Choosing between 4E and Pathfinder

[jonnyfrag]

My kids want to play an RPG again and I have even been making foam walls and terrain etc...
My $64,000 is do I play my 3.5 stuff I already have, get 4e (which I have been reading already) or Pathfinder (which I have not read any of yet)

The kids have played 3.5 a bit in the past but are not masters of it at all but they play WoW and such so I am sure they would grasp 4e readily. 3.5 makes sense to them though and as such Pathfinder (or just sticking with 3.5) would work fine as well.

One main question I have is how does magic in Pathfinder work (in a nutshell) I get what 4e is doing with magic and for the most part approve since in my experience lower level wizards or sorcerors use up their spells and then hang out for the rest of the game. I am of the let the spells fly/cinematic type of DM.
I like some of what 4e is doing with the magic and powers and all but it does lack a certain taste of D&D (I have been playing since the red box days and have played every version but I am of the THAC0 is whacko crowd)

Is Pathfinder a daily slot, use it or lose it type of system or does it free up spellcasters somewhere in the middle?

I am sure everyone has some opinions on this so lemme hear them!

[Khairn]

Pathfinder is very much like 3E when it comes to spellcasting. Standard D&D Vancian paradigm is in play with a couple of exception like 0 lv spells that can be cast at will.

If you and your kids already know the 3E rules, then playing Pathfinder will be quite familiar. Most of the changes made were to help balance out some of the classes (beefing up non-casters), minimizing the "save or die" spells and generally cleaning up most of the common complaints.

4E is a completely different game all together, designed with a completely different play style in mind. But it was also designed with newbie players in mind, and should be easy for most people to pick up.

[Bruwulf]

Pathfinder is still fundamentally 3.x. Magic using classes have been tweaked some, but at their core they haven't been fundamentally changed. That means spell slots.

[Belphanior]

Paizo has made most of their ruleset available here:
Click and ye shall receive. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)

But in a nutshell: wizards and sorcerers still use the system they used in 3.5 D&D. However, they do get to pick specializations or origins which grant aditional powers beyond their spell selection. And they can cast 0-level spells at-will, so you can keep spamming a 1d3 ray of frost if you're out of real spells to use.

I do have some opinions on Pathfinder, but I'll just let you read the link and form your own opinion. I'm not looking for an edition war today.


Edit: Oh, and welcome to the forum.

[jonnyfrag]

Paizo has made most of their ruleset available here:
Click and ye shall receive. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)

But in a nutshell: wizards and sorcerers still use the system they used in 3.5 D&D. However, they do get to pick specializations or origins which grant aditional powers beyond their spell selection. And they can cast 0-level spells at-will, so you can keep spamming a 1d3 ray of frost if you're out of real spells to use.

I do have some opinions on Pathfinder, but I'll just let you read the link and form your own opinion. I'm not looking for an edition war today.


Edit: Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for but had not found yet. Not trying to start an edition war at all. Pathfinder comes highly recommended and I haven't seen really any negative opinions about it, but I actually like some (some) of what 4e is doing and dislike some of it as well.

[Belphanior]

Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for but had not found yet. Not trying to start an edition war at all. Pathfinder comes highly recommended and I haven't seen really any negative opinions about it, but I actually like some (some) of what 4e is doing and dislike some of it as well.

You're welcome.

But if you haven't seen any negative opinions on Pathfinder... well, let's just say that you should've been here a few months ago. The hatred ran deep those days.

[Ben Rasmussen]

If you want to get a better idea to help compare, WotC has a test drive of the 4e rules and a so-so adventure and preview of the character builder for levels 1-3. You can get them here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/TryDnD.aspx).

Which ever you decide, you're sure to find fans of it around here. Welcome to the forums!

[Jedira Dakhan]

Paizo has made most of their ruleset available here:
Click and ye shall receive. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)

But in a nutshell: wizards and sorcerers still use the system they used in 3.5 D&D. However, they do get to pick specializations or origins which grant aditional powers beyond their spell selection. And they can cast 0-level spells at-will, so you can keep spamming a 1d3 ray of frost if you're out of real spells to use.

I do have some opinions on Pathfinder, but I'll just let you read the link and form your own opinion. I'm not looking for an edition war today.


Edit: Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Those additional powers are a pretty big deal at early levels. You get 3 + Ability mod (so typically 7) uses per day of a basic attack ability that is usually a ranged touch attack that does 1d6 + 1/2 level damage. That comes in very useful and it means caster characters resort to crossbows far less.

[jonnyfrag]

I have access to all the 4E stuff and have been reading it, but have not purchased any of it yet. Some is good, some is bad.

[Front Toward Everybody]

I have access to all the 4E stuff and have been reading it, but have not purchased any of it yet. Some is good, some is bad.

One thing that's been rightly said about 4e is that it's more a game meant to be played than a set of books meant to be read. I recommend doing a quick "delve" of a couple encounters to feel out how the system handles for you and your players.

Either way you decide to go, welcome to RPG.NET.

[Gnomick]

How old are your kids?
If they're old enough to chew through 3.x/Pathfinder's rules, then they're old enough to ask directly what they'd like to play. Otherwise 4e is more streamlined and user friendly. But you might want to get even simpler, with an OD&D retro clone or a homebrew hack of HeroScape or something.

Do any of them like playing fighting-men?
If any one of them do, then don't choose Pathfinder. They beefed up the Fighter in Pathfinder, but not enough to play on the same field as spellcasters (especially since they also beefed up spellcasters).

[Juriel]

4e isn't really a hugely different system from 3e - it has the same d20 system as the base, it's just heavily streamlined. Whereas Pathfinder is still basically 3.5 down to the tee.

In Pathfinder, magic is still unbalanced with warriors, whereas 4e allows both to contribute equally. So the kind of people your kids like to play might be important.

[Sunsword]

I prefer Pathfinder over 4E, in general. 4E just isn't the version of D&D for me (I'm 37). But I think my 8 year old son likes 4E better (mostly because of the Character Builder & the Power Cards).

Edit: I think I'd enjoy 4E more without the restraints on Action Dice & gaining more of them. But I like gonzo action.

[ENHenry]

I'm playing both, and prefer 4E, but I think you're better off checking with your children and seeing if they want to try out each one for a trial session or two and see which one they like better. Both have good free character generator/builders and you could try out sample encounters with each one at 1st level to see.

[djordi]

One thing to remember about 4e, beyond individual people's preferences, is that it is much easier for a DM to prepare for. I can prepare a customized adventure in 4e in the same time it would take me to prepare a customized encounter in 3e.

[KoboldLord]

I say go ahead and use your 3E books again. They're still a good game, and since you're creating a group out of whole cloth I don't see any reason to spend a whole lot of extra money when you can just use what you have. I'd say the same if you had 1E or 2E books, for that matter.

Eventually your kids are going to want to game with their peers from school or social activities, and that would be a good time to commit to a particular game. Do the gamers at your kids' school play 4E or Pathfinder? Do they even play WotC, or are they doing WoD or something? System isn't anywhere near as important as finding people to play with.

[Sebmojo]

I'd also recommend having a crack at the quickstart before making a decision. Also read this (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=6630) if you haven't already, it's awesome and lovely :)

[Shazbot79]

I'm going to echo the sentiment that the OP should give his kids the chance to decide.

[Joe_G_Kushner]

If you already have the 3.5 stuff, I see no reason not to go with it.

If you're having a problem running 3.5, then 4e is geared in many ways, towards you as the Game Master. Breaking the player bits off from the GM bits did a lot to solve a lot of problems that ECL, LA, and other equalizers that weren't equalizers allowed to creep in.

[Master Of Desaster]

I haven't tried playing/running Pathfinder as in my interpretation they did not change the parts of the 3.x systems that makes me angry, but instead added several even more (unnecessary detailed) stuff that make me cry - especially as a 90% of the time GM. However some rules bits were redone pretty nicely.

So I'm biased against PFRPG as I don't see the net gain for relearning the whole 3.x thing.

4E: It's incredibly streamlined and easy to play and On the GM side a lot of stuff was done to make running it a hell lot easier.
I do see the practical gains of the game over 3.x. But I'm not so fond of the "stomp 'em" attitude I seem to see everywhere ... And attitude counts on my rating scale. So I end up pretty much on neutral terrain.

If you want to get a better idea to help compare, WotC has a test drive of the 4e rules and a so-so adventure and preview of the character builder for levels 1-3. You can get them here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/TryDnD.aspx).

Which ever you decide, you're sure to find fans of it around here. Welcome to the forums!

Well note that the only thing I haven't found in the now downloadable stuff is a price list for goods - so "buying equipment" (as it is said to be common in 4e) is not an option for a test run adventure.

But basically you get everything else you need to run "Keep of the Shadowfell" (now a module you can download) using the "basic rules" (that include all the tricky stuff and a bunch of player characters) on ~ 100 pages.
There are a few references to the MM in KotS, but if you check the whole module, you'll even find that info in the module itself ...

And yep I'll run it tonight. We'll see how far we get with 4 hours of gaming.

[drnuncheon]

One main question I have is how does magic in Pathfinder work (in a nutshell) I get what 4e is doing with magic and for the most part approve since in my experience lower level wizards or sorcerors use up their spells and then hang out for the rest of the game. I am of the let the spells fly/cinematic type of DM.

If you're looking for a d20 variant and are considering Pathfinder, you might do worse than also taking a look at Fantasycraft. It takes the core of d20, improves on the best bits and eliminates the worst.

Specific to your question above, mages have spell points that regenerate per scene rather than per day (and eventually get abilities that keep letting them cast lower-level spells even after they run out).

J

[harpy]

Might want to check out this thread, Inheritors of 3.5 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=11019362) I started not too long ago. It gives an overview of options in between 3.5 and 4e.

[smug]

Paizo has made most of their ruleset available here:
Click and ye shall receive. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/)


That's all of the rules, I thought, rather than just most?

This SRD site (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/) is still being filled out but has better functionality, I'd say, plus it has a Firefox/IE search plugin written for it ([url=http://mycroft.mozdev.org/search-engines.html?name=pathfinder]here[/i], top link).

[jaerdaph]

I've been running a "D&D" game for my nephews (ages 10 and 7) successfully now for a few months using Microlite20 (http://www.microlite20.net) - a free, stripped down, easy to learn and prep version of d20. The rules were very easy for them to pick up quickly (it's a good teaching game for fundamentals of roleplaying). We've played through a few low level Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics with no conversion issues since Microlite20 is so stripped down and "rules lite". Since you already have a library of 3.5e/d20, this might be an economical way to go that will help teach the basics of the game.

[jaerdaph]

If you're looking for a d20 variant and are considering Pathfinder, you might do worse than also taking a look at Fantasycraft. It takes the core of d20, improves on the best bits and eliminates the worst.

If the game is for young children, I personally wouldn't recommend Spycraft/Fantasycraft which are more complex rules-wise than generic D&D/d20. Of course it all depends on the ages and the individual children.

[jaerdaph]

But I think my 8 year old son likes 4E better (mostly because of the Character Builder & the Power Cards).


Good point - those are familiar elements to children into CCGs and video games, which can help peak and keep their interest in traditional tabletop RPGs.

[itarakoturo]

Well note that the only thing I haven't found in the now downloadable stuff is a price list for goods - so "buying equipment" (as it is said to be common in 4e) is not an option for a test run adventure.
The Character Builder demo can also be found on the same page as the "Test Drive" rules and adventure, and the demo contains all the equipment and their prices. If you want to add items to your character, using the Builder is the way to go.

[drnuncheon]

If the game is for young children, I personally wouldn't recommend Spycraft/Fantasycraft which are more complex rules-wise than generic D&D/d20. Of course it all depends on the ages and the individual children.

Fantasycraft is much less complex than Spycraft. I wouldn't call it any worse in terms of what the player needs to know than 4e.

It also depends on how much of the rules-handling the DM is willing to do.

[Smartmonkey]

Good point - those are familiar elements to children into CCGs and video games, which can help peak and keep their interest in traditional tabletop RPGs.

One of the reasons I was so comfortable getting into 3e when I was 16 was that the mechanics reminded me strongly of Baldurs Gate 2.

[Sunsword]

If the game is for young children, I personally wouldn't recommend Spycraft/Fantasycraft which are more complex rules-wise than generic D&D/d20. Of course it all depends on the ages and the individual children.

I recognize that FC wasn't one of the OP's choices, but I disagree with this. Pathfinder is as complex as FC. FC is much more streamlined than Spycraft & better explained than 3.5, PF, or 4E. There is not a single fantasy concept I can't build with the FC core book. And I can play Dragons at level 1.

[jaerdaph]

I should probably add I wouldn't recommend 3e, 4e, or Pathfinder for young children either. Like I said earlier, based on my experience, I'd go with Microlite20. :)

[bobrunnicles]

As a player and GM of D&D/AD&D since the late 70s, I've played and enjoyed them all - no edition wars here :) HOWEVER I will say that as a GM I find 4E far easier to prep for than 3.xE, and I also find that 4E promotes the kind of party building that D&D always aspired to, but gives each role cool things to do and ways to help them perform that role more entertainingly. You probably do need a group of at least 3-4 players, though, for it to work as it's meant to - if I were running for just 1-2 players I would probably go back to 3.xE (or 2E and add some henchmen) because of the ease of multiclassing (which with a larger party was a nightmare).

How did your game go? Is it tonight or was it last night?

[jonnyfrag]

Thanks everyone for all the great info.
Kids are 11 and 15 and have played some 3.5 a few years back. (with a lot of house rules to streamline and simplify some things)
I went ahead and went with 4E. The good wound out beating the bad in my head. It is much more streamlined and once I got over 'it's different!' shock I find it should work quite well. For a DM, it really seems much easier. Starting with the Keep on Shadowfell probably this weekend and then ease into a home brew campaign.

After reading up on Pathfinder, I honestly couldn't see replacing 3.5 with it. Just not that much different to justify the purchase. Seems like a fine product (and the book is really nice!) but I kinda been there, done that..already have it.

oh and I did ask them and show them some of the differences and they both chose 4E... had their wheels spinning already with what they want to play etc...

[Tori Bergquist]

Well, I love pathfinder and 4E both for the different flavors, but I think you did right by going with 4E, as they will probably enjoy it more and find it quite entertaining. I don't think WoW experience is a requisite to understanding 4E, but the game itself is smooth enough to be readily grasped in the course of play, anyway.

Save Pathfinder for when you want more complexity, and although it might not look like much of a difference from 3.X, I've found it does a vastly better job at adjusting 3.5 to my taste with loads of small but profound changes...easier to show in play than to catch on a read-through, maybe. Of course, if you're just burned out on 3.5 in general, it could be understandable.

A third option to consider, although not necessary now I imagine, would have been Castles & Crusades, which is fairly rules-lite, but easily digested and loaded with potential in a more traditional format. I plan on saving my C&C books down the road for my kids some day, to serve as an intro to gaming for them; I started at age 10 and my sister at age 8, so I suspect one is never too young!

(NOTE: kids not yet in picture, wife and I are working on it)

[Scarik]

oh and I did ask them and show them some of the differences and they both chose 4E... had their wheels spinning already with what they want to play etc...

Well that right there is the only reason you really need isn't it? Whatever makes the players buy in better is what I use.

[jonnyfrag]

Well, I love pathfinder and 4E both for the different flavors, but I think you did right by going with 4E, as they will probably enjoy it more and find it quite entertaining. I don't think WoW experience is a requisite to understanding 4E, but the game itself is smooth enough to be readily grasped in the course of play, anyway.

Save Pathfinder for when you want more complexity, and although it might not look like much of a difference from 3.X, I've found it does a vastly better job at adjusting 3.5 to my taste with loads of small but profound changes...easier to show in play than to catch on a read-through, maybe. Of course, if you're just burned out on 3.5 in general, it could be understandable.

A third option to consider, although not necessary now I imagine, would have been Castles & Crusades, which is fairly rules-lite, but easily digested and loaded with potential in a more traditional format. I plan on saving my C&C books down the road for my kids some day, to serve as an intro to gaming for them; I started at age 10 and my sister at age 8, so I suspect one is never too young!

(NOTE: kids not yet in picture, wife and I are working on it)

Well, that's one thing that the practicing for is great fun!

I will check out the C&C stuff.
And yes, WoW isn't so much translatable to 4E as previous 3.5 experience is for sure. I had to get over the sticker shock but now that I look at it better and readjust my terminology it's not as totally different as I originally thought. I think that it's really just the first real rewrite of the rules since the video game RPG has become 'genetic knowledge.' I suspect many of us 'old farts' see pen and paper as distinctly different games whereas younger folks today see the video game rpg as the standard and pen and paper as an exotic type now. Have to word it to that crowd... Even within the computery rpg there has been such a growth and style change within itself that it's a fully matured style of game rich with history. Who could imagine way back in the day playing Zork or some of the Gold Box games playing something like EQ or WoW with literally millions of people? Geeks won the war and now rule the world.


oh, and you kids stay outta my yard!