Fixing the 3.5E Fighter, the final word?

[thecasualoblivion]

Just a thought here:

If it were in any way possible to fix the 3.5E Fighter, wouldn't it have happened by now? How long have we been at this, really?

How many times does something have to be unsuccessfully tried before its time to get on with the rest of life?

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Different people have different problems, therefore the solutions are going to be different. Where everyone is screwing up is think that there's _one_ solution to all the problems. There isn't, short of rewriting the entire game; of course, that's still not a solution for everyone since lots of folks like the game as it is.

[Will]

The final word is 'parkoon.'

It's not a real word, but it'll do.

(Scurvy really covered it, so...)

[Gnomick]

If it were in any way possible to fix the 3.5E Fighter, wouldn't it have happened by now? How long have we been at this, really?
It did happen by now. WotC fixed it, and renamed it the Warblade because they thought it would go over poorly if the called it Fighter. However, everybody has different tastes so...

Different people have different problems, therefore the solutions are going to be different. Where everyone is screwing up is think that there's _one_ solution to all the problems. There isn't, short of rewriting the entire game; of course, that's still not a solution for everyone since lots of folks like the game as it is.

... that happened.

[mythSSK]

It did happen by now. WotC fixed it, and renamed it the Warblade <...>This.

[capnzapp]

WotC did fix the Fighter. You just need to upgrade editions.

[Scurvy_Platypus]

WotC did fix the Fighter. You just need to upgrade editions.

*sigh*

Welcome to my ignore list. In the past I haven't bothered telling people when they hit it or why, but I'll make an exception to my usual habit. I'm not mad, just tired. Putting you on my IL means I won't _get_ mad in the future.

That post? Completely unhelpful and serves no other purpose than to be offensive. If people haven't changed editions by now, there's a reason for it. I don't care whether it's because they're stick-in-the-muds that hate change, I don't care if it's because they've spent thousands of dollars on books that are now worthless if they "upgrade", I don't care if it's because they think the new edition is a "videogame", or the art is too [whatever]... people have a reason.

Having people such as yourself show up and go "Hurr hurr hurr, buy new game" is just annoying and pointless. If you _actually_ explained what the problem is that's being fixed and how the new edition fixes it, then I could see the point. You'd be beating your head against the wall probably, but you'd actually be trying to contribute something useful and helpful. Your post? Not helpful, other than to establish once again how you're playing the new edition and it's so much better than the old one.

You dig the new game? Groovy. I'm happy for you, really. I just am getting really weary of people showing up with the kind of comment you made.

I don't know, maybe every 4E thread talking about how to make a modification to the rules or asking for clarification to something or talking about Minions has people popping up with "Dude, should have stayed with 3.5, we don't have that problem!". I don't know because I don't frequent 4E threads, as I don't know a single person playing or running the game and therefore haven't had a reason to buy it.

The worst thing is, the OP wasn't even asking HOW to fix the fighter. No, then your comment might have been considered actually on-topic in an annoying and pointless fashion. Instead, the OP is asking why the hell people keep asking how to fix the fighter when a viable solution hasn't come up in some 8 years of this topic. To be honest, I get his point and I even kinda agree with it; if a fix hasn't happened by now, it's probably not going to. But I also understand _why_ it keeps popping up, which is why I posted my original response.

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

The problem is, the fighter really can't be fixed. Its issues are rooted in the very fundamentals of 3.X system mechanics and how spellcasters are handled. As other have noted, the warblade is the closest you get, and it does fix the problem of the fighter having virtually no fun and interesting combat options, in comparison to casters. It still falls short of the sheer versatility and potential of casters in combat, and is still even further behind (pretty much right with the fighter) in out of combat potential. Also, while its increased damage potential does start to reach into the realms of meaningful, it is still marginalized by the prevalence of caster SoD/S effects.

Fixing the fighter basically requires taking 3.X apart, and making a new game, as it involves fixing more than just the fighter itself.

[Throthvile]

I like what Pathfinder has done for the fighter. Or at least the beta playtest version. Same amount of bonus feats, after a few levels starts to get abilities that make them the best fighters. Choose a weapon group, similar to a ranger's favored enemies, and you get a scaling hit/damage bonus. Bonuses to fear saves, additional ac while wearing armor, eventual DR. Still botched the skill points and saves tho, but I only have the beta, not the final, so who knows?

Actually, I think the fighter has been done "right" many times over, just not under the name "fighter" Arcana Unearthed (not UA), Book of Nine Swords, and even the 3.5 PHB 2 have excellent fighter classes. Hell, Iron Heroes was almost nothing BUT fighters done right. Like others have said, it all depends on what you're looking for. It's just that the official PHB Fighter in 3.5 leaves a lot to be desired. The only difference between him and an npc class (warrior) is a few extra feats, and thats criminal, at least in a game about heroic power fantasy.

[Throthvile]

The problem is, the fighter really can't be fixed. Its issues are rooted in the very fundamentals of 3.X system mechanics and how spellcasters are handled. As other have noted, the warblade is the closest you get, and it does fix the problem of the fighter having virtually no fun and interesting combat options, in comparison to casters. It still falls short of the sheer versatility and potential of casters in combat, and is still even further behind (pretty much right with the fighter) in out of combat potential. Also, while its increased damage potential does start to reach into the realms of meaningful, it is still marginalized by the prevalence of caster SoD/S effects.

Fixing the fighter basically requires taking 3.X apart, and making a new game, as it involves fixing more than just the fighter itself.

Just don't let anyone level past 5 or 10 or so. Problem solved! Also, save or die can go fail its save and die in a fire.

[Renchard]

1) Use the warblade.

2) Outlaw all casters with spell levels higher than the bard.

[Christopher V. Brady]

The problem is, the fighter really can't be fixed. Its issues are rooted in the very fundamentals of 3.X system mechanics and how spellcasters are handled. As other have noted, the warblade is the closest you get, and it does fix the problem of the fighter having virtually no fun and interesting combat options, in comparison to casters. It still falls short of the sheer versatility and potential of casters in combat, and is still even further behind (pretty much right with the fighter) in out of combat potential. Also, while its increased damage potential does start to reach into the realms of meaningful, it is still marginalized by the prevalence of caster SoD/S effects.

Fixing the fighter basically requires taking 3.X apart, and making a new game, as it involves fixing more than just the fighter itself.

Pretty much this. There are several fixes required and only a couple of them actually touch the fighter in some way.


The magic system. Generally overrides most skills.
Feats. This one touches the Fighter directly, as this is supposed to be his main bag of tricks. But they don't scale.
Hit Points. The inflation rate is ridiculous.
Skills. Another one for the Fighter. He doesn't get anything that really help him out of a combat or sports situation.
Saves. Specifically, Will. Apparently, fighters are weak willed thugs with no use outside of a bar brawl.
Damage. Outside of magical toys, it doesn't scale for the Fighter. But it does with every other class, whether by spell or by class ability.
Magical Gear. This to me is one of the biggest let downs in 3.x. To be any good at his 'job' (and even then...) a Fighter needs to have the best magical toys in the business. A Fighter is the sum of all his magical toys. Take them away and he's worth less than nothing, he's an active HINDERANCE to the rest of the party.


These are all intergral to the system, and to fix the Fighter, in 3.x you need to fix all these and more. Where does it stop? Is it truly worth it?

I can't answer that for everyone, but for me? I can't do it. I don't feel like ripping out the guts of the entire system and reworking what I believe would be 90%. The remaining 10% isn't worth the hassle.

YMMV.

[Will]

Chris, what do you think of the E6 solution?

[Cortani]

Get enough sourcebooks to make combat more dynamic and interesting, min-max like a mofo, or at least adjusted to the party standard. Don't play beyond early teens. Outside of these parameters you're mostly out of luck or have a *lot* more work to do.


Damage. Outside of magical toys, it doesn't scale for the Fighter. But it does with every other class, whether by spell or by class ability.

That's wrong.


Magical Gear. This to me is one of the biggest let downs in 3.x. To be any good at his 'job' (and even then...) a Fighter needs to have the best magical toys in the business. A Fighter is the sum of all his magical toys. Take them away and he's worth less than nothing, he's an active HINDERANCE to the rest of the party.
[/LIST]

Welcome to DnD.

[Monkey King]

The fighter cannot be fixed until people can agree on what's broken about the class in the first place, or even whether or not the vast power disparity between fighters and wizards is a bug or a feature.

[Counterspin]

The fighter can't be fixed until we decide if it's broken. That sorta begs the question in a not useful way, eh?

[Christopher V. Brady]

Chris, what do you think of the E6 solution?

The big problem I have with E6 is that is doesn't fix the problem, but rather masks it by forcing a level cap at a level that keeps the real problems behind a cage.

It's like fixing a car that overheats by adding a governer, preventing it from going faster than 40MPH. Yeah, the car will go, but it'll never do Highway speeds.

[Will]

The 3.5e fighter IS fixed... for appropriate usages of the word 'fixed.'

Heh heh.

[Illithid00]

1) Use the warblade.

2) Outlaw all casters with spell levels higher than the bard.

Except by doing this, you're telling anyone who wants to play a wizard or druid to go suck it.

[Renchard]

Except by doing this, you're telling anyone who wants to play a wizard or druid to go suck it.

Yep, pretty much. But that's what house rules are for.

[soullos]

Hit Points. The inflation rate is ridiculous.

Really? I find HP to be too little at times (especially for classed NPCs). I've had on occasion increased a monster's HP to make sure it doesn't get killed in a round or 2 (save or dies are not a factor in my games, they're all banned).

[Christopher V. Brady]

Really? I find HP to be too little at times (especially for classed NPCs). I've had on occasion increased a monster's HP to make sure it doesn't get killed in a round or 2 (save or dies are not a factor in my games, they're all banned).

Either you've never played past level 10, or you've rolled exceptionally low on Monster hit dice. Or are you sticking with the smaller types like Goblins and the like?

Because 5 level 10 characters against a dragon is PAINFUL, and slow when you don't have any Save or Suck.

In my experience anyway.

[soullos]

Either you've never played past level 10, or you've rolled exceptionally low on Monster hit dice. Or are you sticking with the smaller types like Goblins and the like?

Because 5 level 10 characters against a dragon is PAINFUL, and slow when you don't have any Save or Suck.

In my experience anyway.

I've played a few games past level 10, but not much. One game I ran, I used a Giant type monster from MMIV and he had around 150hp for being CR 10 and I thought that was a respectful amount. He didn't die too fast and posed a challenge against my players.

Monsters typically have a decent chunk of HP, I've noticed. NPCs, primarily the one with a simple race with levels tacked on, have very little HP. Con score is hardly a primary stat so hp is going to be a little low. I don't want to use too many magic items to "fix" them and I don't want to rely on casters all the time for simple buffs (I find 60 hp too low for a CR 10 opponent for example). I had to cheat their ability scores to make sure they don't die in the first round, making them a useless challenge. Or sometimes I just bullshit their stats and go with it. And for rolling HP, I do averages since I do often roll low on those. :p

This is one of the reasons I don't like leveled NPCs. They die quickly and aren't worth the time and effort to stat them up fully (unless I completely BS their stats). That's why I almost always fallback on good old monsters.

As for Dragons, I never used them honestly. I'm always afraid to kill all my players, plus I have fewer than 4 players most of the time and with Dragons CR artificially low, I'm not sure how that will pan out.

[Gnomick]

Except by doing this, you're telling anyone who wants to play a wizard or druid to go suck it.

If I ever run a 3.5 game again*, I'll allow players to be Druids if they take the Bard spell slot progression and use the PHBII alternate wildshape. And that still leaves it a strong class.

Is there any debate that the bard was overpowered? 3/4 BAB, two good saves, 4 skill points per level, can turn into a vicious animal, and gets a vicious animal following it everywhere. That would be a decent class without any spellcasting. Give it 9th level spells and it's like playing a gestalt Monk/Wizard without having to bug your DM to use the gestalt rules.

*I don't hate 3.5, I just hate DMing it. I'd jump at the chance to play a Binder or Psychic Warrior or Crusader again.

[Bradford C. Walker]

The regulars at The Gaming Den got the job done, and it's up at the D&D Wiki under "Tome Classes".

[Antariuk]

Its been said already, the question depends on what you think is the problem with the fighter (or 3.5 mechanics). And I agree that if you dig through all the supplements, WotC and 3rd party, there are several fixes for the fighter or even complete replacements.

I doubt there is such thing as a mathematical balance between magic and melee or physical weapons in terms of damage and versatility, at least not in D&D 3.5+


[...]

Is there any debate that the bard was overpowered? 3/4 BAB, two good saves, 4 skill points per level, can turn into a vicious animal, and gets a vicious animal following it everywhere. That would be a decent class without any spellcasting. Give it 9th level spells and it's like playing a gestalt Monk/Wizard without having to bug your DM to use the gestalt rules.


Actually the bard gets 6 skillpoints per level, so its even better. Fix teh Bard!!11


The regulars at The Gaming Den got the job done, and it's up at the D&D Wiki under "Tome Classes".

I've seen this a while ago, but I only took a glimpse. Is it really that good? (sell me! :))

[PaladinCA]

What would happen if you used Iron Heroes for the melee classes and 3.5 for the spellchuckers? Has anyone done this madness? :cool:

[Christopher V. Brady]

What would happen if you used Iron Heroes for the melee classes and 3.5 for the spellchuckers? Has anyone done this madness? :cool:

Magic becomes even more powerful as the IH classes have no defense against it. Except the Barbarian, and itt changes the dynamic as well. Armour is DR, where in normal D&D it's a Dodge value. So you'll have to pick one aspect there.

[PaladinCA]

Magic becomes even more powerful as the IH classes have no defense against it. Except the Barbarian, and itt changes the dynamic as well. Armour is DR, where in normal D&D it's a Dodge value. So you'll have to pick one aspect there.

Maybe one could add a magic defense rating or something that increased in levels similar to Saga Edition defenses. Just pondering the possibilities...

[Christopher V. Brady]

Maybe one could add a magic defense rating or something that increased in levels similar to Saga Edition defenses. Just pondering the possibilities...

Well, I'm not sure if any of the newer printings, but you'd have to fix a lott of the feats (There borked speed bumps in there) also, some of the classes need more lovin'. It's a rush job and it shows.

[Bradford C. Walker]

I've seen this a while ago, but I only took a glimpse. Is it really that good? (sell me! :))
The two guys that did the work are hardcore theorycrafters. They're also quite sympathetic to the known issues of v3.X, and their takes have in mind attempts to resolve those issues. The result is a Fighter class (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter_%283.5e_Class%29) that holds up in high-level play against primary spell-casters. It's better than any other attempt to date, and it's colored my own thinking on the matter.

[Silent Wayfarer]

The two guys that did the work are hardcore theorycrafters. They're also quite sympathetic to the known issues of v3.X, and their takes have in mind attempts to resolve those issues. The result is a Fighter class (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter_%283.5e_Class%29) that holds up in high-level play against primary spell-casters. It's better than any other attempt to date, and it's colored my own thinking on the matter.

I have a lot of respect for Frank and K's stuff, particularly the theory informing their decisions. Is there a central repository for their works?

[Bradford C. Walker]

I have a lot of respect for Frank and K's stuff, particularly the theory informing their decisions. Is there a central repository for their works?

Not yet. The D&D Wiki has some of it. There are links at The Gaming Den to threads that have others.

[hackmastergeneral]

I took the fix Bradford Posted, and I made some alterations to it to suit my style and my players. It was excellent work, and it really inspired some ideas I've had kicking around in my head for fighters.

So, I post my ideas here. The alterations I have made I have bolded.

Rationale: Fighters should be, before any other bonuses or class abilities are taken into account, the best class with any weapon they pick up, and operate better in armor than anyone else. Barbarians have Rage, Rogues have sneak attack, Rangers have Favored Enemy, Paladins have Smite. Fighters have, well, nothing. They get more feats, but that's not really much. By the time it matters and makes a difference, everyone else has a neat bag of tricks to play with, and more options.

Notice the slight change on full attack progression. Any class that gains a 4th attack on a full round attack like that gets the same thing. Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Monks.

Basically, I didn't like the full attack progression. The final 2 attacks get the same bonuses, so at level 16 its 20/15/10/10.

I also changes skills in my group, so everyone picks their class skills. Count how many class skills your class normally gets, now just pick for yourself which skills are "trained".

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. Fighters are proficient with light,medium, and heavy armor, and with shields and great shields.

Weapons Training (Ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and using a new weapon is easy and fun. By practicing with a weapon he is not proficient with for a day, a Fighter may permanently gain proficiency with that weapon by succeeding at an Intelligence check DC 10 (you may not take 10 on this check). For fighters, using a Bastard Sword one-handed is no longer an exotic weapon. They can do either or, regardless.

Fighters also gain Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapons Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization with one weapon for free on levels they would qualify for them. Any other weapons must be chosen with bonus feats.

Combat Focus (Ex): A fighter is at his best when the chips are down and everything is going to Baator in a handbasket. When the world is on fire, a fighter keeps his head better than anyone. If the fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a swift action to gain Combat Focus, A Fighter may end his Combat Focus at any time to reroll any die roll he makes, and if not used it ends on its own after a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus.

Bonus Feat: The Fighters gets a bonus feat every even-numbered class level, unless otherwise indicated. I will loosely be applying the "fighter bonus feat" restrictions. If you can think of a feat that's not in the feat list, but there is a rationale for why you should know it, ask me. I may not agree, but I will give it some thought.

Pack Mule (Ex): Fighters are used to long journeys with a heavy pack and the use of a wide variety of weaponry and equipment. A 3rd level Fighter suffers no penalties for carrying a medium load, and may retrieve stored items from his person without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Problem Solver (Ex):A Fighter of 3rd level can draw upon his intense and diverse training to respond to almost any situation. Once per encounter, a fighter may chose one of the following feats, and expend a swift action to gain its effects for the remainder of that encounter as if he met all prerequisites. You may use this ability once per day. At every level you gain a bonus feat, you gain one additional use per day. When you gain additional uses per day, you may chose to activate this ability multiple times in one encounter, to gain use of different feats. At 4th level, you could activate Improved Feint one round and then Improved Trip the next. That expends all your daily uses of the ability.

Improved Feint, Improved or Ranged Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved or Ranged Sunder, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ranged Pin. I wanted this more spelled out so players wouldn't get overwhelmed trying to think of how to enact it, plus I'm not using the 3rd party/houserule books in question, so I just have it more spelled out. I really like this ability, and hope it gets fighters thinking more "outside the box" on how to approach encounters than just "charge and attack".

Weapons Superiority (Ex): at 5th level, a fighter choses a Weapon he has Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for. Your damage with that weapon goes up one die (d4 becomes d6, d10 becomes d12, d12 becomes 2d8, etc). You may also increase it’s crit range by +1 – this will stack with the bonus from Keen or Improved Critical., but it is applied AFTER the doubling effect happens. Thus a longsword (19-20) with Keen and this ability would have a 16-20 crit range, not 15-20. He may then select this ability again as a bonus feat to apply it to any other weapons he has WF/WS for, or to increase the damage threshold of his weapon once again. However, the bonus to crit range on his weapon only applies the first time he gains this ability - it does not go up if you take this as a feat again later.

At 10th level, You may choose Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery for free. (phb2)

At 15th level, you may choose Crushing Strike, Driving Attack, Slashing Flurry or Penetrating Shot for free.

At 20th Level you may take Weapon Supremacy for free. If you have chosen ranged feats to this point, you may now choose to take a bonus feat that applies to ranged attacks instead.

Active Assault (Ex):A 5th level Fighter can flawlessly place himself where he is most needed in combat. He may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action. This is in addition to any other movement he takes during his turn, even another 5 foot step.

Armor Expertise (Ex): A 7th level Fighter may take a further -2 bonus to his AC and charge using his full movement without armor penalty. A fighter may now eliminate all armor check penalties for light armor, reduce ACP for medium armor by 1, and heavy armor by 2.

At 14th level, a fighter may choose one of the following sets of abilities, based on what type of armor he commonly wears:

No/ Light armor: Gain +10 ft of base movement, +10 competence bonus to Move Silently , 25% concealment for ranged attacks.

Medium: Gain +5 feet of base movement, the ability to take a 5 ft step if you have up to ½ movement speed regardless of terrain and 50% critical hit protection (like fortification)

Heavy: +5 feet of base movement, and Damage Reduction ½ BAB/ - , SR = 10+ ½ BAB

Improved Delay (Ex): A Fighter of 7th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, a Fighter may interrupt another action with his delayed action like it was a readied action (though he does not have to announce his intentions before hand).

Foil Action (Ex):: A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking. The Fighter may throw sand into a beholder's eye, bat aside a key spell component, or strike a weapon hand with a thrown object, but the result is the same: the opponent's action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. A Fighter must be within 15 feet of his opponent to use this ability, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack. Using Foil Action is an Immediate action. A Fighter may not wait until an action is partially completed before deciding to attempt to foil the action, but must instead attempt to foil an action as it is declared. Note that this means that a Fighter may not foil a Full Attack (because it is not declared until after it has already begun), nor may he foil a move or charge action that began out of range. He can do this once per encounter. This ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Listen or Spot checks may be required to use this, depending on circumstances, and the character must obviously have line of sight, or be able to see the opponent in question. Knowledge or Spellcraft rolls may be used to help determine the type of action being taken before chosing to use the ability (if a fighter has ranks in Spellcraft, he may make a roll to try and identify the spell being cast to determine if he wishes to disrupt it or not. A Knowledge roll for monsters may also help reveal or indicate the type of attack/ability the monster is attempting. This ability is subject to DM interpretation or decision. Certain actions may not be discernable.

At 17th level, Foil Action may be used at up to 30 feet, and use it twice per encounter.
I felt this was TOO powerful. Having the player able to disrupt one spell per round, one action per round, was just too much. But I still liked it. So I turned it into an "encounter power", and gave the fighter the ability to cherry-pick his moment better. Since there are no "class skills" any more, dumping some ranks into Knowledges or Spellcraft isn't outside the realm. Plus it didn't indicate if this provokes AoOs, so I made sure I spelled that out to (it doesn't, in my mind).

Lunging Attacks (Ex): The battlefield is an extremely dangerous place, and 11th level Fighters are expected to hold off Elder Elementals, Hezrous, and Hamatulas. Fighters of this level may add 5 feet to the reach of any of their weapons, or 10 feet to the range increment. Some choose to build ranged fighters, and I wanted to give them bennies too.

Array of Stunts (Ex): A 13th level Fighter may take one extra Immediate Action between his turns without sacrificing a Swift action during his next turn.

Greater Combat Focus (Ex): At 15th level, a Fighter may voluntarily expend his Combat Focus as a swift action to suppress any status effect or ongoing spell effect on himself for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier +1. Doing so gives him a -4 to his AC and -2 to Will saves due to the intense concentration he must use to shrug off the effects. (You cannot use Combat Focus at the same time you are supressing an effect). Just knocking down the power of this ability a notch.

Intense Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may take an extra Swift Action each round (in addition to the extra Immediate Action he can take from Array of Stunts).

Supreme Combat Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to take 20 on any die roll. He must elect to use Supreme Combat Focus before rolling the die.

Thoughts?

[ArcTan]

The only reason there is no "viable" solution is that it's hard to define what it means to "fix" the 3e Fighter.

There are *tons* of viable solutions, including one very viable one in D&D 3.5 itself, the Warblade from Tome of Battle. The problem is that these "fixed" Fighters get rejected by various parts of the community who decide that if it's too different from the Fighter as originally written then it's not "really" the 3.5 Fighter and therefore not a "real" solution.

When you phrase the problem this way -- "Can you fix all the problems with this thing without changing it too much so that people don't think it 'feels' the same anymore?" -- you see why it's so intractable. The question of whether something has been changed "too much" is inherently subjective and there's always going to be someone who thinks whatever change you propose goes "too far", especially when people don't agree on what needs to be "fixed" in the first place.

The discussion is doomed from the get-go thanks to there being a large swathe of people who think *nothing* about the 3.5 Fighter needs to be fixed at all because the various things people see as problems are "part of the feel of the class".

[Sangrolu]

Just a thought here:

If it were in any way possible to fix the 3.5E Fighter, wouldn't it have happened by now? How long have we been at this, really?

How many times does something have to be unsuccessfully tried before its time to get on with the rest of life?

The real question is if there was any way to satisfy some people, wouldn't it have happened by now? :cool:

[Wields-Rulebook-Heavily]

The real question is if there was any way to satisfy some people, wouldn't it have happened by now? :cool:

It has happened. It just doesn't satisfy everyone.

Good ol' weeabo fightan magic. That book was great.

[Ferrus Animus]

I haven't read the thread, so maybe it has already been said.

But a possible fix:
Non-casters get the UA Action Points, just per session instead of per level.
Half casters get half of them and full-casters get none.
In addition the Eberron AP-feats can be taken.

[Fifth Element]

In my last 3.5 campaign, I made only three changes to the fighter to address the balance issue, and it seemed to work out well without adding additional complexity to the class.

1. All good saves (like the monk).
2. 4 skill points per level.
3. +1 damage bonus at 1st level, additional +1 on any level where a bonus feat is not gained (odd levels). This bonus applies to all physical attacks.

You really notice the damage bonus at higher levels with iterative attacks. It tries to ensure the fighter hits harder than any other melee class.

[Vulcan's Wrath]

I find this discussion... fascinating.

In the games I have run, fighters generally run away with things. Nearly the best damage per round, highest AC, decent saves, and enough raw HP to survive nearly any save they fail. By and large, fighters are the favoreed class in my games.

Power attack scales up very nicely, and any fighter worth his armor should strongly consider this one early.

Magical toys do go a long way to balancing fighers against spellcasters. And the two things that help fighters the most? Items that increase Will saves (Dominate and Charm can be a bitch) and items that improve mobility. In one game, I had a villian using a sword that allowed the wielder to exchange his first attack (out of a full attack action) as a Dimension Door to get around the battlefield. Boy, was that a mistake, because once the players got a hold of that, the tin cans used the hell out of it. :o

But still, I've seen tin can fighters wade through 2-3 rounds of spellcasting to get to a wizard... and then cut him into hamburger in a single pass. :cool:

Druids, I agree, are totaly broken. Good base attack and saves, animal followers, 9 levels of spells every bit as nasty as the wizards plus healing, and wild shape? Good god, man, what do you need the rest of the party for?

And don't get me started about the Arcane Heirophant (Druid/Wizard gesalt prestige class). A hasted Dire Tiger with Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, whatever the CON-boosting one is, Bite of the Wearbear and Greater Magic Fang outperforms the fighter every time. It gets worse with Power Attack. :eek:

And that's before including the small zoo of animal companions...

[Christopher V. Brady]

But still, I've seen tin can fighters wade through 2-3 rounds of spellcasting to get to a wizard... and then cut him into hamburger in a single pass. :cool:


This tells me your wizards are idiots. Fly can put a Wizard out of reach of a Melee Fighter and a bow can't really hit something as high as you can reach with it. And most Long Range Spells go farther than a bow without the range penalties to worry about. Also Will based spells will EAT a Fighter for breakfast, because his Will save doesn't scale as fast as the save DC's required.

Second, of course Power Attack is a sweet feat, it works with anything. Including Sneak Attack. And PA is the ONLY feat that truly scales, but then that does lock your fighter down to heavy damage. Which is easily beaten by a few Save or Die/Suck spells. Why bother with damage when you can remove the target in a single spell? However, if you want to do some REAL damage go Rogue and take PA (A str of 13 isn't that hard to do) and watch the giblets fly.

What you're telling me is that your crew doesn't know how to use the system as written.

Come back when you have.

[hackmastergeneral]

This tells me your wizards are idiots. Fly can put a Wizard out of reach of a Melee Fighter and a bow can't really hit something as high as you can reach with it. And most Long Range Spells go farther than a bow without the range penalties to worry about. Also Will based spells will EAT a Fighter for breakfast, because his Will save doesn't scale as fast as the save DC's required.

Second, of course Power Attack is a sweet feat, it works with anything. Including Sneak Attack. And PA is the ONLY feat that truly scales, but then that does lock your fighter down to heavy damage. Which is easily beaten by a few Save or Die/Suck spells. Why bother with damage when you can remove the target in a single spell? However, if you want to do some REAL damage go Rogue and take PA (A str of 13 isn't that hard to do) and watch the giblets fly.

What you're telling me is that your crew doesn't know how to use the system as written.

Come back when you have.

Considering a Fighter doesn't fight said Wizard by himself, and has a party to back him up:

-counterspell the Fly spell. Or dispel it.
-ring of flying, or some other variety of fly - Mass Fly works nicely.
-Druid changes into a flying creature, flys him up there, and he grapples the wizard in mid-air

There are LOTS of ways a fighter can get to said wizard, or the party helps him.

Save or suck spells are beaten by a variety of different means a Fighter has at his disposal - PCs will ALWAYS have better magic items than the NPCs, and there are many long duration spells that can buff/protect a fighter from a lot of those save or suck spells that are SOP for druids/clerics/wizards to cast. Beyond that, if you save the spell, it's wasted. Luckily for you, the fighter has been doing useful things to get at the wizard in the mean time.
Plus, unless you goosh out your NPCs to be prepped for the PCs special, they will always have utilitarian spells memorized as well - non-combat spells. Because it's stupid to have every spell slot for a caster NPC taken up by PC-raping spells. Especially if the caster didn't know they would be fighting that day.

Rogues are great with PA, but on the other hand, they don't get full attack progression, so their BAB is always going to lag behind the Fighter. Fighter will always have the best weapon, and the bonus feats have equal ways of amping up the damage as well. SA is dependant on crit-able beasts, of which there are less and less as you increase in levels. SA is also dependant on being able to SA said creature.

I always love it when there is snarky condescension, especially when it is easily disproven.

I have played 3ed/3.5 since it came out, twice a week. My fighter fix there wasn't because I feel the fighter is useless, but mostly because it is BORING, and just seems to be a thrown together class that lacks the sheer cool other later classes have. It looks like zero thought was put into it.

I have played this game every way possible, with some of the toughest DMs I know, and I have never seen a fighter not able to do anything. I've seen more places where wizards sucked from high saves, SR and magic immunity/magic fucking than I've seen fighters - because they are so damned VERSATILE.

Now, they ARE dependant on external forces to be good - fellow party members, magic items, PrCs, etc. But unless you play with dicks, theres a reason the party works together. But when a Fighter is able to rock out it's best shit, it can be ungodly. In a good players hands, a Fighter can be well done.

[Phantasm]

This tells me your wizards are idiots. Fly can put a Wizard out of reach of a Melee Fighter and a bow can't really hit something as high as you can reach with it. And most Long Range Spells go farther than a bow without the range penalties to worry about. Also Will based spells will EAT a Fighter for breakfast, because his Will save doesn't scale as fast as the save DC's required.

Second, of course Power Attack is a sweet feat, it works with anything. Including Sneak Attack. And PA is the ONLY feat that truly scales, but then that does lock your fighter down to heavy damage. Which is easily beaten by a few Save or Die/Suck spells. Why bother with damage when you can remove the target in a single spell? However, if you want to do some REAL damage go Rogue and take PA (A str of 13 isn't that hard to do) and watch the giblets fly.

What you're telling me is that your crew doesn't know how to use the system as written.

Come back when you have.

or it means the wizards are being properly locked down by the other wizards in the party, allowing the fighter to get in close and beat the crap out of the wizard. also, i cant think of many off the top of my head, but aside from the almighty Wish/miracle spells, which of the save or die spells are long range?

ive seen the fighter dish out some rather serious amounts of damage myself, and cringed seeing the wizard-killing build a friend of mine had put together. nasty piece of work. also, IMC, will based saves really dont smack down the fighter that hard, especially after the fighter has gotten his hands on the appropriate save boosting item. (cloak/vest of resistance)

[Christopher V. Brady]

So what you're saying Hackmaster is that with the help of the entire Party a SINGLE fighter can match up with a SINGLE enemy Wizard-type?

Gotcha.

[Bradford C. Walker]

The Fighter can't stand alone and get the job done. The Cleric, Druid and Wizard can. (Hell, on a good day the Bard can.) That's the problem in need of a solution.

[Flawless Glory of Silence]

The problem isn't that the fighter can't do stuff.

The problems are 1) other classes get to do stuff that far outstrip the fighter in overall versatility and impact, 2) those classes can use said potential to do pretty much the exact same stuff the fighter is supposed to be doing, and 3) the fighter has no corresponding to ability to do so in return.

[Vulcan's Wrath]

This tells me your wizards are idiots.

Knock it off with the insults. I don't like being insulted, and I don't like people insulting my players. :mad: Do it again and I will report you.

Fly can put a Wizard out of reach of a Melee Fighter

And magic items can make a fighter fly just as easily. Or they could take Leadership and get a flying mount.

and a bow can't really hit something as high as you can reach with it. And most Long Range Spells go farther than a bow without the range penalties to worry about.

That's... pretty darn far. A fair GM would be forcing Spot checks for you to even see a target at that range (and remember the -1 per 10' penalty. Sure, the diff is what, -10? Enough altitude to take that bow out of range also makes that spot roll pretty dicey, especially since Spot isn't a class skill for Wizards or sorcerers. That also presumes the fighter is dumb enough to stay out in the open where he can be (relatively) easily seen.

Also Will based spells will EAT a Fighter for breakfast, because his Will save doesn't scale as fast as the save DC's required.

This is your best argument. Not every Wizard specializes in Will save spells, or even tries to. Besides, there are items that can defeat that as well. Items that boost WIS, Will saves, or just plain block mental influence - or grant SR - all exist in the book. A smart fighter uses as many of them as he can.

Second, of course Power Attack is a sweet feat, it works with anything. Including Sneak Attack. And PA is the ONLY feat that truly scales, but then that does lock your fighter down to heavy damage. Which is easily beaten by a few Save or Die/Suck spells. Why bother with damage when you can remove the target in a single spell? However, if you want to do some REAL damage go Rogue and take PA (A str of 13 isn't that hard to do) and watch the giblets fly.

Throw a golem against that Rogue and see what happens. Or Undead. When Sneak Attack goes bye-bye, so does much of the rogue's combat usefulness.

What you're telling me is that your crew doesn't know how to use the system as written.

Or that the GM (me) hates Save or Suck spells because... well, I've been the recipient of them and it does, indeed, SUCK!

But if you want to agrue that my crew can't use the system as written, bear in mind that the Arcane Heirphant I mentioned earlier existed in one of my games. That really makes me doubt the validity of your analysis.

Come back when you have.[/QUOTE]

[Vulcan's Wrath]

The problem isn't that the fighter can't do stuff.

The problems are 1) other classes get to do stuff that far outstrip the fighter in overall versatility and impact, 2) those classes can use said potential to do pretty much the exact same stuff the fighter is supposed to be doing, and 3) the fighter has no corresponding to ability to do so in return.

Okay. THIS analysis I can agree with.

[Antariuk]

This tells me your wizards are idiots. [...]

What you're telling me is that your crew doesn't know how to use the system as written.

Come back when you have.

Are you serious? :eek:
I imagine this happens when you see pure core rule mechanics and nothing else... there is an endless amount of reasons why a wizard can got beaten by the fighter - new and inexperienced players (from a powergamer's view), players that select spells not by sheer power but by flavor or their character's traits, cursed items, diseases or other limits on the character's abilities, antimagic fields, special equipment on the fighter, and much much more.

There is no need to insult other people for having badwrongfun, especially in 3.x.



The problem isn't that the fighter can't do stuff.

The problems are 1) other classes get to do stuff that far outstrip the fighter in overall versatility and impact, 2) those classes can use said potential to do pretty much the exact same stuff the fighter is supposed to be doing, and 3) the fighter has no corresponding to ability to do so in return.

Good one!
This sums up my own experiences with fighters in 3.5 pretty much. One of my best friends played a dwarven fighter and (as he told me afterwards) alsways felt left behind by my bard or or druid - not that he complained about doing lesser damage, that never really happened in our round. But there were so few situations his character could contribute in any way outside sheer melee combat.

[hackmastergeneral]

The problem isn't that the fighter can't do stuff.

The problems are 1) other classes get to do stuff that far outstrip the fighter in overall versatility and impact,
Fighters do not get "cool shit". Its a MAJOR oversight, It looks like they seriously gave zero thought to the fighter.

2) those classes can use said potential to do pretty much the exact same stuff the fighter is supposed to be doing,

Kinda. A barbarian has rage, but one simple 2nd level spell, Calm Emotions knocks that in the dirt. Barbarians basically do the Fighters shtick and do it better, somewhat. Rage and better Hit Die. But Barbarian PrCs are all about "raaaaargh go kill now" whereas many Fighter PrCs are about protecting. Fighters get some kickass PrCs that do neat shit. As is, noone would play a level 20 Fighter straight up - but that get the ability to qualify for some cool-ass PrCs easier than others, and that goes a long way.

If you mean Clerics and Wizards - no, they don't. They CAN, but doing so pretty much blows their spell-casting wad in one go at all but the highest levels, and even then, their treasure finds need to be split amongst improving other abilities than ass-kicking - better save DCs, other non-combat abilities, better spell-casting. Fighters are totally focused on ass-kicking. Even a juiced out Cleric still has fewer HP than the fighter, and will never have as good armor or as good a weapon as the fighter. I have seen this argued time and again, but I have never seen an instance in ACTUAL PLAY in almost 10 years of twice weekly gaming where the Cleric is better off not healing in combat, or not helping buff/debuff or neutralize the other clerics/spellcasters. It takes so long, sucks up so many spell slots, and at early levels, by the time they've blasted their buffs the combat is over. Add to the fact clerics can't just rememorize spells at the drop of a hat (only happens once per day at a predetermined time) and if you blow your wad early you're stuck with low-spell juice. Ditto Wizard.

Again, you have to memorize so many utilitarian spells, that trying to rock out damage takes a back seat sometimes.

A cleric trying to keep up with the meleeists by using spells is a donkey. They get it for free, and don't gimp the party by blowing all their spells in two or three combats. Wands and scrolls only partly solve the problem, because you can't metamagic wands and scrolls without special feats, and unless you pay through the nose to get them specially crafted, they are always going to be lowest level possible to craft. And special crafting takes a SHITLOAD of time. And money.

Most of this, in my experience, is a theoretical exercise online, and most of the people I play with, have played with, and talk to about playing agree. CoDzilla and Wizard domination are, in theory, the biggest thing ever, but actual play doesn't always bear it out. Oh sue, there are sessions, sometimes whole adventures, where it does. But on the mean, it's not as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be. Fighters and other meleeists do their thing, round in, round out, and don't have to expend resources to do it (other than Barbarians and Paladins). They are always able to do it, and always ready to do it at the drop of a hat. Wizards, Clerics, Druids and other spellcasters are more easily nerfed and more easily caught with their proverbial pants down.

and 3) the fighter has no corresponding to ability to do so in return.

That is a problem I have - it's why I liked the 4ed Fighter so much. The "tank" abilities help them keep the others off the casters and weaker party members. Fighters need something like that.
Also, unless you don't count "sucking up attacks so you can cast" as "not giving back". :)

[hackmastergeneral]

So what you're saying Hackmaster is that with the help of the entire Party a SINGLE fighter can match up with a SINGLE enemy Wizard-type?

Gotcha.

No. Magic Items do the same thing. My point was unless you game with dicks, the rest of the party is going to be helping out, or at least doing "mass" buffs, many of which help the Fighter overcome the problems you mention.

I agree, short of melee damage there's very little a Fighter gives back. His feats make up for it, but there are so many "given" feats (power attack, cleave, weapon focus/spec) that should be hardwired into the class you don't get the Trip/Disarm/Feint/Sunder as much, which WOULD give back to the party.

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen "Wizard casts - makes save nothing happens. Cleric casts self-buff. Rogue maneuvers around - SA - big damage. Fighter crits, hits, hits, hits. Rolls damage - thing dies."

Druid is a different beast altogether. The ability to change into anything at all is pretty powerful, yeah. Their spell list is pretty buff-tacular.

Also saying being an insulting ass wasn't really called for in this instance.