Dungeon Delve: Arrives Tonight!

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

My copy of Dungeon Delve will be delivered tonight. I think I am getting it on the old release date, but considering that the official release date was changed to March 3rd, I am one happy delver!

Any warm-up questions?

[Random Code]

I hatez you!

Well, not really... :D

A nice summary of the spread of adventure sites (eg, level spread) and their flavour (eg, crypt, castle, etc) would be a cool starter. Also, you picking one favourite out of each tier of play and teasing us with a little description of them would be even cooler! :)

[Dormammu]

I'd like to know if there are any new monsters. I don't mean like a new kind of Goblin, but maybe some monster we haven't seen in 4E yet.

[Inyssius]

I'd like to know about any encounters that take place on the Astral Sea.

[Beri]

My copy of Dungeon Delve will be delivered tonight. I think I am getting it on the old release date, but considering that the official release date was changed to March 3rd, I am one happy delver!

Any warm-up questions?

When you get the book, slap it down, read the introduction, then flip to a random page. Can you start running a session of D&D right now?

[Dave Turner]

When you get the book, slap it down, read the introduction, then flip to a random page. Can you start running a session of D&D right now?

A good question, seconded.

[Jim DelRosso]

Which Dungeon Tiles sets get used in the delves?

[Yo! Master]

When you get the book, slap it down, read the introduction, then flip to a random page. Can you start running a session of D&D right now?

I have MapTools & Skype ready. When do we play? :D

[hong]

Dibs on the rogue.

[Bob the happy zombie]

I'm not sure he'd like that.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

I'm not sure he'd like that.

hehehehe!

And it begins...

Here are all the new monsters...

kolbold cleaver 2 minion

big grigbad 3 elite solider (leader)

decaying skeleton 5 minion

tal lorvas 6 elite controller

frosthound 7 solider

tiefling deceiver 8 artillery

cambion stalwart 8 elite brute (leader)

MASSIVE gelatinous cube 8 elite brute

koptila 8 solo controller

human blood cultist 10 minion

cobalt serpent 10 skirmisher

flameborn zombie 10 soldier

borrit crowfinger 11 solo controller

githyanki corsair 12 skirmisher

abyssal spitter 14 solo brute

windrage harpy 15 artillery

inferno bat 15 skirmisher

dragonborn hunter 17 elite skirmisher

minotaur mauler 18 brute

cyclops reaver 18 solider

cyclops earthquake shaman 19 elite artillery

jelendra, tulani of summer 20 skirmisher

wild hunt acolyte 21 elite skirmisher (leader)

rakshasa destroyer 21 solider

rot hurler 22 elite artillery

putrid rot harbinger 22 solider

cambion soul conflagrant 23 artillery

hezrou mangler 24 brute

bluespawn defender 25 elite solider

fire archon blazesword 25 elite solider

great conflagration 26 elite artillery

molten firestorm 26 elite brute

flameskull lord 26 controller

marut champion 26 elite controller (leader)

angel of valor warrior 26 minion

lava gorgon 26 skirmisher

marut battlemaster 26 elite solider

superior fire titan 26 elite solider

rot spewer 27 artillery

demonfang golem 27 elite brute

stormforged colossus 27 elite brute

vecna's silence 28 solo brute...

now must go hop in the tub and actually read a bit...

[Yo! Master]

That's a lot of monsters, especially high Lvl. ones (i'm not sure i really like that, as i'd prefer more lower Lvl. stuff, actually, at the moment).

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

That's a lot of monsters, especially high Lvl. ones (i'm not sure i really like that, as i'd prefer more lower Lvl. stuff, actually, at the moment).

It uses lots of monsters from the Monster Manual. It is 30 delves. One for each level. So no worries about not having stuff for lower levels.

[Yo! Master]

It uses lots of monsters from the Monster Manual. It is 30 delves. One for each level. So no worries about not having stuff for lower levels.

I was referring to the new stuff appearing in the book (& in general). :p

[Abulia]

now must go hop in the tub and actually read a bit...
Wait? You read your D&D books in the bathtub? :eek:

And dibs on the shadar-kai swordmage.

[EvilSchemer]

Wait? You read your D&D books in the bathtub? :eek:


My mental pages warp at the mere thought of reading books in the tub.

[james1889]

Heh, with a five-month-old baby, the bathtub is pretty much the only place I can get any proper reading done. It is my sanctuary (and the 4th ed books stand up to it pretty well, so they must be decently bound).

I dropped my 1st ed WFRP in the bathtub years ago, and it still has a nice crinkly effect, which just adds to the feel. Maybe I should fire a flintlock at it as well at some point...

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Wait? You read your D&D books in the bathtub? :eek:


Sure! I love reading in the tub. I have never had any trouble. It is my favorite spot to read actually.

Am at work now, but during lunch will post all my impressions about Dungeon Delve so far.:D

[Dormammu]

Am at work now, but during lunch will post all my impressions about Dungeon Delve so far.:D
Thanks for all your spoilerific work!

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Adversarial DMing: This is the number one concept change for the Delves. They can be used as fluffer encounters for your regular games, but they are created to be used as a battle of wits players versus DM. This totally makes me think of X-Crawl.

Delves are con events that started in 1998 as combination demo, meet and greet with industry heads, and battle royale with rankings and lists of the fallen. This idea is that informed the supplement of Dungeon Delve.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Thanks for all your spoilerific work!

No worries! Hope to do lots more this afternoon!

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Hints of what to come...

Delve Level 1: A dwarven mine is under assault by a powerul (and emblematic) foe. (Tiles: Halls of the Giant Kings)

Delve Level 2: Woodsfolk plead for help with local bandits who have holed up in a dilapidated tower. (Tiles: Fane of the Forgotten Gods)

Delve Level 3: An invasion force of orcs has claimed a local human lord's keep. Get it back for him! (Tiles: Halls of the Giant Kings)

Delve Level 4: The players come to pyramid hideout to claim justice against a group of Gnoll raiders after several bloody and gruesome assualts on caravans. (Tiles: Dire Tombs)

Delve Level 5: A local necromancer has uncovered the tomb of an ancient tiefling empress. What does he want to there? Stop his nefarious plans. (Tiles: Dire Tombs)

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Delve Level 6: Investigating rumors of serpent cult harassing a nearby town, the players head out into the swamp and find a partially sunken, overgrown temple. What evil lurks inside? (Tiles: Fane of the Forgotten Gods)

Delve Level 7: An ancient leader of good is prophesied to return. But investigations must be made into his catacombs to see if this is necessarily a good thing. (Tiles: Dire Tombs)

Delve Level 8: A city suffers from a bout of mysterious killings. A divination attempt points a local curio shop as key. What mystery is about to unfold? (Tiles: Streets of Shadow)

Delve Level 9: A local temple dedicated to Bahamut is not what it seems. Expose the evil. (Tiles: Fane of the Forgotten Gods)

Delve Level 10: A den of vampires rules the surrounding human domains. Some even welcome their rulership. Now a naughty necromancer has shown up and plans to mix things up. (Tiles: Dire Tombs)

[hong]

Delve Level 10: A den of vampires rules the surrounding human domains. Some even welcome their rulership. Now a naughty necromancer has shown up and plans to mix things up. (Tiles: Dire Tombs)

OMG TEH ANGST

I am SO running this.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Delve Level 11: A famous scholar and artifact collector has recently passed away. The players are publically invited to attend the reading of his last will and testament. What could possibly go wrong? (Tiles: Streets of Shadow)

Delve Level 12: A green dragon now fancies itself a deity and has attracted a slew of reptilian followers who are houndling local elvish settlements. Help the elves. (Tiles: Fane of the Forgotten Gods)

Delve Level 13: Is a recently spotted githyanki cadre the lead force for an astral sea invasion? It is up to the players to find out.

Delve Level 14: Recent earthquakes have unearthed a small section of an ancient dwarven fortress leads to the underdark. Mind flayers, drow, and grimlocks, oh my! (Tiles: Dire Tombs)

Delve Level 15: A band of dark fey raid an eladrin city and kidnap several respected elders. The local fomorain leader denies responsibility, but eladrin refues to hear it. PCs must investigate the disapperance and stop the oncoming war. (Tiles: Caves of Carnage)

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Delve Level 16 A random and dangerously expanding portal to the Elemental Chaos has opened near the PCs residence. It is up to them to get through to the other side and close it. (Tiles: Halls of the Giant Kings)

Delve Level 17: A holy hero was selected and sent forth with the holy sword of his church. He has gone missing. The priest hire the players to find out the fate of the hero and to return the holy relic (Tiles: Need 2 sets of Halls of the Giant Kings)

lunch time over....

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

OMG TEH ANGST

I am SO running this.

Sounds good, doesn't it?:D

[jimthegray]

Wait? You read your D&D books in the bathtub? :eek:

And dibs on the shadar-kai swordmage.

I thought every gamer did

[Memona]

Need 2 sets of Halls of the Giant Kings

I really hope WOTC plans to reprint this set.

[Beri]

Adversarial DMing: This is the number one concept change for the Delves. They can be used as fluffer encounters for your regular games, but they are created to be used as a battle of wits players versus DM. This totally makes me think of X-Crawl.


Interesting. So they're much more board games in that sense - and the GM can win? I like it. It won't win 4e any admirers from the 'OMG itz WoW' camp, but I like it.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Interesting. So they're much more board games in that sense - and the GM can win? I like it. It won't win 4e any admirers from the 'OMG itz WoW' camp, but I like it.

When I was reading the section on how to run a Delve "properly" (adversarial DMing), I keep thinking exactly the same thing... "What a cool and fun concept but boy, is the anti-4E crowd going to have a heyday with this."

[Inyssius]

I'm still wondering if any adventures are set on the Astral Sea...

[La Maupin]

When I was reading the section on how to run a Delve "properly" (adversarial DMing), I keep thinking exactly the same thing... "What a cool and fun concept but boy, is the anti-4E crowd going to have a heyday with this."
The adversarial-DM model has been around as long as there have been tournament games that need to determine a winner and a loser.

I suppose somebody could go OMG WOW as regards a model that can be demonstrated to exist since some of the earliest published D&D models... but they'd be a complete dink, wouldn't they?

[Yo! Master]

but they'd be a complete dink, wouldn't they?

Reality has never let me down in this regard!

But i don't believe the book will even register, considering the other 'big issues' that are still talked about.



P.S. Want!

[Saz]

Any new crunch for pc's? Like new powers or feats?

Thanks!

[Nahualt]

TYVM for this review, I am soo gonna buy this book now. :D

[Yo! Master]

Any new crunch for pc's? Like new powers or feats?

Thanks!

This doesn't sound like the book to have them really (apart from maybe an Item or two).

[andreww]

I wasnt going to bother with this but now I am tempted.

How much background detail is provided for the encounters beyond just combat and tactics stuff?

[Stalkre]

When I was reading the section on how to run a Delve "properly" (adversarial DMing), I keep thinking exactly the same thing... "What a cool and fun concept but boy, is the anti-4E crowd going to have a heyday with this."
Actually, as someone who stayed with 3e, I'm considering getting just this book and treating it like a board game of sorts. I did enjoy the tactical combat portion of 4e when we played.

[Arawn76]

When I was reading the section on how to run a Delve "properly" (adversarial DMing), I keep thinking exactly the same thing... "What a cool and fun concept but boy, is the anti-4E crowd going to have a heyday with this."

They should play Tomb of Horrors. :D

[Yo! Master]

Actually, as someone who stayed with 3e, I'm considering getting just this book and treating it like a board game of sorts. I did enjoy the tactical combat portion of 4e when we played.

As i have been saying, i'd rather play this / 4e in a pure board-game fashion than, say, Descent.

[hong]

Just an FYI: Dungeon 160 has a delve from the book, "Summer's End" for 18th level characters.

[La Maupin]

As i have been saying, i'd rather play this / 4e in this pure board-game fashion than, say, Descent.
I eventually gave up on Descent - much as I loved the concept and wanted to love the game - because it was essentially broken in ways that I could not fix.

[Dormammu]

Just an FYI: Dungeon 160 has a delve from the book, "Summer's End" for 18th level characters.
I thought that was "in the style" of the book but not an actual excerpt. They also said something about publishing more delves if response was favorable.

[Beri]

I eventually gave up on Descent - much as I loved the concept and wanted to love the game - because it was essentially broken in ways that I could not fix.

Agreed - I so desperately wanted Descent to be fun, and it just kept letting me down over and over. I'll take D&D 4e any day. I'm still kinda worried about running 4e with adversarial GMing, but it does have one big advantage: if the players have their characters, I can slap down some tiles and start running after a brief look-over of the encounter. Descent always takes me like an hour to pull everything out, shuffle the respective decks, set up the map, and get started.

[Inyssius]

I thought that was "in the style" of the book but not an actual excerpt.

Theoretically possible, but I doubt it:

This article gives D&D Insiders
the chance to get a first look
at Dungeon Delve, the new
hardcover D&D supplement
releasing in February, 2009.
Straight from the pages of
Dungeon Delve, we bring you
“Summer’s End,” a short adventure
for 18th-level characters.

[Dormammu]

Theoretically possible, but I doubt it:
Dang. I guess I remembered it incorrectly. Valuefail!

It's also disappointing because I was definitely underwhelmed by that delve. That backstory was cool, but the delve itself felt nonsensical. Treants and harpies and cyclops and hounds and so forth all in a tiny 3-room area felt artificial to me.

[Hellzon]

Dang. I guess I remembered it incorrectly. Valuefail!

It's also disappointing because I was definitely underwhelmed by that delve. That backstory was cool, but the delve itself felt nonsensical. Treants and harpies and cyclops and hounds and so forth all in a tiny 3-room area felt artificial to me.

Yeah, I was underwhelmed too. And the suggested expansions to the delve felt incredibly railroady.

So, question for SpringsBoundlessThorns: How long are these delves? All about 4-5 encounters in a similarly cramped dungeon?

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Just an FYI: Dungeon 160 has a delve from the book, "Summer's End" for 18th level characters.

Yes, this is the same one that is in the book.

More to come today and will answer all questions after lunch.

[Ineti]

Explain the bit about the tiles, please. Is each delve built with a specific set of tiles? If so, does the cartography in the book match what the tiles look like, so if I had a set of the right tiles, I could build the map as shown in the book?

[Yo! Master]

Explain the bit about the tiles, please. Is each delve built with a specific set of tiles? If so, does the cartography in the book match what the tiles look like, so if I had a set of the right tiles, I could build the map as shown in the book?

Yes.

They use the various sets of tiles that WotC has been putting out. You have the tiles (specific sets, in fact, it looks like for each Delve)? You can arrange them as shown in the accompanying maps & play.

(This, in fact, is how WotC has been doing with all the RPGA adventures & other stuff outside the books / Dungeon.)

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Explain the bit about the tiles, please. Is each delve built with a specific set of tiles? If so, does the cartography in the book match what the tiles look like, so if I had a set of the right tiles, I could build the map as shown in the book?

That's an easy one.:) Yes and yes. If you have the set (or sometime sets) you can throw down your tiles in a jiffy and be ready to go.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Yeah, I was underwhelmed too. And the suggested expansions to the delve felt incredibly railroady.

So, question for SpringsBoundlessThorns: How long are these delves? All about 4-5 encounters in a similarly cramped dungeon?

Really? I think Summer's End is rather tight. Before I get to that let me go over a few points...

1. Delves are expressly NOT roleplaying showcases. They are a series of interesting tactical encounters with a veneer of story.

2. All delves are exactly 3 encounters long and most seem to have the big whang-do of a fight as the 3rd encounter. They all have a simple set-up and several options for expanding the delve. Some include sidebar information for treasures, new monsters, or interesting NPCs.

3. Telling quote: "In the Delve format, the DM can bypass narration and storytelling to simply concentrate on the rules and monsters. It becomes almost a BOARDGAME approach, which if fine for teaching new DMs the ropes or for playing a quick but intense DnD experience."

4. But it does go on to say more experienced DMs are sure to add flavor and spice and everything nice and the delve's stories, settings, and flavor text are meant to facilitate that.

Now back to Summer's End...

Railroady? Hmmm. Well of course the delve is. It is meant to be. But the expansion options of the 4, only 1 is. And 2 are completely free form.

Nonsensical? Again, hmmm. This is the hideout of a wicked eladrin youngster and her dark fairy playmates (who really are playing her). It works for me.

If you don't like the delve level 18, you are not going to be into this book. Summer's End is an excellent example of what this book is trying to achieve so it is a good litmus test for your purchase.

[Dormammu]

1. Delves are expressly NOT roleplaying showcases. They are a series of interesting tactical encounters with a veneer of story.
I actually found the Summer's End back story to be surprisingly robust. In fact, it seemed like there was way more flavor than you'd need to run the delves, which was kinda cool.

What I personally didn't like was that the encounters felt like they ignored the story and went purely after "tactical interest." Mixing random monsters together with no story is a little disappointing to me. I find the sample encounters in the Monster Manual suffer from this too.

In the case of Summer's End, it was really the first encounter that bothered me most. Treemen and harpies? Really? It seemed so completely random. The harpies are the single, worst part. Just my feel from it. Basically I read the intro and got excited. Then I looked at the encounters and thought, "Huh what?"

[andreww]

In the case of Summer's End, it was really the first encounter that bothered me most. Treemen and harpies? Really? It seemed so completely random. The harpies are the single, worst part. Just my feel from it. Basically I read the intro and got excited. Then I looked at the encounters and thought, "Huh what?"
I can see how that might be jarring but if running 4e has shown me anything its that changing monsters to suit what you want is amazingly simple.

Turn them into malevolent dryads and you are good to go.

[hong]

Actually, I'd keep the monsters but change the terrain. Instead of yet another underground dungeon, turn it into a group of forest clearings or somesuch.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

I actually found the Summer's End back story to be surprisingly robust. In fact, it seemed like there was way more flavor than you'd need to run the delves, which was kinda cool.

What I personally didn't like was that the encounters felt like they ignored the story and went purely after "tactical interest." Mixing random monsters together with no story is a little disappointing to me. I find the sample encounters in the Monster Manual suffer from this too.

In the case of Summer's End, it was really the first encounter that bothered me most. Treemen and harpies? Really? It seemed so completely random. The harpies are the single, worst part. Just my feel from it. Basically I read the intro and got excited. Then I looked at the encounters and thought, "Huh what?"

Harpies nesting in the trees? It worked for me, but like andreww said reskinning is no problem (if you are into that).

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

Actually, I'd keep the monsters but change the terrain. Instead of yet another underground dungeon, turn it into a group of forest clearings or somesuch.

This was the change I was thinking about making as well using my outdoor tile sets.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

I actually found the Summer's End back story to be surprisingly robust. In fact, it seemed like there was way more flavor than you'd need to run the delves, which was kinda cool.

Actually this true for almost all the delves. The story is veneer but wow, is it ever colorful.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

I'd like to know about any encounters that take place on the Astral Sea.

Looks like everywhere else but. I could be wrong so will check again.

[DocTheWeasel]

How easily do you think the Delves could be expanded into something larger, storywise? (In the sense that you could write "full" adventure with the story setup by just adding some encounters/fleshing out the existing story elements)

[Neil Phillips]

Delve Level 6: Investigating rumors of serpent cult harassing a nearby town, the players head out into the swamp and find a partially sunken, overgrown temple. What evil lurks inside? (Tiles: Fane of the Forgotten Gods)

I so needed this book! At level 6 I ran the party through a partially sunken overgrown temple, with an evil inside worshipped by a lizardman tribe... (It was the first adventure I wrote for 4E and it didn't go swimmingly. Story-wise OK but my encounters were unbalanced and I made the over-level solo brute mistake at the end..)

Delve Level 9: A local temple dedicated to Bahamut is not what it seems. Expose the evil. (Tiles: Fane of the Forgotten Gods)

..and I was going to run something like this soon to give the Cleric of Bahamut something intresting to do (party currently level 7).

PLus our sessions tend to run about 3 encounters each.

Must-have purchase for me!

[Ineti]

Thanks for the info! I'll be scoring me a copy of this book soon as I can.

[Dormammu]

I really hope WOTC plans to reprint this set.
It's weird that it's out of print barely six months later...

[Memona]

It's weird that it's out of print barely six months later...

It's currently selling for $15 on ebay. The tiles will probably reach a higher value when Dungeon Delve hits the shelves. You are telling me that I need two copies of the Halls of the Giant King now?

Hmm, a reprint looks to be needed in order. Otherwise, a majority of people are not going to be able to play the first level dungeon. A majority of new people who get into the hobby are getting to be put off. I mean, imagine if you just started into the hobby and you were looking forward to rolling some of those of those funny dice. You buy this book thinking it will have just everything to play the game. But you learn you need one more set of tiles, only to find they are out of print.

I just can't imagine why WOTC wouldn't reprint these sets. In fact, a piece of me feels that they are already in the process.

[hong]

Todays' Dragon update is an article on using and customising delves:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090220

Seems to be overall commonsense stuff.

[questinggm]

Is there any mention of a scoring system/sheet?

I seem to remember that one of the excerpts mentioned that there would be something to measure how well your characters perform for each delve.

[Lizard]

I am very irked at putting "new" monsters in a mostly-useless (to me) book of maps. I really can't justify buying it for that small amount of actually useful content, but it's pretty clear WOTC is hoping I (rather, people like me, who do not buy modules, ever) would do so.

(Let's not even discuss how the Dragon article is 9 pages of, basically, advertising -- shouldn't that kind of thing be part of the free content? It's like being asked to pay money to watch a movie trailer. (Granted, I did go see some utterly forgettable thing to catch the Phantom Menace teaser trailer, but I was young and foolish back then...))

[andreww]

(Let's not even discuss how the Dragon article is 9 pages of, basically, advertising -- shouldn't that kind of thing be part of the free content? It's like being asked to pay money to watch a movie trailer. (Granted, I did go see some utterly forgettable thing to catch the Phantom Menace teaser trailer, but I was young and foolish back then...))
Yeah, Dragon has always been an advert free paid for publication. Wizards is totally ripping us off.

[Augusten]

I am very irked at putting "new" monsters in a mostly-useless (to me) book of maps...

And won't those "new" monsters be starring in the ddi Compendium next month?

[Lizard]

Yeah, Dragon has always been an advert free paid for publication. Wizards is totally ripping us off.

Uhm...

Most magazines make a distinction between advertising and editorial. :)

Also, while Dragon has a long tradition of "Tie in" articles, going all the way back to the 1970s, they are usually not QUITE so content free. There's a difference between the Dhampyr article, which came out alongside Open Grave, and this bit of fluff. "Stuff we wanted to include, but couldn't" is a good Dragon fodder; "How to use this book: Open it and play some maps" is not.

[Wiseblood]

I am very irked at putting "new" monsters in a mostly-useless (to me) book of maps. I really can't justify buying it for that small amount of actually useful content, but it's pretty clear WOTC is hoping I (rather, people like me, who do not buy modules, ever) would do so.

(Let's not even discuss how the Dragon article is 9 pages of, basically, advertising -- shouldn't that kind of thing be part of the free content? It's like being asked to pay money to watch a movie trailer. (Granted, I did go see some utterly forgettable thing to catch the Phantom Menace teaser trailer, but I was young and foolish back then...))

You must gnash your teeth every time a module gets released then since I think they've all had at least one new monster in them. Besides it's not hard to wait for a compendium update is it?

[Ineti]

And won't those "new" monsters be starring in the ddi Compendium next month?

This. Don't buy the book but rather put the money toward a DDI subscription, and boom, you got all the monsters out of Delve, plus all the monsters out of every other 4e book, module, and Dungeon and Dragon for a fraction of the price. :)

[Lizard]

This. Don't buy the book but rather put the money toward a DDI subscription, and boom, you got all the monsters out of Delve, plus all the monsters out of every other 4e book, module, and Dungeon and Dragon for a fraction of the price. :)

Since I already have a DDI subscription, it seems my work is done. :)

[Dormammu]

It's not as if the monsters seem particularly iconic or anything. Probably wouldn't miss much even if you couldn't get them through DDI.

[Lizard]

It's not as if the monsters seem particularly iconic or anything. Probably wouldn't miss much even if you couldn't get them through DDI.

I just like monsters. :)

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

How easily do you think the Delves could be expanded into something larger, storywise? (In the sense that you could write "full" adventure with the story setup by just adding some encounters/fleshing out the existing story elements)

Very very easily. The story seeds alone are worth the price of the book IMO.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

I so needed this book! At level 6 I ran the party through a partially sunken overgrown temple, with an evil inside worshipped by a lizardman tribe... (It was the first adventure I wrote for 4E and it didn't go swimmingly. Story-wise OK but my encounters were unbalanced and I made the over-level solo brute mistake at the end..)



..and I was going to run something like this soon to give the Cleric of Bahamut something intresting to do (party currently level 7).

PLus our sessions tend to run about 3 encounters each.

Must-have purchase for me!

Tell us what you think after you get it. And the sunken jungle temple delve is just great!

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

The remaining delves:

19: Every priest in the city had the same dream of a hidden temple nearby besieged by evil. Go stop all this badness.

20: Orcus's chosen one, the hierophant, is training a crack team of big baddies for a massive raid on the real world. The PCs head to the Abyss for this delve to thwart the machinations of Orcus and pals.

21: Rakshasas seek something known as "Bahamut's Shame". What is it and what nefarious plans do they have for it?

22: Field trip to the Nine Hells. Devils have come and taken loved ones and friends. Show those devils the error of their enslaving ways.

23: A weird and wacky ritual trapped a mighty lich within its own phylactery. Unforeseen side effect: the phylactery is indestructable with the lich inside and to make matters worse the ritual is failing. the PCs must travel into the phylactery and face the lich on its home turf.

24: Orcus and his buddy the hierophant return to wreck more undead havoc and hijinx.

25: Formal primordial servant sets his ambitious eye of the goal of becoming a demigod of flame and destruction. This can't be good.

26: The Raven Queen doesn't stand for traitors in her midst. Yet one of her most valued death knights has turned on her and publicly avows she must be destroyed. Shut his stinking mouth.

27: More primordial fun! This time storm titans seek to bring back one of the fallen masters of mindless destruction.

28: Orcus part III: The PCs just can't stop their bullying of the Demon Lord of the Undead. This time their gonna go pick on Doresain, the Ghoul King and show him who is boss. Say uncle!

29: What is more fun than a lich? A draco-lich! With an totally unfindable phylactery. Draco-lich has been put down twice before but keeps coming back for more. Oracles say that if not put to eternal rest, big horrible world changing badness will come about. Is the third time the charm?

30: ??????:D

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

The bad and the ugly:

Although I do really like this product and feel it is useful for numerous different reasons to DMs from beginners to advanced, it is not without warts.

Here are the warts:

Very little art. What there is is in the beginning and is good, but there is no flavor art in the delves or for the new monsters. I am sure it because of layout concerns for getting 30 mini-modules in one book BUT I would have payed a bit more for a sexier book.

Too tied to the same sets of dungeon tiles. The maps get rather repetitive and some are just down right silly for the story. They should have allowed using more than one set and shouldn't have used Fane of the Forgotten Gods over and over and over.

Too interested in weird monster variety in an attempt to showcase the monsters of the Monster Manual. I am sure the encounters have been perfectly balanced but there are a lot of strange monster groupings that make very little sense in the context of the story given. Easy enough to reskin, but not everyone likes to do that and newer DMs might not even realize it is an option.

[TavishArtair]

Too tied to the same sets of dungeon tiles. The maps get rather repetitive and some are just down right silly for the story. They should have allowed using more than one set and shouldn't have used Fane of the Forgotten Gods over and over and over.

Too interested in weird monster variety in an attempt to showcase the monsters of the Monster Manual. I am sure the encounters have been perfectly balanced but there are a lot of strange monster groupings that make very little sense in the context of the story given. Easy enough to reskin, but not everyone likes to do that and newer DMs might not even realize it is an option.

This is probably the the most annoying part of the 4e adventures I dislike. When more thought to logic and arrangement goes into the creation of FPS maps and the position of teams along them than into the arrangement of dungeons and placement of monsters within them, my face and palm collide. They can have a perfectly sensible story, a decent idea, but when you're actually able to interact with that story by exploring the locale, the fiction breaks down.

I know the delve is just supposed to be a tactical wargame, essentially, but that doesn't mean one should ignore the value of theme, either in an army or deck or... well, dungeon. It diminishes the "coolness' aspect to do so. Certainly some themes are broader than others, but unless every dungeon is a wizard's laboratory... and sometimes even then. One of the most thematic dungeons I've been in throughout gaming that certainly had some focus in mind was the Arcane Sanctum of Diablo 2. Sure, it was just another dungeon with random hellspawn in it, justified by A Wizard Did It, but its idiosyncracies certainly made it stand out.

[Random Code]

I was really looking forward to this book before I read this thread, but now I'm not too sure whether I will buy it or not... Think I'll have to give it the once over at the shop rather than just order it 'blind'.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

I was really looking forward to this book before I read this thread, but now I'm not too sure whether I will buy it or not... Think I'll have to give it the once over at the shop rather than just order it 'blind'.

What about this thread has you second guessing your purchase? I hope I haven't given an overly negative impression because it is a great book just a bit weird at times.

[Wiseblood]

This is probably the the most annoying part of the 4e adventures I dislike. When more thought to logic and arrangement goes into the creation of FPS maps and the position of teams along them than into the arrangement of dungeons and placement of monsters within them, my face and palm collide. They can have a perfectly sensible story, a decent idea, but when you're actually able to interact with that story by exploring the locale, the fiction breaks down.

I know the delve is just supposed to be a tactical wargame, essentially, but that doesn't mean one should ignore the value of theme, either in an army or deck or... well, dungeon. It diminishes the "coolness' aspect to do so. Certainly some themes are broader than others, but unless every dungeon is a wizard's laboratory... and sometimes even then. One of the most thematic dungeons I've been in throughout gaming that certainly had some focus in mind was the Arcane Sanctum of Diablo 2. Sure, it was just another dungeon with random hellspawn in it, justified by A Wizard Did It, but its idiosyncracies certainly made it stand out.

C'mon now stupid monsters in stupid places is a hallmark of D&D. Not an aspect that I personally embrace but to say otherwise just to get an "Oh noes 4e is a video game" jab in is disingenuous.

[ElDiabloBlanco]

Wow, this seems like the first 4e book I'm going to feel compelled to buy since the core.

[Lizard]

C'mon now stupid monsters in stupid places is a hallmark of D&D.

Oh, please! There was always a VERY GOOD REASON why that Huge, Ancient, Red Dragon was in a room which could only be reached via a 10 foot corridor, right next door to three Type VI demons on his left and a pair of mated manticores on his right!

[Random Code]

What about this thread has you second guessing your purchase? I hope I haven't given an overly negative impression because it is a great book just a bit weird at times.

I'd have preferred more thought put into the themes of the dungeons and larger dungeons with just some advice/samples for scaling up and down th eencounters based upon play groups of higher/lower level. Currently, reading this thread, because there is a dungeon for each level it sounds like they're all around 3 rooms/encounters in size. Which just seems a bit, well, weak.

Something along the lines of 3 larger dungeons for each tier that are archetypal in nature (eg, haunted crypt, abandoned watchtower, citadel, slave ship, tower, caverns, dungeon, etc). And If there were a smaller amount with options on re-skinning the dungeon and reducing/increasing the level then I could see more of a use in the book. You know, for instance, if you take one of my examples (citadel) you could have the standard option as an Orc stronghold but then give reskinning options to change it to a Githyanki fortress or Drow or Mind Flayer or whatever... I'm not saying they don't have that flavour but their small size appears to be limiting those options.

I'm not saying it sounds bad, it's just not what I wanted or was expecting. And it seems like a missed opportunity because of that.

[Inyssius]

Not an aspect that I personally embrace but to say otherwise just to get an "Oh noes 4e is a video game" jab in is disingenuous.

Huh? He didn't actually do that. Or say anything like that. In fact, he was touting Diablo 2's Arcane Sanctuary level as one of the most memorable and thematic dungeons he had ever seen. Read more carefully: he was actually saying exactly the opposite of what you appear to think he said based on that last sentence.

[Redbeard67]

So I got two questions:

1. Creative Settings: Are they? What I'd like are maps that are more than just a set of rooms. I want an interactive environment that makes each encounter something I've not had to deal with. As a player it is what makes each combat more than just picking a power and rolling d20. As a DM, it is both the most rewarding but also the most difficult part of my encounter preparation.
If the encounters are simply: 4 soldiers, 1 artillery, 1 leader in a different skin then I can do that myself. If the monsters match a dynamic encounter setting - with either tricks or traps or fungible bits (turning tables over in the tavern, swinging on the chandeliers) then this would be well worth it.


2. A set of self-contained encounters that have room for expansion if desired sound like an awesome resource for a sandbox campaign. Does that sound like it suits?

[Dormammu]

1. Creative Settings: Are they? What I'd like are maps that are more than just a set of rooms. I want an interactive environment that makes each encounter something I've not had to deal with.
Looking at the sample delve they published in Dungeon, this element is present but minor. Specifically, the first encounter has a cauldron that emits a mystic vapor which provides cover for the monsters but not the PCs. Players can attack the cauldron to destroy it. The second encounter has no interactive elements I can recall. The first and third encounters have ritualistic runes on the floors that enable the final boss of the third encounter to use a special attack while standing in either rune. If the players destroyed the rune in the first room, the attack power is weakened.

Beyond that, there are only simple terrain and light level encounter features.

2. A set of self-contained encounters that have room for expansion if desired sound like an awesome resource for a sandbox campaign. Does that sound like it suits?
This is one of the main intents of Dungeon Delve. The stuff I have seen does look good for this. Although not all might fit in every different campaign, you're sure to find a few. If you don't mind reskinning or changing encounter levels and such, you can probably make most or all work for you.

[SpringsBoundlessThorns]

I'd have preferred more thought put into the themes of the dungeons and larger dungeons with just some advice/samples for scaling up and down th eencounters based upon play groups of higher/lower level. Currently, reading this thread, because there is a dungeon for each level it sounds like they're all around 3 rooms/encounters in size. Which just seems a bit, well, weak....

Yes, the name of the product is a little bit deceptive unless you knew the term Dungeon Delve beforehand. I expected it to be a setting book with lots of extra tricks and nastiness to fill your dungeons.

BTW Dungeon Delves aren't "around" 3 encounters/rooms, they are exactly 3 encounters/rooms. It is part of the design. Dungeon Delves are not meant to be adventures, but tactical exercises that pit the DM against the player. Also, it can be used as a set of quick 'drop and play' encounters if you need something similiar in your regular game. Last, they are meant as beginner DM training tools. For what it sets out to do, it does very well. But if you aren't interested in the above, you will find the book disappointing.

[Random Code]

Cheers for the info, SpringsBoundlessThorns. Its much appreciated.

I think beyond the FR setting books this will now be the first D&D4e book that I don't purchase. Which is funny as it was one of the ones I was looking forward to the most. Ah well.