S - the roleplaying system

[Andrew Martin]

S is at: http://valley.150m.com/S/S.html
S is a roleplaying system. Please comment.

:cool:

[NPC Whymme]

I seem to recall that the last thread you posted about S, died. Which means that people had nothing more to reply to that thread. So.. did you make any changes to your system? Did you add things? What new things can we see if we look at it again? It would be nice if you mentioned that.

Whymme

[Patrick Chipman]

I think the regulars of AoGD are just trying to get the discussion rolling again -- and one good way to do that, IMHO, is to solicit commentary on an existing system.

Now, while we're on the subject of S, I like some of the interesting takes on normal game design aspects, like turn-based combat and advancement. The idea of simultaneous resolution by rolling a lot of dice is, AFAIK, untried, and the idea of having skills that advance together due to their containment by another skill is an intriguing take on simulationist (god, I hate that term) character advancement. The skirmish system is fast and effective, although probably not tactically accurate enough for most wargamers. The dueling system is intriguing, but seems to be aimed more at tacticians, rather than average players.

This is not to say that S is without flaws, however. One problem is that the container skills don't necessarily advance over time; in fact, many people do not get better at physical skills (Species) or cultural skills (Culture) as time passes. In fact, one could argue very solidly from established research that physical abilities decrease over time after an early peak point (I'd cite, but alas, I haven't a journal with a relevant article handy).

The magic system is also seemingly out of balance for a power-heavy world, as it makes casting powerful spells seriously problematic, due to the fact that compensations (required for any spell of Power +3 or higher) reduce Power in a way that is far out of proportion with their costs. There's also an issue about healing needing an arguably permanent duration in order to work (though this does depend on one's point of view), and the fact that non-component spells of any efficacy are almost impossible to perform without weird compensations (what's the use of a non-component spell if it needs a sacrifice, or hours of meditation to cast?). None of these issues are explained by a metaphysic, which is why (IMHO) magic has no place in generic systems.

As a minor side note, I'm also completely at a loss to understand why a section for easy tasks is included. I can think of no situation -- nor any degree of GM sadism -- that would require a person roll for a task that they could normally complete unless some probabilistic trouble got in the way.

Those issues aside, I think the system has its uses, especially for Fudge players looking for a more complex and detailed system. The large numbers of dice of varying types makes this system a bit daunting to get into for new players, who usually only have one type of die unless they come from D&D.

Personally, some aspects of the game bug me, but for no other reason besides personal preference. The use of a declaration/action combat system in which characters mysteriously know the actions of their opponents strikes me as highly unrealistic (which is why System X uses initiative/action two phase combat rounds) and superfluous, and I don't think that magic systems can be described generically, as they're tied directly to the metaphysic of a game world. To be fair, the rest of a game system is tied to the game world, but on more of a genre basis (realistic genres vs. pulp genres, for instance) and less on an individual game basis.

[Andrew Martin]

The next thing that's going to happen (after I write corrections, add examples, incorporate recent play test experience and so on), is combining the best of S and Zero System. I'll also incorporate some generic setting stuff, like cybernetics and magic systems, as well as soft-style martial arts. I should have the large scale battle system done as well, where 1/300th scale miniatures of vehicles, VTOLs and aerospace, are used along with a D6 to aid in formation and unit integrity. This should be semi-compatible with Dirtside II and Spearhead.

[Andrew Martin]

Patrick wrote:
> The dueling system is intriguing, but seems to be aimed more at tacticians,...

It's intended to directly implement narrative combat into a game system. But the text lacks examples to show this! This is my fault and I'll do better when I can allocate some time.

> This is not to say that S is without flaws, however. One problem is that the container skills don't necessarily advance over time; in fact, many people do not get better at physical skills (Species) or cultural skills (Culture) as time passes. In fact, one could argue very solidly from established research that physical abilities decrease over time after an early peak point (I'd cite, but alas, I haven't a journal with a relevant article handy).

There are definite differences between reality described in S and the real world. This could be one of them. For simplicity and to avoid character niche disappearing or "mushing" together, I use linear advancement, which many, many people disagree with. Instead I limit advancement by medieval lifespan -- most people die before high skill levels are reached. For Modern and Near Future times, together with SuperHeroes and Vampires, the skill system allows for unlimited skill advancement, but with still a small element of risk in combat.

> The magic system is also seemingly out of balance for a power-heavy world, as it makes casting powerful spells seriously problematic, due to the fact that compensations (required for any spell of Power +3 or higher) reduce Power in a way that is far out of proportion with their costs.

I'll have to check that part again and give more examples. It's been transferred across from the skirmish system, which has been used on the table top quite a lot.

> There's also an issue about healing needing an arguably permanent duration in order to work (though this does depend on one's point of view),

Oops! Bad explanation on my part! Permanent duration is permanent duration of magic like a magic sword or protection from arrows spell. A healing spell just makes a change, eg from wounded to unwounded, then ends. A permanent healing spell, goes on healing forever! Much like embuing someone with regeneration! Healing magic is intended to be the reverse of injuring magic, which is similar to hitting someone with a sword.

> and the fact that non-component spells of any efficacy are almost impossible to perform without weird compensations (what's the use of a non-component spell if it needs a sacrifice, or hours of meditation to cast?).

We found lots of uses for this! Players with evil spell casters on the table top system commonly sacrificed their own followers to achieve higher power effects! Also, hours of meditation allows for large effects to be created, particularly with the addition of innocent sacrifices who need to be rescued by brave heroes.

> None of these issues are explained by a metaphysic, which is why (IMHO) magic has no place in generic systems.

I need to explain this better. This magic system is intended to be as generic as possible, and be compatible with as many forms of magic as I could find at the time, including psionic, magic, and miracles.

> As a minor side note, I'm also completely at a loss to understand why a section for easy tasks is included. I can think of no situation -- nor any degree of GM sadism -- that would require a person roll for a task that they could normally complete unless some probabilistic trouble got in the way.

It's a logical follow on if there's no opposing roll by the GM, yet the situation is risky and there could be delay. I wanted to be certain that players understood the difference between success and not success yet, and failure. Some people have a triple level view of the world where there is:

Success;
Failure; and
Not success yet.


Where Failure is taken to mean, no more success is possible.

[MetaDude]

I like the way you handle easy tasks. I would use this mechanic in any situation where eventual success is a given, and not just "easy" tasks.

If the PCs want to search a room for a hidden door, a failed roll simply means nothing has been found - yet. Further searching may reveal something hidden, or there may not be anything to find. If the door is hidden well, it may require a roll of 3 or higher to locate.

[Levekius]

Andrew, you're almost doing a disservice to yourself by linking to one of your games in particular... your whole site is pretty darn cool! :)

One of the thing I really like is that in at least one of your other games, you listed acknowledgments. It's classy, it makes your intent crystal clear. And of course it makes your site a pretty good one for amateur designers such as myself. It's like a mini-portal to homebrewing.

It rocks, man.

[Lost Cub]

Hi Andrew!

It's a really good system - I tried it out, and it works. No system is perfect, but yours at least does what it promises, and that's no small thing!

I guess that what your system suffers most from is the common downfall of all generic systems - not enough details. You say that S can handle martial arts, but what is really in there to intrigue a martial arts fan like myself? How does, say, taekwondo differ from wing chun?

But, I know this is asking a bit too much from a tiny, elegant combat system such as yours. It's very comprehensive, on the whole, and intuitive. Also, I appreciate the combination of fast play and believable results.

Regards,

LC

[Lost Cub]

I like the name! What's behind it?

[Andrew Martin]

Lost Cub wrote:
> I like the name!

Thanks!

> What's behind it?

S comes from my Simply Skirmish system, plus it's also Simple, Scaleable, Subtle and quite a few other S words. Plus "D4-D12" became too much of a mouthfull to say.

> You say that S can handle martial arts, but what is really in there to intrigue a martial arts fan like myself?

S can handle hard style martial arts, like kicks, punches and head buts and dodges. Currently it can't do soft style martial arts, like throws, nerve points (I'm thinking of cinematic moves as used in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and in The Matrix), locks and holds and so on. S really needs a martial arts style to game mechanics conversion, so that players can just specify a martial arts style like Kung Fu, and know what manouvers are present, plus giving some sample combinations. This part is really needed to do justice to martial arts action movies.

> But, I know this is asking a bit too much from a tiny, elegant combat system such as yours.

It's not asking too much! It's on my big, big list of things to do. :) Martial arts will be as simple as the rest of the system, and you'll be able to mix up gun combat, with sword combat, with hard style martial arts and soft style martial arts all at once.

Thank you for your kind comments, LC, and I hope you and your friends enjoy playing the system! :)