Vampire Counts

[This Guy]

I'm looking at getting ahold of a large quantity of miniatures for my birthday; I should be able to put down enough cash for a large starting army right at the get-go.

I've been looking at the Vampire Counts for WFB. They appeal to me more than the Tomb Kings, and I'm a bit tired of running Skaven that are almost entirely dependent on large numbers.

Are there any tactics or recommendations anyone can make for building and using this sort of army? Apart from just laying down my arms and fleeing from 'lig's troops, I mean.

[CrazyIvan]

Pummel 'lig into the ground.


He could use a good trouncing.

[Judas]

It's hard for me to take the Vampire Counts seriously, because I think of:

<img src=http://www.rwrinnovations.com/productpages/b140_files/image002.jpg>

[IceShadow]

Originally posted by CrazyIvan
Pummel 'lig into the ground.


He could use a good trouncing.
'lig played VC before he played Chaos. I don't think it'd be the best army to bring against him.

-Ice

[Tao Jones]

Originally posted by Judas
It's hard for me to take the Vampire Counts seriously, because I think of:

<img src=http://www.rwrinnovations.com/productpages/b140_files/image002.jpg>
Ah! Ah! Ah!

[Judas]

Originally posted by Rich Ranallo

Ah! Ah! Ah!

Oh! Ak! Oi!

[Gloombunny]

Originally posted by Judas
It's hard for me to take the Vampire Counts seriously, because I think of:

<img src=http://www.rwrinnovations.com/productpages/b140_files/image002.jpg>
Point, but it's not like you have to play Necrarchs.

[Judas]

Originally posted by NatalieD

Point, but it's not like you have to play Necrarchs.

So these Necrarchs are puppets that count to 10 all the time? What kind of point cost do they have?

[Gloombunny]

Originally posted by This Guy

I've been looking at the Vampire Counts for WFB. They appeal to me more than the Tomb Kings, and I'm a bit tired of running Skaven that are almost entirely dependent on large numbers.

I know little of Vampire Counts, but I was under the impression that they're also rather number-dependent. Like with that spell that summons 3d6 skeletons; isn't that one of their main features?

[IceShadow]

<img src="http://www.clanbob.net/images/htm/LOR/strip31.jpg">

[braincraft]

From what I gather, VC relies on numbers of disposable troops to support extremely hard characters. You basically have zombies and skeletons sitting around, causing fear and taking up space and soaking up casualties, while you have something like a Black Coach or a group of Wights and a Vampire Count ride around, using their immense attacking power to break through any single units they can get a charge on.

There are also lots of useful units like wolves, ghouls, bats, and ghosts of various sorts. Also, you can customize your heroes to give your army more versatility and personality.

[Judas]

They have bats? That's cool. :cool:

I want some War Bats.

[braincraft]

Originally posted by Judas
They have bats? That's cool. :cool:

I want some War Bats.

They have bats.


They also have big fucking vampire bats.


That's HARD CORE.














p.s.: my new avatar is the BIZOMB!

[Judas]

Originally posted by braincraft


p.s.: my new avatar is the BIZOMB!

Your new avatar is weak.

If you want kung-fu POWAA then you need you some Egg!

<img src=http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/btilc/Image12.jpg>

Or some Lo Pan!

<img src=http://www.bugeyedmonster.com/desktops/movies/bigtroublelittlechina.jpg>

[braincraft]

That guy looks like he's eating God's cock.

[Judas]

Originally posted by braincraft
That guy looks like he's eating God's cock.

How the hell do you know that?


In any case, here's another Lo Pan.

<img src=http://www.buysoundtrax.com/images/mb-btlc_inside-tray-small.jpg>

[This Guy]

Originally posted by braincraft
From what I gather, VC relies on numbers of disposable troops to support extremely hard characters. You basically have zombies and skeletons sitting around, causing fear and taking up space and soaking up casualties, while you have something like a Black Coach or a group of Wights and a Vampire Count ride around, using their immense attacking power to break through any single units they can get a charge on.

There are also lots of useful units like wolves, ghouls, bats, and ghosts of various sorts. Also, you can customize your heroes to give your army more versatility and personality.

I don't know about most of the troop types being totally disposable - given that most of the skeletons can be outfitted with spears and armor, and their immunity to psychology, I could see the VC being a pretty defensive army on a small amount of troops. Crushing units does seem like what the Wights are there for, though, so I'm thinking I could put armored skeletons in front with Wights behind for support?

You'll have to bear with me, these are all pretty general strategies, and I've yet to update to 6th ed rules, which I'll do once I have the army. I can't really come up with anything specific.

[Oddsod Blok'ed]

Vampire characters are extremely tough and difficult to beat in actual combat. Worse, there are about 5 different kinds of them (bloodlines) and each of them has different powers built in, plus they can upgrade with more powers just like magic items, so you never know just what you'll be facing in terms of characters in any particular game.

Vampire Counts also have some ass-kicking magic, like Invocation of Nehek and Hand of Dust; IoN raises either zombies or skeletons, and Hand of Dust autokills anything it wounds, if no saving throw is made. Doesn't matter if it's an Empire handgunner or a High Elf character mounted on a dragon, I don't think.

One of the problems is, I think, that you have to beat the enemy in close combat and beat him quickly (generally not a problem for harder units like Grave Guard or Black Knights), otherwise you start losing troops in combat resolution. VC troops are mostly pretty weak; I think Skeletons are even weaker than Goblins, and cost about 4 times as much. However, as everything in the VC army causes Fear (and a few things cause Terror, like the Black Coach and the Wraith, a Hero choice), you get an inherent advantage there.

VC armies also have Ethereal units, which are just plain cool. The only way to kill them, other than combat resolution (I believe), is to hit them with a magical weapon or a magic spell. Otherwise you just can't kill them. And Ethereal stuff ignores terrain, I believe, as they moves right through it. You have 3 things that do that, at least: Spirit Hosts (ghost swarms, basically), Banshees, and Wraiths (again, the Hero choice). This sort of thing is great for going after ill-protected war machines or beaten-down units (and Banshees have a weird ability called the Banshee Howl, or something).

You also have a few different flying units, like Fell Bats, Bat Swarms, and I think Spirit Hosts. Flying stuff is great for ignoring large blocks of enemy infantry and going after what you want to kill. Only problem is getting the unit there. As a side note, Strigoi vampires can take the Bat Form power, so in theory you can stick a Strigos in with a unit of Fell Bats.

One of the problems I saw was in shooting; Vampire Counts don't have any war machines (as if they really need them, though), but their archery is fairly limited. I might have missed something, but I think the basic Skeleton Archer Ballistic Skill is 2. Might be 3, but I'm not sure. Odds of you doing much damage with that are not good, and this also means that you're going to be vulnerable to ranged fire until you can get up close and personal, since Fear only works in close combat. A good way of compensating for this is Invocation of Nehek; a Vampire with this spell can raise units of Skeletons or Zombies right next to pesky archery or artillery units. I watched a game about 5 months ago where a Vampire Count army was opposing an Empire one, and the VC general used Invocation of Nehek to raise a unit of zombies right next to the Imperial volley gun. The volley gun crew wasn't there much longer.

[braincraft]

Originally posted by This Guy


I don't know about most of the troop types being totally disposable - given that most of the skeletons can be outfitted with spears and armor, and their immunity to psychology, I could see the VC being a pretty defensive army on a small amount of troops. Crushing units does seem like what the Wights are there for, though, so I'm thinking I could put armored skeletons in front with Wights behind for support?

You'll have to bear with me, these are all pretty general strategies, and I've yet to update to 6th ed rules, which I'll do once I have the army. I can't really come up with anything specific.

No matter how much you truss up skeletons, they still suck ass. Zombies are much, much worse. Their only advantage is in numbers. Pound-for-pound, don't expect to be as effective as anything tougher than a goblin. And their point cost isn't even that good.

The advantages they have are that they'll do pretty much what you want them to when you want them to do it, because they're unbreakable and immune to psychology. And you can regenerate casualties! With magic, you can make that block of 30 skeletons worth twice as much.

The bad news is that they're not too effective one-on-one (god, zombies are abysmally bad...) and you have to fear combat results, because a tough unit with good combat result boosters will wipe you out.


I just love the Black Coach, though. It's so god damn cool.

[Gloombunny]

Originally posted by Sociopathfinder
One of the problems I saw was in shooting; Vampire Counts don't have any war machines (as if they really need them, though), but their archery is fairly limited. I might have missed something, but I think the basic Skeleton Archer Ballistic Skill is 2.
It's 2, but the Counts apparently never thought of giving bows to skeletons. The only VC unit with a ranged attack is the banshee.

[This Guy]

Originally posted by braincraft


No matter how much you truss up skeletons, they still suck ass. Zombies are much, much worse. Their only advantage is in numbers. Pound-for-pound, don't expect to be as effective as anything tougher than a goblin. And their point cost isn't even that good.

The advantages they have are that they'll do pretty much what you want them to when you want them to do it, because they're unbreakable and immune to psychology. And you can regenerate casualties! With magic, you can make that block of 30 skeletons worth twice as much.

The bad news is that they're not too effective one-on-one (god, zombies are abysmally bad...) and you have to fear combat results, because a tough unit with good combat result boosters will wipe you out.


I just love the Black Coach, though. It's so god damn cool.

Okay, Zombies=lame. Understood. Is there any value to them at all beyond a lower point cost than skeletons? And what about Ghouls?

[Oddsod Blok'ed]

Strange, I would have sworn I saw rulers for skeleton archers in there. Oh well, it must have got tossed over to Tomb Kings, who have ridiculously powerful archers.

[Gloombunny]

Originally posted by braincraft

The bad news is that they're not too effective one-on-one (god, zombies are abysmally bad...) and you have to fear combat results, because a tough unit with good combat result boosters will wipe you out.

This is so very true. I've seen a unit of chaos warriors take a 20-skeleton unit to 5 skeletons in one round of combat. The round after that the skeletons were gone completely, even though the player had summoned 12 more skeletons into the unit and flanked the warriors with a black coach.

Regarding the black coach - it's awesome as hell but seems to be rather tricky to use. If you attack head-on with it, it'll end up losing combat to the enemy's ranks and standard and such and wither away even if they can't wound it themselves. On the other hand, if you tie the unit up with skeletons and then flank with the coach, the skeletons provide easy wounds for the enemy and the coach still dies to combat res. I guess the trick is to aim it at the units that are either small or composed of weak troops. Or have it team up with wights, but that's kind of excessive for most enemies.

[Oddsod Blok'ed]

Originally posted by This Guy


Okay, Zombies=lame. Understood. Is there any value to them at all beyond a lower point cost than skeletons? And what about Ghouls?

Ghouls are alive, and the only thing in the VC army that has to take Break tests. But they still cause Fear, and they're skirmished. They're your only skirmisher unit, and they get 2 attacks apiece, plus they're tough with T4, I believe.

I don't really get the point to Zombies either, aside from them being there as a "soak up fire" unit and being able to raise them with Invocation of Nehek.

[braincraft]

Originally posted by This Guy


Okay, Zombies=lame. Understood. Is there any value to them at all beyond a lower point cost than skeletons? And what about Ghouls?

If you don't care if they get hacked apart, they're cheaper than skeletons. Also, they're easier to raise with magic, so you can get even more of them. Their only advantage is numbers.

In other words, if you're sending your guys to tie up something strong that's going to kill them anyway, your numbers will let you last a little while longer, and maybe give you an extra round to get your heavies into gear.

Ghouls will fucking kill artillery crews. I've seen it happen, man.

[Gloombunny]

Originally posted by Sociopathfinder


Ghouls are alive, and the only thing in the VC army that has to take Break tests. But they still cause Fear, and they're skirmished. They're your only skirmisher unit, and they get 2 attacks apiece, plus they're tough with T4, I believe.

The skirmishing is a real problem for them. Without ranks or standards, they're likely to lose combat against any halfway serious enemy, even with their two poisoned attacks. (The T4 is nice, but it doesn't make up for having no armor save.) And with Ld 6, they're likely to run away when they lose. They'd be a good way to take out missile troops, but they're not terribly mobile. (Even though they skirmish, they don't scout or anything and have just 4 for movement.) I've never seen them do anything really useful.

[Gloombunny]

Originally posted by braincraft

Ghouls will fucking kill artillery crews. I've seen it happen, man.
If they get there in time. I'd rather use dire wolves; they're a lot faster, and still plenty strong enough for artillery crew.

[Oddsod Blok'ed]

They're skirmishers; I don't expect them to be able to run up and hack through a lot of Orcs or Empire Greatswords or even Goblins, but they're good for harassing the enemy and generally making annoyances of themselves. Most of the stuff I'm saying here is theory; Orcs and Goblins have no skirmishers and I don't play VC. Just seems to me that Ghouls are a good shock troop type. They hit hard, probably run away, but if they hit the right thing and pull it out of position or (for whatever reason) manage to run it down, they've probably paid for themselves.

[braincraft]

Originally posted by NatalieD

If they get there in time. I'd rather use dire wolves; they're a lot faster, and still plenty strong enough for artillery crew.

Yeah, probably. I've never seen anybody use bats effectively, though.

[Oddsod Blok'ed]

Originally posted by NatalieD

If they get there in time. I'd rather use dire wolves; they're a lot faster, and still plenty strong enough for artillery crew.

Problem with Dire Wolves is likely the same as with Goblin Wolf Riders. People see wolves on cavalry bases and immediately think "Fast Cavalry, gotta shoot it quick". Ghouls are much harder to kill with shooty stuff, considering that they're tough and they're skirmished. Plus, Ghouls can take cover in terrain if it's available and not really be impeded by it, while Dire Wolves get hung up.

[This Guy]

Originally posted by NatalieD

The skirmishing is a real problem for them. Without ranks or standards, they're likely to lose combat against any halfway serious enemy, even with their two poisoned attacks. (The T4 is nice, but it doesn't make up for having no armor save.) And with Ld 6, they're likely to run away when they lose. They'd be a good way to take out missile troops, but they're not terribly mobile. (Even though they skirmish, they don't scout or anything and have just 4 for movement.) I've never seen them do anything really useful.

This tactic probably wouldn't work, because I'm sure that in WFRP you can't do such things as move through friendly units, but with the way the ghouls, skeletons, and wights are set up, I'm almost thinking of arranging for something like in a Napoleonic deployment: Skirmished ghouls in front to soak fire, Skeletons behind them to act as an initial attack to soften up a unit, then the Wights directly behind the Skeletons to charge as closely as possible. Not likely, but still a thought.

[Gloombunny]

Originally posted by This Guy


This tactic probably wouldn't work, because I'm sure that in WFRP you can't do such things as move through friendly units, but with the way the ghouls, skeletons, and wights are set up, I'm almost thinking of arranging for something like in a Napoleonic deployment: Skirmished ghouls in front to soak fire, Skeletons behind them to act as an initial attack to soften up a unit, then the Wights directly behind the Skeletons to charge as closely as possible. Not likely, but still a thought.
Not exactly like that, but you can use the basic principle. The ghouls have to move away a turn before you charge with the skeletons, and skeletons are so cheap it's hardly worth protecting them that way. But charging in the front with skeletons and then from the side with wights is a fine tactic.

[Andyjobo]

Originally posted by This Guy
Okay, Zombies=lame. Understood. Is there any value to them at all beyond a lower point cost than skeletons? And what about Ghouls?

Zombies rock hardcore for a couple of reasons:
1) If they die, you don't give a fuck
2) Great for flank charging with a raised unit (buahahahah)
3) Hellish Vigour

[Andyjobo]

Originally posted by braincraft
Yeah, probably. I've never seen anybody use bats effectively, though.

I ALWAYS use Fell Bats in my army since I've played against Empire. Actually, I usually end up "playing" my opponent knowing he has war cannons and putting my bats in plain sight before I place them. Then, when he places his artillary in a "safe" position from the bats, I put my flying Strigoi vampire of ultimate slashing death that you've ever seen right where he can kill them.

Long story short, even if the bats don't get used, they're good for distracting. buahahahaha

[This Guy]

Very, very belated update:

I now have a small army assembled, mostly cobbled together from a boxed set I received for my birthday. Unfortunately, said boxed set was missing a few things, specifically a Doom Wolf (which I can do without), a Banshee (also manageable), and a mounted Blood Dragon Vampire Count. All units currently have a command group in them.

So here's what I have:

1 Blood Dragon Vampire Count on foot
1 Necromancer

5 Black Knights
20 Skeletons w. Spears + Shields
20 Skeletons w. Hand Weapons + Shields
20 Zombies (which I am not too sure will be used or not)
10 Dire Wolves

1 Spirit Host

1 Black Coach.

So not much, but it's a start. I'm thinking of picking up more Spirit Hosts, which seem like a pretty handy screen, but I'm not sure if these should be lumped into one solid unit or kept individual.

As far as vampires go, I'm going to stick with the Blood Dragons for now, acquiring a unit of Grave Guard for the Count on foot to command. The unit of Black Knights I have at the moment is unarmored, and I think I'll get a Wraith to command that. Someone suggested converting Bretonnians to Black Knights on another thread, and I plan to get a mounted Blood Dragon to command that unit, so with the barding represented on those I would have both a 'light' and 'heavy' unit of Black Knights.

What I'm still not sure on are Ghouls, Bats of both types, and Zombies. The zombies I am thinking of replacing with another Skeleton unit with Spears (keeping most of my foot troops defensive to hold troops in place until my Knights and Grave Guard can hit from the flanks and rear), and possibly getting the ghouls simply to soak up missle fire in advance of the main force.

One question - do enemy missle units get to ignore the Spirit Host if it is placed in front of other units?

And if there are any other suggestions with this army, I'd be happy to hear them.

[CrazyIvan]

Originally posted by This Guy

One question - do enemy missle units get to ignore the Spirit Host if it is placed in front of other units?

And if there are any other suggestions with this army, I'd be happy to hear them.

As they are heralded as a splendid missile screen in the army book, I should think not.

[This Guy]

Originally posted by CrazyIvan
As they are heralded as a splendid missile screen in the army book, I should think not.

Don't have the rulebook handy, thus I couldn't check.

The logic of this seems iffy. I mean, they're ghosts. They're see-through. The archers can see the significantly more solid troops on the other side. I probably shouldn't be advocating weakening my own army, but still.

[Gloombunny]

Spirit hosts do block line-of-sight - they're ethereal, but not transparent, I guess. You'll want at least two in a unit, giving them a unit strength of 6 together. That way they can attack an enemy on the flank and negate its rank bonus, and with the enemy unable to wound them and with its rank-based CR blocked, the hosts can hold the enemy in place for a very long time.

Incidentally, giving spears to a skeleton unit actually makes it more offensive than defensive. Using spears means trading armor save for attacks, so both the skeletons and their enemies will die off a little quicker. Also, you should be sure to give your skeletons light armor. It'll let them last longer if you can't raise more, and if you do raise more, you'll be raising more points worth with each casting if they have armor. :D

Dire wolves should be kept in small units. As fast cavalry, they can't gain a rank bonus, so there's not much benefit to large units, and as undead, they won't panic from shooting casualties. Better to have two units of 5 than one of 10.

[This Guy]

Originally posted by NatalieD
Incidentally, giving spears to a skeleton unit actually makes it more offensive than defensive. Using spears means trading armor save for attacks, so both the skeletons and their enemies will die off a little quicker. Also, you should be sure to give your skeletons light armor. It'll let them last longer if you can't raise more, and if you do raise more, you'll be raising more points worth with each casting if they have armor. :D


I was about to say that Invocation of Nehek only raises troops armed with hand weapons and shields, but then I realized that's only if a new unit is created, not if an existing one is bolstered, so that's all right then.

That the spears are more offensive seems like a rather weird quirk. I suppose both are defensive in different ways - spears against cavalry, hand weapon + shield against infantry. I realize now that I'm expecting too much to be hit by charging cavalry, which isn't important to multiple armies. I may get a fourth unit of skeletons with hand weapons now to give a good balance for either instance.

Edit: Forgot to ask - most of my skeletons are modelled out of the box without armor at the moment. However, I have a unit or two of Imperial troops around that I never used. If I converted the skeletons by replacing them with Imperial torsos, would that effectively show light armor?

[old hat]

A lot of VC players see to go with the Blood Dragons. It seems to be the most popular choice. I was looking at Von Carstein myself but that's just because I like the Hammer vampire flick look.

[This Guy]

Originally posted by old hat
A lot of VC players see to go with the Blood Dragons. It seems to be the most popular choice. I was looking at Von Carstein myself but that's just because I like the Hammer vampire flick look.

At the moment it's just because it's what I have. Lahmians aren't of much interest to me, and for some reason I can't see the advantages of a Strigoi army. I may consider getting Carstein and Necrarch vampires later, though.

[old hat]

Originally posted by This Guy
At the moment it's just because it's what I have. Lahmians aren't of much interest to me, and for some reason I can't see the advantages of a Strigoi army. I may consider getting Carstein and Necrarch vampires later, though.

I get the impression that Blood Dragons are the best fighty ones but I am not sure about that much even.

I don't like the Strigoi models. Fugly things imo. I don't like the Necrach one either.

The Lahmians are cool looking. I like the Von Carsteins best though. B vampire flick nostalgia.

[Andyjobo]

I actually only have a problem with Necrarchs. I just plain don't like them. ACK

I started out playing BD on Winged Nightmare. Worked well until he kept getting his mount shot out from under him by cannons. AHAHAH

Next tried Strigoi. They rock. Seriously, they are hardcore fighters, but alwasy on foot and no magic items. Only bloodline powers. I always give mine flying and eternal hatetred. It really trips your opponent up when a unit of skeletons with a strigoi in it 20" away seems so harmless, and then suddenly the vampire comes flying out of it AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!

Now I'm on my Lahmain kick. They're pretty damn good, except they fall short against ANYTHING immune to psychology, which just sucks. It totally throws their abilities in the garbage.

Never tried Von Carstein, but can see some good strategies w/ summon bats/carstein ring. Looks cool

Hate those damn Necrarchs, just dumb pieces of shit.

[Big Willy]

Originally posted by Judas
It's hard for me to take the Vampire Counts seriously, because I think of:

<img src=http://www.rwrinnovations.com/productpages/b140_files/image002.jpg>


r0xx0rz

[This Guy]

Originally posted by Andyjobo

Hate those damn Necrarchs, just dumb pieces of shit.

They're good for magic, naturally. And if you're playing at the 1000-1500 point level they're practically the only way you can field a Vampire as an army general. I personally do not like the idea of a Necromancer in charge, they're too comparatively weak. So at a small scale Necrarchs are the way to go.

[Gloombunny]

Even with Necrarchs I wouldn't bother with a vampire thrall general. A thrall has to spend his entire magic allowance on being a wizard in order to be the general, and he can't wear armor. That makes for a pretty easily-killed general and a rapidly-crumbling army. Much better, IMO, to use a necromancer as general and give him a nice ward save, or the cloak that makes him ethereal.

[CrazyIvan]

Originally posted by NatalieD
Even with Necrarchs I wouldn't bother with a vampire thrall general. A thrall has to spend his entire magic allowance on being a wizard in order to be the general, and he can't wear armor. That makes for a pretty easily-killed general and a rapidly-crumbling army. Much better, IMO, to use a necromancer as general and give him a nice ward save, or the cloak that makes him ethereal.

The other option is to ask for an exemption from your opponent. I do that with my 500 pt. BD force, mostly because I can cite the Border Patrol rules.

[Chade]

Just so you know, VC is a horde army.
One of my friends runs a VC army. He has no vampire, but 3 necromancers. He is an unholy terror on the battlefield. Only lizardmen and Tzeentch can stand up to him in the magic phase.

[old hat]

Originally posted by This Guy
They're good for magic, naturally. And if you're playing at the 1000-1500 point level they're practically the only way you can field a Vampire as an army general. I personally do not like the idea of a Necromancer in charge, they're too comparatively weak. So at a small scale Necrarchs are the way to go.

If I am going to play Vampire Counts, I want a bloody vampire in my army. The vampires/Transylvania vibe is the whole reason I like the army in the first place.

If I am not going to use a Vampire Count, I don't see any point in playing Vampire Counts at all.

[Oddsod Blok'ed]

Originally posted by Chade
Just so you know, VC is a horde army.
One of my friends runs a VC army. He has no vampire, but 3 necromancers. He is an unholy terror on the battlefield. Only lizardmen and Tzeentch can stand up to him in the magic phase.

Vampire Counts aren't really a horde army when they start out, since a basic Zombie is what, 6 points? 7? That's more expensive than greenskins, Skaven or some Imperials, with Dark Elfs and Dwarfs about the same in terms of point costs. Skeletons are 8, and more expensive than both Dark Elf and Dwarf Warriors, and the same cost as Dark Elf Warriors with a Shield and Dwarf Warriors with Heavy Armor. What makes them a horde is the ability to raise new units. More than once I've read about Vampire Count armies ending the game with more models on the table than they started. Still, though, it's unreliable as it relies on magic, and there is a dim chance you can blow yourself up with magic.

And I think you're referring to Khorne about the magic phase; Tzeentch gets extra power dice, not Dispel. But you're spot-on about Lizards.