[4E] Skill Challenge Feedback

[Safid]

I'm running a modified version of Seekers of the Ashen Crown. This weekend, the PCs will very likely be involved in the leg of the adventure that takes place in Greywall. However, there's really not much that happens in the module there -- a neat skill challenge and two encounters. I really like Droaam as a setting and want to play up the craziness that goes along with a city built by ogres where gargoyles and medusas walk the streets. To that end I want to introduce a side-quest.

Spoilers for Ashen Crown after this point.

The PCs are attempting to get a final piece of the McGuffin when betrayal strikes -- the doppleganger double agent that was their contact is actually a triple agent. In the module, he kills all the hobgoblins that the PCs are allied with, steals all the McGuffin pieces, has the Emerald Claw reanimate the goblins and attack the PCs. However in my game the PCs have grown attached to one of the goblins (the rogue Govaan, if anyone cares) and I thought it would be cool to have him survive, but be dying of poison. Of course, he also manages to choke out half a cryptic message to the PCs, and has vital information which can further the plot (though I have other ways of nudging the PCs in various directions if needs be). The PCs have access to Delay Affliction and will probably use it. If not, he just won't die for a day or so.

The PCs have a contact in the city, a goblin poisoner named Swift, who can likely reverse the poison (which I've determined is made up of ground up Khyber dragonshards and makes the target unable to spend or regain healing surges) but only if the PCs do her a little favor. That favor? Break into the courtyard of the Karda (the keep where the mindflayer ruler of Greywall lives), avoid the guards, and retrieve a particular statute of someone turned to stone so Swift can reverse the process. The keep is heavily guarded, the courtyard less so, but it's still extremely dangerous.

(Ostensibly, Swift wants the statute retrieved because the person is useful to her. In reality, she just wants to torture and kill them for having wronged her. Also, the statute is of one of my PCs siblings, tying in with his background)

That was a lot of background information. Here is my skill challenge which I would like feedback on. I don't allow Aid Another in my skill challenges but do allow creative thinking to either garner a success or add bonuses to other skill checks. I also allow a PC to bump up the difficulty of a check by 5 for an added benefit (additional success, success and helping some other roll out) at their option.

Skill Challenge: The Mindflayer's Stone Garden

Complexity 5 (12 successes before 3 failures), Level 5 (1625 XP)

DCs Easy 7, Moderate 12, Hard 17. All checks are of Moderate difficulty unless otherwise stated.

Goal: Sneak into the courtyard of the Karda, avoid the guards, spirit away a particular stone statute.

The keep is at the heart of the restricted administrative district. Just getting to the keep itself will take some cunning. Good intelligence before attempting is vital.
The courtyard is surrounded by a 40' wall, built by ogres. The gate is guarded by a squadron of gnolls from the Znir Pact, there are regular patrols along the battlements, and some of the statutes in the gardens are actually gargoyle guards.
The keep itself is more heavily guarded, but the guards do not venture into the courtyard if there is a disturbance and instead prepare to repel an attack (thus giving the PCs time to escape)
The keep isn't just defended by stone walls and guards, there are wards on the battlements, the gate, and in several places in the courtyard itself which trigger alarms or create barriers of magical force.

Primary Skills (1/turn)
Athletics -- Climb the walls, open gates, move the statute, run from guards. Failure means the wall is too steep and the PCs will need to find another way in (the gate)
Stealth -- avoid detection, sneak past guards, dodge patrols in the streets. Failure means a guard is alerted, and the PCs have a limited number of rounds to defeat him or fail the entire challenge.
Streetwise -- learn the layout of the courtyard, determine where the guards and patrols may be, discover when guards change shifts, etc. Failure means that no further information can be gained except via History.
Arcana -- disarm the wards on the walls or gate. Failure means the PCs need to try the other entry point.
Perception -- notice patrols coming, spot the hidden gargoyles, find the correct statute in the garden. Failure could mean discovery by a patrol, as above.

Secondary Skills
Thievery -- get past the front gate, steal keys from guards. (1 success max)
Acrobatics -- squeeze through gate bars, balance along the ramparts to avoid guards
History -- gain additional information about the statute garden, basically substituting appropriate information from a Streetwise check (1 success max)

Success
The characters sneak into the courtyard and manage to spirit away the correct statute, which they can trade to Swift for the antidote.

Failure
The characters alert the Flayer Guard and must face a very difficult fight -- gargoyles in the courtyard, gnolls at the gate, archers on the ramparts, and soldiers that flood the courtyard itself. (I have this encounter built with terrain etc but suffice to say it's a level+3 encounter with unfavorable terrain, very difficult)

So am I doing this right? What did I miss? I want to try to make this challenge run organically. Once I give the PCs the hook, I hope to nudge them into making some Streetwise checks to find out some information, and then I want the party to just naturally follow the flow of things -- scope out the place, make a plan, execute a plan. Every PC must participate, but I'm not going to enforce an initiative order. But for example Stealthy McNinja can't just run around making all the checks, he can make 1 check and then the other 4 PCs must go before he can make another ninja check.

I also intend on using the "group skill checks" variant from the DMG when it looks like it makes sense. For example, if the PCs decide to scale the wall, then as one action in the challenge they all make Athletics checks and 3/5 PCs need to pass the DC otherwise it's a failure. Same for some Stealth checks, etc. Depending on the situation, of course.

Wow, sorry for writing a novel. Hopefully someone will tough it out and give me some feedback!

[Stickman12]

I like the set up, it's a nice scenario and has a variety of checks in there. Some of the advice in the DMG2 springs to mind - maybe consider splitting the challenge into phases, each of which has different skills:

Phase 1 - Planning

Primary - Streetwise, History, Diplomacy
Secondary - Athletics

Phase 2 - Sneak in (needs 2 successes total to get to), Phase 3 - Avoid the guards (needs 4 successes total) to get to, Phase 4 - Pick the right statue, Phase 5 - Get out

This lets you give a much wider variety of skills to use. It also controls pacing so you know they'll only, for ex, be planning for 2 successes before moving on.

In addition, I'd mix it up in terms of success and failure rewards. Maybe the Diplomacy check in Phase 1 actually allows them to learn that a delivery of food occurs each midday. It gives a success and allows the use of Bluff (disguise) in Phase 2 as they enter on a catering wagon. Maybe failure precludes the use of another skill later on, or adds a modifier, instead of kicking off a combat.

Basically, set up the challenge so the story isn't knocked off course if they fail teh challenge - maybe failing merely means the previous owner of the statue learns who was trying to steal it, or maybe they steal the wrong one, or they steal the right one but it gets damaged somehow in the process.

[Safid]

Very interesting. I do like the idea of doing a challenge in phases because it seems more directed. How do you run something like that? Do you announce to the table "alright guys, now it's time to find out some information!" and see how they react, then after a few dice rolls, move on to the next announcement of what the PCs should attempt to do? I have found that unguided skill checks with my party do not work well because the players lose focus and can't figure out what to do, but I don't really want to reduce it to me telling them what checks to make when.

I also appreciate your alternate failure options and possible different approaches to the encounter. I tried to make my skill list pick from common skills the PCs have (no one has Bluff, I think one PC has Diplomacy) but it just goes to show how other people may attempt to solve the same problem, and I need to be ready for that.

[Stickman12]

I tend to describe the overall skill challenge and the current phase in loose terms, giving a few ideas of how they might go, and setting a limit right there, all meta and proud.

"OK, the cult leader has escaped from you through the secret door and you're going to try to track him down. The first part of this skill challenge involves you following his tracks through the older corridors of the castle, so you could try spotting clues or maybe you know something about the castles history? However you follow him, you need 4 successes to move onto the new part of the challenge."

That sort of thing, indicating that History, Perception are probably go to skills, maybe Dungeoneering, Arcana or something else would crop up. My players are devils for wanting to use any skill going, so I'm sure the cleric would pray for guidance using Religeon or the fighter try to Intimidate a passing servant :) By defining what the phases are, you still allow the players choice in how to succeed at that - be it voluntarily taking a combat, using a different set of skills or trying to rp thier way through that encounter.

You're spot on by targetting the skills to what you have, but make sure to throw a few extras in to cover either likely (obvious) skill choices or just to keep them on thier toes. At higher levels, the untrained bonus can get quite good, so it's worth a shot and adds a little more tension than simply using the same 3 skills repeatedly.

[Safid]

How do you track failures through phases? My DMG2 is on loan to someone else. Say the PCs garner a failure in phase 1 making a Streetwise check. I could have it mean that they asked the wrong questions from the wrong person and now have to deal with an agent of the Flayer Guard who is suspicious about their behavior or something similar. But that doesn't mean the phase itself has failed and they can't move onto phase 2 (sneaking in)? It's just 1 of their 3 total failures allowed before the failure condition occurs?

Skill challenges are so neat in theory, but honestly I don't spend nearly this much time or effort throwing together a cool fight in interesting terrain.

[Stickman12]

Numerically it's just 1 of 3 failures, they can simply pick up the dice and try again. However, you might offer a new Skill to use if they fail, or increase the DC of all other checks in that phase, or dock them a healing surge, start a fight or so on.

This approach works really nicely for orchestrating a bigger scene using skills, but it does take time, and as you say when it's compared to say throwing an encounter together it does seem time consuming. I'm sure someone could knock together a flash app or something to automate some of this!

If it seems like too much work, drop the number of phases to maybe two and concentrate on those

[Safid]

No, your feedback has been very helpful. I think I will try to break things down into stages, indicate to the players their goal for this stage (but not successes or skills) and see where things go. So long as I have some ideas for failure conditions, it should work out fine, right?

Of course no plan ever survives contact with the PCs. Makes me wonder why I'm going through all this work, except that I haven't yet run what I would consider a really successful skill challenge, and this is the first one I've put together myself rather than taking it out of a module.