[Actual Play] Midnight

[Future Villain Band]

We played our first game of Midnight last night. The basic gist was that we were slaves who managed, with the help of some mysterious benefactor, to escape. We then were forced to flee and eventually fight the orcs who were guarding us, a feat made easier by the massive clan of halflings who were also slaves and whom we had freed. Eventually, we got the halflings to a safe-zone and made our way to a dwarven freehold, where we planned out our next steps.

1) A shocking conclusion came to me, near the end of the adventure, that we were basically planning to play the Hamaas or Al Qaeda, and plotting strategic assassinations of legates and terrorist attacks on orcs. Sure, it's "freedom fighting" because we've all got Good alignments, but it was kind of a nasty wake-up -- I hope more is made of this by the GM. It probably wouldn't be possible in many other systems.

2) My original guess was right, and Midnight is very specifically a setting which I have no interest in running but am enjoying playing. Those who aren't interested in Midnight may want to look at somebody else running it, because it's a hoot -- the interesting dichotomy created by Midnight is that many of the things that are common elements in D&D become sinister in Midnight -- we had to scout out towns before we entered them to see if they were under the control of Izrador's forces, taverns full of orcs became places to avoid and possibly torch during the daytime, etc.

3) The magic system, from what I can see, worked fine, although we really didn't get to see it close up. The charms magic was pretty cool.

4) Races and classes are suitably more powerful in Midnight, although a 1st level game is still muy dangeroso. (I have no idea if that's actually words in Spanish.)

5) I'm very self-consciously trying to play a heroic leader type, which I haven't done in years, down to the inspirational speeches and pre-battle ponderings. The fact that my character is the last (or first) paladin as a concept makes playing him a hoot.

Anyway, I enjoyed it.

--Eric

[NPC Neel Krishnaswami]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan

1) A shocking conclusion came to me, near the end of the adventure, that we were basically planning to play the Hamaas or Al Qaeda, and plotting strategic assassinations of legates and terrorist attacks on orcs. Sure, it's "freedom fighting" because we've all got Good alignments, but it was kind of a nasty wake-up -- I hope more is made of this by the GM. It probably wouldn't be possible in many other systems.


If you want to play a heroic game, rather than terrorists, it's worth looking at the distinctions that the Geneva Conventions draw. An irregular force should stlll obey the laws of war: only attack legitimate military targets; do not deliberately target civilians; do not kill combatants who have surrendered, are injured too badly to continue fighting, or otherwise incapable of fighting back; do not take torture or hostages; treat prisoners well; and so on.

War will still be an ugly business, but your PCs can conduct themselves in such a fashion that their good alignment don't seem ironic or false. It will make achieving your goals harder, but in exchange you'll be able to regard your characters with respect and admiration.

[NPC Neel Krishnaswami]

Also, here's a link to the Geneva conventions:

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebCONVFULL?OpenView

[Ghola]

Very interesting. I'd like to see more updates as you continue, as I plan on running Midnight in the near future and want to see how it may go.

I also came to the conclusion that the PCs are likey to end up as "terrorists." I currently think of heroes in Midnight as being similar to the French Resistance during the Vichey years. I'm not sure how this will work with the standard alignment system (should we kill the Legate in his sleep, etc.), but I think that the moral dilemmas may be part of the fun.

Again, please keep us posted.

[Tanuki]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan

5) I'm very self-consciously trying to play a heroic leader type, which I haven't done in years, down to the inspirational speeches and pre-battle ponderings. The fact that my character is the last (or first) paladin as a concept makes playing him a hoot.


Who are you a paladin of? My impression was that Izrador is the only god in the setting.

PS: Glad to hear you like it. I've been trying to pimp this game to my group for months, and they aren't buying into my hype.

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by Tanuki


Who are you a paladin of? My impression was that Izrador is the only god in the setting.


My PC is a barbarian who has some bizarre sense that something isn't right -- that the world is horribly, grossly wrong, and that Izrador is at the root of it. He has visions of the old gods, and has the Faithful Heroic Path.

Whether or not he's really tapping into a higher power, or merely the race-memory of a higher power, or just mad, is something that the campaign will hopefully answer.

On a campaign planning level, I see the PC as either the first or last paladin, dedicated to somehow making contact with the old gods, or just an insane barbarian. It's all up to the GM. Regardless, I'm playing him as somebody who feels a higher calling but who knows it makes him foolish and even insane in the eyes of others, and so hides his candle beneath a bushel-basket.

--Eric

[Ghola]

Originally posted by Tanuki


Who are you a paladin of? My impression was that Izrador is the only god in the setting.

PS: Glad to hear you like it. I've been trying to pimp this game to my group for months, and they aren't buying into my hype.

If you take the Heoric Path of Guardian, you gain most of the paladin's abilities (and probably the outlook as well).

As for your players Tanuki, I think it takes a certain streak of masochism to like this setting. I kept mentioning aspects of Midnight that were gruesome/difficult/deadly to my group and always asked "Are your sure you want to do this?"

They say "Cool! When do we start?"

If your group has ever played CoC or any of the World of Darkness games you should be able to sell them on this one.

edit: oops, too slow! yeah, Faithful is a good choice too.

[Mike Zebrowski]

Originally posted by Tanuki
Who are you a paladin of? My impression was that Izrador is the only god in the setting.


Izrador is the only god that mortals can contact. All of the other gods are currently cut-off from the mortal releam.

Mike Z

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by NPC Neel Krishnaswami


If you want to play a heroic game, rather than terrorists, it's worth looking at the distinctions that the Geneva Conventions draw. An irregular force should stlll obey the laws of war: only attack legitimate military targets; do not deliberately target civilians; do not kill combatants who have surrendered, are injured too badly to continue fighting, or otherwise incapable of fighting back; do not take torture or hostages; treat prisoners well; and so on.

War will still be an ugly business, but your PCs can conduct themselves in such a fashion that their good alignment don't seem ironic or false. It will make achieving your goals harder, but in exchange you'll be able to regard your characters with respect and admiration.

I'm hoping it goes like that. I'd like to stay heroic, but I'm also interested in exploring some of the moral quandaries inherent in struggling against a superior force with sympathizers in local governments, and how we'll react to "traitors" among the populace.

The French Resistance idea that Cambot mentioned isn't far off from my earlier take on what we'd have to do. So far, we're just interested in orcs and legates (and all of the orcs we've seen have been legitimate military targets.) I'm interested in which path we take when we begin raiding human lands, where the leaders are quislings to Isrador, commanding orcs and basically buying into the whole evil government. From a potential plot standpoint, I'm interested in finding the difference between William Wallace in "Braveheart" and John Brown.

--Eric

[Gentleman Highwayman]

Whether Eric's group is terrorists or freedom fighters depends on who writes/sings the history. The Geneva Convention is a relatively new idea in human civilization and would be laughed at by medieval mindsets. Prisoners of war were often sold into slavery in many parts of the world. And remember that even the French Resistance and various partisans targeted collaborators as legitimate targets.

Thanks for the post Eric. I'll have a look at the book today and reconsider it. Sounds like a D&D world not in the clutches of Mammon.

Iain.

[Ghola]

Originally posted by Gentleman Highwayman
Whether Eric's group is terrorists or freedom fighters depends on who writes/sings the history. The Geneva Convention is a relatively new idea in human civilization and would be laughed at by medieval mindsets. Prisoners of war were often sold into slavery in many parts of the world. And remember that even the French Resistance and various partisans targeted collaborators as legitimate targets.

Thanks for the post Eric. I'll have a look at the book today and reconsider it. Sounds like a D&D world not in the clutches of Mammon.

Iain.

Good point about the medieval mindset. Something extra to consider, although it may re-open the alignment debates that have plagued D&D from the beginning. I am leaning toward defining Good-aligned rebels as those who hold at least some of the principles codified in the Convention.

Do you mean supplements when you say "the clutches of Mammon?" I feel that the main book really is all you need (in addition to the D&D core books), but there is a player supplement coming out this month and a "mega-adventure" to follow. If they demonstrate the same production value as Midnight I'll gladly snap them up.

These are the people who gave me a sci-fi game I only needed the players' and GM guides to play (Blue Planet) yet produced high-quality supplements that cried out for my $$$. I bought it all. Damn you FFG/Biohazard!

[Paka]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan


My PC is a barbarian who...

Sounds great. Could you give us a run-down on everyone else's PC?

Please keep updating the game. I just bought Midnight and I am excited to get a chance to run it.

Thanks.

[NPC Neel Krishnaswami]

Originally posted by Gentleman Highwayman
Whether Eric's group is terrorists or freedom fighters depends on who writes/sings the history. The Geneva Convention is a relatively new idea in human civilization and would be laughed at by medieval mindsets. Prisoners of war were often sold into slavery in many parts of the world. And remember that even the French Resistance and various partisans targeted collaborators as legitimate targets.



Claiming that an authentic medieval mindset would have rejected heroic and moral behavior is pointless. Midnight isn't the middle ages. No evil priest in reality could summon demons. There never were any such things as orcs. There's no such thing as an evil god trying to suck the life force from the entire universe.

What does matters is what the players think and what ethical problems they want to mess around with.

[glass]

Originally posted by Tanuki


Who are you a paladin of? My impression was that Izrador is the only god in the setting.


Am I to take that Izrador is not exactly a good guy?

glass.

[Lugaru]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan


4) Races and classes are suitably more powerful in Midnight, although a 1st level game is still muy dangeroso. (I have no idea if that's actually words in Spanish.)

--Eric

In spanish it would be Peligroso, although I have a soft spot for spanlish (english words mashed to sound latin).

[AusJeb]

Originally posted by NPC Neel Krishnaswami
An irregular force should stlll obey the laws of war: only attack legitimate military targets; do not deliberately target civilians; do not kill combatants who have surrendered, are injured too badly to continue fighting, or otherwise incapable of fighting back; do not take torture or hostages; treat prisoners well; and so on.

Originally posted by Eric BrennanSo far, we're just interested in orcs and legates (and all of the orcs we've seen have been legitimate military targets.) I'm
interested in which path we take when we begin raiding human lands, where the leaders are quislings to Isrador, commanding orcs and basically buying into the whole evil government. From a potential plot standpoint, I'm interested in finding the difference between William Wallace in "Braveheart" and John Brown.

The other person you may want to look to here is Mao. One of his doctrines was the use of force to deny legitimacy to your opponents by attacking infrastructure. If Isador's forces are unable to keep the roads open, unable to ensure the safe transport of goods and materials, their communications and control over an area will be lessened. The objective being to not just attack Isador's forces but to present your group as an alternative force for stability and control.

Jeb

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by glass


Am I to take that Izrador is not exactly a good guy?

glass.

Izrador was a god who up and waged war on the other gods. When the other gods laid the (literally) almighty smackdown on Izrador, he was thrown out of the heavens and crashed into earth, where his arrival closed off the connection to the heavenly Realm. Over a period of thousands of years, Izrador tried to corrupt and conquer the world, and succeeded a century ago. Now, the world is ruled by the forces of Izrador (except for the elven-wood and dwarf-holds, which are under constant and unstoppable siege,) and there is no afterlife or connection to the gods other than Izrador. The earth is his prison, and now he rules it.

Picture a cross between LotR if Sauron won and Call of Cthulhu, and you're on the right trap. Too grim for me to really enjoy running, but I'm digging play so far.

--Eric

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by Paka


Sounds great. Could you give us a run-down on everyone else's PC?

Please keep updating the game. I just bought Midnight and I am excited to get a chance to run it.

Thanks.

The other PCs are a dwarven Defender (kind of like a monk, but more aspected toward the idea of rebel slaves practising martial arts in the dead of night.) An elfling wildlander (ranger), and an elf -- er, I don't know what the elf is, to be honest.

As for the game itself, I'm having a great time, and the DM is also the kind of guy who's letting us decide for ourselves where we want to go. I'll be interested in discovering who the mysterious benefactor is, someday, but we seem more intent on fighting Izrador. Right now we're making our way to the elven lands so that we can use them as a base for our raids...the dwarven lands were ruled out because I don't have lowlight or darkvision. :)

I'll be very interested in seeing how this goes -- the posts in this thread have inspired me to look into how to wage a war like this, and I know the other players are stoked.

--Eric

[glass]

I just searched up the review, and I like the sound of this. Hope no-one minds if I ask a couple of questions.

Is there no PC accessible healing at all, or just very little?

The review says that only fighter, barbarian, and rogue (I think) survive intact. It mentions a couple (eg wizard) have become PrCs. What has happened to the others (eg Paladin, Bard). Have they gone away, or just changed.

glass.

[Matthew]

Does Midnight allow for new gods? Could you be the first cleric or paladin of a new god?

[Sangrolu]

Originally posted by glass
The review says that only fighter, barbarian, and rogue (I think) survive intact. It mentions a couple (eg wizard) have become PrCs. What has happened to the others (eg Paladin, Bard). Have they gone away, or just changed.

I don't have the book with me and I forget if they weaseled healing spells in under channeller somewhere (it mostly uses wizard spells, so I don't think so) or in the druid PrC.

I am, however, pretty sure that some of the heroic paths have healing spells.

[EarthsShadow]

There are at least two paths that have healing capabilities, but there is no cleric class for players to play. All clerics follow the dark god that rules the earth, and he is the ONLY god that anyboyd could tap into, at least officially.

I would think that if somebody house ruled that there were other gods to touch, then it would change the fabric of what Midnight is, and change it to a point where it is no longer Midnight.

I am just about to finish Dragons of a Vanished Moon and so far there are some similarities between Midnight and the 5th age in dragonlance, where the evil god whatever her name is stole the planet and through her servants rule the planet and no other gods are allowed to touch the planet because they don't know where it is and how her forces are taking over and ruling over everything they conquer and the other races are struggling to fight against her. I haven't finished the book so I am sure it doesn't end up this way, but so far its really cool.

As for the darkness feel to Midnight, this is the only campaign setting in which I could see myself actually running D&D again. Either that, or convert the book to some other system and go with it that way.

[Ayrizale]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan


The other PCs are a dwarven Defender (kind of like a monk, but more aspected toward the idea of rebel slaves practising martial arts in the dead of night.) An elfling wildlander (ranger), and an elf -- er, I don't know what the elf is, to be honest.

The Elf is a Fighter. For those that would like a little more info on the characters, and have a copy of Midnight, their Heroic Paths are:

Eric's Human Barbarian: Faithful
Elf Fighter: Ironborn
Dwarf Defender: Ironborn
Elfling Wildlander: Warg

Later,

Lael

[Gentleman Highwayman]

Originally posted by cambot
Do you mean supplements when you say "the clutches of Mammon?" I feel that the main book really is all you need (in addition to the D&D core books), but there is a player supplement coming out this month and a "mega-adventure" to follow. If they demonstrate the same production value as Midnight I'll gladly snap them up.

No, I mean that many D&D parties seem to adventure for the gold and magic. They act more like rockstars than heros. I really loved running Dark Sun because the players just didn't seem to care about material wealth so much as high minded ideals. Maybe those in your face oppressive settings are the only way people can rise to the occassion.

And on a side note I own all of FFG's Blue Planet and Dragonstar stuff.


Originally posted by NPC Neel Krishnaswami
Claiming that an authentic medieval mindset would have rejected heroic and moral behavior is pointless. Midnight isn't the middle ages. No evil priest in reality could summon demons. There never were any such things as orcs. There's no such thing as an evil god trying to suck the life force from the entire universe.

I don't think a single person here could even fathom the medieval mindset, but it does bug me quite a bit that many games with early renaissance technology all seem to have an idealized 20th century mindset. The idea of progress came about because of the rapid change of the Industrial Revolution.

My point still stands that the Geneva Convention isn't universally adhered to now even by it signitors. And I don't think international conventions are synonymous with morality. It goes back to the argument in Clerks. If the Death Star II is blown up with a bunch of independent contracts on board are the Rebels still heros? Or did the contractors choose sides when they accepted the job from the Empire? (Remember, aiding someone who you know is evil is no excuse even if your life is on the line.)

Iain.

[Sangrolu]

Originally posted by Ayrizale
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eric Brennan
[B]Eric's Human Barbarian: Faithful
Elf Fighter: Ironborn
Dwarf Defender: Ironborn
Elfling Wildlander: Warg

So Lael's running? Interesting... if I wasn't so busy, I'd beg to be let in.

(I notice you lack a channeler... when do you run? :) )

[Ghola]

No, I mean that many D&D parties seem to adventure for the gold and magic. They act more like rockstars than heros. I really loved running Dark Sun because the players just didn't seem to care about material wealth so much as high minded ideals. Maybe those in your face oppressive settings are the only way people can rise to the occassion.

Actually, magic is rare enough in Midnight that characters might never see a +1 sword, for example. Small one-use items called Charms or perhaps potions might be encountered more often... but possessing any magic item is to risk an automactic death sentence from Izrador's followers.

Coins, precious metals and gems are essentially worthless as the continuing war and oppression have wrecked the economy. Barter is the only real method. One example of how barter works in Midnight features a beggar trading a bag of uncut diamonds to a farmer for a place to sleep.

Hell, the book suggests giving food as treasure! Fresh food can be hard to get sometimes since the Orcs and corrupt human nobles take virtually everything for the war effort.

[Ayrizale]

Originally posted by glass
I just searched up the review, and I like the sound of this. Hope no-one minds if I ask a couple of questions.

Is there no PC accessible healing at all, or just very little?

The review says that only fighter, barbarian, and rogue (I think) survive intact. It mentions a couple (eg wizard) have become PrCs. What has happened to the others (eg Paladin, Bard). Have they gone away, or just changed.

glass.

Healing Magic isn't that difficult to come by. A first level Channeler can have the Cure Light Wounds spell, and any character of any class (with the two right feats (pardon the pun)) can cast Cure Light Wounds by the time they are 2nd level.

Paladins, Bards, and Rangers in particular have simply gone away. The Rangers and Paladins are somewhat replaced by the Wildlander. The Wildlander is more Ranger than Paladin, but he does gain the Smite Evil ability at 4th level.

Lael

[NPC Jeremy]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan

1) A shocking conclusion came to me, near the end of the adventure, that we were basically planning to play the Hamaas or Al Qaeda, and plotting strategic assassinations of legates and terrorist attacks on orcs. Sure, it's "freedom fighting" because we've all got Good alignments, but it was kind of a nasty wake-up -- I hope more is made of this by the GM. It probably wouldn't be possible in many other systems.


I've never understood why so many people have trouble with this - whether it's terrorism or 'freedom fighting' depends not on the motives, but who they target.

Hamas and Al Qaeda are terrorists because they deliberately target civilians. Skyscrapers, pizzerias, discos, schools, are not military targets and so places that shouldn't be targeted deliberately.

If you only target military or paramilitary forces (like police), then you're "freedom fighters" (or guerillas)

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by cambot

Hell, the book suggests giving food as treasure! Fresh food can be hard to get sometimes since the Orcs and corrupt human nobles take virtually everything for the war effort.

Yep. That was a wakeup call -- I stole a bunch of spices and food goods from the captain of the orcs' house, and I was able to use it to barter extensively. When we let a batch of halflings go, I knew to give them some of it as trade goods...

A fascinating world. And I'm in agreement that in the grim, oppressive worlds like Midnight and Dark Sun acquisition of goods becomes an instant non-issue, unless those goods be weapons. I was fully prepared in our first combat to use a rock and a shard of broken glass...

--Eric

[mmadsen]

A shocking conclusion came to me, near the end of the adventure, that we were basically planning to play the Hamaas or Al Qaeda, and plotting strategic assassinations of legates and terrorist attacks on orcs. Sure, it's "freedom fighting" because we've all got Good alignments, but it was kind of a nasty wake-up -- I hope more is made of this by the GM.
As others have pointed out, guerrilla war isn't the same as terrorism, as Den Beste explains in his Theory and Practice of Terrorism (http://denbeste.nu/essays/terrorism.shtml):
"Terrorism" is actually misnamed, because the goal of it is not to sow terror (though that is a common tactic). The goal of terrorism is to sow discord and disruption and to provoke reprisals from your much stronger opponent. One of the paradoxes of terrorism is that when your opponent commits a major act of violence against your people, you (the terrorist) win and you become stronger.

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by mmadsen As others have pointed out, guerrilla war isn't the same as terrorism, as Den Beste explains in his Theory and Practice of Terrorism:


Fair enough. I was using the dictionary definition of "sowing terror, esp. as a means of coercion."

Whatever the case, dickering over definitions is less interesting to me than seeing where it goes in-game, and what limits get set for it by the party as we go. Right now, everything is satisfactorily black & white, but the world has a lot potential for these kinds of questions, despite the fact that it's a god of evil we're fighting and those are orcs as his main troops. I suspect Lael will make it as complex as possible, when we begin our little war.

--Eric

[Matthew]

Ahem. ::clears throat::


Originally posted by Matthew
Does Midnight allow for new gods? Could you be the first cleric or paladin of a new god?

[NPC GregB]

Channelers do have access to healing spells. The only spells they do not have access to are those exclusive to clerics or paladins (e.g., restoration, raise dead, resurrection, etc.). Some spells also do not work due to the world's isolation from the other planes (e.g., teleport, etherealness, astral projection, etc.).

Greg
FFG

[NPC GregB]

Hey Matt,

By the book, the only way you get new gods is if a) some being that exists in the material world (whether a mortal or an outsider trapped there at the time of the Sundering) ascends to that status, or b) someone figures out a way to pierce the veil that separates Aryth from the other planes, thereby reestablishing contact with the divine.

Greg
FFG

[Ghola]

Originally posted by Matthew
Ahem. ::clears throat::


The short answer is "No."

Izrador has cut off all access to the Outer Planes. Gods can't get in, souls of the deceased can't get out.

There is ancestor-worship, placation of various spirits (elementals, demons, and some entirely imaginary beings), and plenty of cults. But none of these, as far as has been revealed, can grant followers access to divine power.

Some folks at the yahoo group have proposed that letting the gods back in, or at least reviving belief in them (the world has been without clerics for millenia). The setting's designers haven't attacked these ideas (to their credit) but they have stated that to do that may change the tone of Midnight and such efforts are outside the scope of their original intentions.

edit: Pretty quick on the draw, there, Greg. While you're here, where's my Crown of Shadow? Deliver soon, lest I set the hounds upon thee!

[Matthew]

Originally posted by NPC GregB
Hey Matt,

By the book, the only way you get new gods is if a) some being that exists in the material world (whether a mortal or an outsider trapped there at the time of the Sundering) ascends to that status, or b) someone figures out a way to pierce the veil that separates Aryth from the other planes, thereby reestablishing contact with the divine.

Greg
FFG

Cool, thanks Greg. What would happen if the PCs started spreading the word about a New God? Created belief? I mean, in the absence of an actual god, if enough people believed, would it be reasonable for a GM to decide that a god would form out of that belief?


Ah, by the way, you're not in the market for any Lord of the Rings or Star Trek books you think would be work a copy of Midnight? :)

Matthew Colville
Decipher, Inc.
Identifyig himself so Greg knows who he's talking to.

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by cambot

Some folks at the yahoo group have proposed that letting the gods back in, or at least reviving belief in them (the world has been without clerics for millenia). The setting's designers haven't attacked these ideas (to their credit) but they have stated that to do that may change the tone of Midnight and such efforts are outside the scope of their original intentions.


Within the scope of Midnight, I find the existence of the Faithful (and Wisdom-oriented Channelers) as problematic, especially since the universe has become this prison/playground for Izrador and Izrador alone. I'd have been a little happier if all possible nods to good gods and their power was omitted.

With that said, it's one reason why I wanted to play one of the Faithful -- is the PC nuts? Is he really tapping some pinhole of god-energy? Is he tapping human belief? Is it his own will? Who the hell knows?

--Eric

[Ghola]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan


Within the scope of Midnight, I find the existence of the Faithful (and Wisdom-oriented Channelers) as problematic, especially since the universe has become this prison/playground for Izrador and Izrador alone. I'd have been a little happier if all possible nods to good gods and their power was omitted.

With that said, it's one reason why I wanted to play one of the Faithful -- is the PC nuts? Is he really tapping some pinhole of god-energy? Is he tapping human belief? Is it his own will? Who the hell knows?

--Eric

There has been a suggestion (I think from Greg) that the Heroic Paths may be due to reincarnation of past heroes. If you have Faithful or Guardian it may mean you have retained some of the power a former paladin or cleric one had... kind of a "grandfather clause" that allows a soul to keep on fighting Izrador.

I like this idea, especially since it hints that the other gods may be finding a way around the Veil of Shadow.

[Wyrmdog]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan
Is he really tapping some pinhole of god-energy? Is he tapping human belief? Is it his own will? Who the hell knows?

--Eric It might be cool if the real explanation was that he's unconsciously a sort of mystical hacker who's tapped into a shadowed area of Izrador's own power and siphons it off unbeknownst to him or to Izrador.

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by Wyrmdog
It might be cool if the real explanation was that he's unconsciously a sort of mystical hacker who's tapped into a shadowed area of Izrador's own power and siphons it off unbeknownst to him or to Izrador.

You and I must share the same brain or something. The original character pitch I did to Lael was a renegade Legate who was using Izrador's own power against him -- I tried to sell the God-to-Cleric relationship as a network of energy, and you could hack the network if you wanted to and knew how. It didn't sell, but it was definitely an idea I had in the back of my mind for later use.

--Eric

[NPC GregB]

Originally posted by Matthew

Cool, thanks Greg. What would happen if the PCs started spreading the word about a New God? Created belief? I mean, in the absence of an actual god, if enough people believed, would it be reasonable for a GM to decide that a god would form out of that belief?


Sure it's reasonable -- the individual GM would have to decide what works for his game. It is beyond the scope of the book as presented, however.

Note that there *are* religions, religious faiths, on Aryth -- peoples and cultures still believe in gods, despite the fact that their priests are no more likely to work magic and miracles than anyone else. One might take the existence of these religions and the apparent lack of any gods about (other than Izrador) as textual evidence that belief is *not* sufficient to create divinity. To each his own, I say.

The closest author comes to supporting this kind of story arc is a bit (the Last Fane) that actually got cut from the final text (by the author, I might add, not by me!). Check out message #340 on the Midnight d20 Yahoo! Group for the text.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Midnight-D20/




Ah, by the way, you're not in the market for any Lord of the Rings or Star Trek books you think would be work a copy of Midnight? :)



Sure, email me: greg@fantasyflightgames.com

Greg
FFG

[mmadsen]

Fair enough. I was using the dictionary definition of "sowing terror, esp. as a means of coercion."
I'm sorry; my goal wasn't to "dicker over definitions" but to point out an interesting aspect of terrorism: it doesn't work if your enemy isn't trying to maintain (modern, liberal) moral legitimacy. If you burn down the Orcs' barracks in the middle of the night, they put the whole town to the torch and cut down fleeing women and children. They're not worried about committing atrocities; atrocities keep the populace in line.

[Denys]

Originally posted by NPC GregB


The closest author comes to supporting this kind of story arc is a bit (the Last Fane) that actually got cut from the final text (by the author, I might add, not by me!). Check out message #340 on the Midnight d20 Yahoo! Group for the text.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Midnight-D20/

Greg
FFG

For the sake of simplicity, that text (by Jeff Barber) is this:

The Last Fane
An ancient elven canticle handed down from the First Age tells of a great
fane, a temple, that once stood as testament to the power of the gods and the
faith of mortal kind. The story claims that the fane was the highest
manifestation of divine power on all of Aryth, a gift from the gods
themselves. The tale goes on to tell of the powerful magics the priests of
the temple could wield and how in the wars against the Shadow of the North
the fane stood as a singular force in defeating the dark power. The legend
also tells of the betrayal of Vyer the Corrupted and the fall of the Temple
Knights in the final days of the First Age.

Quietly, as all such tales must be told in these times, the legend goes on to
say that the wise priests had taken steps to protect the holy fortress, and
in the moments before it fell let loose a great magic that blasted the Night
Kingsâ?? armies and tore the fane from this world, protecting it from final
destruction. Masked by the last vestiges of the powers of light manifest in
the world, the tale says the temple survived the pogrom of the Shadowâ??s
minions, standing through the yearsâ??hidden, dormant, waiting.

The Last Fane, hidden from the forces of Izrador, lies waiting for the rise
of a band of heroes with the strength and cunning to reach its secret place
and restore the templeâ??s power, reforging its bond with the gods. Only in
this way claims the legend can Izradorâ??s black hold on the world be broken.

This ancient canticle is retold across the known lands, in many versions and
many forms. There are those who claim it is little more that a fairy tale
offered to succor the weak. Others believe it is simply a myth describing a
place lost to time and war. None-the-less the promise the story holds is a
precious and powerful thing. A thing in which many believe, for which many
have quested and many have died.

The dwarven stories describe the Fane as a vast fortress of stone carved from
the living rock of the Mountains of the Sun, high on the stony flanks of
Altimara. They claim its halls, chambers and passages reach to the very core
of the world drawing power from the depths of heaven â?? for as every good
dwarf knows heaven is not in the sky above but deep within the holy earth.

The elven tales describe a mighty, enchanted oak tree forming a living tower
at the heart of Erethor. The highest branches of this tree are said to hold
up the very floor of heaven and serve as a divine stair for the souls of the
elven dead. The stories also claim that every tree and bush throughout the
world is descended from this one ancient oak, each therefore sharing a tiny
spark of its holy essence.

The gnomes and halflings have as many different tales of the Last Fane as
they have storytellers. Some say it is buried beneath a pile of gold as big
as a mountain. Others claim it was magicked into the heart of a perfect
diamond and given as a wedding gift to a pure hearted halfling maiden.
Another tale says that the dragon-kin have taken the temple, and keep it
hidden and safe until the gods return to claim their own. In these tales of
the little people there are two common threads. Not one story denies the
existence of the Last Fane, and in every one, a great hero, albeit one of
reduced stature, discovers the temple and restores its power.

Even the viler races have stories of the Fane, though most tell of its fall
as one of the greatest orc victories of the Ages. They tell of how the temple
had been the single greatest threat to the Shadow and its armies and how
destroying it assured victory. Though tragic from the perspective of the
noble races, these stories none-the-less offer testament to the power of the
Last Fane.

The human stories though, are the most telling. The most desperate tend to
cling to any hope, and as humans have been forsaken it is in their legends
that the promise of the Last Fane is most sublime. The human stories tell of
a massive fortress of black stone atop a great hill. The keep is said to have
stood as the central link in the Fortress Wall of the Northern Marches. The
tales tell of unbreakable walls, and deadly war machines. They tell of the
Temple Knights, a force of the bravest soldiers and battle mages ten thousand
strong, sworn to protect the Fane and the priests within. The stories tell
woefully of the betrayal of the Vyer and the cataclysmic destruction of the
temple walls, the valiant yet futile deaths of the Knights and the tragic
fall of the keep.

The stories do not end here however. There are many versions of what happened
as the keep fell, but all claim some powerful divine magics smote the forces
of the enemy and wrested the fortress from their grasp. The tales claim that
the gods themselves, unable to suffer the destruction of the last link to
their mortal children, forced past the dark veil separating them from Aryth,
and placed a powerful glamour over the battlefield, driving off the dark
forces and securing the Fane until such time as its power might be restored.

One thread common to the countless legends of the Last Fane is its link to
heaven and the promise of its divine power. A universal hope exists that the
temple can be restored and used to force back the Shadow of the North and the
black veil that hides Aryth from heaven. Strangely, the nature of this power,
let alone how it might be used, is seldom described in temple legends. Some
take this as more evidence that the temple is nothing but fable, yet others
believe the mystery is only further proof of the Faneâ??s divine power.

Divine power aside, every legend seems to agree that the temple must also be
overflowing with wonders and riches of every kind. Dwarven tales tell of a
great hall paved in diamonds, and elven stories claim that the spring water
that feeds the temple well can revive the dead. There are stories of ancient
weapons of deadly arcane power and odd mystical devices that can magic food
from the air, turn the undead to dust, stop time, see into the future or even
change the past.

Despite the common threads found in these stories their greater disparity
seems to rob them of validity. The dwarves claim the temple is to be found in
one place, the elves say another. The other races make different claims
still, and it is this inconsistency that feeds the words of the nay-sayers
and the woe of the hopeless. The desperate cling to the hope the Fane offers
yet fear the legend is only thatâ??a legend.

The shear number of fables about the Last Fane make any serious quest to
simply find it a formidable challenge. Great warriors and wise channelers
have searched countless abandoned keeps and lost ruins without success. There
are even rumors that a secret brotherhood, founded long ago by the last
survivor of the Temple Knights has been growing and is systematically hunting
for the Last Fane. The rumors are that they too have yet to find anything but
infested dungeons and long crumbled towers.

The Pact as it is known to its members is a secret band of the faithful
dedicated to finding the Last Fane and using it to restore the gods of Aryth.
They do not have membership rolls, and there are no meeting halls, conclaves
or other public gatherings. The members do not boast of their involvement and
only recruit new members from trusted allies who have proven themselves. In
small groups they scour the lands in search of rumors, stories and clues that
might lead them to discover the temple. Their lives are dangerous and they
are often found out by the minions of the Night Kings, or sadder yet,
betrayed by hungry peasants for a handful of coins. These disparate groups
avoid contact with each other so as not to draw undue attention to
themselves, but each answers to a secretive hierarchy whose members are
referred too only as Brothers or Sisters. This hierarchy in turn passes the
information they gather to mysterious, hooded messengers that periodically
call unexpectedly in the dark of night. These couriers then disappear into
the wilds, always heading west, to deliver the information they have
gathered. Where they go and to whom is as much a secret as the the location
of the Last Fane itself.

The Last Fane in a Campaign
A dungeon master can use the idea of the Last Fane in a variety of ways in
his Midnight campaigns. He can chose to ignore it entirely or simply use it
as a fanciful legend adding the flavor of history to his game. He can chose
to use the temple as a plot tool with which to lead, motivate or cajole playe
rs to some end. The dungeon master can also use the temple as it is
presented, as a skeleton on which to hang the flesh of a series of adventures
or an extended campaign.

A long search for the temple provides the characters with motivations and
goals, and adds consequence to their adventures. If the characters are
members of the Pact the dungeon master can lead the party anywhere in the
world of Midnight and have them encounter anyone or anything he wishes as
they search for clues, follow leads and verify rumors. Any ruin, old castle,
keep or dungeon might actually be the Last Fane so that any adventure
featuring such a place can motivate the party and justify even the most
earnest dungeon crawling. The temple provides a ready made campaign structure
that readily allows the dungeon master to craft a classic heroic quest.

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by mmadsen

I'm sorry; my goal wasn't to "dicker over definitions" ...

Sorry if that came out as too brusque -- I just didn't want a massive side-trek into arguing over fundamental definitions as to who's a terrorist and who's a freedom-fighter. I misconstrued the point of your post, clearly, and apologize.


but to point out an interesting aspect of terrorism: it doesn't work if your enemy isn't trying to maintain (modern, liberal) moral legitimacy. If you burn down the Orcs' barracks in the middle of the night, they put the whole town to the torch and cut down fleeing women and children. They're not worried about committing atrocities; atrocities keep the populace in line.

But isn't there a point where terrorism does begin to affect the enemy, even if they haven't rested their rule on the basis of modern liberal politics? Reciprocal atrocities, as it were? Although it's religious in nature, visiting the plagues of Egypt on Pharaoh strike me as fitting into this mold, as does certain Mongol tactics and Basil the Bulgar-Slayer's blinding 99 out of 100 men and leaving the last one with one eye in order to guide the others home.

Now, these examples are usually being sent from one legitimate group towards another, but if a band of ... let's call them freedom-fighters, were to use those kinds of tactics against a superior foe, would it still be terrorism? Psychological warfare? I'm not saying one way or the other what it would be, I'm simply musing.

I mean, if our band of freedom fighters found an orc-controlled city and set loose an angel of death to take every first born male from the orcs, wouldn't that be effectively terrorism? You make it so the enemy populace just doesn't want to fight anymore by sowing terror?

Just wondering -- at this point I don't know how relevant it would be to our actual campaign,

--Eric

[Wyrmdog]

Originally posted by Eric Brennan


You and I must share the same brain or something. Hahahaha...maybe we're on a timeshare, eh?

How about this alternate take: Imagine a guy who was once a Legate and now finds himself a prisoner or slave like you started, his mind selectively wiped and his past gone.

He wasn't killed because, perhaps, some vital and inaccessible piece of information is still stuck in his brain and Izrador wants it out. So in place of death, he was stripped of his identity and sent to be a slave, where it was hoped he would break and the weakness of his mind would let the mind-rape begin.

Instead, he's now free and waging guerilla war using the pieces of magic/divinity he remembers and there's nothing Izrador can do to cut him off short of cutting off the others who draw power from him.

On the downside, maybe he's easier to track...maybe that old evil persona still lurks under the surface...what if he is an unwitting double-agent?

[mmadsen]

I mean, if our band of freedom fighters found an orc-controlled city and set loose an angel of death to take every first born male from the orcs, wouldn't that be effectively terrorism? You make it so the enemy populace just doesn't want to fight anymore by sowing terror?
That's simply Total War.

[Paka]

I mean, if our band of freedom fighters found an orc-controlled city and set loose an angel of death to take every first born male from the orcs, wouldn't that be effectively terrorism? You make it so the enemy populace just doesn't want to fight anymore by sowing terror?


That wouldn't be terrorism. That'd be Passover!

"And Moses went into the North, stood before Izrador and the four Night Kings and said, "Shadow of the North, let my people go!"

[SteppenRazer]

Am I the only one who reads "Fast Lane" every time they see "Last Fane"?

On topic: This thread is helping in my quest to badger my DM into getting Midnight

[Praetorian]

Originally posted by mmadsen

That's simply Total War.

Nope, a civilian targetting non-military (or even government) in a way very similar to Passover would be labeled terrorism by modern day standards. Maybe you could get away with being called Vigilianteism if a modern society was sympathetic. But total war? No way- not even by the most libera of standards (especially because war is actually defined pretty well)

Seriously, Eric, I would just say let the whole terrorism thing go and enjoy the exploration of the subject from a disconnected/fantasy POV. Trying to label one act as specifically terrorism is all but futile... hell, even scholars who study the topic day-in-and-day-out can't come to a concensus.

Think of it this way (if it helps): the Solomanic Knights from early Gragonlance books were a downtrodden organization, reviled by much of the population and actively hunted by the bad guys. However, they continued the good fight, helping the people (even when they did not want help) and taking the fight to their enemies. Were they terrorists? Probably not by most standards- and it certainly made a great heroic story.

Just a few thoughts...

[Future Villain Band]

Originally posted by Praetorian

Seriously, Eric, I would just say let the whole terrorism thing go and enjoy the exploration of the subject from a disconnected/fantasy POV. Trying to label one act as specifically terrorism is all but futile... hell, even scholars who study the topic day-in-and-day-out can't come to a concensus.
\

You're right. During actual play, I doubt labels will even come up, and right now I'm just marveling at where the game took us. I'll be interested in labeling actions only in a post-game "How the hell did we get to the point where we're blowing up taverns...?" kinda way. I doubt it will get that far -- I was just stunned during our planning session when we sounded like Quantrill's guerillas. I suspect we'll keep to shooting Union orcs rather than burning the townsfolk of Lawrence, KS.

Besides, it's all moot because in an alignment system we have carte blanche to commit atrocities against Evil creatures if we're good. :)

(The two statements about atrocities and the use of destructive force against taverns above were jokes, and only jokes. The game will not go there.)

--Eric

[Praetorian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eric Brennan

I suspect we'll keep to shooting Union orcs rather than burning the townsfolk of Lawrence, KS.

G'damn Union Orcs. Live Free or Die! :)

Besides, it's all moot because in an alignment system we have carte blanche to commit atrocities against Evil creatures if we're good. :)

Which, tounge-in-cheek or not is a very interesting statement that I am sure has been discussed somewhere before. Alignment, in the case where someone plays a less-than-heroic character does serve a useful purpose in allowing the players to do things they might rationally think are questionable.

Funny that, alignment actually serves a useful purpose.

Hm (at the risk of hijacking the thread), on a similar note, anyone run or played "A Splintered Peace" (I think that is what it is called). IIRC it deals with something like racial divides and race hatred- something that in our world would be quite objectionable but might be quite interesting in the context of a fantasy world... kinda like what we are talking about with Midnight.

[Paka]

www.againsttheshadow.org is a new fan site worth looking into if you are interested.

And I'm not just saying that because the plot hooks are by me either. Well, okay, maybe I am.


I was thinking of taking alignment out of the game. Detect Evil would be Detect Shadow which would detect a direct link to Izrador.