or CoX, I do that. When I feel like watching a movie, I do that.

In any of these cases, if I make a commitment to someone else - whether it's to go plunder the Shadow Labyrinth with my guild or run D&D for my group or watch a movie with my wife - then that's a *commitment* and I don't cancel it so I can go do something else for fun. That has nothing to do with what hobbies I like better and everything to do with not being a dick.

Topher

It's not really about a commitment or having to make a choice anything along those lines, it's about is D&D becoming people 2nd choice/backseat to MMOs?

I play EQ2 and D&D so its not about a choice, I like them both. But I like D&D better.

Which do enjoy more, D&D or MMOs? Not what would you do if you made a commitment to someone to play that or this.

[Topher]

It's not really about a commitment or having to make a choice anything along those lines

The question in the OP is: "If you HAD to choose..." Well, I don't have to choose, and I don't foresee any situation where I ever would have to, so the question is irrelevant to me.

I don't have a hierarchy of hobbies (or if I do, it changes constantly).

Topher

[RSC]

An absent player still is a problem player (the term i should have used above). If it wasn't WoW it might have been something else; symptom not root cause.
It's an addictive, obsessive hobby that's designed specifically to be addictive and obsessive. A person who might be able to drink responsibly might not be able to take heroin responsibly. Sometimes the specifics are relevant and do change the situation. I'm not saying the player is without blame, but it's not like MMOs don't have traits that make that kind of behavior more likely.

[PaladinCA]

Most of the MMO's I have played haven't held my interest for more than a few hours, perhaps a few days for some of them.

D&D, in some form or another, has managed to hold my interest for 27+ years.

It was an easy choice.

[Gene Freak]

I'm surprised no one hast stated the obvious:

When you come to an rpg forum and ask this question, the answer is going to be pretty damn heavy in favor of the rpg.

If you went to an MMO forum and asked his question, the answer would be pretty damn heavy in favor of MMOs.

I, personally, get into a serious funk after playing an MMO long enough. Spending that much time without human contact doing something that repetitive, frustrating, and rewardless is just not worth my time. My friends and I recall many, many stories about the fun we've had playing D&D and other RPGs...the only stories we have about the MMO we play (I've since quit) is the shitty things people in our linkshell used to say to each other.

Fun stories > weird internet gossip.

[Dormammu]

I'd much rather play D&D than WOW. But what I cannot do is play D&D with other players any time I want to. That, to me, is the draw of MMOs.

For players that really want to play a LOT, D&D has a hard time keeping up. Few people can play constantly after high school and college. Schedules simply do not allow for it in most cases. MMOs can be played almost any time you want.

Face to face is always better when you can get it though.

[Dormammu]

I never plan to play an MMO, but with Cryptic coming out with Champions Online, I am sorely tempted to try one.
Try a free trial of City of Heroes. Same developer and Champions Online looks to be fundamentally the same game from all previews so far.

[The Eye]

I'm surprised no one hast stated the obvious:

When you come to an rpg forum and ask this question, the answer is going to be pretty damn heavy in favor of the rpg.

If you went to an MMO forum and asked his question, the answer would be pretty damn heavy in favor of MMOs.

Old Geezer did. I didn't figure it was the end of the world if I answered the question, but I could have told you what the results would be on RPGnet...

[cloak n' dagger]

I enjoy both hobbies, but I wouldn't miss a social RPG session with friends for the MMO, my pixelated character will still be there when I get back from around the table.

[Booberry]

WoW is strictly for pussies. Heroes roll the damn dice.

[Yo! Master]

WoW is strictly for pussies. Heroes roll the damn dice.

Indeed! Heroes are those who sit around a table pretending to be elven princesses!

[Topher]

WoW is strictly for pussies. Heroes roll the damn dice.

Seriously, admins, I will *bribe* you to bring the eyeroll smiley back.

Topher

[Akodo Daimyo]

I vastly prefer D&D, or any other tabletop game, to MMOs. I really don't like computer games where my enjoyment hinges so much on people I don't know.

Now if it was D&D vs. Diablo 3...

[Yo! Master]

Now if it was D&D vs. Diablo 3...

Yeah, that's a tough one. *ponders*

[rickyh]

Thanks, I was hoping the vote would be heavily in favor of D&D. I was just bothered a bit because it seems that when an MMO situation came up in conflict with their D&D session then D&D was getting the backburner.

I know taking this poll on a MMO forum would tilt the opposite way, I just wanted to see how actual D&D players felt about it. One guy I know who use to DM a whole lot, and was really into it has let an MMO become his primary hobby so I hope that wasn't a widespread issue. I was asking out of concern for the industry as a whole. I use to go in to hobby game shops and see people playing magic, or a minis game of some sort, and now a lot of those tables are empty and people are of playing an MMO. Playing an MMO is fine, and I do play EQ 2 myself, just wouldn't wanting it taking from the D&D player base.

[The Eye]

Thanks, I was hoping the vote would be heavily in favor of D&D. I was just bothered a bit because it seems that when an MMO situation came up in conflict with their D&D session then D&D was getting the backburner.


My anecdote is this: Before D&D 4th edition came out, I played World of Warcraft avidly, probably an hour or two every day (and more on the weekends). As D&D 4th edition came out, I put WoW on the back burner (canceling my account). I have enjoyed D&D far more than I enjoyed WoW, and even now, though I am considering returning to WoW, I'm itching to play D&D more.

It irritates me when people don't make it to a game session, because I feel like everyone in the group makes a commitment, and it's borderline insulting to me for someone to say "well, I know you have put effort into the game and set aside time in your own schedule, but I'm just going to play this other thing." I'm still bothered by what the woman did in my above story, and probably always will be. It was rude and disappointing.

That said, if someone wants to do something else, talk to them and let them know it's ok. But also let them know that there may not be a spot for them at the D&D game; it's not fair to everyone else to wait, put things off, make a mess of the story, and otherwise reduce their fun because a single person doesn't want to make a choice.

In fairness, I'd say the same thing if I had a Raid group on WoW and we all set aside our Saturday evening to play together. One person deciding they have something else they want to do ("Eh... I think I don't want to raid tonight") screws things up for everyone.

[simontmn]

As a GM I'd certainly feel insulted by any player who told me they'd rather be playing a computer game than playing my D&D game. As a parting insult from someone quitting my game I'd understand it - "You suck so bad I'd rather be playing WoW". From someone who apparently enjoyed my game and was planning to be back playing next time? Very strange.

[CaffeineBoy]

WoW is my Methadone. If I can't get some D&D, and I *really* need a hit, I'll play some WoW. I'd much rather be social.

[Citizen Arcane]

I voted for the MMO.

That being said, if the question was if you had to choose between "Face to face roleplaying and MMOs..." I would have voted the other way.

The reason being that RPGs are my main hobby. I love them, and play roughly two nights a week. I also play WoW, but if I had to choose between the two, RPGS would win, hands down, no contest.

But to choose between D&D and MMOs? Meh. I get pretty much most of what I like out of D&D from WoW. Hack and slash dungeon crawling with lots of phat lootz? I'll take WoW. Player driven face to face roleplaying? I'll take something like Spirit of the Century or even Mutants & Masterminds over D&D any day.

And, yeah I'm one of those people who will be taking some vacation time to play in the new WoW expansion. I've got more than four weeks of vacation time and if I don't use it, I'll start losing it. On top of that, I am saving money to buy property (as soon as the market bottoms out) so a nice little stay-cation in Northrend fits the bill nicely!

<feel free to insert eye-roll smilies in your responses...>

[The Venomous Pao]

I don't know anybody who plays MMOs; threads like this make me feel weirdly out of touch.

My first thought is to say that threads like this make me feel old. I've never touched an MMO and have no intentions to. It's mostly that whole "It's not something I'm interested in personally" thing, but there's also some fear of ruining my life by becoming an addict, too :)

Honestly, MMOs just don't sing to me. They seem like something that "kids these days" are into. But then I look around at some of the other old farts I've been known to game with and see that they're all geeked out over this stuff and then I wonder how I wound up so very much less geeky than they are :)

You can also put me in the "RPGs aren't exactly my primary hobby" bin, too. You folks go spend the night leveling up your night troll. I'll be playing guitar or watching movies or playing board games or something. But if you're up for sitting around a table and rolling some funny dice, I can probably find the time to join you.

[Chocobo]

I would never skip a D&D session to play WoW. That's just ridiculous. WoW will still be there tomorrow and will be exactly the same (well not tomorrow from today of course - everything changes tomorrow with WOTLK - but tomorrow from tomorrow will be the same as tomorrow... yeah) . The D&D session you skip will never happen again, it was a unique experience.

On the other hand if I had to choose one to give up that's a dificult choice. I like D&D more but really I don't play it very much at all. Once every other week, and then a few sessions are missed for various reasons so really maybe 1 every 3 weeks. WoW on the other hand, I can play whenever I feel like it, which comes out to 2 or 3 times a week. That's a big difference there.

I didn't answer the poll.

[mhacdebhandia]

If I had to choose between playing World of Warcraft exclusively, or playing Dungeons & Dragons exclusively, I would probably choose WoW, purely and simply because it's much more accessible. Since the people I play with are either out of university and in the workforce (like me) or working on their postgraduate degrees (like I plan to in the near future), it's fairly difficult to reliably schedule a face-to-face game of D&D.

Conversely, it's much easier to just hop on WoW and play solo, or in a group with whoever happens to be online at the time - the guild I'm in is small, but nearly everyone in it is a real-life friend of mine; several of them are the people with whom I currently play tabletop roleplaying games (D&D and GURPS).

That said, obviously I don't have to choose between WoW and D&D, and the fact that D&D is much harder to organise means that it actually gets priority over WoW. The fact that I can log on to WoW any time means that when D&D is being scheduled, I say "I can log on to WoW any time!" and make time to play D&D.

Now, I don't raid much, and won't be raiding that much even when Wrath of the Lich King comes out - I find the 25-player raids in The Burning Crusade quite boring, and I've had my fill of the 10-player Karazhan and Zul'Aman raids. This means that WoW is much less of a commitment for me - I don't have to keep Thursday nights free for raiding instead of GURPS, and likewise the times I have been raiding (Sunday afternoons) are times I wouldn't want to or be able to schedule tabletop gaming anyway.

To speak to the broader question of the thread, though, I wouldn't call either World of Warcraft (or computer games in general) or Dungeons & Dragons (or roleplaying games in general) my primary hobby. That's not because there's another hobby which I consider primary - it's just that what I want most to do changes from time to time. Sometimes I burn out on D&D and would much rather play Vampire: The Requiem or WoW; sometimes I burn out on WoW, unsubscribe, and play D&D or Team Fortress 2. Sometimes I get way more enthusiastic about something else entirely, spending all my free time reading or listening to a new band I've discovered or watching a TV show on DVD. WoW and D&D don't compete for my primary affections because nothing holds my primary affections.

[Comdessert]

Alright last week I was told by a player they couldn't make the next session because "Wrath of the Lich King" comes out. Today a player in my lunch work group asked if it'd be cool for him to miss because he didn't get to play WoW last night and wants to make it up today to reach level 70 before Lich King comes out...

Is D&D anyone's primary hobby over MMOs anymore?

Hey rickyh,

Me personally, yes, D&D is a primary hobby. I don't play MMOs because I find a tabletop game more immersive, with a greater amount of freedom of action. I don't know any gamers who would choose MMOs over a tabletop game.

I wonder if, in some cases, there is some sort of explanation. Maybe the current D&D campaign isn't exciting or enjoyable enough, or perhaps there is some personal conflict between players and this is a good "excuse" to not play with them? Have you tried talking to them about it and seeing if something is going on?

- CD

[Mengtzu]

WoW, no competition.

As many have noted in this thread, in practice you usually don't have to choose between them, but if it came down to it...

(I could go on at length about how the unique and special properties of tabletop, while valuable, don't outweigh the fun of raiding for me, but I think we've been over that a few times in this forum)

[Neil Phillips]

I think I'd be offended if someone skipped out on a session I was running to play WoW. (That goes the same for any entertainment that is not face to face human interaction. You can do that any time).

I don't play MMO's, I think possibly I don't "get" them, but possibly it's because I lived with a seriously bad WoW addict (Forget him losing his social life and dropping out of uni, it affected his eating, he looked more like a heroin addict during the worst period), and I'm scared that would happen to me.

[Old Geezer]

WoW, no competition.

As many have noted in this thread, in practice you usually don't have to choose between them, but if it came down to it...

(I could go on at length about how the unique and special properties of tabletop, while valuable, don't outweigh the fun of raiding for me, but I think we've been over that a few times in this forum)

Mileage, vary, yours.

If I want to play a battle, I can get together with friends and do a miniatures game of anything from cavemen to spaceships, and I know enough people that I don't have to own any minis myself.

Of course I'll be the first to admit that all I've ever done on WoW is arse around and look at the scenery. Almost a year and a half of playing and my highest level character is only level 45.

[PlatinumWarlock]

I have never, and will probably never, play a MMO for more than 15 minutes. I spent that long tinkering on WoW with a friend's account, and was utterly disinterested.

Nothing beats tabletop for me--regardless of system.

[Gilbetron]

the fun of raiding for me

*shudder* At this point, 3 years of raiding has made it so that rubbing glass shards in my eyes sounds more fun. Even hearing "DKP" makes me want to punch babies. Granted, it was kinda fun for a while in those 3 years, and maybe again some day. Right now, I'd rather run a crappy dungeon crawl than stick me with 24 or 39 or even 9 other people waiting for them to learn their jobs. And don't get me started on the loot ladder!

MMOs could be so cool, sadly WoW is going away from what I'd like to see. But, I'll come back in a few months and see how Wrath is.

[Gilbetron]

Of course I'll be the first to admit that all I've ever done on WoW is arse around and look at the scenery. Almost a year and a half of playing and my highest level character is only level 45.
If I play Wrath, it'll be to do precisely that kind of arseing around - it was my favorite part, I guess I'm an explorer at heart :)

[The Eye]

If I want to play a battle, I can get together with friends and do a miniatures game of anything from cavemen to spaceships, and I know enough people that I don't have to own any minis myself.

Of course I'll be the first to admit that all I've ever done on WoW is arse around and look at the scenery. Almost a year and a half of playing and my highest level character is only level 45.

IIRC, Kasumi is one of those people who gets into the mathematics behind the game. There are people who make charts and graphs, analyze the exact statistics behind powers and gear, and generally make a hobby out of taking things far beyond the level that most players do.

I can see that kind of person being willing to drop D&D for WoW; there isn't nearly the level of mechanical complexity behind the workings of D&D. And all that complexity, the intricate workings... that's what those folks are looking for.

[Old Geezer]

IIRC, Kasumi is one of those people who gets into the mathematics behind the game. There are people who make charts and graphs, analyze the exact statistics behind powers and gear, and generally make a hobby out of taking things far beyond the level that most players do.

I can see that kind of person being willing to drop D&D for WoW; there isn't nearly the level of mechanical complexity behind the workings of D&D. And all that complexity, the intricate workings... that's what those folks are looking for.

For that kind of person, yeah, D&D isn't the game. Especially Brown-Box the way I run it, where the default rule is "roll 2d6 or d20 and make up some shit you think will be fun".

[The Eye]

For that kind of person, yeah, D&D isn't the game. Especially Brown-Box the way I run it, where the default rule is "roll 2d6 or d20 and make up some shit you think will be fun".

Even more complex D&Ds, like 3rd and 4th edition, aren't the level of complexity of high-level/end-game WoW. I remember one description of how to best utilize a class that involved multiple three-dimensional charts...

[Booberry]

Indeed! Heroes are those who sit around a table pretending to be elven princesses!

Seriously, admins, I will *bribe* you to bring the eyeroll smiley back.

Topher

I figured my original statement was ridiculous enough to get away without using a smiley.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

When you come to an rpg forum and ask this question, the answer is going to be pretty damn heavy in favor of the rpg.

If you went to an MMO forum and asked his question, the answer would be pretty damn heavy in favor of MMOs.

It seems obvious to me that this is a no brainer. On the other hand...

Thanks, I was hoping the vote would be heavily in favor of D&D.

Dude, seriously... you post in the d20 sub-forum, and you thought it _wouldn't_ be horribly biased in favor of D&D?

I'm surprised that there were 7 of us (at the time I'm typing this) that actually were willing to admit that if we _had_ to choose between the two, that we'd take an MMO.

Although it looks like only Kasumi and I were willing to actually have our names associated with such heresy. Maybe I missed someone in there...

I'll also note in passing that I said "MMO". I realize everyone assumes that means "World of Warcraft" especially since that's what the OP is bitching about, but the poll and I was responding to was "MMO".

I'll show myself out of the thread though, as there doesn't seem to actually be any point except for folks to bash on MMOs/World of Warcraft. Have fun.

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

Something that does bear pointing out in the situation in the OP is that the two people excusing themselves from the session aren't just doing so to go grind cloth or some such, but for the largest event in WoW in two years, and quite likely the largest video game launch to date.

[Bradford C. Walker]

While I do have a Star Wars game going on now, which I run, and however much I wish it were otherwise the fact is that WOW has become my primary gaming outlet.

[Yo! Master]

I figured my original statement was ridiculous enough to get away without using a smiley.

As i've heard much worse comparisons for MMORGs in contrasting them to tabletop games, no.

[Crimson Reaver]

I gave MMOs a fair crack I reckon, I tried Guild Wars, WoW, RF Online and so on but for me the best thing about a 3rd Person Computer RPG is the storyline and the gameplay. I'd rather play KotoR or Mass Effect any day because they have a well scripted and engaging story with a definite goal (ie finishing the game and saving the day) and the combat tends to be more varied and challenging.

I found when playing the various MMOs that the gameplay devolved into grinding my way through legions of nearly identical critters of various levels and the quests tended to be "Kill 10 Wibbleyblobs". Don't get me wrong, I love levelling characters up and getting the sense of accomplishment from doing so, but after grinding through 18 levels of RF online after 3 months or so (yes, I suck, sue me :D) I didn't feel the need to play it any more.

I find that MMOs do what they do very well but what they do isn't what I want. I can't ask my PC if it would let me try this cool idea not governed by the rules as they stand, nor can I really try and get it to interact with me in a realistic and believable way. I'm a ref of a Live Action Mage the Ascension game and having people turn up in costumes and putting on daft accents and running around having a blast is so much more satisfying.

I've always tended to get my computer gaming kicks from playing excellent single player RPGs (can't wait to get Fable 2 for Christmas) and my roleplaying from D&D along with all the other games I play. I've never had anyone bail on me to go play an MMO but I have seen a lot less of some friends due to their WoW habit, and it does annoy me to that extent. I've always tended to play computer games on a whim (normally when my Guitar Hero urge kicks in) and I find it hard to relate to people who schedule a computer game in advance in this respect.

I think it's also because I love buying, reading and digesting books. I have loads of RPGs and other fantasy/sci-fi books and I love absorbing new ideas and generally learning new things and riffing off them to come up with crazy plots for RPGs I'll probably never get to run. Guild Wars especially was insanely pretty but there wasn't much that was new or innovative to make me think "bet I could run a campaign with this idea".

I'm in an odd position, I used to really hate MMOs because people I know obsessed about them and spent ages playing something I'd tried and really didn't grok. I did feel a sense of exclusion because I didn't feel like buying into things like WoW to the same extent as other people. What I realised later was that MMOs have actually made it easier to be a geek and relate to other people, as WoW casts the net wider than D&D has done for some time. It also means that most of the people I know who play MMOs are keen to try gaming that's not simple hack and slash when they do come to the tabletop, which is ace because I love trying new things. It also means I can spend some evenings catching up on things I've missed because I know my gaming revolves more around quality than quantity, which wasn't the case pre-WoW.

I have no hat of WoW (and other MMOs) but to get me to play it as opposed to D&D you'd have to prise my PHB from my cold dead fingers :D

[rickyh]

I'll show myself out of the thread though, as there doesn't seem to actually be any point except for folks to bash on MMOs/World of Warcraft. Have fun.


Well the intent of the thread is to see if actual D&D players still enjoyed D&D more than MMOs and/or are the D&D players who DO like it alot starting to let it intrude on their D&D time. As I said in a couple examples above certain people use to be avid, avid, D&D players and now are enjoying MMOs over it.

I must admit, I'm actually surprise that people who like D&D enough to actually register on a forum and discuss it still picked the MMO over it. So if people who actually care enough about it to register and talk regularly on a forum allow an MMO to be their choice over tabletop RPGs, imagine the common player. I have to say I'm really surprised that a moderator of a mostly tabletop forum likes MMOs over D&D though. Nothing wrong with that mind you, just surprised a bit I guess. I wonder if you asked on any of the sites dedicated to MMOs/WoW if one of their mods enjoy D&D more than WoW.

I just hope the industry makes it okay with the economy the way it is and players beginning to lay down their phbs in preference their mouse.

I guess after A.) A player told me he couldn't make a session because of wrath because it'll be the first weekend of Wrath. B.) A separate person said "I didn't get to play WoW last night and I wanna hit 70 before it comes out, do you mid if we don't play today? and C.) Some players talk about MMOs with an ecstatic enthusiasm on breaks while playing D&D and don't actually talk about the story, combats, events going on... it just kinda bothered me some because ABC above span over a couple of different groups. So I didn't mean to bash, or get bashing started.

To take the thread in a different direction do you think the industry is strong?

[Topher]

I figured my original statement was ridiculous enough to get away without using a smiley.

This is RPGnet. I have not yet come across a statement so ridiculous that someone here wouldn't be willing to make it or defend it in complete seriousness.

Topher

[Old Geezer]

While I do have a Star Wars game going on now, which I run, and however much I wish it were otherwise the fact is that WOW has become my primary gaming outlet.

Well, same here, but that's not the actual question. But if She Who Must Be Obeyed hadn't signed up for an account too, I would have quit WoW a year ago.

[Crimson Reaver]

Well, same here, but that's not the actual question. But if She Who Must Be Obeyed hadn't signed up for an account too, I would have quit WoW a year ago.

I'm pretty lucky in that respect, my better half likes sewing, so she's never tried to get me to take it up and she's never shown the slightest inclination to play any other computer game save Singstar and Settlers II :D

I've managed to get her to paint some Space Marines though, so I'm ahead at the moment ;)

[Gilbetron]

Well, same here, but that's not the actual question. But if She Who Must Be Obeyed hadn't signed up for an account too, I would have quit WoW a year ago.

Heh, mine is now She Who Must Be Obeyed Especially Now That She Is Carrying A Baby, but she quit WoW a while back and hasn't gotten back into it. Which is good, because she's actually more intense about games than I am, and so we were playing *tons* of WoW.

[RSC]

I would never skip a D&D session to play WoW. That's just ridiculous. WoW will still be there tomorrow and will be exactly the same (well not tomorrow from today of course - everything changes tomorrow with WOTLK - but tomorrow from tomorrow will be the same as tomorrow... yeah) . The D&D session you skip will never happen again, it was a unique experience.
That hasn't been my experience with how I have seen MMOs played. What I've seen plenty of is "if I'm not there for this raid, I don't get flagged so I can go to the plains. That's what the guild is going to be doing for the next 6 months, so if I skip today, I might as well quit the guild I've been playing in for 2 years and delete the character."

I've seen guilds that called themselves "casual" have minimum hours/week requirements for membership.

So, while playing a MMO is about as repetitive as watching a clock face, it's often not a choice between play to day or play tomorrow, but instead play today or play not at all.

[Old Geezer]

That hasn't been my experience with how I have seen MMOs played. What I've seen plenty of is "if I'm not there for this raid, I don't get flagged so I can go to the plains. That's what the guild is going to be doing for the next 6 months, so if I skip today, I might as well quit the guild I've been playing in for 2 years and delete the character."

I've seen guilds that called themselves "casual" have minimum hours/week requirements for membership.


:eek:

Wow. And She Who Must Be Obeyed thought my Paladin's guild was wack for requiring half an hour of guard duty at Stormwind Cathedral per week.

But we are very, very casual players, as I've hinted at. WoW is what I do instead of turn on the TV, and if it ever becomes more effort than watching TV, I'm gone.

Strangely, or perhaps not, the guilds we join keep dying. Frequently from Teh Drama.

[Crimson Reaver]

:eek:

Wow. And She Who Must Be Obeyed thought my Paladin's guild was wack for requiring half an hour of guard duty at Stormwind Cathedral per week.

But we are very, very casual players, as I've hinted at. WoW is what I do instead of turn on the TV, and if it ever becomes more effort than watching TV, I'm gone.

Strangely, or perhaps not, the guilds we join keep dying. Frequently from Teh Drama.

Oh yes. I suffered from Teh Drama when I was a staff member at a PbP site before WoW came along and I left in the end because of a healthy dollop of Teh Drama.

So, the Guild and community side of things hasn't really interested me, basically because I see any enterprise like that as being either so monolithic I'd be swamped or a prime candidate for me to invest lots of time in and then get stiffed due to Teh Drama.

Sigh :(

[Chocobo]

That hasn't been my experience with how I have seen MMOs played. What I've seen plenty of is "if I'm not there for this raid, I don't get flagged so I can go to the plains. That's what the guild is going to be doing for the next 6 months, so if I skip today, I might as well quit the guild I've been playing in for 2 years and delete the character."

I've seen guilds that called themselves "casual" have minimum hours/week requirements for membership.

So, while playing a MMO is about as repetitive as watching a clock face, it's often not a choice between play to day or play tomorrow, but instead play today or play not at all.

I'm not a high end raider in WoW, but I was a high end raider in EQ for years in the top guild on my server. We didn't do a flagging raid just once. It was more like "for the next 2 weeks we're going to be concentrating on getting this flag". And I can't see how the raiding environment in WoW would make that stricter since:
A. You have a much lower limit on the number of players who can be in any single raid. So by necessity you must do many raids to get the whole guild flagged.
B. You don't have to wait X days for respawns.

I raided almost every night, but I could take any given day off and yeah maybe I'd miss the first win against some boss but it would happen again.

Not to mention, the OP wasn't about a raid anyway. These people are skipping the D&D game to level grind. So I think I'll stick with my statement of ridiculous.

[mhacdebhandia]

That hasn't been my experience with how I have seen MMOs played. What I've seen plenty of is "if I'm not there for this raid, I don't get flagged so I can go to the plains. That's what the guild is going to be doing for the next 6 months, so if I skip today, I might as well quit the guild I've been playing in for 2 years and delete the character."
Well, not all MMOs work that way - World of Warcraft had quest chains to get keys for certain dungeons, or required you to earn reputation with a faction to buy the key for heroic mode on certain dungeons, but a) the quests and the reputation "grind" weren't really that hard, and b) the restrictions were eventually relaxed as the game progressed past the point where it was worth putting speedbumps in front of these things.

Not all guilds in MMOs choose to operate that way either. Even forgetting the fact that my guild is pretty small and includes only people known to each other in real life (even if not all of us are known to everyone else), I know that the larger guild with which members of our guild have gone on larger raids have a very relaxed approach. They organised weekly raids, different dungeons on different nights of the week, but if you didn't feel like going they'd be happy to pick up some extra players to take your place - it's why they started raiding with us.

It's really the same as tabletop gaming - the fun you get out of it depends a great deal on the people with whom you play. Play with dicks, get dicked around. Play with good people, have a good time.

[Bradford C. Walker]

It comes down to a combination of ubiquitous availability, widespread exposure, system mastery and a metagame that rewards those that can put in time as well as follow orders; the players that can reliably show up, gear right (including enchants and consumables), spec right, know their class and spec, follow the kill order and not stand in the fire are the ones that get to see the most content in the game and receive the most acclaim from others. All of these are elements that, for good or ill, are long associated with D&D and its derivatives; the roleplaying gets downplayed, often because you are playing in real time and thus have no time to speak or act in character (and, as a result, there is a significant anti-RP element that is dispropotionately noisy).

I find this to be acceptable. It allows me to make far better use of the strengths of tabletop RPGs as a medium, ignore the weaknesses vs. MMOs, and thus enjoy a different experience than what I get from MMOs. About the only thing that I wish I would get more from tabletop play is the habit of timeliness and expectation of competence that MMOs often foster, along with greater (i.e. weekly) frequency.

[Old Geezer]

Problems with timeliness, player competence, and frequency are people problems, not game system problems. They are solved in TTRPGs the same way they are solved in MMOs and everything else... by ridding yourself of Geek Social Fallacy One and Five.

Also sprach Geezerthustra. (horn fanfare w/drums)

[JDCorley]

Asking this on a busy D&D message board seems sort of pointless.

[rickyh]

Asking this on a busy D&D message board seems sort of pointless.


See post #7, #39, #63

[rickyh]

Hey rickyh,


I wonder if, in some cases, there is some sort of explanation. Maybe the current D&D campaign isn't exciting or enjoyable enough, or perhaps there is some personal conflict between players and this is a good "excuse" to not play with them? Have you tried talking to them about it and seeing if something is going on?

- CD

Hi, Comdessert.

I do ask for feedback after the game on things such as the session, likes/dislikes, what they want to see, how they think the story is... I usually get fairly honest responses back. I think alot of it may have to do with the new expansion coming out and everyone being excited about it. But as we are about to hit Paragon. I've pledged to try to make a more cohesive story and work with them on certain things.

[Gilbetron]

Asking this on a busy D&D message board seems sort of pointless.
I frequent several WoW boards and if this was asked on one of them, my answer would be the same. In spite of some whining by WoWers that they are getting picked on, the discussion has been fairly interesting. I was actually surprised to find some people on this board *would* rather play WoW over D&D.

That said, with Wrath out, I find myself scratching my needle tracks ;)

[tenebrae]

I'd drop D&D. In fact, I already have.

WoW lets me play anytime I want. It lets me not play anytime I don't want. It lets me keep playing with friends that have become dispersed, that all have young children (as I do) and work schedules that make meeting face to face a difficult proposition on a regular weekly/bi-weekly basis. (Any more than every other week and an rpg seems to unravel.)

With WoW I don't have the game halt for a rules lawyer and the GM to get into an argument over a rule. I don't have to wait 30 minutes for all the other players to decide what they're going to do in their combat round.

I can hook up with my peeps and hit the big dungeons, or I can solo whatever I've got going on at the time.

I don't have to worry about the campaign going from 3.0 to 3.5 to 4.0, whether or not this month's book of X is in or out.

I still meet my friends in person, but when we do we prefer to get out of the house and do something. I've reached a point in life where RPGs are more trouble than they're worth.

[rickyh]

I'd drop D&D. In fact, I already have.

WoW lets me play anytime I want. It lets me not play anytime I don't want. It lets me keep playing with friends that have become dispersed, that all as have yound children (as I do) and work schedules that make meeting face to face a difficult proposition on a regular weekly/bi-weekly basis. (Any more than every other week and an rpg seems to unravel.)

With WoW I don't have the game halt for a rules lawyer and the GM to get into an argument over a rule. I don't have to wait 30 minutes for all the other players to decide what they're going to do in their combat round.

I can hook up with my peeps and hit the big dungeons, or I can solo whatever I've got going on at the time.

I don't have to worry about the campaign going from 3.0 to 3.5 to 4.0, whether or not this month's book of X is in or out.

I still meet my friends in person, but when we do we prefer to get out of the house and do something. I've reached a point in life where RPGs are more trouble than they're worth.

Out of curiosity and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, because I know it can be hard for tone inflection to translate. If you have dropped D&D and it sounds like tabletop gaming in general, why are you here contributing to the d20 forum? Just out of curiosity what keeps you coming back to the D&D forum?

[Ineti]

I've yet to find an MMO that gives me as entertaining a game experience as D&D, so no, D&D does not play second fiddle to MMOs. Three of the five players in my group happen to work for a MMO company, and all three of them prefer our D&D sessions to playing MMOs. Maybe cause they get paid to play MMOs, I dunno. ;)

[Novatian]

My gaming group is very small, and all friends. None of us play MMOs, and any video games we play are console games (we did go through a little phase where we enjoyed playing D&D Heroes, because we could all play it at the same time together). But I'd just miss the face to face contact if we tried WoW instead.

[Shawn]

Man, if I had to choose between D&D or WoW it wouldn't even be close, WoW in a heartbeat. If I had to choose between RPGs in general or WoW, it would be a lot tougher. RPGs would probably win out.

Oddly, I've found a lot of RPG settings that I don't particularly want to run or play tabletop games in, would make for awesome video games, MMO or otherwise. I'd love to see an Iron Kingdoms computer game, or a good Eberron game, and I'm definitely looking forward to a good 4e video game.

[Sangrolu]

MMOs and CRPGS are what I do when there is no real roleplaying to be had.

[RSC]

I'm not a high end raider in WoW, but I was a high end raider in EQ for years in the top guild on my server. We didn't do a flagging raid just once. It was more like "for the next 2 weeks we're going to be concentrating on getting this flag". And I can't see how the raiding environment in WoW would make that stricter since:
A. You have a much lower limit on the number of players who can be in any single raid. So by necessity you must do many raids to get the whole guild flagged.
B. You don't have to wait X days for respawns.
Well, I'm speaking mostly from EQ as well, and what I saw were guilds strictly limited in size by the max raid size - 70-whatever. And the whole "I've got to be level whatever before the expansion comes out" thing I saw replayed again and again on the progression servers, where you absolutely needed to be certain levels when new content was unlocked to keep up.

I distinctly remember having an extended discussion with a friend when he had to explain to me how they would only be doing the flagging once - I've gotten a call from a friend stuck in traffic to have me log on for him so he wouldn't miss the raids. From my experience, the hardcore guilders all shared their login password (with all the security risk that entails) just in case something happened and they couldn't log in when needed.

[The_Harlequin]

Tabletop RPing is second only to lovemaking, let alone mmsomethingorother...

[Bradford C. Walker]

Problems with timeliness, player competence, and frequency are people problems, not game system problems. They are solved in TTRPGs the same way they are solved in MMOs and everything else... by ridding yourself of Geek Social Fallacy One and Five.

Also sprach Geezerthustra. (horn fanfare w/drums)

This is not about social fallacies. This is about the changes in social availability that go with life after university. People get married. People spawn children. People get caught up in their careers. These three combined suck away a lot of time outside of the job, as there are often de facto demands placed upon one's time that must be fulfilled (parent-teacher meetings, business conferences, date nights w/ spouse, emergencies of various types and degrees, ritual visits to extended blood relations, etc.) and of what time remains there are often competing interests that jostle with tabletop gaming. You've been there; you know first-hand of what I speak.

There are other parts that go beyond this, but that's something I am keeping for a post on my weblog.

[Comdessert]

I do ask for feedback after the game on things such as the session, likes/dislikes, what they want to see, how they think the story is... I usually get fairly honest responses back. I think alot of it may have to do with the new expansion coming out and everyone being excited about it. But as we are about to hit Paragon. I've pledged to try to make a more cohesive story and work with them on certain things.

Hey rickyh,

Ah, sounds like you run a great game :) Best of luck dealing with this issue.

- CD

[Gilbetron]

This is not about social fallacies. This is about the changes in social availability that go with life after university. People get married. People spawn children. People get caught up in their careers. These three combined suck away a lot of time outside of the job, as there are often de facto demands placed upon one's time that must be fulfilled (parent-teacher meetings, business conferences, date nights w/ spouse, emergencies of various types and degrees, ritual visits to extended blood relations, etc.) and of what time remains there are often competing interests that jostle with tabletop gaming. You've been there; you know first-hand of what I speak.
The fallacy here is that MMOs somehow don't run into the same problem. Except for very casual stuff, MMOs run into the same situation. I have heard of very few marriages ruined by D&D directly, not true of MMOs. Raiding of any significance dominates a person's life.

[Old Geezer]

The fallacy here is that MMOs somehow don't run into the same problem. Except for very casual stuff, MMOs run into the same situation. I have heard of very few marriages ruined by D&D directly, not true of MMOs. Raiding of any significance dominates a person's life.

Precisely. If you are meeting at X time to do Y thing, then you are meeting at X time to do Y thing, whether it's play WoW, play D&D, play cards, have a farting contest, shag each others' wives, or whatever.

I also do model railroading. I know a large number of model railroaders who faithfully get together on monthly or even weekly basis. They attend because they choose to spend the time.

I hear a lot of "I can't find players to commit regularly to RPGs", yet every Wednesday for over 25 years 10 people gather at the Cumberland Northern railroad. Every first Friday of the month, 15 people gather at the Arcwood and Rice Creek, and it's a different group.

My point (which is getting lost) is that lots of people manage to make regular time commitments.

People with real jobs and real spouses and real children etc etc etc...

[tenebrae]

Out of curiosity and I don't mean this in a bad way at all, because I know it can be hard for tone inflection to translate. If you have dropped D&D and it sounds like tabletop gaming in general, why are you here contributing to the d20 forum? Just out of curiosity what keeps you coming back to the D&D forum?

Reasonable question.

I check out many of the forums here out of interest. Even though I don't get to play minis games or rpgs anymore, I like to dip into the forums and see what's going on in the hobby. I started with D&D in 1977 and am curious where it is going. I also keep tabs in places like Warseer even though GW's price hikes and rules revisions have driven me to abandon their games too.

The fact that I don't get to play as I used to doesn't mean I don't want to.

[Bradford C. Walker]

The fallacy here is that MMOs somehow don't run into the same problem. Except for very casual stuff, MMOs run into the same situation. I have heard of very few marriages ruined by D&D directly, not true of MMOs. Raiding of any significance dominates a person's life.

And yet there is a far greater availability of raiders than tabletop players, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you have to pay to play an MMO and as a direct result there is a greater value placed on MMO time over tabletop time by the common gamer.

[rickyh]

And yet there is a far greater availability of raiders than tabletop players, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you have to pay to play an MMO and as a direct result there is a greater value placed on MMO time over tabletop time by the common gamer.

Actually I hadn't thought of it that way, but that makes very good sense.

[Lord Apathy]

The question in the OP is: "If you HAD to choose..." Well, I don't have to choose, and I don't foresee any situation where I ever would have to, so the question is irrelevant to me.

I don't have a hierarchy of hobbies (or if I do, it changes constantly).

Topher


Well, the question wasn't "If Topher HAD to choose...", so why did you bother answering? More important than the question being irrelevant to you is that your response was irrelevant to this thread.

As for me, I play both and D&D wins every time.

[Gilbetron]

And yet there is a far greater availability of raiders than tabletop players, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you have to pay to play an MMO and as a direct result there is a greater value placed on MMO time over tabletop time by the common gamer.

I agree with both statements, but that availability is offset by the more intense requirements of raiding, especially 25 man stuff. Your D&D friend doesn't need to be "good", just someone you enjoy to hang out with. In raiding, you can't just replace the main tank with some random person - especially BC+ you need people that know the fight, and know how your guild does that fight. Plus, you can start up a D&D game without everyone there, or keep going if someone needs to answer a call - raiding that most often puts things on hold. Raiding is far less intolerant of real life. Plus getting 25 people to focus 4 times a week is far more difficult than getting a handful of people to hang out once a week.

The big difference is that WoW is easier to have shallow fun, whereas RPGs are more difficult but have deeper fun.

[Old Geezer]

And yet there is a far greater availability of raiders than tabletop players, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you have to pay to play an MMO and as a direct result there is a greater value placed on MMO time over tabletop time by the common gamer.

Okay, there might be something... no, wait, I don't think so.

It's fifteen bucks per month. If you do TTRPG once per week and chip in for pizza you're spending more.

I think there are more raiders because you don't have to live within convenient driving distance of fellow raiders.

If there were a TRULY EFFECTIVE way to TTRPG over the web (like the guys in Full Frontal Nerdity) I wonder how things would shake out.

[durecellrabbit]

The people I play D&D with as the same people I'll be in a guild with in a MMO so we can easily schedule the two. If we had to pick we'd probably go for the MMO because it's a lot easier for us to meet online than at someones house.

[Old Geezer]

The people I play D&D with as the same people I'll be in a guild with in a MMO so we can easily schedule the two. If we had to pick we'd probably go for the MMO because it's a lot easier for us to meet online than at someones house.

Right.

I think a better question may be,

"If you could play D&D or an MMO with identical ease of access, which would you do?"

If I could scare together my new D&D group as easily as I log onto WoW, I'd never touch WoW again.

[Random Code]

This question (well, from an RPGing point of view not just D&D) was very relevant to me some time ago and still makes a return call every now and then...

I have work colleagues/friends that are all into WoW and gaming with them when playing it was great. I real hoot. There were literally times at my keyboard that I was crying with laughter at the antics of me and the group. Comedy gold was buried in that game.

But...

There came a time when I just couldn't keep up with them due to my RPGing commitments. One or the other had to go; not because anyone was forcing me to choose, but simply because my spare time is very finite and to commit properly to something I could only pick one.

RPGing won. No contest. I don't have as many laughs with it as I do with the guys and WoW, but I enjoy it more and the human contact makes it for me.

There are times when my workmates enthuse about the latest patch or instance or whatever and I almost get sucked back in, but I know I can't put in the time that WoW 'demands' from you. And I know I'd rather spend my spare time involved in more interactive pursuits.

I know I’ll be a tabletop RPGer until the day I die if it’s humanly possible for me to do so. And you know what? That makes me really happy. It’s the best hobby I’ve ever had.