[RPG]: Immortals, reviewed by John Smith (3/2)

[RPGnet Reviews]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14301.phtml

John Smith's Summary:

Some good ideas but suffers from high price and cheap marketing tricks.

Go to the full review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14301.phtml) for more information.

[C.W.Richeson]

Thanks for the review, John!

Have you considered that the information on the "blood bathers" may be included to provide the reader with information on serial killers so they can include one in a chronicle as an antagonist (or, hell, protagonist)? I'm sure any RPG company would love to produce something so sensationalistic that the news picked it up, but I have trouble believing this is the goal when the presentation mirrors past books in terms of what it's trying to do - bring some real world knowledge to the WoD reader.

[Wood]

The first chapter is a marketing stunt? That's a hell of an accusation to make, and one that the writer of the chapter -- Matt McFarland, who really is above such things, and would not even think of doing it -- would take serious issue with.

[DeusIrae]

Indeed, that's a very flimsy charge. The concept of gaining immortality by bathing in blood is a classic horror trope, and completely reasonable fodder for an nWoD supplement. If you were to update it to the modern day and build a campaign or scenario around it, as a GM one of the first things you'd want to know is how the bad-guy NPC avoids getting caught by the cops.

I haven't actually seen the content, but regardless of its detail (which I have a hard time believing stands out as creepy in its depth given the nigh-fetishistic treatment of forensics in CSI and similarly ubiquitous police procedurals) it's very hard to make out a case that there's any intent to promote criminality here.

[Destriarch]

First off let me say that I'm not trying to give any credence to the idea that chapter 1 is a publicity stunt.

That said, I can understand why some people would take offence to the idea. Quite simply put, it's not necessary to know the precise details of how to dispose of a body in order to have one's character do it in an RPG, and including those instructions could be construed (especially by paranoid pressure groups) as an attempt to provide criminal information under the guise of a non-criminal book. Given that role-playing does occasionally get blamed for the acts of serial killers, rightly or wrongly being unimportant, it could be construed as a taboo move to actually be seen to offer a 'how to' guide on serial killing that could potentially be of real world use.

Whether it's an attempt to garner media attention is debateable. What's without question is that its inclusion is intended to shock and disturb. This is a horror game and it's easy to forget that when you're playing the horrors in question yourself. I've not read the book so I personally cannot judge whether this is an artistically valid attempt to represent the genre or simple shock tactics - the literary equivalent of when the heroine in a horror movie gets jumped on by a startled cat just to make the audience jump. It could go either way so I don't intend to judge. Suffice to say that frank and matter-of-fact discussion of morally questionable acts is one way of building a horror atmosphere.

Personally, I look forward to when White Wolf releases a sourcebook about nuclear weapons. It's bound to have a section about how to build your own ;)

-Ash

[Coglio]

Thanks for the review, though I agree with the others that I think you are overplaying the bit on the sensationalism. However, that's your call.

The information about the Purified is interesting. I was wondering if nWoD would bring Mummies back, and here they are. I got interested in this book when I heard about it, though some of your criticisms about other aspects of the book (namely, price-for-page and some aspects of the other immortals) are turning me off.

In my opinion, White Wolf makes some of the best games I never play, and this book sounds like an interesting read if nothing else.

[sbca1995]

To be fair, if your character is going to be bathing in blood with any regularity, they'll need to consider the logistics of massive body disposal.

I always imagined that blood bathers would slowly become desensitized to the blood, so that the youth-prolongation effects obtained from the blood would deplete faster and faster to the point where they're shucking people at 10x the rate they were when they started. And at that point, body disposal becomes less and less creative. And as hysteria brought on by heightened addiction takes hold, they become less and less careful.

[BlackHat_Matt]

I wrote the chapter on blood bathers. Let me disabuse the reviewer of a few notions:

1) "White Wolf" wasn't trying to get any publicity for anything. I wrote the chapter, John Snead developed it (meaning he gave me the initial outline and some editorial fixes). I don't say that to convey the message the WW has no say over what they publish, which would be silly, but just to say that it's not like the outline said "Make sure you grab some headlines, Matt!"

2) I didn't have any courses in forensics. I do, however, watch an awful lot of movies and <I>Law & Order</i>. I've read John Douglas' books. Ooh! And I got online and asked for folks' suggestions (on my blog) for creative ways to dispose of bodies. I don't vouch for the accuracy of anything I put in the chapter since I'm not, y'know, <I>a fucking murderer</i>.

3) "Check local laws?" Are you serious? Ignoring any question of whether you personally find the material offensive (which you're welcome to do, obviously), the chapter doesn't endorse murder. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said, more than once, that blood bathers are reprehensible people, serial killers, monsters, etc. That you had trouble with the material just means that John Snead hired the right guy (he said he wanted me to creep him out). But you're right. If the local authorities ignore context and content, as you have, then they might misunderstand.

Do me a favor: Don't put words in my mouth. If you don't like it, fine. If you find it offensive, fine. But your language in the review (lots of passive voice, "The only conclusion that can be drawn..." sorts of statements) indicate to me that you're trying to say that everyone would find the same faults that you do. That's bad reviewing. Stop moralizing, say what you mean, and don't worry so much about what other people might or might not get.

[fnord3125]

I haven't read the book, or even the first chapter, but the "check local laws" bit made me do a double-take. I find it really hard to believe that in an age when we have shows like CSI and Dexter (and the novels on which the latter is based) that there is anything in a White Wolf book that couldn't be seen/read/learned from network TV or any number of novels in the Mystery/Thriller section of my local Borders.

[Brand_Robins]

I find it really hard to believe that in an age when we have shows like CSI and Dexter (and the novels on which the latter is based) that there is anything in a White Wolf book that couldn't be seen/read/learned from network TV or any number of novels in the Mystery/Thriller section of my local Borders.

Dude, didn't you hear that every writer on Dexter was arrested last week?

I did. Not from a newspaper or anything, but from some dude on the bus. I'm sure he knew what he was talking about. I'll be sure to get his phone number next time I talk to him, that way I'll even have a source that I can cite. And a cited source means it must be true!

Also, I think it is very important that we all register our opinions on the price and color/black and white content of RPGs. Especially in this time of economic crisis, it is increasingly important that everyone state their opinions, no matter how much or little they actually know about economics or publishing, as facts. Doing so will help us understand the way publishing is going much more clearly, and will not just result in many people saying random things about pricing.

[Nilus]

I did. Not from a newspaper or anything, but from some dude on the bus.

Did that man happen to have a tinfoil hat on his head, smell of urine and also claim he was from Uranus. :)

As far as the comment on the price of the book and what you get. Its a valid argument. 35 bucks for a 144 page B&W book is a little high imo.

[C.W.Richeson]

Also, I think it is very important that we all register our opinions on the price and color/black and white content of RPGs. Especially in this time of economic crisis, it is increasingly important that everyone state their opinions, no matter how much or little they actually know about economics or publishing, as facts. Doing so will help us understand the way publishing is going much more clearly, and will not just result in many people saying random things about pricing.

I disagree. Clearly, all consumers are equally wealthy and have no interest in the physical quality or amount of content included in an RPG. I do agree that only a person with a strong understanding of economics can note that a cost/content ratio seems high, though. We should leave such cutting edge analysis to the professionals.

[JNewman]

I love it when people present their flawed assumptions as fact. No wait, not love. It's that other word.

Did RPG.net even look at that review before posting it? A little oversight seems appropriate.

[Brand_Robins]

Clearly, all consumers are equally wealthy and have no interest in the physical quality or amount of content included in an RPG.

We do not, in fact, disagree!

Isn't it nice that everyone has the same standards of quality, content, and value? Not because we're all equally wealthy, but because all gamers are equally poor. After all, if we had money we'd surely be off screwing super models and taking tours of Europe.

I do agree that only a person with a strong understanding of economics can note that a cost/content ratio seems high, though. We should leave such cutting edge analysis to the professionals.

Indeed. The internet is NOT the place for opinions.

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It's a huge leap to go from "I can see why it would be offensive" (because people seemingly forget that this is supposed to be a line of horror games, not latex-clad super-anti-heroes) to "the first chapter of this book is devoted to cheap shock tricks trying to get the media to report on the book as a “criminal RPG”.

The legend of Elizabeth Bathory and the DC Comics character Brother Blood (and, to a lesser extent, Ras Al Ghul) are extremely valid WoD characters, but the big problem with them -- and, indeed, with Vampire over the years -- is that niggling little matter that people will notice even homeless people missing in large numbers.

One man's "cheap shock trick" is another man's (mine) nod to realism and playability.

And anyone who's actually a serial killer, even in the budding stage, has spent enough time obsessing about it, and reading up on it online, and watching movies and documentaries, etc., to know any of the tricks discussed in a White Wolf game.

Frankly, I would have included such a chapter in the VtR supplement The Blood. (I don't own the book, so maybe it's in there.) Not every human a vampire feeds on can be willing, unless you totally jettison realism in a game.

[Brand_Robins]

latex-clad super-anti-heroes

I think that must be the idea for the next WoD book. WoD: Sexier than the Matrix!

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think that must be the idea for the next WoD book. WoD: Sexier than the Matrix!
And almost certainly less dopey than the two sequels! :p

[BlackHat_Matt]

Frankly, I would have included such a chapter in the VtR supplement The Blood. (I don't own the book, so maybe it's in there.) Not every human a vampire feeds on can be willing, unless you totally jettison realism in a game.

It's true, but even a vampire that feeds on unwilling victims doesn't have to kill. Blood bathers, though, do (well, no, you <I>can</I> structure the ritual so you don't have to, but it's rare), so I thought some attention to how it was possible to get away with that was in order.

Evidently, that makes me a budding serial killer.

[C.W.Richeson]

Evidently, that makes me a budding serial killer.

At least you're not a wilting serial killer! ;)

[sbca1995]

Evidently, that makes me a budding serial killer.Well, that and your penchant for harming small animals and driving around in a service van. :p

<img src=http://the-grayline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/free-candy-van.jpg width=300> (http://the-grayline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/free-candy-van.jpg)

[BlackHat_Matt]

Well, that and your penchant for harming small animals and driving around in a service van. :p



Dude, I got rid of that van years ago. You never really realize it at the time, but blood is a) hell to wash off and b) a real bitch on your brake lines.

[Emprint]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14301.phtml

John Smith's Summary:

Some good ideas but suffers from high price and cheap marketing tricks.

Go to the full review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14301.phtml) for more information.

Point of order... have you seen Slasher?

[sbca1995]

Dude, I got rid of that van years ago. You never really realize it at the time, but blood is a) hell to wash off and b) a real bitch on your brake lines.I have it on good authority (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp) that Coka-Cola will get that shit right out.

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Point of order... have you seen Slasher?
Ah HA! More intentionally provocative works!

[Destriarch]

Blood Bathers: are you doing YOUR bit to help protect the environment? Try taking blood showers instead of full baths to save time and money. In this week's issue of Reprehensible Murderers Monthly, we show you three labour-saving tips pioneered by the Countess Erzebet Bathory herself!

*Pulleys and Icepicks: how a simple pulley system and a few carefully placed thrusts with the pointed implement of your choice can produce a simple yet effective blood-saving shower.
*Knot Tying: for that luxurious, relaxing effect, we show you how to restrict blood flow before the cut in order to produce a superior fine mist spray, or even a power shower!
*Plumbing Tips: let's face it, blood gums up your pipes. Reviewed this week are the top three drain clearers guaranteed to remove a clot in the drain.

Plus, much, much more! Remember, just because you're an amoral psychopath doesn't mean you don't care.

-Ash

[BlackHat_Matt]

Further nuttiness. I just noticed the little tag on how the hypothetical masses of gamers would rather have rules on ghoul blood bathers than the chapter as presented.

Really? You'd rather have <B>Vampire</b> material in a WoD book? OK. I'm willing to entertain that notion, I suppose.

A ghoul blood bather...hmm. Is that a ghoul that's still under the Vinculum and getting regular infusions of vampire blood? 'Cause, see, that's just...a ghoul. That's kind of how they work. They drink Kindred blood, and then they don't age anymore. I didn't put that in there because a) it's <b>Requiem</b> stuff and b) there's a whole book about them anyway.

Is it an ex-ghoul that's now become a blood bather? OK, cool. What you have there is an interesting backstory for a blood bather. Construct the Bathing Ritual as you like (probably involving Supernatural Blood, don'tchathink?), and go to town.

There, I've given the people what they want. AM I NOT GENEROUS?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There, I've given the people what they want. AM I NOT GENEROUS?
You clearly need a nice relaxing bath.

OF BLOOD.

[memorax300]

I just wish that gamers would realize that the hobby does not exist in some osrt of vacum. That prices of things go up. Your not going to find a hard cover for 20-25$ anymore. Forget it. Not anymore. Maybe 10-15$ certainly not now. Once he started complaing about the price of the book it was hard to take his review seriously. Why do gamers insist on getting tommorows gaming now at yesterdays prices.

[Blue Seraph]

I just wish that gamers would realize that the hobby does not exist in some osrt of vacum. That prices of things go up. Your not going to find a hard cover for 20-25$ anymore. Forget it. Not anymore. Maybe 10-15$ certainly not now. Once he started complaing about the price of the book it was hard to take his review seriously. Why do gamers insist on getting tommorows gaming now at yesterdays prices.
Frankly, I thought that was the one part of the review that made sense. Compare it to the WOD core books, which are in color:

Book / page count / list price

Immortals / 144 / $35
Vampire / 294 / $35
Mage /400 / $35
Hunter / 320 / $35
Promethean / 288 / $35
Werewolf / 317 / $35
Changeling / 320 / $35

Now look at some of the secondary books:

Second Sight / 160 / $27
Asylum / 160 / $27
Dogs of War / 125 / $25

I'd consider Immortals for $25. For $35? No way. I'm not seeing the complaint as "gamers demanding yesterdays prices" so much as "this is an overpriced book compared to WW's other offerings."

[capnzapp]

Why do gamers insist on getting tommorows gaming now at yesterdays prices.
Because being vocal against price hikes does help to keep prices lower?

[C.W.Richeson]

I just wish that gamers would realize that the hobby does not exist in some osrt of vacum. That prices of things go up. Your not going to find a hard cover for 20-25$ anymore. Forget it. Not anymore. Maybe 10-15$ certainly not now. Once he started complaing about the price of the book it was hard to take his review seriously. Why do gamers insist on getting tommorows gaming now at yesterdays prices.

It's a perfectly reasonable criticism. There's a difference between saying "This book is expensive compared to what's on the market today" and "This book is expensive compared to books 10 years ago." John's comment struck me as being grounded in the former, not the latter.

This may seem shocking, but good reviews take a broad audience into consideration. A sentence or two on the price/content is not a bad thing. It is, in fact, something that is useful to many readers. While John made a mistake in his assumptions with regard to Chapter One, and has unsurprisingly gotten dogpiled over it, his attention to such consumer considerations as price/content is a good idea.

[Destriarch]

Compare it to the WOD core books, which are in color:
To be absolutely fair and accurate on this front, there are two factors that ought to be taken into consideration.

Firstly, if I'm any judge, the core books aren't full colour. They're two-colour process, with the text in black and the illustrations printed in a secondary colour of ink that varies depending on the line. It's a great method to use if you can afford litho print runs because it's generally about half the price of a full colour print run and you're less likely to get alignment problems. Nevertheless it is bound to be pricier than black and white.

Secondly, and more importantly, core books almost always sell better than source books and other support material. As a result these frequently have to be given a higher mark-up in order to make a reasonable profit.

So, is $35 too much for this product? Not if you find the contents useful, but because of the economics involved it's less likely to be of interest just for the sake of reading material.

-Ash

[memorax300]

Because being vocal against price hikes does help to keep prices lower?

I keep telling myself that anyday know I'm going to wake up and surrpnded by large piles of money and women. It does not matter how vocal gamers are about prices. The gaming companies see who is the most popular rpg company at the moment and adjust their prices accordingly. IF 4ED PHB as an example would be 40$ then everyone else will charhe about 30-35$. The logic being that if gamers are willing to spend that much on the 4E PHB they will do the same for their rpg product.

No rpg company is going to take a loss in profit for the gaming community. None. I guess I'm getting tired of gamers not realizing that the hobby is an expensive one. And because of that their seems to be some sort of entitlement involved. Poor gamer must equal low prices. Life just does not work like that. I probably would have chisen another hobby if I knew how much money I would have spent on gaming.

The only gaming company that has really good prices on their products is Palladium. At the expesne of looking like something made in the eary 80s inside and out.

[fnord3125]

I was surprised by the price as well. It's a very significant price increase, and if this price is the new standard for nWoD books of that length, well... I'm certainly not going to stop buying them, but I'm going to have to be a lot more choosy, that's for damn sure. They're already not exactly a whim buy for me. Frankly, I wish White Wolf hadn't gone with the All Hardcover All the Time (with, i suppose, the exception of the vampire clanbooks for some reason) route for nWoD. Yeah, they look nice and are more durable, but they've gotta add like 10 bucks to the cover price, plus they're heavier and bulkier, which is a huge pain when you're a GM who doesn't host the game. But whatever. It's not like they're gonna change it now. or, rather, i'm sure they would already have changed if they didn't think it was working for them, monetarily.

[Nilus]

The only gaming company that has really good prices on their products is Palladium. At the expesne of looking like something made in the eary 80s inside and out.

Don't insult the 80s like that.