View Full Version : [4e] Swordbond - most worthless class feature ever?
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 02:41 PM
So...
I'm generating some pre-made PCs for a game I'll be running in a couple weeks and one of them is a Swordmage. Now, on first glance, Swordbond looks completely worthless. Then you read all the Swordmages At-Wills and other spells and it somehow manages to look even more worthless (since it doesn't interact with them in any way I can see). So tell me...
Can I switch this out for something less lame without throwing off the balance of the class? And would I be right in doing so?
I'm thinking of switching it out for the feat that let's them use their Int for to hit and damage on basic attacks or giving them the Ritual Caster feat.
Inyssius
03-21-2009, 02:50 PM
Can't see how it would hurt.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 02:54 PM
Can't see how it would hurt.
Am I way off base that Swordbond is really, really worthless?
Like...I can't even imagine a situation that isn't completely contrived where it would be useful.
Inyssius
03-21-2009, 03:00 PM
None whatsoever. If it was a minor action, that would be handy. I can think of several situations of the top of my head where it would have been handy, in fact, and I've only seen a swordmage in play once.
But it isn't, so it's more or less totally worthless.
Killfalcon
03-21-2009, 03:03 PM
Am I way off base that Swordbond is really, really worthless?
Like...I can't even imagine a situation that isn't completely contrived where it would be useful.
Showing off and stunts, mostly. Possily it's related to the whole teleporting schenanigans, to counter the possibility of a Swordmage dropping his blade when incapacitated, healing up, then blinking elsewhere to make a basic attack (thanks to a mark) before he has a chance to pick his sword back up. More likely, it's just so the swordmage can add a bit of flavour to his attacks and stuff.
(edit: ignore half of that, it's not a minor action bah. Just make it a minor action already).
I'm 99% sure the class doesn't 'pay' for the ability at all, so I think switching it for something useful might not be a good idea. It's just a freebie thing that lets you, once in a blue moon, do something cool.
devlin1
03-21-2009, 03:06 PM
So...
I'm generating some pre-made PCs for a game I'll be running in a couple weeks and one of them is a Swordmage. Now, on first glance, Swordbond looks completely worthless. Then you read all the Swordmages At-Wills and other spells and it somehow manages to look even more worthless (since it doesn't interact with them in any way I can see). So tell me...
Can I switch this out for something less lame without throwing off the balance of the class? And would I be right in doing so?
I'm thinking of switching it out for the feat that let's them use their Int for to hit and damage on basic attacks or giving them the Ritual Caster feat.
So you're going to switch out what you see as a useless class feature for the Intelligent Blademaster feat? Doesn't that make the class unbalanced, then?
Personally, I don't see the ability to call your blade to your hand from 10 squares away to be useless at all. It's conditionally useful, yes, but I can certainly think of plenty of conditions where it'd come into play.
Also, if you're making these PCs for a one-shot that you're running, then what's stopping you from building a situation into that one-shot in which Swordbond would be of use?
Dormammu
03-21-2009, 03:09 PM
I agree that swapping it out would probably be imbalancing. I don't think the feature is meant to be "good", so giving them something good instead might be buffing the class overall.
That said, I don't think 4E is so tightly reined in that giving them a bonus feat instead would break it. But if any of your other players know the system well, they might complain that they want a free feat too. That would be the bigger risk, honestly.
Inyssius
03-21-2009, 03:10 PM
But it's a standard action! You have to lose your turn to do anything with it!
"Possily it's related to the whole teleporting schenanigans, to counter the possibility of a Swordmage dropping his blade when incapacitated, healing up, then blinking elsewhere to make a basic attack (thanks to a mark) before he has a chance to pick his sword back up."
It doesn't counter that! You still do that! Swordbond just lets you lose a turn to pick your sword up instead of running back over and getting it!
"More likely, it's just so the swordmage can add a bit of flavour to his attacks and stuff."
But... what? You have to completely give up your "attacks and stuff" to use it!
Dormammu
03-21-2009, 03:24 PM
But it's a standard action! You have to lose your turn to do anything with it!
It doesn't counter that! You still do that! Swordbond just lets you lose a turn to pick your sword up instead of running back over and getting it!
But... [I]what? You have to completely give up your "attacks and stuff" to use it!
I think you're overthinking it. It's just a flavor ability. It's not meant to be "good" in the sense that you want to use it. It just allows for a specific concept of the magical bond to the sword. It would rarely come up in game and is not meant to be a feature of the Swordmage per se. But on the other hand, there could be cool moments like being imprisoned and the Swordmage summons his or her blade to effect an escape.
Stephenls
03-21-2009, 03:26 PM
Okay, that was the weirdest quoting glitch I have ever seen.
Naxuul
03-21-2009, 03:31 PM
I figure it's just a flavor ability. Something along the lines of Rogues bumping the damage die of shuriken so you can have your ninja without them being mechanically inferior to knife throwers or hand crossbows.
-Naxuul
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 03:32 PM
...cool moments like being imprisoned and the Swordmage summons his or her blade to effect an escape.
Where her sword is only 10 squares away? And she manages to hack her way through whatever cage she's in before her captors can see what's happening?
I agree that conditionally it is possible to come up with a scenario where Swordbond is more than a waste of the ink used to write it but it's a pretty big stretch of the imagination. As has been pointed out, it's a standard action to summon it and their are zero rules as far as I can see for being disarmed so it's not even like that's a danger to the Swordmage.
Really I think I find it so confusing because I'd rather it not be there and just be a feat because the fact that it's included as a Class Feature makes me think that it's supposed to be some benefit when really it's not. At all.
Maybe I'll just change Swordbond so that it also allows the Swordmage to use his Int bonus instead of Str bonus with melee basic attacks with the sword bound by Swordbond only. That would make it a little less awkward to me.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 03:34 PM
I figure it's just a flavor ability. Something along the lines of Rogues bumping the damage die of shuriken so you can have your ninja without them being mechanically inferior to knife throwers or hand crossbows.
-Naxuul
I can get that it's in there for flavor. What I can't get is why the DM would jump through the hoops required to set up this situation just so the PC could ever get to use this feature.
I don't know why it bothers me so much but I read that ability again this morning and went into a simmering nerdrage.
Chucky
03-21-2009, 04:00 PM
I can get that it's in there for flavor. What I can't get is why the DM would jump through the hoops required to set up this situation just so the PC could ever get to use this feature.
I don't know why it bothers me so much but I read that ability again this morning and went into a simmering nerdrage.
You don't, your job as the DM is to think quickly on your feet when the player comes up with a use for that ability that you didn't see coming that completely short circuits what you had planned.
Tokezo Tenken
03-21-2009, 04:01 PM
I can get that it's in there for flavor. What I can't get is why the DM would jump through the hoops required to set up this situation just so the PC could ever get to use this feature.
I don't know why it bothers me so much but I read that ability again this morning and went into a simmering nerdrage.
Use it like the Jedi used it in the Star Wars movies. There are several instances where one of them zips their lightsaber to themselves and proceeds to hack up the enemy.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 04:02 PM
You don't, your job as the DM is to think quickly on your feet when the player comes up with a use for that ability that you didn't see coming that completely short circuits what you had planned.
Oh nads! The PC used up his entire turn making his sword teleport into his hand!! How will I keep things on track!!!
The problem is that the Swordbond power, as currently written, requires the DM to create a contrived situation where it would ever be useful. It's like giving the Fighter a class feature that says, "Can perfectly paint kittens." It just makes me scratch my head and ask, "So what?"
Killfalcon
03-21-2009, 04:04 PM
But it's a standard action! You have to lose your turn to do anything with it!
Yeah, I had a brain fart and assumed it wasn't a standard action. I editted my post when I realised, but forgot to refresh the thread fist. :o
Just make it a minor, or even a free action, and suddenly it sucks less without making a good class a whole feat better.
In the game I'm running, at one point we had three defenders. A paladin, a fighter, and a swordmage. Only the swordmage is still alive, and there was never any question about his ability to Defend things.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 04:06 PM
Use it like the Jedi used it in the Star Wars movies. There are several instances where one of them zips their lightsaber to themselves and proceeds to hack up the enemy.
I think that's probably what they were shooting for with the Class Feature. The problem is, since you never normally get disarmed, when is there ever an opportunity?
If you're playing a Swordmage and you think Swordbond is cool so you actively try to put yourself in situations where you use it (such as tossing your sword at enemies or whatever else) you still then have to waste an entire standard action calling it back to your hand. And why would you even throw your sword at someone in the first place since most of your powers require them to be in melee range!
I'll take a look and see how Swordmage stacks up against some other Defender classes though and see if Swordbond should be swapped out for a new power or just ignored altogether.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 04:09 PM
Just make it a minor, or even a free action, and suddenly it sucks less without making a good class a whole feat better.
In the game I'm running, at one point we had three defenders. A paladin, a fighter, and a swordmage. Only the swordmage is still alive, and there was never any question about his ability to Defend things.
Given this testimonial, I might just keep it and make it a minor action. There is a feat that is supposed to reduce it to a minor action so I'll just make that make it a free action. It's still incredibly useless but at least now it's not useless and makes you lose your turn.
Tokezo Tenken
03-21-2009, 04:10 PM
I think that's probably what they were shooting for with the Class Feature. The problem is, since you never normally get disarmed, when is there ever an opportunity?
If you're playing a Swordmage and you think Swordbond is cool so you actively try to put yourself in situations where you use it (such as tossing your sword at enemies or whatever else) you still then have to waste an entire standard action calling it back to your hand. And why would you even throw your sword at someone in the first place since most of your powers require them to be in melee range!
I'll take a look and see how Swordmage stacks up against some other Defender classes though and see if Swordbond should be swapped out for a new power or just ignored altogether.
You're in the evil duke's courtroom. He's demanded that you disarm yourselves at the door in order to enter. The Swordmage is standing in front of the evil duke (on purpose) when the evil duke declares he's now going to have the PCs killed. The Swordmage summons his blade and gains a surprise round. It can be cool. It's not much of a feature, but it's not totally worthless.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 04:14 PM
You're in the evil duke's courtroom. He's demanded that you disarm yourselves at the door in order to enter. The Swordmage is standing in front of the evil duke (on purpose) when the evil duke declares he's now going to have the PCs killed. The Swordmage summons his blade and gains a surprise round. It can be cool. It's not much of a feature, but it's not totally worthless.
As long as the guards holding his sword are standing less than 10 squares away from the PCs and the Swordmage spends an action point to actually do something on the turn he summons his sword. Then, yes.
capnzapp
03-21-2009, 04:25 PM
Given this testimonial, I might just keep it and make it a minor action. There is a feat that is supposed to reduce it to a minor action so I'll just make that make it a free action. It's still incredibly useless but at least now it's not useless and makes you lose your turn.
Well, now that you've told me there's a feat I would keep it as it is.
Using up a standard action is kind of expensive, yes. But retrieving your sword as a minor action?
If anything, make the feature use a move action. And the feat turns that into a minor action as well as doubling the range (20 sq).
Now you've got something that is borderline worthwhile. And that's about as far as this should go.
As people have said, not all features and powers must be actually useful to be cool.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 04:28 PM
As people have said, not all features and powers must be actually useful to be cool.
I guess I just think it's silly to have a power that might come up once over the course of an entire campaign included as if it's a feature of the class. Ok, so my Fighter can "Paint kittens perfectly" as a standard action. They are almost photorealistic. No one in a fight would ever confuse the picture of kittens for real kittens but, seriously, it's very impressive.
Outside of the tone, I don't see a difference between, "as a standard action you can make your sword teleport to you from up to 10 squares away" and "you can paint kittens perfectly as a standard action".
Anyway, I suppose it's just a stylistic choice that rubs me the wrong way. You either make people write down things that are important or let them handwave stuff that isn't and Swordbond feels a lot like specifically notating something that will rarely if ever (and probably never) come up or be useful.
Chucky
03-21-2009, 04:34 PM
Oh nads! The PC used up his entire turn making his sword teleport into his hand!! How will I keep things on track!!!
The problem is that the Swordbond power, as currently written, requires the DM to create a contrived situation where it would ever be useful. It's like giving the Fighter a class feature that says, "Can perfectly paint kittens." It just makes me scratch my head and ask, "So what?"
Giving up your turn doesn't matter outside of combat. Do you honestly think a situation will never come where a player will come up with a use for yanking something to his hand from ten squares away. Not to mention eventually you can take a feat to use it from a mile away.
Ineti
03-21-2009, 05:15 PM
I'll just speak from the opposite side of the fence and say that I thought the ability was kinda neat.
Gave me that Luke-calling-his-lightsaber-to-hand vibe, and reminded me about a scenario my DM threw at us where our heroes were disarmed before going before a king, but our weapons were in the room with us. As expected, the negotiations went poorly and we ended up starting a fight sans weapons. Had there been a swordmage in the group, he might have been able to pull his sword up and deliver the bashing.
I dunno. One person's lame ability is another person's opportunity, I guess.
Flawless Glory of Silence
03-21-2009, 05:42 PM
As someone who's actually played a swordmage, I'm perfectly fine with the ability as-is. Yeah, without feats, it's not gonna be terribly useful too often, but it is an awful fun bit of color.
braincraft
03-21-2009, 05:43 PM
Oh nads! The PC used up his entire turn making his sword teleport into his hand!! How will I keep things on track!!!
The problem is that the Swordbond power, as currently written, requires the DM to create a contrived situation where it would ever be useful. It's like giving the Fighter a class feature that says, "Can perfectly paint kittens." It just makes me scratch my head and ask, "So what?"
Fighters can perfectly paint kittens? Fuck! That completely ruins the campaign outline I had written up. Or else I have to ban Fighters.
Tigerbunny
03-21-2009, 06:29 PM
I find it amusing that we can have a world in which both "they took out all of the cool flavorful stuff and made Everything About Combat... WAAAAAHHHH!!!" and "OH NOES!!! I have an ability which would only very, very rarely help me to Kill Things Dead. THIS SUCKS!!!" are lines of argument that I see daily regarding 4E.
DDogwood
03-21-2009, 07:36 PM
I would be tempted to ignore the feat, and just make Swordbond a minor action that works at any range. That would make it seem much cooler, to me, and yet I still have a hard time seeing how it would be broken at all.
itarakoturo
03-21-2009, 08:36 PM
I was in a party with a Swordmage last month. We had some business to take care of in a high-end gambling den, but we all had to check our weaponry at the door. When things broke down, guess who was the only one who had access to his blade?
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 08:40 PM
I find it amusing that we can have a world in which both "they took out all of the cool flavorful stuff and made Everything About Combat... WAAAAAHHHH!!!" and "OH NOES!!! I have an ability which would only very, very rarely help me to Kill Things Dead. THIS SUCKS!!!" are lines of argument that I see daily regarding 4E.
Except that being able to summon a sword to your hand is pretty explicitly "about combat". They just have a combat where the ability to summon a sword to your hand will probably never be relevant. I like that D&D stopped pretending to be about anything other than skirmish combat...so then why have a non-functional combat-related ability that will never normally be required or useful?
It was a stylistic choice though. Enough people on this thread have said that they like the ability even if it doesn't really do anything so I guess mission accomplished.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 08:46 PM
I would be tempted to ignore the feat, and just make Swordbond a minor action that works at any range. That would make it seem much cooler, to me, and yet I still have a hard time seeing how it would be broken at all.
This would be a lot more sensible to me. It's a combination of the fact that it's a standard action and that it only works at ten squares.
I was in a party with a Swordmage last month. We had some business to take care of in a high-end gambling den, but we all had to check our weaponry at the door. When things broke down, guess who was the only one who had access to his blade?
Must have been a very small gambling den for that to work out squares wise.
flashedarling
03-21-2009, 09:03 PM
Just a thought if you wanted to add more fluff to the swordbond.
How about as part of the swordbond they are able to scry on their blade. Kind of like this...
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=513
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=514
Narshal
03-21-2009, 09:29 PM
Swordbond is very useful considering that Swordmage have Swodmage Warding.
Without their sword (light or heavy blade), they don't have the +1 bonus to AC (+3 if you have the other hand free).
A swordmage that is without his weapon can summon his sword to defend himself.
Note that 10 squares is 50 feet. That's not a close distance.
Scarik
03-21-2009, 09:58 PM
Must have been a very small gambling den for that to work out squares wise.
The funny thing about squares is you measure the distance in squares both horizontally and vertically then take the larger number. So if your sword is 40 to your right and 3 floors above you you can still get it with Swordbond.
And 50' is a pretty big gambling den. Small for a modern casino maybe but most dive bars are less than 50' across.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 10:08 PM
The funny thing about squares is you measure the distance in squares both horizontally and vertically then take the larger number. So if your sword is 40 to your right and 3 floors above you you can still get it with Swordbond.
Wait, wait, wait...
this is kind of off topic but it bears getting clarification...
If something is 5 squares ahead of you but 6 squares above you count it as 6 squares away instead of thinking about it in three dimensional space and making it 11?
Save-vs-DM
03-21-2009, 10:11 PM
I will state that when you don't have someone with thievery trained that throwing your magically repairing and teleporting sword at potential trap triggers it does certainly pull its weight.
Heck, this almost demands a "101 Things to do with Swordbond" thread.
Uqbarian
03-21-2009, 10:13 PM
Wait, wait, wait...
this is kind of off topic but it bears getting clarification...
If something is 5 squares ahead of you but 6 squares above you count it as 6 squares away instead of thinking about it in three dimensional space and making it 11?Yes. (Though thinking in three dimensions would make it more like 8 squares, not 11.)
Tokezo Tenken
03-21-2009, 10:15 PM
Wait, wait, wait...
this is kind of off topic but it bears getting clarification...
If something is 5 squares ahead of you but 6 squares above you count it as 6 squares away instead of thinking about it in three dimensional space and making it 11?
Er. . . no. It would be roughly 7.8 squares away mathematically, but that sucks in a game.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 10:15 PM
Yes. (Though thinking in three dimensions would make it more like 8 squares, not 11.)
:P
Interesting mechanical point though. That doesn't seem to really make any sense at all.
Tokezo Tenken
03-21-2009, 10:16 PM
:P
Interesting mechanical point though. That doesn't seem to really make any sense at all.
It makes as much sense as calculating it at 11 squares.
Inyssius
03-21-2009, 10:19 PM
Wait, wait, wait...
this is kind of off topic but it bears getting clarification...
If something is 5 squares ahead of you but 6 squares above you count it as 6 squares away instead of thinking about it in three dimensional space and making it 11?
In 4e, diagonal distances are exactly the same as cardinal ones. Player's Handbook, chapter 9, page 283.
You ever see people bitching about simulationism? This is what they're talking about.
Gene Freak
03-21-2009, 10:38 PM
In 4e, diagonal distances are exactly the same as cardinal ones. Player's Handbook, chapter 9, page 283.
You ever see people bitching about simulationism? This is what they're talking about.
Oh, I don't really have a big problem with that way of handling it, it's just interesting. I don't think I realized such a rule existed and I probably would have made a very different house rule on the spot had it ever come up. My guess is that some elements of the game are balanced around that presumption, however, so best not to touch it.
Anyway, I'm going to accept the testimony here that Swordmage plays out fine as a Defender without any additional features so I'll just slightly alter the Swordbond feature to be a move action instead of a standard. That rubs me slightly less the wrong way even if I still think it's tremendously boring, at least it's not a boring feature that takes your whole turn.
Save-vs-DM
03-21-2009, 10:50 PM
Anyway, I'm going to accept the testimony here that Swordmage plays out fine as a Defender without any additional features so I'll just slightly alter the Swordbond feature to be a move action instead of a standard. That rubs me slightly less the wrong way even if I still think it's tremendously boring, at least it's not a boring feature that takes your whole turn.
Take it from a guy who has both played one and who GMs for one. They are incredibly sticky if played well, and by the time Epic rolls around they can literally mark everything within 3-5 squares of them as a minor action. Double Aegis and then Total Aegis are just completely amazing.
itarakoturo
03-22-2009, 02:32 AM
I will state that when you don't have someone with thievery trained that throwing your magically repairing and teleporting sword at potential trap triggers it does certainly pull its weight.
Heck, this almost demands a "101 Things to do with Swordbond" thread.
Things to do with Swordbond #85:
Secretly replace one of the legs of the bard's stool with your sword. Summon your sword at the climax of the bard's lute performance.
I'm thinking its a leftover from an earlier incarnation, wherein the powers that involved throwing your weapon did not have the auto-reform clause at the end.
As it is now, its an ok little extra, but I would prefer it to be a minor action.
Thinking about it, a swordmage would make an easily reflavoring for a psychic warrior with a mindblade.
capnzapp
03-22-2009, 04:10 AM
the bard's stool
Eww... that's disgusting!
;)
Ferrus Animus
03-22-2009, 05:45 AM
Basically it seems to supplement the "Throw your sword" powers.
You can call it whenever not just sometimes.
But basically the use is limited. The more you dungeon crawl the less useful it often is.
But it's a ranged "weapon" with unlimited ammo. And in a social the feat that extends it to 1 mile might be very useful.
Mr Adventurer
03-22-2009, 06:40 AM
There is a feat at Heroic tier, Improved Swordbond, which increases the range to 20 squares and makes it a minor action. There's another, better one at a higher tier.
I've used it from time to time to show off.
In the game I'm running, at one point we had three defenders. A paladin, a fighter, and a swordmage. Only the swordmage is still alive, and there was never any question about his ability to Defend things.
Nobody can defeat Mannfred von Herald! Although to be fair, the Fighter was pretending to be a Striker, and the Paladin didn't have very good stats. :D
Random Number
03-22-2009, 11:06 AM
I really like Swordbond. I like the flavorful bits that differentiate the classes outside of combat, partly due to rarity value. It seems like the sort of thing that invites players to come up with ingenious uses for it in skill challenges and sets up little role play opportunities. I feel the same way about the Wizard's cantrips.
Cortani
03-22-2009, 11:36 AM
Read half the thread, sorry if someone else mentioned this:
You use it to cheat. Arrange a situation like a negotiation/bare knuckles match/gun duel where weapons are held by a third party arbitrator/magic cage/friendly rogue.
Also, the notion of relying on the DM to place you in situations where a specific ability easily and obviously solves the issue at hand is problematic IMHO, since it can be interpreted as tantamount to railroading (otoh, some GMs are really good with their "oh you had *that* ability bluff checks).
soviet
03-22-2009, 01:22 PM
I've been playing a swordmage recently. They're fun. The swordbond is just a cool special effect that lets you feel like a jedi. It's not meant to win any adventures for you.
Bahama'at
03-22-2009, 02:00 PM
I find it amusing that we can have a world in which both "they took out all of the cool flavorful stuff and made Everything About Combat... WAAAAAHHHH!!!" and "OH NOES!!! I have an ability which would only very, very rarely help me to Kill Things Dead. THIS SUCKS!!!" are lines of argument that I see daily regarding 4E.Indeed.
Along with "4e totally is devoid of imagination" being coupled with "but X means I need to think or come up with an explanation on my own, WAAAH!"
Shroedinger's edition - it is both too much like a MMO and not enough like one - often for the same people, and paradoxically often on the same topic.
- Ma'at
Kaemaril
03-22-2009, 02:02 PM
So...
I'm generating some pre-made PCs for a game I'll be running in a couple weeks and one of them is a Swordmage. Now, on first glance, Swordbond looks completely worthless. Then you read all the Swordmages At-Wills and other spells and it somehow manages to look even more worthless (since it doesn't interact with them in any way I can see).
Swordbond (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKiZnUc_pmU)? Dunno, but it's quite cool :)
Davidsonshdw
03-22-2009, 02:07 PM
Grab the heroic tier feat that lets you use swordbond as a minor action and recover your sword from up to 20 squares away.
Then at level 11, swap that feat out for the paragon tier feat that lets you use swordbond as a minor action and recover your sword from up to 1 mile away.
Skywalker
03-22-2009, 02:33 PM
I don't know why it bothers me so much but I read that ability again this morning and went into a simmering nerdrage.
My suggestions:
1. Remove the class feature. Its mostly flavour and if the flavour upsets you, remove it. Don't replace it with an additional mechanical advantage.
2. Give it unlimited range, if it is the 10 square range that bothers you.
Must have been a very small gambling den for that to work out squares wise.
A small place with poorly planned out security. Unless this class is so rare as to be relatively unheard of by significant characters in the gameworld, then most of these plans would only work against an idiot. That whole summoning your sword to attack the king thing only happens once per king (at most); after that, he beheads that incompetent captain of the guards and hires someone less stupid.
Gene Freak
03-22-2009, 04:29 PM
Along with "4e totally is devoid of imagination" being coupled with "but X means I need to think or come up with an explanation on my own, WAAAH!"
And the cool thing is, in threads where this isn't really an issue, posters can bring in their baggage and dump it where it's not asked for!
I'm not sure exactly how I want to handle Swordbond yet. My initial inclination is to just make it a minor action but...it still seems weird to be to include something that will only come into play under very extenuating circumstances as a feature of a class.
Swordbond has another power that allows you to recreate a sword from the pieces of it if it gets broken. Are there any rules anywhere in 4e for breaking a weapon in the first place?
Gene Freak
03-22-2009, 04:30 PM
You use it to cheat. Arrange a situation like a negotiation/bare knuckles match/gun duel where weapons are held by a third party arbitrator/magic cage/friendly rogue.
Unless this class is so rare as to be relatively unheard of by significant characters in the gameworld, then most of these plans would only work against an idiot.
Yep.
Neil Phillips
03-22-2009, 05:12 PM
I think we had this exact same thread about Gloves of Storing.
jimthegray
03-23-2009, 12:43 AM
So...
I'm generating some pre-made PCs for a game I'll be running in a couple weeks and one of them is a Swordmage. Now, on first glance, Swordbond looks completely worthless. Then you read all the Swordmages At-Wills and other spells and it somehow manages to look even more worthless (since it doesn't interact with them in any way I can see). So tell me...
Can I switch this out for something less lame without throwing off the balance of the class? And would I be right in doing so?
I'm thinking of switching it out for the feat that let's them use their Int for to hit and damage on basic attacks or giving them the Ritual Caster feat.
In the game I do not run there are cities where you may not wear a weapon.
she keeps her sword in her bag.
and can summon it without issue while the other characters are making do with daggers or make shift weapons
kakita toshimoko
03-23-2009, 01:08 AM
While playing as a swordmage, I honestly do not use swordbond very often. BUT, in my first combat round of my first session with this character he used his swordbond to call his blade. The GM set up the beginning as the characters were on hiatus from adventuring, plowing, chopping wood, etc at the party's base camp. Then they were swarmed with goblins, with no weapons or armor. Came in quite handy in this case. I've also used it after fumbled attacks where the blade went flying in a random direction. Now, without combat moves like sunder I don't see the weapon reforge part being too useful(of course, a fumbled attack could equal a broken blade, too).
Baumi
03-23-2009, 02:06 AM
Let's not forget the second effect of the Swordbond ... the reconstruction of the blade.
While I know of no monster/power that sunders weapons, you can still use it to chip away a SMALL chunk of your weapon, hide it in your boots and if you get captured you only need that small peace and one hour to recreate your blade! :)
Asklepios
03-23-2009, 02:57 AM
In the game I do not run there are cities where you may not wear a weapon.
she keeps her sword in her bag.
and can summon it without issue while the other characters are making do with daggers or make shift weapons
Not a bad idea. Perhaps you could even take the effort to encase the sword in some sort of opaque resin or concrete equivalent, which you could move into the city much more easily.
Another idea:
You could set up a situation where someone else is using your weapon, then pull it back at an opportune moment to instant disarm them. "You should challenge him to a duel... here, borrow my sword, it's enchanted and will give you an edge."
Cortani
03-23-2009, 05:13 AM
Yep.
Bluff skill, do you speak it?
Mozart
03-23-2009, 06:12 AM
A small place with poorly planned out security. Unless this class is so rare as to be relatively unheard of by significant characters in the gameworld, then most of these plans would only work against an idiot.
Because the typical seedy underworld gambling den equips the bouncers with a copy of the FR players' book? :confused:
Assuming that the PCs don't walk around with convenient name badges "Hi, I'm Corrin a 4th level Swordmage" and don't widely advertise their powers, I fail to see why they would regularly encounter people who took extreme precautions to prevent them from being used. A swordmage entering a gambling den is just a guy in leather armour carrying a sword, and even if he has a reputation as a swordsman and initiate of the arcane arts the security staff are hardly going to paint a little white line on the floor 50ft from the door and insist that he stays on the far side of it.
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