WOW: will outland be changed?

[Charles Gray]

I'm wondering about that-- will outland get changed that much? Obviously time is moving on, so I'm hoping a few of the places in outland get changed-- if nothing else that refugee convoy by the Auchidon... they've been waiting out there for how many months?

[Eurhetemec]

Blizzard aren't re-working Outlands in detail, I believe the quote was "Outlands is Outlands". I would expect some minor changes, particularly where some questgivers might have gone to Azeroth and been replaced/reworked as a result, but nothing else, and I'd be unsurprised if those refugees were still waiting.

[Mostlyjoe]

Maybe in another expansion.

[Killfalcon]

It's to highlight the plight of real refugees, who sometimes are basically abandoned for years, relying on passing aid convoys (or in this case, leveling DKs).


More seriously, it's not been that long since tBC: the place still looks fantastic, questing is still great, you can fly there: there's no real need to spend art assets rebuilding it.

[Mostlyjoe]

More seriously, it's not been that long since tBC: the place still looks fantastic, questing is still great, you can fly there: there's no real need to spend art assets rebuilding it.

I could see an advanced time-line though. With their homeworld getting ka-blewed perhaps the refugees deside to make a go of it in the Outlands, focusing on Honor Hold and Shatrath.

[Chris Manning]

I'm highly doubtful. The primary reason for remaking the original world is, I imagine, for retention purposes. New low level content means that you'll probably make an alt rather than just drop the game when you hit 80, if you're a non-raider/pvper.

[Seroster]

Plus, most of the original areas have quests which are now badly out of whack in terms of design with what came after. As mentioned somewhere in the quoted Blizzcon comments, "no more quest rewards with agility and spirit". Outlands and Northrend also both have many more useful quest rewards.

[Eurhetemec]

Plus, most of the original areas have quests which are now badly out of whack in terms of design with what came after. As mentioned somewhere in the quoted Blizzcon comments, "no more quest rewards with agility and spirit". Outlands and Northrend also both have many more useful quest rewards.

Well, they'll have to re-itemize Outlands and Northrend too, because of the itemisation changes they're making (entirely removing spellpower and AP will dramatically alter a lot of rewards from both, as will removing Int from Enhance and Hunters), so that's kind of a moot point. However, even ignoring the rewards, it's true to say that the Classic world quests, aside from Dustwallow Marsh (and the BE/Draenei zones), are indeed wildly out-of-whack with those in Outlands and Northrend.

In particular, Outlands and Northrend both follow a sort of "hubbed progression" scheme (like WAR and other modern MMOs tend to). I.e. you go a camp, get some quests generally in the "local" area, and some quest that takes you to the next camp, which has quests in it's local area, and some quest directing you to the next camp and so on. The quests at any given hub will also tend to be compressed in level. This means that the flow is very natural and continuous.

However, with Classic WoW, as we all know, there are hubs, but sometimes few or none of the quests they have are actually local, requiring you instead to travel around the world, or to the other end of the zone and back or the like. In some cases a single hub has a very wide spread of levels, too, meaning a lot of back and forth to it, and likely some quests going green (or perhaps even grey) whilst you try to complete the ones which are actually nearby/near each other. There are also some quest givers who will happily assign you red-con quests, and others who won't give you quests until they're yellow.

They've been gradually improving this (I hear they made some changes to Ferelas, for example, in 3.2), but it's still a long way behind, and levelling optimization in Classic WoW is less about completing the quests as well as possible, and more about planning your routes. From the maps of level progression, it looks like they're basically tearing out the old content, mechanics-wise (no doubt the art and much of the geometry will remain), and rebuilding it from almost the ground up.

I have to say I am slightly concerned by one thing - In WAR, and to a lesser extent TBC/WotLK, the "hubbed progression" model can get a little, well, predictable, and they'll need to be very careful about precisely how many quests they put in, because too few, and people will have to hop zones, and too many, and people will be doing green quests for crappy XP and getting bored. It's a tricky balance, esp. if some people have +20% XP bonuses and others don't (and I believe Blizzard have indicated that gear will continue to function). I don't think Cataclysm will make WAR's primary mistake with their hubbed zones, though, which was to make them feel too linear, and to provide too many quests but no indication that you should be moving on.

[Fenris]

Having to redo all of the Azeroth quests seems...daunting. Very daunting. In the way that I wonder how they can do it so fast when it took them longer to get Outland out. Unless like has been mentioned that some original quests may stay. Who knows there.

I DO know some of the old quests really need some adjusting/removal. I remember in the Hinterlands on my ally, taking a quest to save Sharpbeak. So I go look at some crap(a yellow quest which had red enemies, but okay), and then I go here, and then I go there, and then he sends me across the world, and then I have to go to the Blasted Lands with a feather, and when that guy sent me somewhere else, I was like ''screw this, the griffon can become Forsaken chow for all I care.'' :p Gods know that this is not the only quest of it's ilk.

[Seroster]

Well, they'll have to re-itemize Outlands and Northrend too, because of the itemisation changes they're making (entirely removing spellpower and AP will dramatically alter a lot of rewards from both, as will removing Int from Enhance and Hunters), so that's kind of a moot point.


That's true (unless for some reason they decide to not change those items). But they "only" have to update the quest rewards in the database, not implement entirely new quests, which I assume they're doing for much of Azeroth.

[IceShadow]

I have to say I am slightly concerned by one thing - In WAR, and to a lesser extent TBC/WotLK, the "hubbed progression" model can get a little, well, predictable, and they'll need to be very careful about precisely how many quests they put in, because too few, and people will have to hop zones, and too many, and people will be doing green quests for crappy XP and getting bored. It's a tricky balance, esp. if some people have +20% XP bonuses and others don't (and I believe Blizzard have indicated that gear will continue to function). I don't think Cataclysm will make WAR's primary mistake with their hubbed zones, though, which was to make them feel too linear, and to provide too many quests but no indication that you should be moving on.

If I had my say, I'd just tune it for people without any XP bonuses. If you're in the RAF, you've got a guide to say "Hey, you should probably drop these green quests and let's go to the next zone," and if you've got the heirloom items, you've done it before and should know on your own. :)

[Mostlyjoe]

They need to RIP out any go here, not go across the world Quest pre 60 ASAP. Maybe 1 or 2 per arch as a preview of the next zone your going into, following the hub format, but if I have to criss-cross the world map 3+ times for 1 quest arc, (Linkin I'm LOOKING AT YOU!) I'm going to tear out my teeth.

So until you get that flying mount around 60 or so, there is little to no reason why your quests objectives shouldn't be found in riding distance of your horse.

[IceShadow]

They need to RIP out any go here, not go across the world Quest pre 60 ASAP. Maybe 1 or 2 per arch as a preview of the next zone your going into, following the hub format, but if I have to criss-cross the world map 3+ times for 1 quest arc, (Linkin I'm LOOKING AT YOU!) I'm going to tear out my teeth.

So until you get that flying mount around 60 or so, there is little to no reason why your quests objectives shouldn't be found in riding distance of your horse.

I...kinda had fun with the Linkin quest, mainly because I was able to map it out with other quest hubs ahead of time and follow that quest as I did other stuff. >.>

[Copernicus]

Outlands and Northrend will be mostly unchanged. Probably just NPCs and items.

[Mostlyjoe]

I...kinda had fun with the Linkin quest, mainly because I was able to map it out with other quest hubs ahead of time and follow that quest as I did other stuff. >.>

...well ya, Linkin's quest was fun only because it' was Linkin and it made sense in a narrative fashion. But your not going to tell me the Thousand Needs Racing team quests didn't drag on after a while. Or the "go to 3 different capital cities to get quests" arc that took you into some of the weirder instances.

[Eurhetemec]

Having to redo all of the Azeroth quests seems...daunting. Very daunting. In the way that I wonder how they can do it so fast when it took them longer to get Outland out. Unless like has been mentioned that some original quests may stay. Who knows there.

Well, the more a company does something, generally speaking, the more proficient they become with the software that they're using, and the more effective that software (if in-house, and I'm sure Blizzard's is) typically becomes at doing it's job. So if doing 1000 quests (made-up number) for Outlands took 2 years, and doing 1000 quests for WotLK took 1.5 years, then doing 2000 quests for Catacylsm might take 2 years, say. And they've been working on this since before WotLK, allegedly, which means some kind of progress for quite some time.

I doubt we'll see much staying, given that perhaps the majority of zones appear to have been changed to an entirely different level-range. So daunting, yeah, but if they've progressed in the way it sounds like they have, it might not take as long as one thinks.

I mean personally, I still think the major "delaying" factor is likely to be the new mechanics, not the new content (esp. given re-used art/geometry etc.). Ghostcrawler recently admitted that they haven't even decided how the "Mastery" system will work for all classes (O GREAT - Particularly worrying for DKs, as superficially it seems hard to see how it could work for them without becoming wildly more complicated), and are still looking at how the itemisation changes will work.

IceShadow - I suspect that's the answer, but it poses a small challenge nonetheless, because I know plenty of people able to get those rewards are not all that smart. No doubt a mod will save them.

[IceShadow]

...well ya, Linkin's quest was fun only because it' was Linkin and it made sense in a narrative fashion. But your not going to tell me the Thousand Needs Racing team quests didn't drag on after a while. Or the "go to 3 different capital cities to get quests" arc that took you into some of the weirder instances.

I LOVE the Racetrack quests! Get 10 quests, go kill stuff for an hour or two, turn in 10 quests. Super-efficient! :D I always hit that around level 30.

But yeah, going to TB, UC, and Org each for a level 15 instance kinda sucked.

[Mostlyjoe]

I LOVE the Racetrack quests! Get 10 quests, go kill stuff for an hour or two, turn in 10 quests. Super-efficient! :D I always hit that around level 30.

Well. Ya the first half of the quests rocked. But what about to "Go to Hinterlands for this" then come back. "Go to X and get Y" and come back. It got old to me. The early stuff, the weird sabotage stuff that just took me running to Gagetstan...those were fine.

[IceShadow]

Well. Ya the first half of the quests rocked. But what about to "Go to Hinterlands for this" then come back. "Go to X and get Y" and come back. It got old to me. The early stuff, the weird sabotage stuff that just took me running to Gagetstan...those were fine.

Oh...again, I either plan those into the zones I'm headed to anyway or ignore them. :)

EDIT: But that's my perspective as someone who's done the quests already and knows. For a new person it'd be a lot of running around...

[Eurhetemec]

I LOVE the Racetrack quests! Get 10 quests, go kill stuff for an hour or two, turn in 10 quests. Super-efficient! :D I always hit that around level 30.

I could be wrong, but I think he means the totally bogus racetrack quests where you have to go to Badlands and shit to get items and then back and then to some other ridiculous location (I want to say elite mobs underwater in STV). Those were a real kick in the nuts.

Whereas the ones you mean are practically TBC/WotLK-style quests, only with slightly more of a "random drop" element, and I like those too.

[Mostlyjoe]

Thank go they got over that "rare drop, grind 10X the number of critters to find X" quests and lowered the rarity of items on almost all monsters. Almost all.

[Dalek Kommander]

I'm wondering about that-- will outland get changed that much? Obviously time is moving on, so I'm hoping a few of the places in outland get changed-- if nothing else that refugee convoy by the Auchidon... they've been waiting out there for how many months?

And when are they going to get enough spikeboar tusks to finally build that #$%^! trebuchet?

http://www.crispygamer.com/comics/ding/page0001.aspx

[JustJo]

I was like ''screw this, the griffon can become Forsaken chow for all I care.'' :p Gods know that this is not the only quest of it's ilk.

Did you get to the end though? It's very cute when his parents come to bring him home after you rescue him

[Cortani]

I...kinda had fun with the Linkin quest, mainly because I was able to map it out with other quest hubs ahead of time and follow that quest as I did other stuff. >.>

Hehe, me too. I had a chart and everything :)

New design is better, but there's definitly a charm to the old world way (though its appeal is more narrow, I suppose).

[IceShadow]

Hehe, me too. I had a chart and everything :)

New design is better, but there's definitly a charm to the old world way (though its appeal is more narrow, I suppose).

Yeah...the appeal was "I've done this before, and it SUCKED, but now I know how it works and can beat the system! Hahaha!"

As opposed to just having fun the first time, which is honestly preferable. :p

[GestaltBennie]

Eventurally.

Some moldy old demon or dragon will return, or a new threat will pop out of nowhere. Nagrand will become a wasteland. The lakes of Zangamarsh will become a drained husk. The woodland areas in Blade's Edge and Terrokar will become even more twisted and decayed. The eco domes will crack, wither and die.

Nothing beautiful in that world endures, regardless of your characters' best efforts. But you will gain a few levels and they'll add the ability to play a vampire or a demon or something else that's dark and edgy, which will make it all okay.

[Kredoc]

I could be wrong, but I think he means the totally bogus racetrack quests where you have to go to Badlands and shit to get items and then back and then to some other ridiculous location (I want to say elite mobs underwater in STV). Those were a real kick in the nuts.

Whereas the ones you mean are practically TBC/WotLK-style quests, only with slightly more of a "random drop" element, and I like those too.

I'll be the first to admit some of those quests were just wrong, but they did guide players to new useful-level zones. Especially players who didn't know what they were doing and didn't use wowhead or equivalent. And they were at least a little more interesting than the more modern "You're done here, go talk to Fred over in that other zone."

And the Sharpbeak quest line was great.

[Seroster]

Somebody think of the sprite darters!

(Another quest line which bounced you all over the place.)

[Eurhetemec]

I'll be the first to admit some of those quests were just wrong, but they did guide players to new useful-level zones. Especially players who didn't know what they were doing and didn't use wowhead or equivalent. And they were at least a little more interesting than the more modern "You're done here, go talk to Fred over in that other zone."

And the Sharpbeak quest line was great.

That's kind of what I was saying - the linear progression with hubs can get a little tiresome, but the problem was that those quests I was mentioning were just fucking terrible design, because contrary to your assertion, they did not in fact "guide players to new useful-level zones", rather they were often not possible to acquire until you'd out-levelled literally half the quests in the zone they directed you to, and god help you if you left immediately, and did any quests in the other zone when you got there, because by the time you got back, the quest you'd gone to do in the first place was usually borderline grey.

So I think there's a decent-sized bit of design space between WAR-style "Now go down the road 200 yards and talk to the next camp" and early-WoW "Yeah now fuck off literally around the world, on a journey that will take you 30+ minutes, just so you can be told to come back - oh and we expect you to do these quests or you won't have enough XP to level up without grinding!" (which was certainly the case in early WoW). Hopefully they can continue to fit into that design space.

[Kredoc]

That's kind of what I was saying - the linear progression with hubs can get a little tiresome, but the problem was that those quests I was mentioning were just fucking terrible design, because contrary to your assertion, they did not in fact "guide players to new useful-level zones", rather they were often not possible to acquire until you'd out-levelled literally half the quests in the zone they directed you to, and god help you if you left immediately, and did any quests in the other zone when you got there, because by the time you got back, the quest you'd gone to do in the first place was usually borderline grey.


I guess I should have said "Were intended to guide players to new useful-level zones". I agree that they didn't exactly accomplish this all the time.

[Sedar]

I'm sure they'll still have the quests in place that say, "Hey, Mr. X over in Point B is in need of this here Item Q. Please bring it to him." In that way, new players will still have a choice presented to them on where they would like to level or introduce them to areas they wouldn't have otherwise noticed. Like a redone Stonetalon!

As for Outland, I think we'll have to wait for the next expansion beyond Cataclysm. With this expansion, we're seeing the completion of Azeroth. Sure they could add in continents, but I think we're more likely to see them expand on the idea set forth with TBC that those portals laying around everywhere actually go places and that Outland would act as a hub to various locations across the universe. I expect we'll see some changes in Outland then.

[Zeea]

I hate the "go to another continent and come back here" quests soooooooo much.

Also, it'd be nice if they could put a class trainer of every normal type in every capital city. The Darnassus region is hard enough on the Alliance as it is without having to go to Stormwind to train if you're the wrong class. I don't care if Night Elves hate mages (and they won't anymore, anyway); if they're going to ally with the Humans and Gnomes in a worldwide war, they'd damned well better let mage trainers set up shop.

[Kredoc]

I hate the "go to another continent and come back here" quests soooooooo much.

Also, it'd be nice if they could put a class trainer of every normal type in every capital city. The Darnassus region is hard enough on the Alliance as it is without having to go to Stormwind to train if you're the wrong class. I don't care if Night Elves hate mages (and they won't anymore, anyway); if they're going to ally with the Humans and Gnomes in a worldwide war, they'd damned well better let mage trainers set up shop.

I thought they had added trainers for all classes to all old-world cities? There certainly seems to be a mage trainer in Darnassus (http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=17105) at least.

[laudre]

I thought they had added trainers for all classes to all old-world cities? There certainly seems to be a mage trainer in Darnassus (http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=17105) at least.

Horde-side, there are shaman trainers in Orgrimmar, Thunder Bluff, and Stonard.

Stonard.

Leveling a shaman prior to Astral Recall anywhere in the Eastern Kingdoms sucked when hearthstones still had a full hour CD. It sucked doubly leveling a shaman in Ghostlands, when every other level (which come fast and thick there) you have to fly up to SMC, run through the entire city to the translocation orb, run to the zeppelin tower, and then through most of Orgimmar.

Even druids have a class trainer in SMC. And warriors only have to hit the translocation orb -- there's a warrior trainer in UC.

[Asmodai]

The bigger problem I see is that WotLK gear is MUCH better. Plus accellerated levelling.

The result is that players see Hellfire, Zanagarmarsh, Nagarand, and maybe Terokkar before going back to Azeroth and heading north.

There's pretty much no reason for a new player to visit Shadowmoon, Blade's Edge or Netherstorm aside from curiousity or going for achievements. Doubly so now that you don't even need to go to Shadowmoon for flying training. That's a lot of obsolete content.

[Brigorpser]

I believe that Northrend will recieve some changes, and that the only change to Outland is the inclusion of Archaeology stuff.

[Rupert]

Well, they'll have to re-itemize Outlands and Northrend too, because of the itemisation changes they're making (entirely removing spellpower and AP will dramatically alter a lot of rewards from both, as will removing Int from Enhance and Hunters), so that's kind of a moot point.

Bear in mind that, aside from Tier gear and some tanking badge awards, paladin plate retained its Int when 3.0 came out, with the result that well-geared ret paladins saw their mana stay static or drop as they levelled through Northrend.

However, with Classic WoW, as we all know, there are hubs, but sometimes few or none of the quests they have are actually local, requiring you instead to travel around the world, or to the other end of the zone and back or the like. In some cases a single hub has a very wide spread of levels, too, meaning a lot of back and forth to it, and likely some quests going green (or perhaps even grey) whilst you try to complete the ones which are actually nearby/near each other. There are also some quest givers who will happily assign you red-con quests, and others who won't give you quests until they're yellow.

Oddly, one of the zones with a decent flow and a good hub is Westfall. You walk in from the north, the quests are largely local and get harder as you move south, and then you get to Sentinel Hill, where there are a bunch of quests and a major chain, and they're almost all reasonably local (barring the one that takes you to Redridge and Stormwind). Despite this many people seem to thoroughly dislike questing in Westfall.

I have to say I am slightly concerned by one thing - In WAR, and to a lesser extent TBC/WotLK, the "hubbed progression" model can get a little, well, predictable, and they'll need to be very careful about precisely how many quests they put in, because too few, and people will have to hop zones, and too many, and people will be doing green quests for crappy XP and getting bored. It's a tricky balance, esp. if some people have +20% XP bonuses and others don't (and I believe Blizzard have indicated that gear will continue to function). I don't think Cataclysm will make WAR's primary mistake with their hubbed zones, though, which was to make them feel too linear, and to provide too many quests but no indication that you should be moving on.

I expect they'll be paced for those without BoA gear, and those with it will be expected to be aware of the fact that they'll be moving a bit fast. They have, afterall, gotten to the endgame at least once, so they aren't complete newbies (well, shouldn't be).

[Rupert]

I thought they had added trainers for all classes to all old-world cities? There certainly seems to be a mage trainer in Darnassus (http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=17105) at least.

As far as I know the only Alliance-friendly warlock trainer in Kalimdor is still the one at Ratchet.

[Chucky]

The bigger problem I see is that WotLK gear is MUCH better. Plus accellerated levelling.

The result is that players see Hellfire, Zanagarmarsh, Nagarand, and maybe Terokkar before going back to Azeroth and heading north.

There's pretty much no reason for a new player to visit Shadowmoon, Blade's Edge or Netherstorm aside from curiousity or going for achievements. Doubly so now that you don't even need to go to Shadowmoon for flying training. That's a lot of obsolete content.

And during the BC era you never had any reason to go to Sithlius and were probably going to skip a good chunk of WPL not to mention the various raids and instances they'd be skipping right over, plenty of time for them to revisit it latter if they want to. there's nothing to be gained by making the leveling process even longer. I suppose the designers could edit the outland so you visit the whole thing in eight levels but i'm pretty sure they have better things to do with their time.

[mhacdebhandia]

I actually really enjoy questing in Westfall - despite the fact that it's actually kind of objectively frustrating, with the packs of Defias jerks that come in twos and threes. I just like the ambience of the zone - yellow fields, abandoned farmhouses, all of it.

The result is that players see Hellfire, Zanagarmarsh, Nagarand, and maybe Terokkar before going back to Azeroth and heading north.

There's pretty much no reason for a new player to visit Shadowmoon, Blade's Edge or Netherstorm aside from curiousity or going for achievements.
When I levelled my heirloom-shoulders-wearing paladin through Outland recently, I deliberately stuck around Zangarmarsh doing every quest I could so that I could level up enough to go straight to Blade's Edge Mountains.

As a consequence my actual levelling path went Hellfire Peninsula -> Zangarmarsh -> Blade's Edge Mountains -> Netherstorm. I didn't hit 68 until I was already taking quests from the ethereals at the Stormspire, having exhausted Area 52 and the little goblin/ethereal hub that comes next.

Right now she's a few bubbles shy of 79, hanging out in Icecrown at the Argent Tournament. Since I don't play her all that often, I'm thinking about leaving her there and taking her through the tournament to get her Crusader title - which my mage main character already has, but of course he can't ride that nifty Argent Charger.

[dread_sigil]

I'd like them to redo outlands - if only because it seems to take everything bad about the quests and zone design in Azeroth and then make it about ten times worse. I really hate outlands... it's a hell of a drag and a grind to get through and I can't wait to get the hell out of there when I hit 68 and go to Northrend.

[Apok]

I'd like them to redo outlands - if only because it seems to take everything bad about the quests and zone design in Azeroth and then make it about ten times worse.

Umm... 'kay.

[Nahat Anoj]

I'd like Outland to get a few zones allowing characters to level from 70 to 80 (85 when Cataclysm comes out). That way, people can continue on with extraplanar plots and the like if they don't want to do Northrend stuff.

But I don't think Outland will change much, if at all.

[J. H. Frank]

Umm... 'kay.

^^^^

This.

Outlands take hours now to go from 58 to 68. It's not very arduous at all.

[Seroster]

The bigger problem I see is that WotLK gear is MUCH better. Plus accellerated levelling.

The result is that players see Hellfire, Zanagarmarsh, Nagarand, and maybe Terokkar before going back to Azeroth and heading north.


True, but it's a bit like doing every quest in Howling Fjord and Borean Tundra, and eventually hitting 80 before doing anything in Icecrown or Storm Peaks. You'll get there, but you'll be (at least a little) undergeared. *shrug*

I guess it couldn't hurt for them to rescale the levels of the mobs so Netherstorm and SMV were for levels 66-68, instead of 68-70.

[Njorhg]

I actually really enjoy questing in Westfall - despite the fact that it's actually kind of objectively frustrating, with the packs of Defias jerks that come in twos and threes. I just like the ambience of the zone - yellow fields, abandoned farmhouses, all of it.I will never forget those bastard Defias Pillagers - they're still among the game's top non-elite killers if you look at blizzard statistics database.

[dread_sigil]

^^^^

This.

Outlands take hours now to go from 58 to 68. It's not very arduous at all.

Not that I noticed (then again, I last did it before the last patch). I get that it's pretty subjective, but the only part of outlands that I vaguely enjoy doing is Nagrand, and that's only from the horde perspective.

That said, now that you can get a flying mount at 60 it does probably makes it a hell of a lot easier. But that doesn't change my opinion that the quests themselves are pretty dull.

[Eurhetemec]

I'd like them to redo outlands - if only because it seems to take everything bad about the quests and zone design in Azeroth and then make it about ten times worse. I really hate outlands... it's a hell of a drag and a grind to get through and I can't wait to get the hell out of there when I hit 68 and go to Northrend.

What?

That's just gibberish. Not only does it take a very short time to get from 58 to 68 in terms of hours (probably less than 48 to 58, certainly not much longer), but the quest design is nearly identical to Northrend, and extremely dissimilar to Azeroth. Takes Azeroth's problems and makes them worse? That's factually untrue. Azeroth's problems are ridiculous quest chains that drag you across the world, but if you don't follow them, they go grey, zones with too few quests in by far, zones where all the quest for the zone are in another zone, zones where the mobs are higher or lower level than the quests, zones when the quests drag you senselessly back and forth through the zone, and so on.

Outlands and Northrend do not have these problems.

It's fine to hate Outlands - I find that aside from Nagrand, it's a drab, dreary place, which feels so disconnected from my experience that I too can't wait to leave (SMV is a cool zone, and less disconnected-feeling, but too high-level, as others have noted). But don't blame the mechanical design, unless you also hate Northrend's mechanical design.

[mhacdebhandia]

WoW.com has something to say about this topic: (http://www.wow.com/2009/08/26/the-queue-the-twitcave/)

benfraley asked...

"Any ideas on what's going to happen to Outland and Northrend in the expansion? Will they just become ghost towns?"

The awesome "For the Horde!" kid at BlizzCon asked something like this. Essentially, will the Cataclysm have any impact on these areas. The answer was that Northrend will be impacted a little, but not quite as much as the rest of the world. The Cataclysm won't bother Outland since it's a uniquely Azerothian event, though they will comb over the Outland quests to make the leveling experience better.
That last bolding is mine, for emphasis.

[Capricious Geek Girl]

I'd like them to redo outlands - if only because it seems to take everything bad about the quests and zone design in Azeroth and then make it about ten times worse. I really hate outlands... it's a hell of a drag and a grind to get through and I can't wait to get the hell out of there when I hit 68 and go to Northrend.

Uhm, okay. Having just leveled two alts - soon to be three - through 48 -58, Outland and now Northrend, I'd have to say it's more "difficult" to get 48-58 than it is to get from 58 to 68. That's more due Classic's crappy quest design.

I dunno if you had a bad experience with Outland or what but, IMHO it's a very quick and very linear quest track. Which is even faster now than ever before because of the increased experience gained and heirloom items.

I was actually kind of bummed when I happened to clipped through Outland so fast on my Rogue that I didn't even need to finish Nagrand. Then again, now with the "instance door boss" I'm kind of glad I moved on. Completing the Hero of the Maghar would be murder to do until they upgrade the instance servers.

Anyways, like a couple of others have said, if you didn't like the tBC expansion, that's fine. But Outland's quest content was far and away much better than classic and certainly more efficient.

[J. H. Frank]

Uhm, okay. Having just leveled two alts - soon to be three - through 48 -58, Outland and now Northrend, I'd have to say it's more "difficult" to get 48-58 than it is to get from 58 to 68. That's more due Classic's crappy quest design.


If you hadn't said this I would have. The only fun thing in those levels is Winterspring because of its music.

[LowBeyonder]

There are three good reasons to do 55-60 in Old World, at least on Alliance side: "Are We There, Yeti?", "Wildkin of Elune", and "The Battle of Darrowshire". I was actually a little depressed I hit 60 on the pally I'm currently leveling before I even finished my Winterspring circuit, let alone the Plaguelands circuit I usually do.

Then again, I am a bit weird in that I'll stay in Azaroth until 60 or 61, and I don't go to Northrend until 70. I've tried going at 58 and 68, and I've found that the early questing in each new zone is quite a bit faster and more efficient if you go two levels later. Mileage may vary, of course.

Outlands blazes by, though. I think when I was powering Seregahl (my DK) through right after LK launch, I spent something like 6-8 total hours played in Outlands. It was nuts.

[dread_sigil]

That's just gibberish. Not only does it take a very short time to get from 58 to 68 in terms of hours (probably less than 48 to 58, certainly not much longer), but the quest design is nearly identical to Northrend, and extremely dissimilar to Azeroth.

I don't know what quests you were doing, but IMO they're a lot more similar to Azeroth's than Northrend's. They're grindy, dull, uninteresting, and lacking much cohesion. Northrend's are massively different and much more interesting, with much more structure and interesting lore bits, and the quests in each area all together make a much better and more involving overall story for that area.


Takes Azeroth's problems and makes them worse? That's factually untrue. Azeroth's problems are ridiculous quest chains that drag you across the world, but if you don't follow them, they go grey, zones with too few quests in by far, zones where all the quest for the zone are in another zone, zones where the mobs are higher or lower level than the quests, zones when the quests drag you senselessly back and forth through the zone, and so on.

Those are issues in Azeroth, but they weren't the problems I was referring to. My problems are that most of the Azeroth quests are just dull as dishwater and very grindy. Just like the Outlands ones, and not like the Northrend ones.

Maybe I'm pointing my finger at the wrong thing, I dunno. But I've got through it three times and each time I've found Outlands to be hell to get through, and couldn't wait to get the heck out of it. I've got about 4 characters stuck at the low 60s because I just can't face the grind to get them over the hump - but maybe now they can get mounts it'll be a lot less painful.

[Fenris]

I personally don't think Outlands is dull and painful due to the quest design though-it's dull and painful because it's...dull and painful. It doesn't look like you have a lot of disagreement about thinking Outland is just dull. I'm totally with you there, and I've been prepping my warrior with some of the really good mid 60s crafted stuff to make it so I don't have to touch a damn thing more than I have to(Ill do Ring of Blood for the Voidaxe and yeah, that's it.) Most of the quest gear is good at least(if not lousy looking), but I did the crafted gear back in the day and it served me very well.

I mean, it's designed enough where you can yoink up all the 'easy' quests(grind X, do this or that), and hell, I even thought the bombing stuff was fun(and still kinda do).

I admit pre-extra graveyard BEM was just...NGH. Who thought it was a good idea to put one GY in one of the biggest zones in Outland(if not the biggest?) That was just crappy zone design, IMO. (If there was more than once it certainly didn't feel like it.) I mostly skipped this zone for that reason-my first trip through Outland was HFP-ZM-TK-I STARTED on BEM, got disgusted quickly(did a couple of the fast questlines), and moved right onto Nagrand-NS-SMV. When I came back with my DK(at 58), I just did HFP-ZM-TK-Nagrand and scratched about 4 quests in Netherstorm and I was 70.

All that said, I DO think the quest structures are a hundred times better in Outland. Folks are right; most of the quests take place in the zone you're in, and they don't send you from the north part of one continent to the southernmost part of another-and of course, remember doing this back in the day when you had none of these great travel options.

Nowadays those crazy spread out questlines just kinda suck(not ALL Azeroth quests suck-some are as cut and dry as others-and I don't MIND epic questlines, I just think they need to be done in a more NR way), back in Vanilla they could be downright painful. Not all quests need be ''kill X'', of course not, but there should be a nice clean structure to them, IMO.

[Charles Gray]

WoW.com has something to say about this topic: (http://www.wow.com/2009/08/26/the-queue-the-twitcave/)

benfraley asked...

"Any ideas on what's going to happen to Outland and Northrend in the expansion? Will they just become ghost towns?"

The awesome "For the Horde!" kid at BlizzCon asked something like this. Essentially, will the Cataclysm have any impact on these areas. The answer was that Northrend will be impacted a little, but not quite as much as the rest of the world. The Cataclysm won't bother Outland since it's a uniquely Azerothian event, though they will comb over the Outland quests to make the leveling experience better.
That last bolding is mine, for emphasis.

That's a bit of a bummer for me-- it hurts my suspension of disbelief that everyting is the same in outland. I mean, if half of Azeroths zones are under lava, where are the reinforcements coming from for the dark portal?

[Seroster]

That's a bit of a bummer for me-- it hurts my suspension of disbelief that everyting is the same in outland. I mean, if half of Azeroths zones are under lava, where are the reinforcements coming from for the dark portal?

You just have to think of there being a past and inaccessible version of the old world, from which the reinforcements came to Outland. The version of Azeroth that will be presented in the expansion will have the timeline advanced. They're not meant to match up.

[Eurhetemec]

I don't know what quests you were doing, but IMO they're a lot more similar to Azeroth's than Northrend's. They're grindy, dull, uninteresting, and lacking much cohesion. Northrend's are massively different and much more interesting, with much more structure and interesting lore bits, and the quests in each area all together make a much better and more involving overall story for that area.

I'm doing the same ones you are. I think you're confusing "story that interests me" with "story that is cohesive" and "good quest design/flow".

Those are issues in Azeroth, but they weren't the problems I was referring to. My problems are that most of the Azeroth quests are just dull as dishwater and very grindy. Just like the Outlands ones, and not like the Northrend ones.

Maybe I'm pointing my finger at the wrong thing, I dunno. But I've got through it three times and each time I've found Outlands to be hell to get through, and couldn't wait to get the heck out of it. I've got about 4 characters stuck at the low 60s because I just can't face the grind to get them over the hump - but maybe now they can get mounts it'll be a lot less painful.

You are indeed pointing at the wrong thing. The main difference between Outlands and WotLK quests is the lore. There are many quests that are just as "grindy" as Outlands ones in WotLK (let's not even get started on the "get X amount of Y meat" quests in WotLK where there aren't even enough mobs of that type up in the general area to get all the meat without waiting on respawns), but no Outlands quest approaches some of the worst Azeroth offenders. The main improvements WotLK offers are slightly more varied quests, actual storylines (thanks to phasing, largely), and generally less travel-time. Also wildly superior music, which makes a big difference to me ;)

There are a couple of other design differences, but they're not relevant if you're levelling through Outlands, but were when you were levelling to 70 as a max level.

Still, the design alone should make it a great deal easier to get through Outlands than 48-58, unless you really REALLY hate the lore. I'm not denying that WotLK isn't better, but the big quest design leap was from Azeroth to Outlands, not from Outlands to WotLK (other designs made big leaps there, like rep grinding and Heroics).

[Vargen]

They did make one simple but significant widespread change to the quest design between Burning Crusade and Lich King: in Outland, random drop quest items were still straight random drops. In Northrend the odds increase if you go too long without getting one.

Come to think of it though, I have no idea if that change affected all such quests or just the ones in Northrend. I think it's safe to say that they'll use it the whole way through once Cataclysm hits though.

[davidb]

Leveling 1-60 in the new azeroth means you'll see the swath of destruction left by Deathwing, lingering taint of the scourge, and nastiness of old gods and naga run amok. So why send people through the portal to Outland?

My take is, it still make sense, since its an open portal to a source of the burning legion. Fight the war in outland, or risk having an unending stream of infernals and dreadlords coming through to azeroth. If no one is dealing with the burning legion, Deathwing will reign supreme...avoid a two front war at all costs, subdue your enemy.

technically its still a bit 'off' due to sequence of events story-wise, but its easy enough to justify heading to Draenor in the context of a L60 character.

[Mr. Horrible]

They did make one simple but significant widespread change to the quest design between Burning Crusade and Lich King: in Outland, random drop quest items were still straight random drops. In Northrend the odds increase if you go too long without getting one.

Really? That's cool. You don't have a source, by chance?

[Quornix]

Is the new Azeroth only going to be 1-60, then a 20 level gap, then 80-85? Or will it go 1-85? I think the latter would be the better design, especially for those of us who have run Outlands four or five times.

[Seroster]

Is the new Azeroth only going to be 1-60, then a 20 level gap, then 80-85?

I assume so. I can't see them releasing an explansion which replaces not just the original game levelling areas, but two expansions' worth of material as well.

[Apok]

Is the new Azeroth only going to be 1-60, then a 20 level gap, then 80-85? Or will it go 1-85? I think the latter would be the better design, especially for those of us who have run Outlands four or five times.

Well, Northrend is still a part of the world, so it would be 1-60, a 10-level stretch in Outland, 10 more levels in Northrend, and then back to the two main continents for the last 5 levels.

[Quornix]

I assume so. I can't see them releasing an explansion which replaces not just the original game levelling areas, but two expansions' worth of material as well.

I'm sure that around the time that Cataclysm releases, they'll start selling a battlechest that includes the base game and both old expansions for little more than the base game (if they're not doing it already -- I got a bundled BC to start playing before WotLK). 90% of new players will pick up two expansions for an extra twenty bucks, even if there's an alternate leveling path, if just for the extra features. Outland and Northrend would still be there to explore as an alternate and effective leveling path. And the price difference is just a month's subscription.

Basically, though, I think Cataclysm would make a fine point for a new "base" game, and having a leveling path from 1-85 entirely contained would make for a nice new entry-level purchase for new players.

[Vargen]

Really? That's cool. You don't have a source, by chance?

I read it in a writeup of Jeff Kaplan's recent GDC talk. (http://www.wow.com/2009/03/27/kaplan-on-being-the-cruise-director-of-azeroth-at-gdc-09/) As it turns out, I'd miss-remembered. They apparently experimented with progressive drop percentages, but then settled on just setting the number higher:

One mechanic used to solve collection quest issues is the progressive drop rate. Usually their ideal drop rate is around 35%. But that would cause problems, as players would run into streaks, both positive and negative. So they used a page from Warcraft III, where a unit that would crit would use a progressive percentage. So now, every creature drops the item, but the more a player has killed a creature type, the more likely it is that a player will get the item. So the first time you've got a 16% chance of getting the item, second time 32%, third time 42%, and then eventually up to 100% chance you'll get the item. In the beta, it got rid of the bad streaks, but it also got rid of the good streaks, so they eventually upped the "ideal" drop rate to around 42%.

[Seroster]

Basically, though, I think Cataclysm would make a fine point for a new "base" game, and having a leveling path from 1-85 entirely contained would make for a nice new entry-level purchase for new players.

Well, sure. I was thinking more along the lines of the amount of work it would take them to replace or provide equivalents to EVERYTHING from 1-85, including Outland and Northrend. If we assume that the amount of content from 60-70 and from 70-80 is each equivalent to 1-60, then it'd be three times as much work.

[Quornix]

Well, sure. I was thinking more along the lines of the amount of work it would take them to replace or provide equivalents to EVERYTHING from 1-85, including Outland and Northrend. If we assume that the amount of content from 60-70 and from 70-80 is each equivalent to 1-60, then it'd be three times as much work.

But with the lower XP requirements, you can now blow through Outlands in two or three zones, and the same will soon be true of Northrend, I presume. If they built the 60-80 zones with that rate of progression as the default assumption, they could set out four or five zones to pick up those 20 levels, theme it with Cataclysmy quests, and let folks choose. So you can either do the new zones, or you do HFP, ZM, 1/2 Nag, BT, DB, 1/2 Sholozar, hit 78, and go back and level from 78-85 in old Azeroth.

[Ikselam]

But with the lower XP requirements, you can now blow through Outlands in two or three zones

I recall hitting 70 after clearing Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh, Terokkar, and some of Nagrand and Blade's Edge.

I'm pretty sure I reached 80 without having set foot in Storm Peaks, Sholazar Basin, or Icecrown.

Of course, I also tended to do a lot more instances while levelling than will be visited by the typical solo powerleveler.

[Rupert]

I hit 80 with my main without having set foot in Borean Tundra, and having hardly touched Icecrown, and I did each instance once at level, give or take.

The alt I'm levelling now has gotten to 75th from 68th doing only BT, HF, the Wrathgate chain in Dragonblight (and nothing else there), and some Grizzly hills quests (Amberpine Lodge ones only so far). She's done The Nexus and Utgarde Keep a couple of times each. She hasn't got the Loremaster achievement for any of those zones, either. I'm pretty sure she'll make 80th from the rest of Grizzly Hills, Sholazar, and either ZD or some of Storm Peaks.

[Seroster]

As I recall, on Aylfric:

Outland: I didn't really complete BEM and I moved on to Shadowmoon Valley as soon as I hit 68, so I could start the Lohn'goron quest chain.

Northrend: I didn't do Borean Tundra or Sholazar Basin or Icecrown before hitting 80.

Borean Tundra, Howling Fjord, Hellfire Peninsula, and actually Zangarmarsh, are all starter zones, and you don't have to do all of them. *shrug*

[Killfalcon]

While leveling, I did some of Hellfire (seriously, I skipped half the zone because I got tired of red), moved on to Zanga, Nagrand (which I loved), skipped most of BEM even after I got my flyer, did some Netherstorm, then a little Shadowmoon for the tanking axe. After that, I'd hit max so tanked Kara a few times for gear and went about soloing old shit. :p

Though I did level entirely prot spec, so 90% of the time I was just doing easy quests or ones with specific gear I wanted, as anything remotely like 'hard' (y'know, 2 yellow mobs) would just be painful.