The Swarm Druid is About Turning into Bugs

[Caduceus]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090928

and I think I like it. It really punches up the controllery side of the beast form with that at-will. I say good.

[Jools]

I hope the book balances out the Humanoid form. Right now its all about the beast form.

[Lord Shark]

I haven't been very interested in druids in the past ... but as a Malazan fanboy, I'm definitely intrigued by the chance to finally play a D'ivers.

[braincraft]

Beastform needed some love anyway.

[Dormammu]

Druids are Lamias!

[David J Prokopetz]

Beastform needed some love anyway.I find that I'm appreciating 4E's effect-based design in cases like this. You don't need to actually take the Primal Swarm trait to have swarm-type beast form at-wills, so you can just be a big hairy monster that pukes locusts if you want.

[Omegatron]

Shino Approves!!

http://www.blackcerenity.com/pics/shino.jpg

[braincraft]

I find that I'm appreciating 4E's effect-based design in cases like this. You don't need to actually take the Primal Swarm trait to have swarm-type beast form at-wills, so you can just be a big hairy monster that pukes locusts if you want.

"Oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? Release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?"

[eltommo!]

Correction: Thread title should read "The Swarm Druid is About Turning into AWESOME."

[Juriel]

I like this, since it's easy to re-skin it into 'turning into a flock of bats, then reforming', or even turning into mist.

I do still think Druids are weird in only having half their class powers available to them at any time, and beastform being completely incompatible with every other class, even if it was just about striking people with your paw harder... Which seems contrary to the whole 4e spirit, but eh.

[Mostlyjoe]

Damn. I was thinking Shino as well.

[Excellence]

Yeah, those previewed human-form dailies are totally shino's thing.

Damn... I never liked druids before, and now I want to play an Aburame style "swarm host"...

[sugarman]

Looks like I can dust off some of the old SR Universal Brotherhood material and totally go to town. Epic.

--sugarman--

[CelticMutt]

I hope the book balances out the Humanoid form. Right now its all about the beast form.

Beastform needed some love anyway.

lol

[HeridFel]

The one thing that disappoints me about a swarm druid is that resist X against melee and ranged attacks, only in beast form, needs to scale faster than an attribute alone in order to provide decent defenses. The primal guardian is just safer to play - you're trading ~3-5 AC for resist 3-8 against melee and ranged attacks, beast form only.

I am glad that the swarm powers seem to work nearly as well for other druids, and hope that they'll work for predator druids almost as well as guardian druids.

[Mostlyjoe]

The one thing that disappoints me about a swarm druid is that resist X against melee and ranged attacks, only in beast form, needs to scale faster than an attribute alone in order to provide decent defenses. The primal guardian is just safer to play - you're trading ~3-5 AC for resist 3-8 against melee and ranged attacks, beast form only.

I am glad that the swarm powers seem to work nearly as well for other druids, and hope that they'll work for predator druids almost as well as guardian druids.

Keep in mind it makes you very resistant vs ongoing damage. And if your playing a medium range controller who has to deal with longer range controller types. It helps.

[Vargo Teras]

I like this, since it's easy to re-skin it into 'turning into a flock of bats, then reforming', or even turning into mist.

I do still think Druids are weird in only having half their class powers available to them at any time, and beastform being completely incompatible with every other class, even if it was just about striking people with your paw harder... Which seems contrary to the whole 4e spirit, but eh.
It's no weirder than a ranger who can't use his longsword with a ranged-weapon power, and has to spend a minor action to pull out his longbow (which is incompatible with melee attacks).

Keep in mind it makes you very resistant vs ongoing damage.
No, it doesn't. It reduces damage taken from ranged and melee, not from all sources; ongoing damage is not a ranged or melee attack. It's still pretty solid; a starting character takes one-quarter the damage from minions, and they're going to be leaping into the middle of minion swarms often enough for that to be a major point. Also, as far as scaling goes: ten gets you one there's a paragon-tier feat to boost the damage reduction.

[Engilbrand]

I'm probably going to create a Warforged Companion for a bit for the next game. She'll have a few of the Swarm Druid powers. I envision her breaking into automata and other constructs, leaving little more than a standing skeleton. That's assuming that the "Druid" doesn't completely turn into the Swarm.
I like this idea for a PC. I also like the idea of having it multiclass with the Artificer for some extra construct-goodness. The automata that make up the Warforged's body would change as necessary.
Ignore any connection to Transformers. That's not where I'm going with this.

[Mostlyjoe]

It reduces damage taken from ranged and melee, not from all sources; ongoing damage is not a ranged or melee attack. It's still pretty solid; a starting character takes one-quarter the damage from minions, and they're going to be leaping into the middle of minion swarms often enough for that to be a major point. Also, as far as scaling goes: ten gets you one there's a paragon-tier feat to boost the damage reduction.

Hmmm. Sorry, I didn't notice the Ranged/Melee only. So area will still get you too. So the inverse happens, it's a controller that is weak vs. other controllers.

[KingDobbs]

"Oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? Release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?"

"Release the robotic Richard Simmons..."

Yes, he multiclassed into Artificer.

[Elazair]

Is it just me, or is that At-Will power freaking amazing? You've got to watch for allies getting caught in it, but otherwise... hot damn.

[David J Prokopetz]

Is it just me, or is that At-Will power freaking amazing? You've got to watch for allies getting caught in it, but otherwise... hot damn.We still have to see the rest of the swarm powers, of course, but it strikes me that - with a bit of reskinning - this sort of thing could let you take a decent shot at building Arakune from BlazBlue.

[jsb]

Hmmm. Sorry, I didn't notice the Ranged/Melee only. So area will still get you too. So the inverse happens, it's a controller that is weak vs. other controllers.This is less a big deal than it seems - close and area attacks are mostly against NADs, so the swarm druid isn't any worse off than most other classes in that respect. He'll have two good NADs - fort and will - and one bad - ref. The damage resistance is to make up for his low AC, since he wears light armor and doesn't have Dex or Int as a primary or secondary stat.

I like this, since it's easy to re-skin it into 'turning into a flock of bats, then reforming', or even turning into mist.

I do still think Druids are weird in only having half their class powers available to them at any time, and beastform being completely incompatible with every other class, even if it was just about striking people with your paw harder... Which seems contrary to the whole 4e spirit, but eh.I played a 4th-level druid in a one-shot, and didn't really have a problem with this. Wild Shape is a minor action, so it's easy to move back and forth between forms each round based on need. Turning from beast into humanoid even gets you a free shift. There are only a couple of druid abilities that have sustain minor in heroic tier, so usually, you'll have an action available. And in paragon, you get a feat that lets you shift as a free action.

[Web Warlock]

See, this is the opposite of what I think a druid should be and do.

Not that this isn't cool (it is), it just doesn't say "Druid" to me.

I rather see something more along the lines of a nature preist-like figure that can call down the wrath of nature and perform magic by casting runes on to stones.

Tim

[Inyssius]

Well, you've... already kind of got that. So, um, good for you.

And now I can play as a dissident member of the Children of Winter in my next Eberron game.

[Caduceus]

Is it just me, or is that At-Will power freaking amazing? You've got to watch for allies getting caught in it, but otherwise... hot damn.

You'd be a rogue's best friend! The zone only affects enemies (the initial attack affects all creatures), so not too bad.

[Tokezo Tenken]

See, this is the opposite of what I think a druid should be and do.

Not that this isn't cool (it is), it just doesn't say "Druid" to me.

I rather see something more along the lines of a nature preist-like figure that can call down the wrath of nature and perform magic by casting runes on to stones.

Tim
Aren't those called Shamans now?

[Beckett]

Is it just me, or is that At-Will power freaking amazing? You've got to watch for allies getting caught in it, but otherwise... hot damn.

Yeah. I can't think of many previews that have sold me as solidly on a class as this one. It looks like there will be many close attacks, so watch out for your allies, but you're not going to have a lot of problems with concealment.

I admit I was biased toward the swarm druid going in. One of my unfulfilled character ideas in 3E was a druid who wildshaped into a murder of crows. Ever since, I've wanted a druid who could turn into a group.

[EsperDerek]

That at-will is a really, really solid At-Will, even if you're not playing as a Swarm Druid. It's especially nice with, as previously stated, a Rogue in the party. I'm interested in seeing what else they'll be busting out for a Druid in Primal Power. Creeping Doom looks really nice, and unpleasant to be standing in.

[Mostlyjoe]

Aren't those called Shamans now?

The Druid's other build is very much in the vein of calling down the storm and unleashing the power of nature. The problem was the shapeshifting side (which has been very D&D for years) was underplayed in PHB2.

[Web Warlock]

Aren't those called Shamans now?

Yeah, I got the druid I wanted by building it as a Druid/Shaman hybrid.

I think maybe I'll just rename them in my games. Shaman's become Druids and visa-versa. I know. I am weird that way.

I like D&D4 a lot, but the trouble is some of the classes are just ->| |<- this close to beign exactly what I need, but still missing something or doing something different than I like. (not a complaint mind you, just a minor nit-pick).

Oh well. I might still have to pick up Primal Power.

Tim

[Stantz]

Is it just me, or is that At-Will power freaking amazing? You've got to watch for allies getting caught in it, but otherwise... hot damn.
Honestly, it's so damned good that it has me questioning balance. The damage is excellent compared to the other at-wills, and the rider is incredible. Hooray that wizards finally acknowledged that the duel-form thing is a disadvantage, but it's kinda jarring.

[Mostlyjoe]

I must say this makes 4 for 4 on the Power books not being toss aways. WoTC sees a hole in the character options, WoTC fills that hole nicely.

[EsperDerek]

Yeah, goddamn it, why do all the Power books have to be so damn good! Damn you, Wizards, with your quality and making me want to spend money! :mad:

[Topher]

Thing I love the most: the illustration is of a guy dissolving into a mess of salamanders and frogs, so WotC is making it very clear the "bugs" thing is flavor and can be easily reskinned. I mean, yeah, we were all going to do that anyway, but we're RPGnetters and thus atypical.

Topher

[Ratoslov]

We still have to see the rest of the swarm powers, of course, but it strikes me that - with a bit of reskinning - this sort of thing could let you take a decent shot at building Arakune from BlazBlue.
http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/halolz-dot-com-blazblue-arakuneflowchart.gif

[Mostlyjoe]

Dang it. Can someone throw Arakune and Bees! into the tag lines? :D

[Mock]

I must say this makes 4 for 4 on the Power books not being toss aways. WoTC sees a hole in the character options, WoTC fills that hole nicely.

Yeah, I'm going to have to buy this, and go find a hardback version of Martial Power (I have the PDF, boughtened afore they shut down PDF sales, but now I want the dead-tree version to complete my shelf).

[Beri]

I like this, since it's easy to re-skin it into 'turning into a flock of bats, then reforming', or even turning into mist.

I do still think Druids are weird in only having half their class powers available to them at any time, and beastform being completely incompatible with every other class, even if it was just about striking people with your paw harder... Which seems contrary to the whole 4e spirit, but eh.

How do you mean? The Druid Multiclass feat gives you at-will Beast Form for free. That's about as much as they can do to make it work for everyone without just saying 'anyone can beast form, any time!'

[Beri]

I'm probably going to create a Warforged Companion for a bit for the next game. She'll have a few of the Swarm Druid powers. I envision her breaking into automata and other constructs, leaving little more than a standing skeleton. That's assuming that the "Druid" doesn't completely turn into the Swarm.


YES
I want myself a robot that's just a coat draped over a swarm of microbots.

[Jack of None]

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/halolz-dot-com-blazblue-arakuneflowchart.gif

I was just about to post this.

I have always had a soft spot for creepy bug-swarm things...I played a vermin druid in a 3.5 game, and I glommed onto Arakune almost immediately*...so I'm really, really excited for this druid build.





* Technically my main is Bang Shishigami, DON'T JUDGE ME.

[Christopher V. Brady]

Dang it. Can someone throw Arakune and Bees! into the tag lines? :D

Done and done!

[Dormammu]

The Druid's other build is very much in the vein of calling down the storm and unleashing the power of nature. The problem was the shapeshifting side (which has been very D&D for years) was underplayed in PHB2.
Shapeshifting was only "very D&D" starting with 3E imo (ok, that was years long but still). In 1E, changing shape had no real mechanical rules and was a more RP ability without combat application. It was like, if you want to move through the forest with ease and without attracting attention, be an animal! If you want to fight, you're a nature Cleric.

[Ratoslov]

There should be a daily that's just called BEEES!

And that should be the flavor text, too.

[jsb]

How do you mean? The Druid Multiclass feat gives you at-will Beast Form for free. That's about as much as they can do to make it work for everyone without just saying 'anyone can beast form, any time!'I think he's looking at the opposite situation - as a druid, if you take multiclass powers, none of your new powers will work in your beast form. That's a problem that's unique to druids.

As I said, though, in my experience, I didn't have trouble shifting in and out in order to use different powers. It's more of a problem if you want to have a character who spends most of his time in beast form.

[Caduceus]

I think he's looking at the opposite situation - as a druid, if you take multiclass powers, none of your new powers will work in your beast form. That's a problem that's unique to druids.

As I said, though, in my experience, I didn't have trouble shifting in and out in order to use different powers. It's more of a problem if you want to have a character who spends most of his time in beast form.

I don't see it as a problem either.

Also, it isn't really unique to druids; rogues can't use sneak attack with spells. Wizards can't use their implement powers with non-wizard spells. There are a variety of analogous situations in other classes.

[jsb]

I don't see it as a problem either.

Also, it isn't really unique to druids; rogues can't use sneak attack with spells. Wizards can't use their implement powers with non-wizard spells. There are a variety of analogous situations in other classes.Right, but all of the other builds have at least some other classes that they can swap powers from. Wizards can't use their implement features, but they can still use, say, artificer powers. Likewise, rogues can use fighter or ranger powers with their weapons (and even sneak attack with them). Beast form druids are the only ones who are stuck not being able to use any other powers.

As I said, I don't think it's a huge issue, but it does limit your selection, especially if you want to focus on beast form.

[Mostlyjoe]

There should be a daily that's just called BEEES!

And that should be the flavor text, too.

No but I'm going to put a +1 damage achievement into my game the first time someone uses the joke with a Druid.

[CowboyEnergy]

Now I can finally make my dream character. His backstory? I'M COVERED IN BEES! :cool:

[HeridFel]

This is less a big deal than it seems - close and area attacks are mostly against NADs, so the swarm druid isn't any worse off than most other classes in that respect. He'll have two good NADs - fort and will - and one bad - ref. The damage resistance is to make up for his low AC, since he wears light armor and doesn't have Dex or Int as a primary or secondary stat.

I played a 4th-level druid in a one-shot, and didn't really have a problem with this. Wild Shape is a minor action, so it's easy to move back and forth between forms each round based on need. Turning from beast into humanoid even gets you a free shift. There are only a couple of druid abilities that have sustain minor in heroic tier, so usually, you'll have an action available. And in paragon, you get a feat that lets you shift as a free action.

I'm playing a level 5 (just hit 6, actually) guardian druid now. I'm regularly turning into a beast and back into a dwarf on every other turn. If I wanted to play a swarm druid like that, I'd be losing that resist 3-8 every other turn, and I'm around 15-25% more likely to be hit with AC attacks than an equivalent guardian druid. Maybe most of their powers will be beast form, but that's not the impression I got from the preview.

I do love the powers that we've seen thus far. It's only the class feature that's left me a little cold.

[David J Prokopetz]

Maybe most of their powers will be beast form, but that's not the impression I got from the preview.Of the two dailies in the preview, one lasts for the encounter and the other can be sustained. You can benefit from both in beast form, even though they lack the keyword (since you're allowed to sustain non-beast form powers - you just can't activate them).

[Vargo Teras]

Honestly, it's so damned good that it has me questioning balance. The damage is excellent compared to the other at-wills, and the rider is incredible. Hooray that wizards finally acknowledged that the duel-form thing is a disadvantage, but it's kinda jarring.
It's the only beast-form at-will which doesn't benefit from the Primal Predator build's damage adders. The druid in my party makes a habit of charging into flanking, for extremely impressive attack and damage boosts; this power doesn't count as a basic attack, so misses out on all of the adders other than Ferocious Tiger Form (which may apply, but not through flanking unless you want to burn down your buddies as well). Yes, it's more damaging than the current run of Guardian powers, but it's got a weaker control effect and requires you get into melee range to use. It's damned shiny, but I wouldn't call it overpowered.

[jsb]

I'm playing a level 5 (just hit 6, actually) guardian druid now. I'm regularly turning into a beast and back into a dwarf on every other turn. If I wanted to play a swarm druid like that, I'd be losing that resist 3-8 every other turn, and I'm around 15-25% more likely to be hit with AC attacks than an equivalent guardian druid. Maybe most of their powers will be beast form, but that's not the impression I got from the preview.

I do love the powers that we've seen thus far. It's only the class feature that's left me a little cold.I agree that this is a worry, but I think it's an issue that can be overcome. You'll just need to be careful of getting into melee while in humanoid form, and also be wary of archers. The flipside is that you get extra benefit against ranged and melee Fort and Will attacks, since your defenses will be high, and you still get the damage resistance.

[Beri]

There should be a daily that's just called BEEES!

And that should be the flavor text, too.

Oh, the beemanity!

[Ratoslov]

Oh, the beemanity!

I like my women like I like my coffee: Covered in bees.

[sigma7]

Is it wrong of me that I want to play a Dhampir who transforms into a cloud of bats? And says "Vlah, vlah!"?

If I'm wrong, I don't want to be right.

[eltommo!]

Is it wrong of me that I want to play a Dhampir who transforms into a cloud of bats? And says "Vlah, vlah!"?

If I'm wrong, I don't want to be right.
"One, two, three, four! Four editions of D&D! Ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhhh!"

[Omegatron]

"One, two, three, four! Four editions of D&D! Ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhhh!"

Make your Dhampir Druid a Perverted Goblin!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Wd-Q3F8KM

(nsfw!)

[chronoplasm]

I want to be one thousand puppies.

[Elazair]

Finally we can answer the immortal question: How many house cats does it take to kill a man?

[red_artifice]

Finally we can answer the immortal question: How many house cats does it take to kill a man?

One, if inhaled.

[Nahat Anoj]

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/halolz-dot-com-blazblue-arakuneflowchart.gif
I'm obviously missing a reference...

[Mostlyjoe]

I'm obviously missing a reference...

Enjoy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g10aHEc2HA) Even better. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IAvQ2zCQbA)

[Jack of None]

I'm obviously missing a reference...

Short version: Arakune is a character from a fighting game called BlazBlue. He used to be a scientist, but he delved too far into Things Man Was Not Meant to Know and lost his body and his sanity. Now, he's a gibbering slime-creature who survives by eating magical artifacts (and creatures) and is full of bugs.

Basically, he curses you and proceeds to cover you with bees and burrowing worms until you die.

I'm thinking of stealing his schtick for a villain in my 4e campaign. Might multiclass him into Warlock, though. Don't know how well that'll work, but it seems thematic.

....

Damn, now I want to stat up the BlazBlue cast.

[Mostlyjoe]

Damn, now I want to stat up the BlazBlue cast.

Bang is burning with righteousness. So do I. BANG BANG BANG!

[sigma7]

"One, two, three, four! Four editions of D&D! Ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhhh!"

Alternately, he could be part of a complete breakfast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cEOKS5-DcQ).

[Jack of None]

Bang is burning with righteousness. So do I. BANG BANG BANG!

I can't place Bang in the D&D worldview. Does Monk work? I haven't read the new Monk class and the 3.5 version implied a little too much at-one-with-the-world-ness.

Actually, now that I think of it, some kind of unarmed Avenger would work. "You and me, FAIR AND SQUARE!"

...I should not take over the thread.

But Bang is totally a character I would play the hell out of.

[MuscaDomestica]

Short version: Arakune is a character from a fighting game called BlazBlue. He used to be a scientist, but he delved too far into Things Man Was Not Meant to Know and lost his body and his sanity. Now, he's a gibbering slime-creature who survives by eating magical artifacts (and creatures) and is full of bugs.

Basically, he curses you and proceeds to cover you with bees and burrowing worms until you die.

I'm thinking of stealing his schtick for a villain in my 4e campaign. Might multiclass him into Warlock, though. Don't know how well that'll work, but it seems thematic.

....

Damn, now I want to stat up the BlazBlue cast.

looks like a cool character for a fighting game, reminds me of venom, who I use whenever possible. (like the gooyness of him)

I actually want to play a 4e druid now. You can also do the whole hive in the back thing like that guy in Ninja Scroll.

[Ratoslov]

I can't place Bang in the D&D worldview.

Hm. Well, given the nails thing and the super-mode thing, he's a berzerking controller from the Manly Burning Soul! power source.

[Jack of None]

Hm. Well, given the nails thing and the super-mode thing, he's a berzerking controller from the Manly Burning Soul! power source.

I would support a BURNING SPIRIT power source.

Screw it, my next D&D character is going to be an Avenger of Bahamut based on Bang Shishigami. I could see an avenger calling himself "the diving lightning of justice."