[RPG]: Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies, reviewed by C.W.Richeson (5/5)

[RPGnet Reviews]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14305.phtml

Christopher W. Richeson's Summary:

Skyships. Pirates. Musketeers. Fencing. Intrigue. Mysticism. Adventure! The back cover promises all of these things and <I>S7S</I> delivers at every turn. Read on about this fun, high action game driven by the PDQ system.

Go to the full review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14305.phtml) for more information.

[Yo! Master]

Well timed, as i was about to ask for opinions on the game in TRO. :)

[C.W.Richeson]

Correction: Instances of the word "Trait" should be "Technique." S7S has Techniques! ;)

Well timed, as i was about to ask for opinions on the game in TRO. :)

Glad to hear it, Yo!

[chadu]

Thank you for this fantastic review, Christopher!

(I love the description of your game, with the crashing of the Barathi wedding!!!)

[sbca1995]

Good timing! I just heard a glowing review at 2d6 Feet in a Random Direction podcast (http://www.jadelantern.com/2d6feet/?p=64) and have been meaning to look this one up. Sounds like fun!!!

[snej]

FYI, those wishing to get a preview of the game can download a free PDF of the PDQ# core rules (http://www.atomicsockmonkey.com/freebies/PDQ.pdf) from Chad's AtomicSockMonkey website.

The rules look comprehensive enough to be used on their own to develop your own games (they're basically an expanded version of the existing PDQ core rules), though there is some swashbuckling-specific content. On the other hand, it's hard to think of an RPG setting that couldn't be improved with the addition of a bit of swashbuckling...

[The Black Hack]

Thank you for the great review. There's something about floating islands and flying ships, that I just can't resist...

Also I think I really like your group's characters :)

[ACÓNITO]

Hello!

Just wondering if the game could be described as a mix of Sundered Skies (Triple Ace Games) & Fifty Fathoms (Pinnacle), Pirates of the Spanish Main or 7th Sea.
Or maybe not.

Thanks for your thoughts!


Ä

[C.W.Richeson]

Thank you for the great review. There's something about floating islands and flying ships, that I just can't resist...

Also I think I really like your group's characters :)

Thanks, Black Hack!

Hello!

Just wondering if the game could be described as a mix of Sundered Skies (Triple Ace Games) & Fifty Fathoms (Pinnacle), Pirates of the Spanish Main or 7th Sea.
Or maybe not.

I've only read Fifty Fathoms and 7th Sea, but from those I would say S7S stands apart with its own unique feel. Flying through the sky, encountering all sorts of bizarre and interesting creatures, you can't help but embrace the magical aspect of the setting.

That said, if you dig those titles I'm confident you'll enjoy this game.

[ACÓNITO]

That said, if you dig those titles I'm confident you'll enjoy this game.

I guess I'll skip this one since I already have most of the others. Don't wanna repeat.


Thanks
Ä

[Dave Blewer]

I will have to check this out, I think :D

[Riggswolfe]

Because of this review I ordered a copy off of Amazon. It sounds quite intriquing.

[Chinthliss]

I snapped Swasbucklers up at the weekend. It is simply great.
I love the setting, and the PDQ system is simple with a depth that really helps in telling stories and including those elements that are most important to players and their character.

I can now run something akin to Skies of Arcadia, Blue Rogues here we come!

BTW- Great review!

[iago]

Because of this review I ordered a copy off of Amazon. It sounds quite intriquing.

Wow, it's selling through Amazon? Man, distribution channels are weird.

[Gavken]

My copy arrived today and I've only skim read bits but I cannot see how the reviewer can give this product 5/5, particularly with having no Index, mediocre art and (in my opinion- a poor layout).

Let me post some of my issues with the game as it stands.

* The art is mediocre at best and in places is often inappropriate for the setting. Many bits seem to have been culled from open source and some of the pencil drawings are just poor quality.
* Whilst the descriptions of the various flora and fauna are quite good, they lack in many details. In a world quite so different there are loads of things I'd like to know about these things. How big are they? What do they eat? Are they a danger to people? Good art pictures of the creatures in the setting would really have helped here.
* The history of the various cultures is laughable. Most of them are half a page long and do not contain any detail on relative dates. So we are having to make these details up ourselves. the history of Sha-Ka is just 4 lines long!
* We are not really told what a day is or how it is measured. There is no reference to the currencies used to trade (which is supposedly a big part of the system) and no idea what things cost. I object to paying £20 for a setting where I have to make up half of the stuff myself.
* We have about 4 pages at the back of the book that are adverts for Evil Hat production stuff. Presumably this is where the index would have gone. Contrary to what the reviewer says this is actually needed in the book as the contents are not comprehensive.
* Muskets and how to handle ranged weapons are not really given in the rules and some suggestions how to handle them are posted on P263. There is no concept of range and reloading these things in the rules.

These are just things I've found out on a skim read. So in conclusion I really would disagree on the 5/5 rating given by the reviewer. I would give it 4 for style and 3 for substance.

By the way I also have Spirit of the Centuary by Evil hat which I think is excellent.

[C.W.Richeson]

My copy arrived today and I've only skim read bits but I cannot see how the reviewer can give this product 5/5, particularly with having no Index, mediocre art

You haven't read the game and your first issue are two flaws I address at the beginning of the review? Did you read my review?



Let me post some of my issues with the game as it stands.

Here's the thing about games. Everyone will find things about games they like and dislike - we each have preferences. A game can be an excellent game and totally be a game that a given person doesn't like. Often my scores have little to do with my personal interest in playing a given game. As something to consider, perhaps the game can be a great game to play despite some of the things you dislike.


* The art is mediocre at best and in places is often inappropriate for the setting. Many bits seem to have been culled from open source and some of the pencil drawings are just poor quality.

I agree. As an art book it sucks, with only occasional illustrations that are really useful to the reader. Compared side by side with a glossy full color RPG <I>S7S</I> gets its butt kicked. Those somewhat accustomed to small press games, though, shouldn't be overly surprised that art was not a primary concern for the author.

Of course, when I was playing <I>S7S</I> my players had a really kick ass time despite the artwork in the book they didn't look at. I consider artwork's primary task to inspire, and I was certainly inspired from the quotes and ideas presented already.


* Whilst the descriptions of the various flora and fauna are quite good, they lack in many details. In a world quite so different there are loads of things I'd like to know about these things. How big are they? What do they eat? Are they a danger to people? Good art pictures of the creatures in the setting would really have helped here.

I agree that another 300 page setting guide for the 7 Skies would rock. I'm aware of very few RPGs that contain a detailed bestiary or guide to flora and fauna in the main release, and none of them spend as much time working towards making play excellent as <I>S7S</I> does. Yes, we do not know how large some of the plants are but somehow a few quick imaginative description words from a player still does the trick.



* The history of the various cultures is laughable. Most of them are half a page long and do not contain any detail on relative dates. So we are having to make these details up ourselves. the history of Sha-Ka is just 4 lines long!

That's true, the cultures do not have several pages of detail on their history complete with lengthy historical timelines and other information that could be included. I suspect the author thought folk would want to swashbuckle in the 7 Skies, and that his job was to inspire them towards this end rather than provide something that may be enjoyable to read but which would not advance game play. Much like the size of the plants, at the table this general guidance results in Qualities being much stronger in the hands of imaginative players who want to craft in those details as they go.


* We are not really told what a year is, a season a day is or how it is measured. There is no reference to the currencies used to trade (which is supposedly a big part of the system) and no idea what things cost. I object to paying £20 for a setting where I have to make up half of the stuff myself.

Except, of course, for all the detail on the seasons presented at the start of the book which is extremely important to play. Did you read <I>S7S</I>? You could totally have taken out the first chapter in the time it took you to write up your grievances.


* We have about 4 pages at the back of the book that are adverts for Evil Hat production stuff. Presumably this is where the index would have gone. Contrary to what the reviewer says this is actually needed in the book as the contents are not comprehensive.

Since you have neither read the book nor played it, I'm comfortable with my own judgment regarding the need for an index rather than a detailed ToC. As for the advertisements, I have few RPGs that don't have ads in the back. WotC, White Wolf, and small press authors all do this.


* Muskets and how to handle ranged weapons are not really given in the rules and some suggestions how to handle them are posted on P263. There is no concept of range and reloading these things in the rules.

I guess I'm dense, but for the life of me I don't understand why this is an issue. The way I see it you have two choices. Either reloading is too slow to reasonably happen in combat and folk carry several pistols, or the camera only moves back to a character after they've reloaded or acquired a new pistol.


These are just things I've found out on a skim read. So in conclusion I really would disagree on the 5/5 rating given by the reviewer. I would give it 4 for style and 3 for substance.

That's cool. I recommend reading the book and then writing up a review of your own so you can share your thoughts! The more perspectives we get the better.

For me, your objections have zero to do with playing the game and would never impact the fun my group is having at the table. I think you're more interested in a book to read than a game to play. That's ok, a lot of RPG fans are, but it may be that we just have a fundamentally different approach since the question that always drives my reviews is "How is this / would this be in play?"

[iago]

Thanks for the dissenting opinion, Gaven! It's definitely a help. I think CWR has touched on everything I would have, though, so alas -- not much to add on my part.

[Gavken]

CW when I wrote the comment this morning I said that I had only skim read the game and the comment on the year is not fully correct as a result. I found that stuff much later, mainly through the lack of a decent index.

My beef with the game as I see it at present is that if I just wanted to do a swashbuckling fun game I could do that in Fate 3.0 or any other number of systems. I already knew that PDQ# system that this is based on is freely available so I could run the game using that if I wanted.

What makes this game special for me is the unique ideas in the setting. This is what I was hoping to get for my money and I guess where I was most dissappointed. I still haven't read it all but for me the history of the cultures involved in the setting is very important to how the people of that country react. If you think about the real world you will know of long standing rivalries and issues that have been caused by historical events. The three lines on the history of one culture is just a joke in my eyes.

There are good RPGs out there that include good bestiaries in a small amount of space - look a RQ2 for a good example showing you what most of the major races are like.

Yet instead we have 6 pages of bibliography in the back of the book followed by 4 pages of adverts. That's a whole 10 pages that could have been devoted to something good detailing the history of the world.

Don't get me started about currency either. There's nothing about it in the individual cultures, nothing in the section on International trade. I eventually found on P178 in a random section entitled Temporary Gear and Temporary Wealth that the Barathi use ducats as a currency. It never says what all the nations use of course or what you can expect to buy with your ducats.

I've also just noticed a couple more completely pointless sections. "How Piracy is done" and "What do you do with the Booty". The answers of course are attack vessels from a position of concealment and divide up the booty. Now anyone who's ever seen a pirate film will know how this works.

Iago - I will try and post a proper review if I get a chance. I am just pointing out the negative things I noticed. There are alot of very good things about the game which once I've fully read it I will try and talk about. The Skyship combat system does look very good.

I think Evil Hat have done very well with Spirit of the Centuary and am planning to use that for my next campaign, but this product I feel needs alot more work. I hope that the Dresden Files comes out much better than this when it eventually comes out.

I cannot see how CW can post a review though that gives this 5/5 when he freely admits there are problems with the product. Merely saying that we had a lot of fun doing swashbuckling I don't believe justifies it. I could equally say about any game tailored to that market such as 7th Sea.

[Gavken]

You haven't read the game and your first issue are two flaws I address at the beginning of the review? Did you read my review?


I admit to not having read the full game, but I have read significant parts of it. Yes I did read all your review, hence why I replied to it. Just because you had a fun time playing it doesn't mean its a perfect product.

Those somewhat accustomed to small press games, though, shouldn't be overly surprised that art was not a primary concern for the author.

I have a number of small press games and none have artwork so inappropriate or poor.

I agree that another 300 page setting guide for the 7 Skies would rock.

See it doesn't need a 300 page guide and nor would I want one. It just needs a few extra details that would really help.

I suspect the author thought folk would want to swashbuckle in the 7 Skies, and that his job was to inspire them towards this end rather than provide something that may be enjoyable to read but which would not advance game play.

Watch the Princess Bride if you want to be inspired to Swahbuckle. It has a reason why there is conflict in it and generally those reasons come from history and ancient antagonisms.

I guess I'm dense, but for the life of me I don't understand why this is an issue. The way I see it you have two choices. Either reloading is too slow to reasonably happen in combat and folk carry several pistols, or the camera only moves back to a character after they've reloaded or acquired a new pistol.


You've never seen a group pick apart a game that has sloppy rules before then. My group are extremely sharp and will pick up on loopholes in a second. Not having good defined rules is a major irritant. If reloading is too slow then why not say it in the book!! What about bows - I would guess that if guns are too slow these would be devasting in combat. Just have a decent bowman up the mast and they would pick apart boarders.

[iago]

Folks curious as to what Chad's thinking was regarding the design of the setting (which I encouraged) can find out much by listening to the latest Master Plan: http://masterplanpodcast.net/index.php?post_id=488152

[C.W.Richeson]

I cannot see how CW can post a review though that gives this 5/5 when he freely admits there are problems with the product. Merely saying that we had a lot of fun doing swashbuckling I don't believe justifies it. I could equally say about any game tailored to that market such as 7th Sea.

I appreciate that you want to hold me to a high standard for review authoring, but my S7S review is no different than my other reviews. I discuss positive and negative aspects of all products I review, whether they're 5/5 or 1/1. Clearly I do more in the review than "just say we had a lot of fun," so please don't react to me as if I performed no discussion nor analysis of the product. Anyone who reads that review should leave it with enough information to decide for themselves whether S7S sounds like a game they want to enjoy.

[C.W.Richeson]

I admit to not having read the full game, but I have read significant parts of it. Yes I did read all your review, hence why I replied to it. Just because you had a fun time playing it doesn't mean its a perfect product.


Gavken, I don't doubt you're a cool person and want to make sure folk have the right view of S7S. Try to look at your response from my perspective for a second, though. You have not even *read* S7S and you're taking me to town for writing a bad review.


See it doesn't need a 300 page guide and nor would I want one. It just needs a few extra details that would really help.

Like what? I bet if you mentioned it to Chad, or in a fan thread, you might find more discussion of each group!


Watch the Princess Bride if you want to be inspired to Swahbuckle. It has a reason why there is conflict in it and generally those reasons come from history and ancient antagonisms.

I agree, and I'm sure Chad does too! The Princess Bride is a great source for everything S7S enables you to do. Perhaps that's why the setting material, while a decent bit for a small press game, isn't as detailed as you like. The author already knows that you know what to do. The message is "Here's a setting framework, now get to work filling your game with personal insults, lost loves, and tales of revenge!"


You've never seen a group pick apart a game that has sloppy rules before then. My group are extremely sharp and will pick up on loopholes in a second. Not having good defined rules is a major irritant. If reloading is too slow then why not say it in the book!! What about bows - I would guess that if guns are too slow these would be devasting in combat. Just have a decent bowman up the mast and they would pick apart boarders.

If your group wants to nitpick reloading, and you are unable to come up with a good solution, then I agree that S7S isn't the game for your crew. By their very nature, rules light games don't have rules for everything. They're there for those of us more interested the big picture than looking up specific rules.

[iago]

If your group wants to nitpick reloading, and you are unable to come up with a good solution, then I agree that S7S isn't the game for your crew. By their very nature, rules light games don't have rules for everything. They're there for those of us more interested the big picture than looking up specific rules.

This is really the crux of it. Gavken, at Evil Hat we only design games we ourselves want to play. The kind of play implied by your objections is the kind of play that would suck the joy right out of our gaming experience -- so Chad definitely hasn't designed a game for that kind of play. If it's not for you, it's not for you. There are a LOT of games out there that deserve your love. Go spend some of your energy on loving *them*! They need it.

[Snarky's Machine]

Someone once described this game as "the game that delivers so much more than it promises." I have to agree with that assessment.