Fun with Core Mechanics and other such stuphs

[NPC]

I've been playing and reading rpgs for a long time. I'm not saying I'm the best or the holiest of game designers in Connecticut, but within the group of my friends I'm the only one that holds any interest to the industry. With this in mind I've decided to take a whack at writing some core mechanics. They are vague at best but I've also added a sample game, with added systems (character creation, combat, etc.) that brings the core mechanics into context. I'll write straight from my note pad.

The core of the system is three levels of eight sided dice. These dice are applied to the atribute of a characterm giving the attributes themselves a range of one to three in ability and development.

Level: 1,2,3
Dice: 1d8, 2d8, 3d8
Rolling Range: 1 to 8, 2 to 16, and 3 to 24

The default roll is the attribute dice themselves. The skill number augments the roll by adding to it. The basic success roll is cumilative. All numbers are added up and must meet or exceed the selcted target number.

Strength + Bats = success/failure
2d8 + 3 = 10
6 + 1 + 3 = 10

The target number is ranged by three steps:

Average tasks are 1 to 8
Advanced tasks are 9 to 16
Complex tasks are 17 to 24

In order to resolve combat and other face-off situations the same Attribute + Skill roll is made by each contestant. The highest roll wins.

Strength + Swords vs. Agility + Dodging
2d8 + 5 vs. 1d8 + 4
2 + 1 + 5 vs. 7 + 4
8 vs. 11

In the end the sword blow is dodged

High Roll Rule: If the target number exceeds the possible maximum roll, a roll of all eights will denote an automatic success (This is added to the game to represent Luck, Karma, etc.).

-----------

Arcana, the test game

Arcana is a game based on our modern world. Underneath the city streets and the suburban lights there's a sentience. Older than time itself it waits. Some people have chosen to follow this path; for good and evil. Magic is the center that binds the universe and nature. People have learned to manipulate this magic with raw spells, charms and fear. Now their is an underworld battle. Some want magic for good, others for evil. Arcana is a gritty modern day world of suspence, horror, and mystery.

Step one: Players choose a profession. They are as follows:

*Mundane*
Reporter
Detective
Lawyer
Criminal

*Enlightened*
Druid (Natural magic)
Necromander (Life and death)
Worlock (Systematic spellwork)
Sorcerer (Inherent spell casting)
Diviner (Telepathy, Telekenetics . . creating "miracles" through sub-conscious effort)

Each profession allows certain skills to be bought. They also have their own contacts, friends and information linked to the world.

Step two: Each character has four core Attributes:
Muscle
Intellect
Charisma
Arcana

Characters are given 4 points to purchase the levels (Remember: 1 to 3) for their Attributes.

Level Cost
1 .5
2 1
3 1.5

Step three: Characters have 10 points to purchase skills, using their allowed skill list derived from their profession.


Combat
If an attack succeeds the rating of any armor worn is subtracted from the damage of the weapon. The damage is applied to the characters Health. Health is always 8 points. Situational modifiers (slowed movement in deep snow, bad weather cutting view down, etc) can be applied.

Magic
Spells and powers are used (and bought) just like skills. A roll is made against a target number. If a spell or power is used against a person a face-off roll is made where the appropriate dice are rolled by the user vs. the defenders Arcana dice.

Earning Experience
Each character earns experience points based on intereaction in the game world with other characters (1), representation of the character (2), development of the plot (1 to 2), and knowledge gained in-character (1). A skill costs it's current rating to raise by one point. It costs 20 experience points to raise an Attribute one level. The average Experience ranges from 5 to six, if all criteria are filled.

Now we can all breathe . . . it took much longer than I thought. So what does everyone think? Add a few details to magic, some "Situational Modifier Charts" for combat, skill use and magic . . . maybe concepts on zombies, and other unnatural creatures . . . think this baby could fly? Hehe, either way I hope you enjoyed my somewhat drawn out post. Aloha everyone!

[Andrew Martin]

So how is this system better than simply using, say, Instant Fuzion or Fudge? :) (Some one had to say it.)

[Misguided]

One potential problem with this is that there will be situations where a task is completely impossible for some characters and easy for others. That may not bother you.

Another issue is that the distribution shape changes dramatically. The distribution for 1d8 is uniform (flat line) while 3d8 is a normal curve.

As Andrew said, why not an established system?

[Desperado]

I. Some characters won't be able to acomplish certain tasks while others will.

Well isn't that like any other game? Now when we talk about the Professions in Arcana I'm not going as far as to say Prof. A will have these skills and Prof. B will have these skills. There should be a giant list o' skills. The professions just have unique abilities, contacts, etc. that sets them apart. They should also have access to certain skills on this list no one else does. Maybe the Necromancer and the Worlock can access Alchemy but other characters would have to sacrifice (say, more skill points?) to gain the knowledge.

I don't think a Detective should be able to raise a corpse like a Necromancer. I also don't think a Necromancer, with her intricate carvings, charms, and tattoes (used to create her magic) would be friendly with the cheif of police, or the mayor of a city. It all goes hand in hand.

If we're talking about straight core mechanics I'd say mostly the same thing. Someone with 3 dice in Agility and someone with 1 die in Agility are going to do a lot more even if their skill ratings are both 3. But the deal with that is simple. They have the same level of knowledge to acomplish the task, in a sense. It's now raw physical potential that shall make the difference.

II. Fuzion and Fudge.

I'm going to look up Fuzion and Fudge right now, pick them apart and tehn completely ignore them. Why not Fudge or Fuzion? Games are to personal taste Andrew. core mechanics with out a setting must be vague. Would Fuzion or Fudge handle Arcana just as well or better? Maybe, maybe not. Arcana was just a random imaginative splurt that I came up with. My sceptasizm wasn't asking could the mechanics support the setting in a unique fashion. It was could the mechanics support the setting at all. I believe it's acomplishde the task.

I'm not asking if the mechanics are better or worse than any existing set of mechanics. I'm asking do my particular mechanics function to begin with. Uniqueness will come when I REALLY try to build mood and setting around the system. Thanks for the reply's both oof you, I'm glad someone is willing to keep me on my toes. As for Fuzion and Fudge I'll get to that bump in the road sometime later. Besides, I prefer GURPS. ;)

[Andrew Martin]

Desperado wrote:
> Games are to personal taste Andrew.

I agree. Yet there are definite reasons to choose one game system over another, otherwise bother changing?

> Core mechanics with out a setting must be vague.

On the contrary, mechanics are precise and repeatable (even if written vaguely). Mechanics generate a setting by themselves. This is why mechanics must fit your setting, otherwise you'll have a disfunctional game.

[Desperado]

Precise and Repeatable in the pure mathematical sense. Vague in the sense of personal taste to setting and mood.

<i>I don't want a set of core mechanics to cast spells with intricate component development, energy pools and specified spell design in the skill. I want a blazing fast stream of fireballs, I want to lift my hands in a single swoop and let the earth before me errupt in jagged rocks. I don't want to chant about a person, I want to make a quick flick of the wrist, sputter a quick phraze and have their bones sewn back together right before my eyes.</i>

Core mechanics need to be the primary success system, which is vague. Particular games, that's a different story. Particular games need not only to be congruent with reaching success, but each aspect must have their on unique way of dealing with this same system. Diversify the flesh for their own jobs, but make sure each bone connects.

[Misguided]

Originally posted by Desperado
I. Some characters won't be able to acomplish certain tasks while others will.

Well isn't that like any other game?

Choosing difficulty numbers for tasks may become very difficult. The same task should have the same difficulty for everyone, right (modified for skill etc) Well, what I am trying to get at is that you may have a situation where to make something a remote challenge for some of your players, they become literally impossible for others....not simply hard, but not possible. That's what I was trying to point out. Of course there are ways to get around this, it isn't a termianl problem, I just wanted you to see it and consider whether or not you thought it should eb dealt with in some way.

And to Andrew, I would also claim that a setting can generate mechanics, but Deperado seems to be talking about a more universal mechanic that could be tweaked to fit a particular setting.

[Desperado]

Hmmm . . I think I get this. So you're saying that target numbers should be the same for a situation no matter the character attempting it, right? I totally agree on that point. indevidual target numbers makes tasks the antithesis of universal. The game simply couldn't function. I wonder, now, what part of my original post misled you in to beleiving that was my original intention? I'll fix it promptly.

That plus I've written an improved and somewhat expanded amount of information based on these core mechanics. Granted they're written for reading by my friends ( so some personal taste that we all agree on has bled in) but feel free to take a gander, hehe.

It's in Word97 format, uses two columns, has size 10 Times New Roman font, and it's ZIPed. I shall attach the bugger promptly.

[Andrew Martin]

I copied out the text from Desperado's attachment to make it easier to comment on for those without Word 97 or a suitable viewer. I added "code" around the table text, added some tabs to help space out table columns and surrounded the text with "quote".


The Cyclone Engine

I. Core Mechanics

The core of the system is a three-level step of eight-sided dice. These dice are applied to the attributes of a character giving the attributes themselves a range of one to three dice in ability and development.

Level Dice Rolling Range
1 1d8 1 to 8
2 2d8 2 to 16
3 3d8 3 to 24


Default and Basic roll:
The default roll is using the attribute dice by themselves. The basic roll is the attribute dice plus the skill number. The roll is cumulative. All numbers are added up and must meet or exceed the selected target number.


Agility + Jumping = Success/Failure
2d8 + 3 = 10
4 + 3 + 3 = 10


Target Number Range
Average tasks are: 1 to 8
Advanced tasks are: 9 to 16
Complex tasks are: 17 to 24


Face-off rule:
In order to resolve combat and other face-off situations the same Attribute + Skill roll is made by each contestant. The highest roll wins.

Agility + Pistols Vs. Agility + Dodging
2d8 + 5 Vs. 1d8 + 4
2 + 1 + 5 Vs. 7 + 4
8 Vs. 11

In this scenario the bullet being fired is dodged.


High Roll Rule:
If the target number exceeds the possible maximum roll, a roll of all eight’s will create an automatic success.



II. Application to Gameplay

A. Developing the Core Mechanics
Development of rules must be done in certain key areas in order to complete a game.

Combat and Health
Creators must assign characters some sort of health range and must apply damage to weapons and effects.
Because the combat roll is taken care of in the face-off rules no additional rules are needed. Simple modifiers for spells, wounds, and immobility can be applied to the roll itself. These modifiers will be able to reflect the nature of the game itself. A harsh negative modifier to dodge bullets for gritty gameplay is one example.

Magic and Powers
Magic and Powers are the second concept to be covered. The use of magic or special powers can use either the face-off or basic roll mechanics for resolution. Face-off can be used for casting or using powers against a person and basic rolls for Independent effects. If you want to add depth to magic in gameplay you can simply substitute the skill with a spell level.
Or perhaps list spell-type effects (Fire, Water, Light, etc.) under the skill itself and spread the skill number between them. This would mean that someone with an Elementalist skill could be better in controlling fire and earth spells as opposed to using water spells depending on how they distributed their skill points into each of the skills categories.

B. Character Development
Character creation and development is probably the most intricate part of any game. For creating characters I suggest an open ended point distribution system for Attributes and skills.
Say a game you’re developing has four attributes. These can be Strength, Agility, Intellect, and Charisma. Now each of these Attributes must have a level of 1 to 3. We suggest 4 points should be used to distribute the dice levels into the Attributes. The chart below tells you how much each level costs.


Level Cost
1 .5
2 1
3 1.5


Skills are the next step in character creation. A simple point range for distribution can usually take care of the problem. Linking Attributes is a needed element, and can be done.
If the creator wanted to restrict skill level by Attribute level one possible solution is setting a limit for the skill based on the level of the Attribute itself. For example, if you wanted a Swordsmanship skill you would link to your Strength Attribute. If you only have one level of strength then your limit for Swordsmanship could be three points.


Experience
The mechanics I’ve discussed work best raising individual aspects of a character rather than jumping in levels. A few simple guidelines should be able to help you out.

1. Raising attribute levels should cost a lot of time, effort, and points. We’re talking adding a maximum of 8 new points to the roll.

2. Development between skills and Attributes should always balance out. Make sure that skills can develop only after an attribute has reached a certain capacity for their linked skills to develop. You’ll have characters keeping that single die in Strength and making their Unarmed Combat 10 to get quick power. This is something that will most definitely disrupt gameplay.

3. Last but not least always take into account the theme and mood you want in your game. Look at the modifiers you applied for combat and skill use. For Gritty realistic games character development should be slow and up-hill. For more heroic games characters should find points easier and cheaper to spend.

[Andrew Martin]

Desperado wrote:
> I want a blazing fast stream of fireballs, I want to lift my hands in a single swoop and let the earth before me errupt in jagged rocks. I don't want to chant about a person, I want to make a quick flick of the wrist, sputter a quick phraze and have their bones sewn back together right before my eyes.

Perhaps you should rethink your game's mechanics? Currently your game mechanics do not support this setting, IMHO.

[Misguided]

Originally posted by Desperado
Hmmm . . I think I get this. So you're saying that target numbers should be the same for a situation no matter the character attempting it, right? I totally agree on that point. indevidual target numbers makes tasks the antithesis of universal. The game simply couldn't function. I wonder, now, what part of my original post misled you in to beleiving that was my original intention? I'll fix it promptly.

That plus I've written an improved and somewhat expanded amount of information based on these core mechanics. Granted they're written for reading by my friends ( so some personal taste that we all agree on has bled in) but feel free to take a gander, hehe.

It's in Word97 format, uses two columns, has size 10 Times New Roman font, and it's ZIPed. I shall attach the bugger promptly.

No, I assumed universal target numbers, which is what leads to the situation I'm trying to point out. Think of a situation where a character with three dice has to fight somebody. What is the target number you would choose for an opponent you don't want to be a cakewalk? Now how would this be for a character w/ 2 dice? 1 die? If you are pleased with the answers, then fine.

Will all characters be combat oriented? I had assumed not. How tough will yu have to make opponents so the combat guys don't slice through them like butter? Now what happens if the other characters have to bear the brunt of the thing for some reason?

All I'm saying is think about different scenarios that might occur and see if the system works to your satisfaction. Good luck.

[Desperado]

I think they do.

Late's make some simple ground rules for this setting. Okay, magic is inherent. This means that spells aren't required. All you need to know is the basic skill of conjuring and molding magic to your whim in order to create magical effects. This skill we'll call Sorcery. The linked attribute we'll call Willpower, for obvious reasons. We'll also say that because of this magical nature destructive powers are simpler to create than creative ones because they don't have to be as refined or detailed, they're chaotic in this sense. We'll say that characters always have a base Health level of 8.

So we come to combat. A magic user casts an arc of fire at a guard, he wants it to deal 4 points of damage. The GM notes that the caster is only a meter from the guard, so casting the magic out wont be that hard. But the damage is high, nearly half the normal count, so mustering such energy could be taxing. The GM decides the Caster needs to roll a 12 to reach his 4 point damage goal, he'll lesson damage accordingly.

The GM rolls the caster's Willpower + Sorcery vs. the Guards Wilpower.

Caster: 2d8(7 + 3) + 5 = 15
Guard: 3d8(4 + 5 + 2) = 11

Not only does the Caster reach his four point potential, but the guard is unable to resist the magic entering his body so BAM! You get one crispy guard. The GM notes the Guards plate armor so impact damage due to careening towards the ground is reduced, unfortenetly the arc of fire grafted his flesh to his breast plate, not a happy sight.

It's like what I had said before; The flesh has it's own job to do, but the bones still need to connect. Well my core rules have no flesh, they are these bones that help the flesh, with different indevidual tasks, connect.

Now we've acomplished a whiz-bang form of casting. The slow methodical form of spellcasting could be as follows.

Sorcery is a delicate and precise skill. In order to create a given effect one must learn how to pool energy into a given form. These forms are spells. Each Sorcerer has a Spellbook consisting of the performances, movements and verbal connections that are needed to create the given effect.

Now we're able to take the Sorcery skill and let characters practic certain spells. So we'll say if someone decides to purchase the Sorcery skill at Character creation, they multiply the Sorcery level by 5 and distribute these points into spells. Now instead of throwing out an arc of fire, you're going to need that spell in your list and it would be cast Willpower + Spell. The Spell measuring the casters apptitude with it. Now you have a slower more complex magical design. Both of which have their positive and negative points in gameplay.

[Desperado]

AAaaaaaaaaaaah! I got it now! Thank you muchly.

[Andrew Martin]

Desperado wrote:
> A magic user casts an arc of fire at a guard, he wants it to deal 4 points of damage.
> We'll say that characters always have a base Health level of 8.
> You get one crispy guard.

On the contary, the guard's only lost 1/2 his hitpoints. So he's still alive and can easily hack down the magic user, as there is no penalty for only having 1/2 hit points and he's only 1 meter away.

Also, what skill does the guard resist with? Would it make a difference if he had only 1 or 2 dice for willpower? And what if the guard was a PC? Also, what if the guard shot the mage with a crossbow or rifle, what would the damage be? Also, what if a PC states that their character is tougher than normal, and should have 12 hitpoints/healh? What if a player wants to create a sickly mage, like Raistlin in the Dragonlance books? What if the magic user wants to slay the guard with one spell from beyond arrow range (say 200meters)? Is it possible? Currently it doesn't seem possible with the average guard willpower of 3D8.

[Desperado]

Andrew Wrote:

<b>"On the contary, the guard's only lost 1/2 his hitpoints. So he's still alive and can easily hack down the magic user, as there is no penalty for only having 1/2 hit points and he's only 1 meter away."</b>

This is a simple case of "Is the glass half empty, or half full". As you see it half of the guards Health is still intact, therefor he's more than fit to act. As I see it the guard was just hit with a large stream of concentraited fire and energy. This blast took out half of his health which in my book means it had to cause some sort of severe trauma. This is merely a difference in GMing preference.

<b>"Also, what skill does the guard resist with?"</b>

Well if the guard had a Sorcery skill he might be able to use this as a defensive mechanizm because Sorcery is such a loose skill. You could also create a Magic Resistance skill for people who don't particularly want to cast spells, but feel the need for some small protection.

<b>"Would it make a difference if he had only 1 or 2 dice for willpower?"</b>

I believe it would, the difference in 1 to 8 more points. I'm not sure what else you want. The dice range is a show of development on three levels. The dice are used as resolution when acomplishing a skill, and the skill adds to the roll to compare skill level amongst characters. OR else you'd have the Caster with Sorcery; The guard with no skill to resist, yet they'd still be rolling, say, 2d8. Which basically defeats the purpose of a skill in resolution in this scenario; having a better roll, or more skill, in order to beat your opponent.

Well I need to run but I'll be sure to continue answering all of your questions. Aloha everyone.

[Patrick Chipman]

This is a simple case of "Is the glass half empty, or half full". As you see it half of the guards Health is still intact, therefor he's more than fit to act. As I see it the guard was just hit with a large stream of concentraited fire and energy. This blast took out half of his health which in my book means it had to cause some sort of severe trauma. This is merely a difference in GMing preference.

I have to agree with Andrew on this one. Without a concrete system to reflect wound effects, this system reduces them to GM fiat, which is highly irregular, prone to error, and easy for players to whine about. That's one of the reasons why most modern games have wound penalty systems. ;)

[Misguided]

Originally posted by Desperado
AAaaaaaaaaaaah! I got it now! Thank you muchly.

Good! Now you can create a way to circumvent it. This is the kind of thing that should become obvious prety quickly when you go from an abstract idea on paper to trying to reproduce actual game situations.

Good luck!