[RPG]: Dragon Warriors, reviewed by Ranger7 (5/5)

[RPGnet Reviews]

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14344.phtml

Kieran Turley's Summary:

An easy to learn system combined with a very atmospheric setting. Perfect for new players and old hands alike.

Go to the full review (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14344.phtml) for more information.

[Ranger7]

Oops, just noticed that I got the attack/defense mechanic wrong...it's "take the defenders Defense stat from the attackers Attack stat" and not the other way around :)

[Destriarch]

Thanks for the review. Based on this I can easily tell that Dragon Warriors is not going to appeal to me. The lack of any kind of skill system is a huge turn-off, and on top of it, the whole thing sounds way too close to being a trimmed down version of D&D for my liking.

I can't shake the feeling that if this product hadn't been directly tied to a classic series of books, everyone would be calling it a fantasy heartbreaker.

-Ash

[Oz Chandler]

Same here, without a skill system there's no point in playing the game for us. Too bad, the review had me interested till then. Thanks for the review and saving me money!

[muriwo]

Hmm. As a player (now GM) and general fan of DW I would certainly refute the "fantasy heartbreaker" hypothesis. The original books are "classics" because the game and especially the setting they included were so good!. Otherwise no-one would use the word classic. I bought and played any number of games in that period (late 80s) and only a very few of them stuck. DW was one.

Re "trimmed down D&D", it is certainly cut down in terms of having less weight of rules. And it is not 180degrees opposite to D&D in its approach. But its system clearly involved some thought rather than just being a "pale copy" of D&D. Perhaps this was one reason I moved onto it after several years of seeing too many D&D campaigns degenerate into rules-quibbling and power-gaming.

Regarding the skills system, pace the reviewer, the new edition does actually have one but it is certainly very limited. Perhaps surprisingly, that doesn't make a huge difference to the game. I also play MRQ and WFRP both of which are fairly skills-focussed. However sometimes the mechanics of skills can get in the way of good RPing - as when a player has a great idea for dealing with a situation but is let down by an unlucky roll on the related skill. I guess it depends on the GM and the attitude of the players. Certainly if I had never played any game without a skills system then I would have missed out on quite a lot, I feel!

[Akrasia]

I have to get this for the setting alone! :D

(But the lack of a skill system is a plus for me.)

[Ranger7]

I don't think I'm going to be able to change anyone's mind on liking a skill system with their game but here are my two cents.

Skill systems are required in games to resolve action-conflicts impartially. There are three broad categories of conflict:

1. Combat

2. Social

3. Miscellaneous.

For RPGs combat is generally a large part of the conflicts, especially in fantasy RPGs. So if you have a built-in combat system then you don't need a skill system for it.

For social situations...well, this is an RPG...shouldn't social tasks be resolved by...you know...that roleplaying lark? This requires an impartial GM of course. I always found it funny that games that emphasis RP aspects tend to have massive social task resolution systems which usually slow down any attempt at RP. :)

Miscellaneous tasks next. Maintaining armour, butchering an animal, bandaging a wound....these are all tasks you might expect a crusader knight to be able to undertake. Should the knight have to roll for these tasks? What about bandaging his friends mortal wound, during a thunderstorm, at night, with only his tabbard to use as a cloth? Why reduce the drama to "Roll 1d20 and add your skill to see if your squire lives"? Isn't it much more fun to RP it out?

All of the above of course assumes you have a fair GM...and if the "creepiest gamer" thread is to be believed then this may not be the case for everyone :)

[Destriarch]

For RPGs combat is generally a large part of the conflicts, especially in fantasy RPGs.
Ah, you've never played in any of the games I've run then ;)

To make it clear though, I've nothing against games that don't have a skills system, they just aren't for me. My games tend to revolve around story and intrigue, not bashing uglies in a cave. I also tend to veto the need for dice rolls when the player's idea is well thought out and described, but I like to have the option of a skills system there if the player doesn't think things through, if they just want to roll the dice and get instant gratification. One of the problems with any skill system is that a player won't always have the knowledge needed to be able to offer such a detailed and well-considered plan. That's where rolling skills can be useful.

I've been looking for a fantasy game that really fills my needs for many, many years and drawn a blank. So far, Greg Stolze's Reign has come closest but even that has its problems.

Muriwo, you say that there is a skill system in DW. Would you mind describing it for us?

-Ash

[zomben]

For what it's worth, I used to feel the same way about skill systems in RPGs. Now, I honestly prefer games without them, or with very abstract ones. I like being able to allow characters' actions to influence the game world based on insight into how they're played, their backgrounds, etc.

The Dragon Warriors "Skill System" really isn't one, compared to things like Unisystem, RuneQuest, or even D&D3+. Some classes have a number of 'Skills' associated with it, and as the character levels up, he can take one or more of them. So, a Knight could begin to get better with a Bow, etc.

As far as "Attribute Checks" sort of thing goes, there's a system in place for that. The GM determines a success level for anything the PCs are trying to attempt, and says what Attribute is appropriate for that check. Then, if the PC's Attribute is equal to or greater than that success level, he automatically succeeds. If it's lower, then the player has to roll under the ability in question on 1d20 (again, attributes are rated 3-18).

For anyone who cares, I love Dragon Warriors, can't wait to play it more, and am doing some writing for the game. It's really cool.

[Andrew Montgomery]

Good review!

DW is a brilliant piece of writing...moody, atmospheric, rich. I've always found it to be a great place to mine ideas for other games, as well as fun in and of itself. If people chose not to read it simply for reason X or reason Y, too bad for them.

I personally am in the middle of the road when it comes to skills. Either build your system around them (like GURPS or BRP), or use something like a class (which is intended to eliminate the need for them). Don't give me a game with both (D&D 3.x-4, I am looking at thee). The brilliant thing about a class-based game is that skills suggest themselves (an OD&D Fighter who was played as a Knight would logically be able to identify heraldic symbols or know courtly manners...the same character played as a Barbarian would not). Having said that, BRP has always been my go-to game, so I have no problem with character-building from skills out. Just don't mix them.

[muriwo]

Destriarch, I understand where you're coming from. I just tend to find rolls a bit necessary, more along the lines that Zomben says.

However I do agree that it can increase the load on the GM who has less guidelines for deciding when to roll/not roll and how to roll. And equally, if the GM gets it wrong it can be difficult for the players.

Since you asked for more info about skill system, here is an excerpt from my review of DW (which tries to go into a bit more detail about the system, but needs a bit more polish before I publish it)

Each profession has access to certain skills - some of which are shared between more than one profession. However it is not a "true" skill system in the sense of RuneQuest for example, as:

skill acquisition is not on a consistent basis - it comes in fits and starts as different professions increase in rank
there is no standard mechanic for applying skills - each comes with its own "mini-rules"


The professions certainly allow for a little overlap in terms of equipment they can use, combat, magic and other skills, but there is no multi-classing. This does help really differentiate the professions and make for a variety of different responses to a situation given the makeup of the team.

[muriwo]

BTW here is a discussion I came across on another site about alternative skill systems for DW: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=38853