[360] Project Natal

[Qooroo]

So, XBox is getting a PSEye style motion capture/camera thing. I was skeptical when they announced it, but man...the demoes they're showing are really neat.

EDIT: Holy sweet Jesus the Milo demo is cool...

[Ottergame]

Really, the demos made the whole thing look pretty stupid at first. Whee, I can paint!

But yeah, Milo was just jaw dropping awesome. And as the other demos went on, it really started to look good. So, it's not -just- a gimmick for minigames.

[JonAcheson]

The nicest thing I saw in the pictures of the demo was the NXE integration.

This thing will only matter if it gets amazing games for it. Unfortunately, all I saw were demos, and Peter "Overpromise Much?" Molyneux.

One thing that would be very cool, but which I did not see, would be if you could type with this thing, using an on-screen keyboard and the motion capture stuff. I doubt it is able to capture finger movements, but even two-finger typing would be a handy feature that would make wireless keyboards largely superfluous.

[Democritus]

Anyone has a handy link for these demos?

[Fallen Seraph]

Keyboarding would be really cool. Perhaps they could release some sort of glove that would have additional sensors, transmitters or something that would focus Natal on your hands for that moment in time to allow typing.

Combine that with adventure gaming in first person and I be quite excited. I would love to play a adventure game where I can move objects with my hands (examine it up close), duck under desks to hide or check for something under it, type stuff up on a computer (hacking), etc.

I dunno if that is possible, still iffy on how well it will turn out. But the above is what I would like to see if it worked out perfectly.

[JonAcheson]

Keyboarding would be really cool. Perhaps they could release some sort of glove that would have additional sensors, transmitters or something that would focus Natal on your hands for that moment in time to allow typing.

Some kind of "power glove" perhaps.... ;)

Seriously, though, no. It is easier for me to turn on a bluetooth keyboard than it is for me to put on gloves. But it would be easier yet to waggle my fingers in an exaggerated fashion, if it could work.

[Fallen Seraph]

Yeah but it could go beyond just keyboarding. You could use it for shooters and actually pulling a trigger (perhaps doing two handed for extra accuracy/stability), a mecha game where both hands is used to control the mecha/triggers for shooting it, etc. Lots you could do if you got full control of your fingers using Natal.

[YorkusRex]

My future of gaming involves less motion not more. I want controllers that free me from the strenuous physical demands of mashing buttons and pulling triggers.

That said, these will be a cool interface for those of you who are into moving around.:D

[JonAcheson]

Another thing that would be cool, if they could make it work: a real Air Guitar game.

But again, the devil is in the details: being able to pick up fingering and picking, particularly when gyrating like a lunatic.

[Quasar]

I haven't watched the demo yet, but I did really like the ad they made for it. Though I have no hope at all regarding the voice recognition.

For games though, it would seem to be problematic with games that have lots of complicated actions. Such as with the racing game in the add. Sure steering is easy enough...but all the stuff like gear shift, breaks, view changes, etc would seem to make that problematic. Well unless the voice recog worked.

All in all aside from simple games it would seem to be a bit of a pipe dream.

One thing of interest though is that it has the potential to kill the plastic addons market.

[tantriccereal]

what's the point of it?

[Quasar]

what's the point of it?

Its a more natural interface (if it works as advertised) and motion control is the new thing.

Just like multitouch is.

[Fallen Seraph]

Kotaku did a brief hands on with Natal and Milo. http://kotaku.com/5275204/testing-molyneuxs-milo-a-virtual-boy-with-yes-a-dog

What stood out to me was:
The game was using head-tracking technology, I discovered. Leaning my head to the left or right — or backing away or walking closer to the TV — smoothly adjusted the game's camera angle. The tracking was responsive and intuitive.
Plus:
Milo walked up to me and complimented me on my blue shirt (my shirt was indeed blue)
The whole set-up in my mind is screaming for a adventure game with perhaps some ARG ideas. I can do normal adventure gaming in-game. Then do some ARG on a computer, perhaps print out something (could have along with text/images a barcode for the camera to read and translate) and show it to a character in the game.

[tantriccereal]

There are a lot more important things M$ should be considering rather than investing in stupid gimmicks.

[The Red Stranger]

It looks interesting but I am not sure on how many new posibilities the technology will actually bring. I am reserving judgement until I can see this better implemented. My biggest question with the device is how will they be able to incorarate continous movement in a single direction, eventually you will run out of room. I would also like to know ow much this will cost. Right now without decent info this is reminding me of virtual reality which never took off.

[Quasar]

I would also like to know ow much this will cost. Right now without decent info this is reminding me of virtual reality which never took off.

Well when the company was demoing it last year (at CES) they were talking about sub-100$ price ranges. I think the only way they'll be able to introduce it is by packing it in with a major game (either a really good casual title or something big and mainstream like say Madden or FIFA (or Halo)) and then with the console.

One thing it does do is make it clear that MS has no plans for a next gen console in the next few years.

[Quasar]

There are a lot more important things M$ should be considering rather than investing in stupid gimmicks.

I certainly don't think motion control is a gimmick. Its clear to me its the future of all the consoles. Its like multi-touch I think in that its radically altering control systems for the class of devices forever.

[tantriccereal]

I certainly don't think motion control is a gimmick. Its clear to me its the future of all the consoles. Its like multi-touch I think in that its radically altering control systems for the class of devices forever.
there are more important things M$ need to address, IMHO, such as their continued practise of ripping off their customers, overcharging for even the tiniest content, charging to play Live (most importantly!!!), and continually manufacturing crap quality hardware. Once they sort that lot out they are welcome to invest in stuff that, for now, is gimmicky.

[Brawndo]

there are more important things M$ need to address, IMHO, such as their continued practise of ripping off their customers, overcharging for even the tiniest content, charging to play Live (most importantly!!!), and continually manufacturing crap quality hardware. Once they sort that lot out they are welcome to invest in stuff that, for now, is gimmicky.

From a consumer standpoint, I agree with you.

However, from a business standpoint, these things are all features, not bugs. Except possibly the hardware quality, that's cost them a lot of money. The rest of these things are all things that make them a lot of money, which is their purpose.

And now, they are investing in something that, if it works half as well as they are claiming, stands to make them a huge pile of money. It follows.

And more to the point, I don't think I agree that all the points you mentioned are bad moves on MS's part. I'm glad they charge to play on Live; I can't imagine how much worse online assholery would be if people could make free accounts any time they felt like it, and never have to care if that account got banned because then they could just make another one. If one can't squeeze $50 a year out of their budget to pay for a Live subscription, I can't imagine how one would afford to buy a 360 or any games for it anyway.

Also, overcharging for content is more or less relative. I'm trying to think of something I paid for on Live that I felt I was overcharged for, I can't think of any.

[YorkusRex]

I have trouble taking any post that contains "M$" seriously.

[Qooroo]

there are more important things M$ need to address, IMHO, such as their continued practise of ripping off their customers, overcharging for even the tiniest content, charging to play Live (most importantly!!!), and continually manufacturing crap quality hardware. Once they sort that lot out they are welcome to invest in stuff that, for now, is gimmicky.

Hardware issues aside, the DLC pricing is essentially the same on both consoles. And, as someone who has used both online services pretty, the difference in quality more than justifies the price.

[Vargen]

The thing that bugs me about the ad is the number of games that merely replaced a controller with pantomime. I mean, I like the Wii controls, but I think having the physical remote to swing around (and having it make noise and vibrate for feedback) is a big part of why it works.

That said, there are some neat ideas in there.

[Eurhetemec]

Its a more natural interface (if it works as advertised) and motion control is the new thing.

That's it's more natural doesn't necessarily mean much, though. Speaking to your computer is "more natural" (by miles) than typing. However, there isn't a single (afaik) speech-input program on the market that can remotely match even a fairly decent typist for speed and precision, especially when considering punctuation, technical language and so on.

My concern about this interface is that it'll be similar to speech processing - more natural and wildly, WILDLY more clunky. The presentation MS have given did nothing but reinforce those fears, as all the games they were showing looked extremely clunky and clearly had "incomplete" controls (it was unclear in the racing game how she was accelerating/slowing, and the monster game appeared to be "on rails", as did the beat-em up - which also appeared to require hilariously high levels of RL physical agility - thanks guys but I'm not 16 any more, and if that bans me from playing your beat 'em ups, I think that you're limiting your market much more sharply than you would be by requiring people to learn a controller).

I see that it can vaguely ascertain what you're doing, wearing etc. (slightly creepy/impressive), but I don't see any indication that it's fast, that it's reliable, or that it allows you to play games that are actually better/more exciting than other games.

It certainly would allow some more complex interactions and would be good for some stuff, but it's not really, y'know, games...

Anyway, I'll believe it's "the future" when I see games that I and people (especially "non-gamers", though that's precious few people under 40 now) I know are actually excited about playing that genuinely, non-gimmick-i-ly require that sort of interface to play.

[tantriccereal]

I have trouble taking any post that contains "M$" seriously.
well that's your prerogative. I have found M$ to be just that and I see no reason to change that opinion.

However I can't see something like this being viable - how would it work for a game like Streetfighter with it's implausible kungfu, or CoD where you hold a gun.

Anything so complex would also be vulnerable to the vagaries of latency - in much the same way that online gaming can suffer.

[Eurhetemec]

However I can't see something like this being viable - how would it work for a game like Streetfighter with it's implausible kungfu, or CoD where you hold a gun.

There are a number of this problems with this device that the Wii with it's Wiimote manages to dodge.

1) Movement - You can only move so far in real space, for your character to move back and forth, or strafe, there are three possible solutions:

1a) Small, one-handed controller, a la Nunchuk part of Wiimote. This would be fine, but wouldn't be very "naturalistic".

1b) "Fake" movements, like leaning back or to the side or signalling in some way that you want to move - simple, but not "natural".

1c) Put it all "on rails". This is what they seem to doing with the example games - there's only a set space in which you can move on screen. Probably combine this with "fake" movements for any kind of actual game.

2) Fighting/melee - There's literally no way this thing can accurately track an "imaginary sword" reliably, and if they're going to force people to do actual or close-to-real martial arts to play fighting games, they've got to be kidding themselves.

I suspect, though, that the "wand", which is associated with the Natal, which I don't believe we've been shown yet, will be our lightsaber/sword/mace. Again, movement is an issue, so there's likely to be some degree of on-rails-ness, unless the wand also has a "nunchuk" equivalent. And if it does, then this essentially becomes a glorified and overpriced Wiimote so...

3) Shooting - Again, no way this can accurately track an "imaginary gun" on all people at all speeds. People hold their imaginary guns differently and with varying levels of consistency. A toy gun, which it's pre-calibrated for? It could probably manage that - You could sell your shooting game with a bright-orange assault-rifle or whatever.

For games, I really have trouble seeing anything meaningful that this can do that the Wiimote + nunchuk (certainly with the new precision add-on thing) can't do significantly better.

For non-game stuff, I can see a number of applications, but games? Meh.

[Brawndo]

well that's your prerogative. I have found M$ to be just that and I see no reason to change that opinion.

What exactly do you mean when you you found M$ to be "just that?" Just that means what? I don't understand.

Are you actually upset because a corporation has money as its primary goal?

[Qooroo]

What exactly do you mean when you you found M$ to be "just that?" Just that means what? I don't understand.

Are you actually upset because a corporation has money as its primary goal?

And do you really believe that they're any different from Sony and Nintendo in that regard?

[tantriccereal]

What exactly do you mean when you you found M$ to be "just that?" Just that means what? I don't understand.

Are you actually upset because a corporation has money as its primary goal?
upset? no, I'm not naive. Saddened that they put money before everything to the point where dealing with them and using the console makes it feel like they premanently have their fingers in my wallet. I don't like that feeling.

Take the fee for having a gold membership. People mistakenly think they are paying to play online. They are not; they are paying to be able to access that portion of the 360 software. Microsoft don't supply the connection, that's between the ISP and the user. The machine, which has already been paid for, provides the hardware for that connection and the software provides all the issues likewise, which the user has also paid for. What then are we paying for, as gold members? The privilege of playing online. That IMO is moneygrubbing and it's wrong.

And that's just one example of the XBOX gravy train; there's also the horrendous points mechanism and the fact that almost everything is NOT free - right down to pictures and themes from games you've alraedy paid for! (or even not!)

Now before we get funky motion capture tech; let's see some real evolution.

[tantriccereal]

And do you really believe that they're any different from Sony and Nintendo in that regard?
Well, for now at least, Sony areen't charging to play games online.

[Qooroo]

Well, for now at least, Sony areen't charging to play games online.

And they offer a worse online service. And charge $100 extra for a console. What's your point? Yes, some people will prefer not having to pay a fee for online gaming. And that's fine. And that makes the PS3 a better system for them. But pretending that the 360 is massively overcharging for exactly the same functionality is just naive.

[Eurhetemec]

But pretending that the 360 is massively overcharging for exactly the same functionality is just naive.

Well it would be if he were saying that, but I don't see it. What we actually see is MS massively overcharging for what is, relatively speaking, a slightly superior degree of functionality, and considering the gigantic amount of microtransaction material they seem to want to stack on top of this, it doesn't seem very reasonable.

With MS' Gold Service, I've never remotely felt there was any value to what I was spending - it was merely an additional, essentially unnecessary, charge. That's not good. In the end it's driven me away from online gaming on my 360 and ensured that I've always bought PC games where possible, not 360 ones, because I can play them online for free, with equally good or superior functionality (I can think of not one game on both that isn't equally or more functional, online, on PC), without having to pay extra.

[tantriccereal]

And they offer a worse online service. And charge $100 extra for a console. What's your point? Yes, some people will prefer not having to pay a fee for online gaming. And that's fine. And that makes the PS3 a better system for them. But pretending that the 360 is massively overcharging for exactly the same functionality is just naive.

Microsoft don't provide an online service. They provide a means to one - that's what you pay for through gold. My ps2 (the console that outshone the old xbox) could play games online with no more trouble than my 360 now, for free years ago.

The reason Sony's service sucks has nothing to do with lack of investment through player expense. Probably more to do with software issues and hardware with the machine itself. Don't forget XBL existed successfully on the old xbox whereas Sony have only recently gotten into the online gaming market, and the ps3 is a lot more advanced than the 360.

Certainly the ps3 is much more expensive - Sony dropped the ball on the pricing and it cost them. However M$ rushed their machine to market - that too hasn't been without consequence (as I myself have experienced): RRODs and E74 problems etc.

There are more important issues than a gimmicky controller right now. I also like the regular controller. It's part of the gaming experience. The feel of being the player through a simple and comfortable interface is actually a big part of the gaming experience. I'm not opposed to new technology such as this, but there is no way this is workable right now at all. Maybe in five/ten years or so.

[tantriccereal]

There are a number of this problems with this device that the Wii with it's Wiimote manages to dodge.

1) Movement - You can only move so far in real space, for your character to move back and forth, or strafe, there are three possible solutions:

1a) Small, one-handed controller, a la Nunchuk part of Wiimote. This would be fine, but wouldn't be very "naturalistic".

1b) "Fake" movements, like leaning back or to the side or signalling in some way that you want to move - simple, but not "natural".

1c) Put it all "on rails". This is what they seem to doing with the example games - there's only a set space in which you can move on screen. Probably combine this with "fake" movements for any kind of actual game.

2) Fighting/melee - There's literally no way this thing can accurately track an "imaginary sword" reliably, and if they're going to force people to do actual or close-to-real martial arts to play fighting games, they've got to be kidding themselves.



I suspect, though, that the "wand", which is associated with the Natal, which I don't believe we've been shown yet, will be our lightsaber/sword/mace. Again, movement is an issue, so there's likely to be some degree of on-rails-ness, unless the wand also has a "nunchuk" equivalent. And if it does, then this essentially becomes a glorified and overpriced Wiimote so...

3) Shooting - Again, no way this can accurately track an "imaginary gun" on all people at all speeds. People hold their imaginary guns differently and with varying levels of consistency. A toy gun, which it's pre-calibrated for? It could probably manage that - You could sell your shooting game with a bright-orange assault-rifle or whatever.

For games, I really have trouble seeing anything meaningful that this can do that the Wiimote + nunchuk (certainly with the new precision add-on thing) can't do significantly better.

For non-game stuff, I can see a number of applications, but games? Meh.
Imagine trying to play Voldo through the Natal!

Or if SC comes with a sword peripheral, swinging like Nightmare and accidentally throwing the sword through your HD plasma TV!

Doesn't bear thinking about!

I did 10 wii boxing matches round a friend's house and woke up the next day sore as a bastard!

E2A: http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/02/sony-announces-new-ps3-motion-controller/

[ROMzombie]

The more-than-likely effectiveness of Natal, given PSEye and other peripherals previously. Keep in mind that not one image they had on show was actual gameplay; they were all mockups.

http://www.2pstart.com/wordpress/comics/2009-06-03.jpg

[Achilles]

There are a lot more important things M$ should be considering rather than investing in stupid gimmicks.

Dude. I hate to embaress you but you made a mistake in your post. You accidently put $ instead of S.

[Lethe]

I watched Microsoft's, Sony's, and Nintendo's conferences and I have to say that Microsoft's had me the most excited, although not because of Natal. The paint studio looked kinda interesting, but I know I'd get bored of it fairly quick.

I'm just not into the whole motion capture thing. I like using a controller or a keyboard and mouse. One of the reason's why, for the first time since the NES, I passed up buying a Nintendo console.

I did think it was pretty weak of that guy from Microsoft to try and take a pot shot at Nintendo by commenting that Natal would be "true" motion control and not just a motion sensing device or whatever, which he referred to as a gimick or something similar.

Yeah, right. Once again Nintendo leads in innovation. Who had the first analog stick? Nintendo, followed by everyone else. Now, once again, Nintendo's opened up a new type of gameplay and Microsoft doesn't even have the decency to give them credit or to at least avoid bashing them.

[Quasar]

Yeah, right. Once again Nintendo leads in innovation. Who had the first analog stick? Nintendo, followed by everyone else. Now, once again, Nintendo's opened up a new type of gameplay and Microsoft doesn't even have the decency to give them credit or to at least avoid bashing them.

You know...didn't motion control on home consoles start with the Eyetoy on PS2?

[ROMzombie]

You know...didn't motion control on home consoles start with the Eyetoy on PS2?
Er (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Glove), no (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Force).

[Phasma Felis]

well that's your prerogative. I have found M$ to be just that and I see no reason to change that opinion.
You're missing the point. It's not that you dislike Microsoft, it's that typing "em-dollar-sign" makes you sound like a sulky twelve-year-old.

[Phasma Felis]

Yeah, right. Once again Nintendo leads in innovation. Who had the first analog stick?
Atari, in 1982.

[Phasma Felis]

Anyway.

I desperately want to love this, but Molyneux' bullshit rhetoric makes me want to punch God in the face. "Science fiction writers haven't imagined what we're able to do today"? Oh, please.

[ROMzombie]

*snicker*
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2009/20090605.jpg

[Quasar]

Atari, in 1982.

What about twin analog sticks?

[Quasar]

Anyway.

I desperately want to love this, but Molyneux' bullshit rhetoric makes me want to punch God in the face.

Well one podcast group (the Giant Bomb guys) reported that Milo was controlled by another person with a controller and that he really only responded to tone.

[Quasar]

Er (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Glove), no (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Force).

Ahh. I'd never even heard of that.

[Phasma Felis]

What about twin analog sticks?
As far as I know, the first for a console was the PlayStation Analog Joystick in April 1996.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/SonyFlightStick.jpg

The N64, with one stick, hit stores in June '96. Sony followed up with the two-stick Dual Analog in '97, and the DualShock in '98.

(To be fair, Nintendo was the first to put an analog thumbstick on a proper gamepad.)

[Menchi]

To be honest, I'm not convinced Natal is going to live up to the hype - and as for Milo? While his interaction may not be "scripted" the woman playing it would have a pretty good idea of how to make it look like she was interacting with Milo.

I'm holding judgement until this becomes commercial - and even then, it seems a gimmick technology and not a style of motion control play I'd want to be playing more than occasionally - compared to Wii or what Sony have advertised.

Conan

[Reef]

Yeah, I'm right there with people saying it won't meet the hype.

However, if it does manage to track full-body movements with anywhere near the fidelity they're claiming, Xbox could be set to grab some of the home fitness market from Nintendo. I've got a Wii, and I use it for fitness. It works, but there are some frustrations with the controllers and having the software recognize your movements accurately (there's a limit to what it can do with a wiimote in one hand and the nunchuk strapped to your leg). Full body sensing with no external device would be a godsend.

As for the other functions, I'm really skeptical. As mentioned above, it's great to be able to do jump kicks and have the game do the kick, but only if the player is capable of that :). It would pretty much spell the end of me playing any action game. And for the race car game they showed...how long could you sit there with your hands stretched out in front of you like that? Much easier to sit back with a controller.

The voice recognition seems pretty out there as well. Take the couple on the couch ordering movies by voice...how does the console know when you are talking to it, instead of each other?

[Random Nerd]

Really, the fact that they have Johnny Chung Lee (you know, the guy from the awesome wii hacking videos) on the project, and he thinks things are great, does a lot to impress me.

[Uthred]

Much like the Wii it seems to be targeted at a more "casual" market, which is certainly an excellent idea from a business perspective. But its also the reason I havent turned on a Wii in months (and Im certainly not a particularly "hardcore" gamer).

[OldKentuckyShark]

I have trouble taking any post that contains "M$" seriously.

I appreciate it.

It's nature's way of saying "IGNORE ME!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uywgp-XXwgE)

[sporkpimp]

One thing that would be very cool, but which I did not see, would be if you could type with this thing, using an on-screen keyboard and the motion capture stuff.I--- what?

That sounds awful. Mitten typing with literally no tactile feedback? It's got all of the disadvantages of virtual keyboards with none of the not-disadvantages, like having a virtual keyboard.I would love to play a adventure game where I can move objects with my hands (examine it up close), duck under desks to hide or check for something under it, type stuff up on a computer (hacking), etc.Part of the reason why point-and-click adventure games are fun is because their interface is typically pretty transparent - hey, can I click that? I can! Success!

By contrast, the nightmare that would be trying to figure out which pixel-bitch body movement the machine wants you to make ("can't move the chair... can't lean around the chair... can't lean over the chair... oh, I'm supposed to rotate the chair!") seems like anti-fun.You could use it for shooters and actually pulling a triggerWith no sights to aim down, no stock to steady your aim, and every movement of your trigger finger forcing the game to guess whether you're firing or trying to aim in a different direction. (perhaps doing two handed for extra accuracy/stability)With hilarious results when you realize that you can't possibly keep both hands lined up properly and the game will have to decide which hand is the hand you actually are aiming with and which one is just wandering.a mecha game where both hands is used to control the mecha/triggers for shooting itI can't be the only one who doesn't see the point of a complex virtual reality joystick. It's like that Simpsons episode where the kids grudgingly do yard work for a chance to go to the county fair, and once they're at the fair run excitedly to the Virtual Reality Yard Work Simulator booth because it's virtual reality.Its a more natural interface (if it works as advertised) and motion control is the new thing.

Just like multitouch is.I presume that you are being sarcastic, and I agree with you. These gimmicks that create a few new types of game (I, for one, adore four or five Wii games -- Trauma Center, RE4, anything Zapper) at the expense of being pretty much useless for most of the games we know and love (Mario Kart). The difference being that at least the Wii still has a gamepad, joystick, and light gun, so you can actually play games the exact same way you've always played them when the motion control gets tiresome.

By contrast, the only Eyetoy game anyone actually liked was Eye of Judgement, which is an incredibly (incredibly) far cry from the straight-from-the-1990's Virtual Reality pipedream that Molyneux is trying to sell us.

Edit: If you're not being sarcastic, I just think you're wrong. :)

-A.

[sporkpimp]

Incidentally, I am totally picturing what could be an awesome Light Gun-style shooter where you are a wizard and your various hand motions do giant wooshy spells. As long as you're not expected to aim within a foot of anything accurately and none of the hand motions are more specific than "circle clockwise to make a tornado" or "clap your hands loudly to thunderwave", that could be a riot.

[Qooroo]

Incidentally, I am totally picturing what could be an awesome Light Gun-style shooter where you are a wizard and your various hand motions do giant wooshy spells. As long as you're not expected to aim within a foot of anything accurately and none of the hand motions are more specific than "circle clockwise to make a tornado" or "clap your hands loudly to thunderwave", that could be a riot.

Ok, that sounds awesome.

[Eurhetemec]

Incidentally, I am totally picturing what could be an awesome Light Gun-style shooter where you are a wizard and your various hand motions do giant wooshy spells. As long as you're not expected to aim within a foot of anything accurately and none of the hand motions are more specific than "circle clockwise to make a tornado" or "clap your hands loudly to thunderwave", that could be a riot.

It'd have to be on rails or somehow actually use a controller, though. It could still be pretty awesome in a Virtua Wizard kind of way, but would likely get pretty old pretty fast unless they found some good ways to add complexity/replay value.

The main problem with that particular game would, I think would be aiming your spells - there's no sign that it can see where you're pointing precisely.

This is the major problem with half the ideas people have - they're not thinking about how:

A) This doesn't* have ANY controller element, at all, unlike the Wii and Sony ones. This means everything has to be either static or on-rails, or have you do something weird to move.

and

B) Has only been shown to be capable of understanding gross, large-scale bodily movements. There's no way this is going to let you "air type", for example - It can't even see your fingers. It probably won't even like you "air write" at a reasonable speed.

* = Currently. I'm confident that MS is working on one because it's impossible to miss this deficiency, and they had that wand patent recently. Which would tie in with a Virtua Wizard kind of game pretty well.

Honestly, from a "Wow that would actually be fun!" perspective, I'm more impressed with Sony right now. Their controllers are what the Wii controller promised to be but wasn't (well, maybe it is with the new add-on, I dunno).

[sporkpimp]

It'd have to be on rails...What exactly did you think I meant by "Light Gun-style shooter"? The main problem with that particular game would, I think would be aiming your spells - there's no sign that it can see where you're pointing precisely.I wish you'd actually read my post when responding to it, wherein I voiced pretty much exactly the same sentiment.

The game would still suck (as will all games using this peripheral, barring Eye of Judgement-esque creativity), but at least it would be something no one's done yet.

-A.

[Quasar]

Edit: If you're not being sarcastic, I just think you're wrong. :)



I wasn't. The whole 12 button dual analog control system that is standard is really an overly complicated system that many people have trouble with. Which is part of the reason why Wii Sports works so well.

Even I a 'gamer' have trouble with it in respect to 1st and third person action games, which is if I play those sorts of games its normally on the PC. Though there are occasions where I've had to force myself to play it on a console (like with Uncharted).

[JonAcheson]

I--- what?

That sounds awful. Mitten typing with literally no tactile feedback? It's got all of the disadvantages of virtual keyboards with none of the not-disadvantages, like having a virtual keyboard.

My thought is you would have a virtual keyboard that would pop up on screen, for entering short bits of text like file save names. It would be easier than entering text with a regular controller, or getting up to fetch a wireless keyboard.

By way of comparison, one finger touch typing on the Wii works OK, but is a little slow. This would be better than that.

You're not going to write War and Peace on it, but that's not what it's for.

[Brawndo]

Here's some video of Felicia Day trying out Natal at E3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuJivFFa-c&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffeliciaday.com%2Fblog&feature=player_embedded

[sporkpimp]

I wasn't. The whole 12 button dual analog control system that is standard is really an overly complicated system that many people have trouble with. Which is part of the reason why Wii Sports works so well.

Even I a 'gamer' have trouble with it in respect to 1st and third person action games, which is if I play those sorts of games its normally on the PC. Though there are occasions where I've had to force myself to play it on a console (like with Uncharted).
Most Wii games that succeed with the new control scheme don't have anything to do with motion tracking, though -- they use the Wiimote as either a mouse (Trauma Center, Metroid Prime) or a light gun (Resident Evil 4, actual light gun games). Which is why 1st person games on the Wii are almost as good as they are on the PC: even though you don't have a keyboard, you do have a mouse, and I think pretty much everyone agrees that the mouse is the king of freelook.

Natal doesn't have either of those capabilities. The only actual game I've seen anyone actually play so far is the one Felicia Day is playing in the post above this one, and it looks about as complex as any given PopCap or Wii Sports title: sure to be a big hit amongst the Ma and Pa crowd*, but not what gamers think of when they think of big events in gaming (Half-Life, WoW, that sort of thing). I don't see the potential for using this thing as it's intended to be used -- I keep bringing up Eye of Judgement, but it's relevant because it showed that the best use of the EyeToy was not its intended use. Someone may come up with a badass use for it, but I'm betting that it will have nothing to do with what Microsoft has shown us so far.

In closing, though, I'll point out that I am: obviously not privy to anything that Microsoft hasn't shown us yet, potentially full of shit, and overjoyed that Felicia Day had the same idea as me ("I can't wait to throw fireballs like this!").

-A.

*Who, as far as I know, do not and never will own Xbox 360s, but that's a tangent

[Quasar]

And here's some celebs playing a Natal version of Burnout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-443dE5-gk

[Random Nerd]

Here's some video of Felicia Day trying out Natal at E3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuJivFFa-c&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Ffeliciaday.com%2Fblog&feature=player_embedded

She is freakishly adorable, is she not? Like the human equivalent of a baby bunny.

And with the other one, with Sugar Ray Leonard, look at how he is on the driving game, both when he's playing, and watching when other people are. Either he's a pretty decent actor, or he was really having fun.

[Quasar]

She is freakishly adorable, is she not? Like the human equivalent of a baby bunny.

And with the other one, with Sugar Ray Leonard, look at how he is on the driving game, both when he's playing, and watching when other people are. Either he's a pretty decent actor, or he was really having fun.

And you know watching those it makes me feel like I'm going to need a dedicated room for it, or at least one with lost of wide open spaces. Rather than a typical living room with lots of furniture around.

[Reef]

And you know watching those it makes me feel like I'm going to need a dedicated room for it, or at least one with lost of wide open spaces. Rather than a typical living room with lots of furniture around.

Yeah, this. It looks great in all these demos in wide open empty rooms with white walls. I suspect in my cramped living room, it be a lot less effective :).

[YorkusRex]

Well, for now at least, Sony areen't charging to play games online.

You mean "$ony".

[Eurhetemec]

And you know watching those it makes me feel like I'm going to need a dedicated room for it, or at least one with lost of wide open spaces. Rather than a typical living room with lots of furniture around.

It does seem that way, doesn't it. I'm looking at the spaces they're showing it being played in, and I'm trying to think of houses with a similar amount of space in front of a large TV, that I've been in, and I'm having difficulty coming up with any - and that's as an English person in sort of middle/upper-class upbringing/income bracket. I can think of only one of my friend's houses where there'd definitely be enough space for this, if you dragged his coffee-table out of the way.

I guess most houses have a room big enough if you drag all the furniture out of the way, but it seems unlikely that would fit well with "casual" use.

I'm impressed if it ran really, reliably and quickly tell if you foot is up or down in a racing game, because in most racing games (even Mario Kart) you need split-second timing to do well, and it seemed to be lagging horribly in most of the videos.

[Brawndo]

Here's another video of Natal in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ5J4yXA5sM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Foffworld.com%2F&feature=player_embedded

In the video, Jimmy Fallon specifically asks if this will work in, say, a dorm room, and the developer insists it will work in all kinds of spaces.

[Garry G]

You mean "$ony".

I believe $ony charge developers something like 16 cents for every gig of their stuff downloaded. It doesn't sound much but can add up to quite a lot.

[Juriel]

Here's another video of Natal in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ5J4yXA5sM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Foffworld.com%2F&feature=player_embedded
Oh wow, that Burnout bit surprised me. There seems to be a delay between movements and reaction, but I guess it's still in development... This is hella interesting to me. THIS looks like proper next-gen stuff!

[The Red Stranger]

I believe $ony charge developers something like 16 cents for every gig of their stuff downloaded. It doesn't sound much but can add up to quite a lot.

Yes taking a cut off of game sales is a part of the buisness model for all console manufacturers. In particular Sony and Microsoft rely on it as their main source of income as they lose money making consoles.

[Garry G]

Yes taking a cut off of game sales is a part of the buisness model for all console manufacturers. In particular Sony and Microsoft rely on it as their main source of income as they lose money making consoles.

I hear that this is a different cut that Sony implements themselves. To be fair the whole game finance stuff is a bit of a black art to me but I'm sure this is a separate charge.