Game idea....HELP!!!!

[Muckwa]

OK right off I need to admit that my game making abilities (right along with grammer and spelling) are decidedly untalented. So with that disclaimer in mind here is my grand idea.

Sc-Fi: Humans are exposed to the wealth of life that is in the galaxy. Humans realize that they are the "speacil children" of the galaxy. By this I mean that the majority of other races are stronger physically, smarter mentally, technologically advanced well beyond human tec., and generally all out more advanced. The result is that Humans struggel with the reality of their inferiority. This leads different people down different paths and different races see humans differently. The PC play humans that have to survive and struggel in a world were they are "special".

This idea comes from my own experience and the discussion game themes in RPGs. I grew up attending special classes for an LD. Kids beening what they are made fun of me and teachers beening what they were treated me as if I were stupid. Such was the trend in high school as well as, in varying ways, life to date.

So is the idea stupid. I sort of think it might be only because it seems rather cliche'. However the only perhaps worthwhile feature is the theme of playing a character that is weaker in every regard realative to those around us. Thus I have to questions for those far better at this than I:
1) Is this a viable theme for a game?
-is this enough of a sandbox for people to play in while still having a reason for the sand box to be.

2) How do I navagate flecshing this out further if it is worth while?
-Sort of the now what mentality.

Thanks for the help,
Mike

[Boba Fett]

I think the basic premise is good. If humans were the "weakest link", you should expand on this idea throughout the setting; How do other races take advantage of human weakness?
What is humanity's strong point - there has to be a strong point, otherwise they'd be wiped out?
In many scifi tales, the human advantage is that of compassion/love. Are humans enslaved? In exile? Hiding out and striking for supplies now and then? Etc

[kabael]

I think it's a great idea, especially since I've had it up to about here with the "humans are the most adaptable or nicest or prettiest or whatever-est" of all races, whether in sci-fi or fantasy.

The thing to remember is that just because humanity isn't as fast or strong or advanced as the rest of the universe doesn't mean they are necessarily automatically enslaved or actually in a bad position.

Look at how the modern world works, as it's a close analogy (although not a perfect one). Industrialized countries don't automatically march over less developed nations, at least not militarily. Instead they tend to extend charity of an often parental or even patronizing sort, which can do a lot to engender a great deal of resentment and animosity.

I can easily imagine mankind reaching the stars and finding out it's not top dog anymore. Society would be irrevocably changed, and a significant minority (at least) would form for the express purpose of resisting that change and remaining "pure."

I have to say that culture warfare is much more insidious and difficult to stop than the military variety, especially when the playing field isn't even.

Oh, and I recommend you check out David Brin's Uplift War series of novels. Fun sci-fi based around a similar idea, in that humanity is the youngest race and the least-advance of the space-faring species. It was, however, also the most unique for a few in-setting reasons. But it's definitely in the same vein as your idea.

[Muckwa]

Good question (This is why I ask)

I am not set on an answer but off the top of my head I think that humanity's (in this context) stregth is two fold. One that Humans CAN learn what the other races have to teach but that would require some teaching and fundemental changes in how human's concieve of reality. Some races lack the care about humans even advocating for their extermination. Other races want to protect humans and give them some reason to exist. Perhaps other enslave them in jobs that no body else wnats to do (like the retarded man that I know who works at the grocery store all his life and never gets promoted and rarely gets anything approaching a raise). Essentially if one considers how people react to others less capable, then you would have the various takes by different races on the human race. The end result will be that some might be more favorable in some ways then others but all of them fail to actually help or allow humanity to realize anything.

The second stregnth of humanity is that our physiology and body composition is seen as simple to the other races and as a result can be altered and used in different ways. I supose this brings in the genetic, cloning, humans as other race's lab rats sort of thing. This is a stregnth because it means that we can be adapted to many different envrionments and situations (in deed such adjustments are even part of our development; Darwinism).

If there are more others think worth while to incorperate plese add them in. If one of them should be removed please say that as well. Other questions are welcome!! As well as other things that need to be accomplished before there is a frame for the box that I might start to pour the sand into.
Thanks for the help,
Mike

[Mock]

I'd run with it: it's a great idea.

I think the two qualities of humanity you describe are good starting points to set up some serious conflicts within the human race and between humans and other aliens--all of which help the game be compelling.

The first item (doing all of the galaxy's worst jobs) could spawn major divisions in the human race, where one side refuses completely, another side would do anything to get even the crumbs of a more advanced species, another side goes along, biding its time for some rebellion it's dreaming of, and still another faction spends all its time in violent rebellion.

The second item (having simple and flexible genes) is also strong--I raised a similar notion in a thread in the old forums, about having humans be engineered and sold as tools or as novelty items around the galaxy. Imagine a universe where the more superior races buy humans to use as workers, pets, decoration, and where they modify them to look like what they want. It's creepy. And if the people who are doing the genetic engineering are also humans, it's even more creepy--and presents a great target for heroically minded characters.

Go for it--this is a strong premise.

-Mock

[Desperado]

I'll jump on the banwagon and say that this is a wonderful idea. I'm currently writing a fantasy game (which we all know can get kind of dry) and may experiment with this concept to liven it up, if you don't mind of course.

Personally, I believe any good story, or game for that matter, must be able to express . . . <i>humanity</i>. I'm not sure what else to call it in one word. It's that driving force. Something only seems real, or alive, when it truly strives to live, not just survive, but live. Be happy, content and whole. I think the concept of the human race being a minority amongst other species is incredible.

For a time my friends and I played The World of Darkness games by White Wolf. Most of my friends prefered Vampires or Werewolves. They all thought me insane because my favorite choise out of the series is Hunter: The Reckoning. I chose it because it's capable of showing humanity at its best. In this particular game humans realize they're not at the top of the food chain. It's their willingness to survive, and the pure enigmatic energy from their struggle that keeps them alive. While they may get special powers to deal with the physical aspects of their adversaries their mental and emotional strength is always being compramised by this new self-doubt.

I believe the concept of taking it to the entire human civilization on earth is wonderful. Letting the entire world know that Earth is a meer child among a galaxy of anciant and advanced races makes you question everything: love, friendship, happiness, fear, and anger. I'm not sure about anyone else but my heart pumps faster and faster at the thought of such a dynamic and, dare I say. philisophical idea. But maybe that's just me and my way-too-deep way of thinking about things.

[donalfall]

Just to add my voice with everyone else's - this is a good idea, especially if you also had the Players generate characters who were on their "first time out" - so you could parallel humanities lack of power and knowledge with the Pc's lack of power and knowledge. Over the course of the campaign, in little ways at first and then moving into the grand, the Pc's ( and humanity ) could redefine their place in the galaxy.

Or indeed, as would happen in MY group the Pc's could defect and join some other race as expatriates. ( Very likely - my players are quite mercenary )

Sorry, wandering off on a tangent.

Humanities greatest trait could be their adaptability? We'll live anywhere on our own planet - what about on alien worlds where there are areas the aliens won't live on 'cos they don't like them, or are damaged by them, and suddenly when humanity enters the intarstellar culture, little "leper colonies" of humans start gathering in these nooks and crannies?

donalfall

[Mesa Virga]

One more 'aye' to the mix. There are aspects of Titan AE which fit this mould quite well, so it could be worth watching that if you have a spare couple of hours.

Also, there are other games in which the human PCs are certainly weaker than the bulk of their 'foes', so it can be done. Call of Cthulhu anyone?

Matt.

[Misguided]

This isn't an uncommon theme (that isn't a criticism or knock, just an observation). There are many sci-fi settings where humans gain power etc over the long haul because of an intangible desire to explore, a need to see what lies beyond. In your game, will there be something that ultimately balances the weaknesses that humans have, or will they always be considered "special"? Something to think about, maybe...

[Muckwa]

Thanks for the support and ideas, I welcome more.

Desperado wrote:
"I'm not sure about anyone else but my heart pumps faster and faster at the thought of such a dynamic and, dare I say. philosophical idea. But maybe that's just me and my way-too-deep way of thinking about things."

Actually I hoped to spark this. It is nice that some one else is excited at the possible exploration the philosophical conflicts at large in this realm. Philosophy being a passion of mine, I in tend to include it as strong element to the tone. Thanks for picking up on that! Ideas on how to accomplish that are welcome.

Donalfall wrote:
"Just to add my voice with everyone else's - this is a good idea, especially if you also had the Players generate characters who were on their "first time out" - so you could parallel humanities lack of power and knowledge with the Pc's lack of power and knowledge. Over the course of the campaign, in little ways at first and then moving into the grand, the Pc's (and humanity) could redefine their place in the galaxy."

I am with you on the players generation. I think if I were the GM or a player with this game the exposure to the superiority around them and the discovery of the ways of the worlds and races would be an experience in this game that would lend itself to a lot of role-playing. If nothing else it might set the tone of the game.

"Humanities greatest trait could be their adaptability? We'll live anywhere on our own planet - what about on alien worlds where there are areas the aliens won't live on 'cos they don't like them, or are damaged by them, and suddenly when humanity enters the interstellar culture, little "leper colonies" of humans start gathering in these nooks and crannies?"

Once again a great addition to the idea, thanks. I conceived of the adaptability thing being part of the simplicity of the human physiology thing. However the colonies of human's would make sense of some people might react through isolationism, escapism or some other means to avoid the issue.

Msavigear wrote:
"There are aspects of Titan AE which fit this mould quite well, so it could be worth watching that if you have a spare couple of hours.
Also, there are other games in which the human PCs are certainly weaker than the bulk of their 'foes', so it can be done. Call of Cthulhu anyone?"

I'll have to check out Titan AE. I assume I can find it at the video store? Actually seeing has how other games have done this before (make humans weak and all) I figured it might be clieche' (sp?). To the degree that I can I obviously want to avoid it. Of the top of my head I can't figure out how so but I did find this a weakness to wrestel with when the idea was suggested. Thoughs, comments, suggestions?

Misguided Wrote:
" This isn't an uncommon theme (that isn't a criticism or knock, just an observation). There are many sci-fi settings where humans gain power etc over the long haul because of an intangible desire to explore, a need to see what lies beyond. In your game, will there be something that ultimately balances the weaknesses that humans have, or will they always be considered "special"? Something to think about, maybe..."

Good question. I mentioned some of the strengths that humans had in response to another question above so in as much as they are strengths then I guess that there is some form of hope. However I think to keep the theme true humans are just the least capable race. Though I'd envison part of the role of the PC being to struggel with the issue you are asking about. I guess I am undecided about this. Any other thoughts?

I truly appreciate the aid, because it helps to hear what needs to be fleshed out. Additionally, it aids in brainstorming.
Thanks
Mike

[Andrew Martin]

Mike wrote:
> I'll have to check out Titan AE. I assume I can find it at the video store?

Yes. It's available on video and DVD, according the DVD sites I checked just a few hours ago.

> Actually seeing has how other games have done this before (make humans weak and all) I figured it might be cliche. To the degree that I can I obviously want to avoid it. Of the top of my head I can't figure out how so but I did find this a weakness to wrestel with when the idea was suggested. Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

To avoid cliches, it's best to know of them.

[Andy K]

Actually, what you describe is the theme of a bestselling novel series by SF author (and GURPS player) David Brin called "The Uplift Trilogy" (now 2 trilogies of 6 books).

Basically, humans discover, some 400 years in the future, another species. And they belong, like the rest of all intelligent life, to a rigorous, static social system spanning 5 galaxies of oxygen-breathing life that has been around (with a few revolutions) for billions of years. Humans are introduced to the other races, and sparks fly because all races are "uplifted" by other races, yet humans seemed to have evolved by themselves.

The series has strong themes of "Well, what do we do now", as there is a Library that has existed for 2 billion years and contains almost any knowledge imaginable. Even though humans are truly peons, they are always at the center of things because of their unique background. They have succeeded often through trickery, diplomacy, and being in the right place at the right time.

There was actually a GURPS supplement made for this setting called "GURPS Uplift", but it is sadly VERY out of print. Still, reading at least the first book (Sundiver) may give you some ideas. But still, I think you could make a similar setting yet have it be unique (like, instead of Billions of years, galactic society has existed for only a few Million, and maybe there are wars and the like going on- but with humans outclassed in every way, they should try to use other methods...

I think that maybe you may want to consider giving humans some sort of unique quality that other species don't have. For example, maybe we lie easier than other races, or are better at diplomacy, or poetry or something. I mean, maybe not make it something that gives humans a big advantage, but maybe something small that at least a few people from each race take note of. In another of Brin's short stories (in the "Otherness" compilation novel) humans were outclassed by a MUCH smarter "older brother" race that discovered them, but humans could experience the emotion of pity, which apparently either the older brother race couldn't understand, or "freaked out" when they started feeling it. Something stupid and small like that might be fun, too.

Good luck!
-Andy

[Deathlok]

I'm going to disagree with some other posters who are arguing for humanity to have some distinctive feature, or something that they do better than exeryone else. I think the idea earlier, about working all the jobs no one else wants, is the most flavorful way to go. In this universe, Earth is a bit like Africa in the 18th century (I guess it's too late for a "Non-PC" warning, but here goes): Other, more powerful, entities want Human workers, but lack the time, inclination, or resources to take Earth outright (as this would also involve conflict with all the other species that desire Earth)... So what you get is an Earth that's independent because everyone is willing to share the cheap labor, since the alternative is a huge, costly war.

Josh Morrow

[KlausGreen]

I have (with great enjoyment) read all the posts in this thread and must say I'm very impressed with the original idea, the quality of the additions by so many sources and the good tone throughtout. The forums at their very best...

I'm also very intrigued with the idea and thought about the various responses that might arise from various outside powers:

+ Treat humans and all other life on earth as totally inferior, kind of like how we treat exotic animals. Baby humans kept as pets for their children and then turned out when they reach a certain age or size, thereby creating some very disturbed humans living in impounds or in the wild. They could also be hunted as in "Planet of the Apes" or eaten as exotic meat.

+ View humanity as a sort of test lab, as a sort of philosophical insight into their own prehistory, as if we met a caveman or similar. They would watch us and catalogue us, maybe conduct experiments on us (bring in the alien abductions made so popular by X-files and similar stuff). This is also where the great idea of the simplistic Human Genepool comes in.

+ Humans might also be viewed as parasites inhabiting a world rich with silicium (sand) or other very common material that's very rare on other planets (this requires a bit of thought so that it is not stretching believability too much) and therefore we should be eradicated. Again, the ressources are so rich that more than one fraction of aliens want them so war breaks out and Earth is the spoils of war to be taken. Humanity could respond in a host of different ways, from offering their support to one race to hiding out or trying to form a third front. Humanity might not agree on what to do. Religious hysteria might break out, condemning humanity to halt all progress and regress in certain areas of the planet.

+ Humanity might be inherently dangerous to the aliens, not due to a disease or virus but maybe because the aliens are telepathical due to a very strict psychological make-up. Human minds are chaotic and spontaneous inducing insanity or wild delusions in the alien minds. If the Aliens have a sort of unifying mass identity this identity could now be totally insane posing a threat both to humans and the few aliens that found a way to shield their thoughts.

+ Humanity might be enslaved by a unified front of intergalactic Aliens and condemned to live on a penal planet away from Earth. The reason is our traditional cruelty to all other life on the planet which the intergalactic council finds barbaric and extremely disturbing. This also prevents them from just shattering the planet in an attempt to find all of us as they want to preserve and heal it after millennia of human mistreatment. Some part of humanity could even fight WITH the aliens on this one. There might even be factions within the alien council that would like a different approach to the "Earth Dilemma case# 3059-JJ" and some other humans would like to side with that part. There might even exist aliens not part of this council that has met a similar fate and therefore would like to help the population of Earth.

+ Humanity causes religious doubt and disarray amongst the aliens because we are capable of something they can't. This could be physical (there are so many of us, these aliens are comparatively few in numbers and only very few of them can actually breed), mentally (creativity in arts, ie music, poetry, painting, sculpting is held in sanctified high regard with this alien society that has lost most of its artistic identity during their infinite exploration of space) or psychologically (we can dream and have a spontaneous creative imagination opposite the aliens that have stagnated and lost the drive that feeds ambition). All depending on the effect, the aliens might view us as threatening (the physical angle), as advanced pieces of home furniture that can create pleasant trinkets or maybe some sort of prophets (mental angle) or even their salvation (psychological angle). This should of course be coupled to our inherent inferiority, that might mean we are not capable of understanding the alien reaction or that we might not be able to do as the aliens would like immediately without help. This could again spawn various fractions on Earth that would advocate different reactions to the Alien presense (and superiority).

+ We encounter the Aliens on another planet and they are still drastically advanced although they don't conduct space travel. They are mentally far superior to humans and view us merely as quaint and a bit misguided. They know the secret of space and all existence and they want humanity to find out for themselves or face their own extinction due to lack of knowledge and/or understanding. Maybe at our own hands due to a galactic dark secret or a hidden fundamental truth that humanity has not discovered having focused on external development instead of mental development - our only salvation.

+ The Aliens are very surprised to suddently encounter us in space as we're a long forgotten experiment conducted millions of years ago (or maybe Earth is the first planet grown from Universal Planetseeds grown by these aliens but soon left because the result was disappointing). We therefore receive A LOT of attention from various fractions of the aliens. Some of them view us as a threat and blame their own governments for setting loose a dangerous presence in an otherwise ordered universe, some of them wants to study us, others want to make use of us in a cooperative way and yet others wants to take up the Planetseed Project again using Earth and Humanity in a great re-marketing campaign (silly idea). This would also have a great impact on humanity as God do exist but he has forgotten us and he is not without errors. We were created yes, but we were not actually wanted and now we are not loved for returning... Could spawn anything from despair and extreme rootlessness to cold and dangerous anger.

Those were my ideas. Hope some of them made sense.

KR KGA

[Mock]

To expand on a couple thoughts recently posted:

It would be fascinating to simply work through the different outlooks that the alien races would have toward us--Klaus suggested that some races might view us as "quaint and misguided." So consider the various views of us that different might have:

Parental: they've been through our development phases, and they think we're sort of "cute" (in an environment-destroying, nuclear-bomb-having, terroristic sort of way ;) )

Quaint & Misguided: they've seen us before (maybe in the guise of other primitive races?) and they'll put up with our foibles because, hey, we just don't know better--so they gently educate us in the "right path"

Contempt: we are beneath notice, good only for mucking out stalls and hauling garbage

Disgust: we are revolting to them--whether it's our physiology, our mindset, our smell, our sound--we disgust them and they will have as little to do with us as possible

Pedantic/Supercilious: they consider us inferior, but with stern (and maybe brutal) education, we could be a reasonable imitation of their proper ways

Lust/Hunger: they either find us bizarrely attractive, or they find us incredibly tasty--they think of us as food or toys for their whims (actually, how interesting it would be to set up a society in which certain species might consider the other to be food...but be forced to sublimate that desire because of law)

Avarice: they see us as a ticket to wealth--they can buy and sell us, and we are very popular--the latest fad is to own a human; or, they could pretend to be our best friends and simply use us for leverage in some galactic intrigue that is way over our heads

Cold curiosity: we are little more than specimens to be studied in every aspect possible.

Fanatic opposition: we represent everything evil in their theology, and must be annihilated (I don't know how their theology would know about us, but work with me here...)

Fanatic support: we are to be inducted into galactic civilization as quickly as possible (maybe because if we are brought in, the rest of the civilization will stop picking on the other new kids)

Pragmatism: we are useful tools, to be manipulated as necessary--like every other new entry to the galactic civilization, we have to pay our dues in service, genetic material, and suffering.

All of these ideas can exist simultaneously within one galactic structure, which augments the conflicts I mentioned earlier (the ones that would form within the human race) with conflicts that occur within galactic society at large. I'd bet we'd also have some issues with the way we are treated, even by those that would be our friends: I don't know about you, but I'd hate to have a patronizing alien sponsor.

-Mock

[Mock]

Originally posted by KlausGreen:
[B]The Aliens are very surprised to suddently encounter us in space as we're a long forgotten experiment conducted millions of years ago (or maybe Earth is the first planet grown from Universal Planetseeds grown by these aliens but soon left because the result was disappointing). We therefore receive A LOT of attention from various fractions of the aliens. Some of them view us as a threat and blame their own governments for setting loose a dangerous presence in an otherwise ordered universe, some of them wants to study us, others want to make use of us in a cooperative way and yet others wants to take up the Planetseed Project again using Earth and Humanity in a great re-marketing campaign (silly idea). This would also have a great impact on humanity as God do exist but he has forgotten us and he is not without errors. We were created yes, but we were not actually wanted and now we are not loved for returning... Could spawn anything from despair and extreme rootlessness to cold and dangerous anger. [B]


Pure genius. I love this idea.

It's off topic, but I had a concept for a game in which the world was abandoned by the gods after a celestial conflict--your idea is a fascinating twist.

-Mock

[Pyske]

Love the setting Muckwa. To add to Mock's suggestions (and in keeping with Muckwa's original inspiration):

+ Guilt: The aliens are an egalitarian society, and their moral codes say that all life must be valued equally. Unfortunately, their ideas of what is valuable / useful in life don't match what humans are capable of, creating a guilt complex -- rationally, the aliens want to treat us as equals, but their social training and values system makes it a significant struggle for them to do so.

. . . . . . . -- Eric

[NPC Muckwa]

Something is messed up because I am having difficulty signing in as myself......That aside...Dam...you all have some great contributions I really appreciate that!!

I have been turning over a few thoughts in my head about this game. The results are not necessarily linked in any way feel free to comment on them as you all see fit, if you all see fit :).

Some one (sorry that I cannot give credit directly) asked if humanity has any strength that others do not have. Another posted that making humanity inferior might stay truer to the premise(s) of the game. Perhaps part of the point of the game is for the PC to wrestle with what the strength of humanity is in a reality of such pervasive inferiority. Once again I return to my own experience for the inspiration. I realized that much of my life has been devoted to seeking my own strength. In talking with others that have had similar experience they too have wrestled with a similar state. Indeed I wonder if it is just a universal that people struggle with what is valuable about them. To make this more generally, look at situations were people are in such powerless states that they must seek something to survive. I think of Victor Frankle in this regard. He theories that in such a hopeless state, such as the holocaust in his experience, those that felt that they had value, or found value, lived. Ok I am rambling on but I think I made the point.

Secondly, in keeping with a philosophical tone, this struggle for the value of man might only be unique in that we removed what I think classically man has valued relative to other animals, intelligence. Man is use to being in power to some degree have we anything else to offer assuming our sort of consciousness, intellect ect are no more? In essence how do this alter the nature of people? Could we even function? These questions are really only the beginning. Perhaps man's strength is in the search for a strength rather than having one nicely layed out for you(sort of an after thought here).
Perhaps I am mistaken but this game as another one has said offers some great fundamental philosophical potential in the areas of meaning, reality, knowledge and so fourth...Am I missing something or do others see this too? I think that if I had to pick a tone for the game could "Gritty philosophical" fit?

Have I just restated the game's point in different words or does this work in the structure we have set up thus far? As I see it I am not at this point trying to remake the premise but simply convey it better for a group of people to explore with in, I am not sure how to navigate that task best. .
Third, I think one of my key worries is that this is too cliché'. I think there are many elements that make this worthwhile and different to some degree. What are the elements that are too cliché' and don't serve the theme/premise ect..?

Klaus:
Those are some great ideas, many of them I had in mind with this setting, a few I did not :).

Psyke:
Nice one...I really like that internal conflict. Depending on things this could really fragment that society. This creates many POVs in the same culture all with your underlying theme.

Mock:
You kicked this off nicely. Certainly made it easier to write about each race....Thanks!!
Over all you all have been great help, a hardy thank you is in order. I very much appreciate all the opinions and ideas.

Mike

[NPC Mock]

<still not logging me in properly...curse them!>

The idea that humankind's strength lies in the fact that they search for a strength is quite powerful. In essence, what separates us from the other, established, and powerful races in the universe is that we are not satisfied with ourselves--we will never be satisfied, and never cease to develop.

Other species may be quite content with their role in the galaxy, and perhaps this could be a galaxy in which nothing has changed for millions of years.

It addresses the issue (one I've found in many games) that quite often an alien species, or simply a non-human species, will be distilled to a single stereotype. The stereotype may be based on their role in the game (orks are the enemy, thus orks are "stupid" and brutish), their appearance (goblins wear black and red, the colors of evil), their occupation (elves make good archers), or a mix (Alien Species X is known for its technological ability). It is a useful construct in gaming because it helps move things along, but it has a strong prejudicial element. While this may be a bad thing in general, in this particular game it might be an entertaining theme: the aliens are basically stuck in a rut, unwilling to change. This race provides the universe with ships, while this one serves as warriors, and still another becomes the universe's librarian. Humans, on the other hand, are not content to be locked into a role (especially not "universe's cabin boy") and many aliens cannot grasp a species that would be so intent on being unpredictable.