WEG Star Wars vs D20 Star Wars

[Scarecrow]

I recently snapped up a copy of Wizards' D20 Star Wars Rules. This is my first experience with the D20 system which appears to be developed partly from the old TSR D&D format - which I was never particularly struck on.
I haven't had a chance to play yet, but it all looks a little unecessarily complex. Whilst I wasn't really a fan of WEG's D6 system either, it was quick and simple and felt a whole lot more accessible. Maybe my opinion will change when I play but I was wondering if anyone else has played both systems and how they felt about how the two compare and contrast.

[Creslin]

I have them both at home, and I really have to say I favor d20.
Task resolution is simple, by rolling a d20. Ship-combat sucks in d20, okay, but I have some custom, more cinamatic rules for it.
The complex thing, comes with how you use the infortmation d20 gives you. I simply ignore most :).
d20 is very simple and easy, if you just stick to the basics, and wing the rest. I have to admit I like it, ( being a D&D hater, since 1991 )

Cres

[Charbok]

As much as I enjoy D20, WEG D6 Star Wars is the best. Great intro game to non gamer types, fast and loose play, super quick Chargen, it just fucking rocks.

Charbok,
who loves the fact that WEG carried the torch from 87 to 91 all by their lonesome

[Proteus]

I'd go with D6, myself. Which is why I have never purchsed SW d20.

D6 had character templates, a good feel for the universe. The Force powers were a little lacking due to their 'spell list' format, but it seems that d20 has made this even worse. (I have no problem with hermetic-style Wizards using arcane words to invoke specific magical effects, but the Force is not D&D magic.)

Also, SW D6 was a simpler system. Adding up dice pools can be a pain, but they tended to stay pretty low in the D6 System (unless your characters are playing Luke and Han, I suppose!). Creslin, you indicated that d20 is simple if you 'take the basics and wing it'. If you do that with d6, it takes considerably less shaving to reach the basics.

The system was not complicated with ideas like Vitality/Wound Points and its system for Force Points and Dark Side points was inspired. Space combat worked. And the kooky Wild Die rule (1 in 3 actions have spectacular positive/negative effects) kept up the feel of the movies. Look at any fight in the Star Wars movies - its not roll-to-hit, roll-damage, roll-to-hit, roll-damage, its full of spectacular successes and incompetant/unfortunate failures.

I don't think d20 really offers anything that D6 doesn't - but for the fact that the d20 version is in print with loads of sourcebooks coming out.

-Proteus

[Andrew Martin]

I prefer WEG StarWars. I've bought and read through D20 StarWars, and it just turns me off, with needless complexity.

[Evan Waters]

The Force powers were a little lacking due to their 'spell list' format, but it seems that d20 has made this even worse. (I have no problem with hermetic-style Wizards using arcane words to invoke specific magical effects, but the Force is not D&D magic.)


And it isn't in STAR WARS d20- Force powers are skills, which use up Vitality. Nothing like the D&D magic system at all.

[Proteus]

Well, I didn't mean that the system was identical to D&D magic.

I meant that when I look at Vader's stats I see a dull 'spell list' of every power he ever used, each with specific names which sound like D&D spells ( 'Wall of The Force', 'Forceball', 'Yoda's Grasping Hand', 'Darth Bane's Disjunction').

This was a problem in SW d6 too, but not to the same extent, and it seems to be more easily dealt with by using the Control, Sense and Alter skills in a more freeform house system. But now I have commited the cardinal sin - mentioning house rules in a discussion about comparing game systems.

Also, having heard that Force Powers drain Vitality, I have been given another good reason not to like SW d20.

Somehow, I don't see any evidence in the films that using the Force drains anything, let alone gradually saps your luck and dodging skill until a Stormtrooper can puncture your lung with a decent shot.

Oh, and everyone feel free to correct any and all errors I make regarding the d20 SW system. There is a danger in arguing from ignorance, of course.

-Proteus

[Evan Waters]

Well, I didn't mean that the system was identical to D&D magic.

I meant that when I look at Vader's stats I see a dull 'spell list' of every power he ever used, each with specific names which sound like D&D spells ( 'Wall of The Force', 'Forceball', 'Yoda's Grasping Hand', 'Darth Bane's Disjunction').

That's nothing specific to D&D. Lots of magic/special power systems give lists of individual powers.

I find the d20 Force mechanics to be far more consistent than those in d6. A problem with the latter, as gets pointed out, is that the power scale is a bit exaggerated at both ends- Force powers are just about worthless to start, but once they get high enough nothing's much of a challenge. d20 has a much smoother power curve from level to level- you can make good use of the powers right away, but you don't get mega-powerful compared to the other characters.

Also, having heard that Force Powers drain Vitality, I have been given another good reason not to like SW d20.

Somehow, I don't see any evidence in the films that using the Force drains anything, let alone gradually saps your luck and dodging skill until a Stormtrooper can puncture your lung with a decent shot.

Since when were Stormtroopers decent shots?

[Nepenth]

I played West End Games' Star Wars for a couple of years as a player in college ('93-'95). I don't think I'd want to play that again, but it was honestly the most fun I've ever had with an RPG. We had our own little building with a nice view and table on campus which was unused on the weekends. Wake up ~10 am, head on over to the auxiliary SU building, order up some pizzas, and sit down for a few hours of Star Wars gaming. :):cool:

I think we largely succeeded in capturing the flavor of Eps 4-6 with all original characters and plots. The system was great, almost transparent.

Ahhhh, memories. :cool::D

[Scarecrow]

Actually that was one of the first things I noticed about the D20 system that I wasn't keen on was the Force powers. As you say, very 'spell-listey'.
I thought WEG's system where there are three elements that you combine in various forms to produce your own end effects felt much more like the Force of the movies. Jedi in the movies appear to simply will things to happen, they don't learn specific force 'tricks' or 'spells'. It simply comes down to how powerful and masterful you are of the Force and not how many tricks you've learned.
I always thought this system would be a fantastic basis for a magic system too.

Anyway thanks for the opinions guys. I'm thinking of maybe running a SW game online using GRIP soon and wasn't sure wether to use WEG or move on to D20. I think I'll stick with WEG as I know it and I think I prefer it.

[Nepenth]

Originally posted by Evan Waters
Since when were Stormtroopers decent shots?

"Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

--Obi-Wan Kenobi displaying the fact that he labors under some sad misconceptions regarding the level of competence of Stormtroopers while commenting on the destruction wrought to the Jawa's travelling village.

[Michael]

I haven't played D20 starwars yet, but I have a character, and I'm really not looking forward to it. Star Wars D20 is the game lined up next after our current D&D3 is over. First of all I'd like to say, I don't hate D20. I'm having fun with this game. I've skimmed the D20 Star Wars book and I've made a couple of characters, and it really doesn't do anything for me. I found that WEG D6 Star Wars fit the feel of the universe for me. I don't have anything firm to base my lack of excitement for D20 SW on, but I did very much enjoy the D6 SW.

[Jack]

I had good luck running d20 SW, but then again I made sure the characters were pretty iconic. If you do that it works okay. But a bunch of multiclassing and a few "ex-Imperial commandoes turned smuggler turned swindler turned rebel fighter ace" can just ruin your day through sheer confusion. But for 2 Jedi, a hotshot kid, and a smuggler it worked great.

[BlightCrawler]

Originally posted by Proteus
I meant that when I look at Vader's stats I see a dull 'spell list' of every power he ever used, each with specific names which sound like D&D spells ( 'Wall of The Force', 'Forceball', 'Yoda's Grasping Hand', 'Darth Bane's Disjunction').

Wel, WEG also used lists sort of like that, so I don't see what the big deal is.

Alright, so are there any (no offense) informed opinions on the D20 vs WEG use of Force? I haven't looked at the D20 version, but I always felt the WEG version of the Force was the weakest part of the game (which isn't saying too much given all the strengths). It seems people are very luke-warm (pun intended) on which version's depiction of the Force is better. Up until this thread, I had gotten the impression that the D20 system was han-down (now I'm stretching it) better for the Force.

Now, trying to picture Star Wars in terms of levels and hit points seems blasphemous, I was hoping that some excellent Force rules could redeem it--if only because I probably won't be able to find another WEG book again. :(

"Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

--Obi-Wan Kenobi displaying the fact that he labors under some sad misconceptions regarding the level of competence of Stormtroopers while commenting on the destruction wrought to the Jawa's travelling village.

I think he was referring to the Stormtroopers targetting vital systems on the crawler, instead of random blasts.

[Ron]

I played WEG's Star Wars a lot in late 80s and early 90s. Although I don't remember much about the rules anymore, I remember that it was a great game that really captured the feeling of the movies. Unfortunely, I can't say the same about WotC's Star Wars d20. I went through three painful nights playing this game and the result was awful. The classes doesn't capture the spirit of Star Wars, the game mechanic was not appropriated, VP/WP division, to my surprise, didn't worked well, starship combat rules were very weak, and so on. To be fair, I liked the psionics rules, but no one generated a force using character, so I don't know how it would work in actual playtest. I gave my copy of the game to a friend that, as far as I know, haven't liked it very much.

WotC is releasing an expanded and revised edition in the following weeks. It appears to address many of the complaints about the original edition. Still, considering my experience with the current game, I fear it will also fail to capture the flavor of the movies.

[Scarecrow]

Actually now that you mention it, that's something else I don't like about the D20 system and have always hated about D&D is 'Levels' and even worse the painfully vague, 'Experience Points' system. It's for this reason that I am a big fan of the Chaosium BRP system. Skills advance as you use them. Brilliantly simple and effective.

Maybe I should convert WEG Star Wars to BRP - nobody'd play it but at least I'd be happy =)

[Nepenth]

Originally posted by BlightCrawler
I think he was referring to the Stormtroopers targetting vital systems on the crawler, instead of random blasts.

Mebbe so, but that thing really 'crawled'. It was 30 meters high and went maybe 15 km/h. Now I'm no great shot myself, but I've done some skeet shooting and target shooting, and I think I could take out little bits of that giant transport.

Maybe they had the requisite Military Intelligence to know which systems to target to quickly and efficiently disable the thing.

Maybe the Stormtroopers with the orange things on their shoulders (Camelbaks for dealing with the hot Tatooine suns?) were better, they didn't live the same pampered lifestyle the 'troopers on the Death Star enjoyed. :cool:

[Ian ORourke]

I loved the WEG Star Wars game, I've ran some of my most successful games in it. I am the first to realise though, that while I think WEG is overall better, the D20 product has some serious advantages.

The Jedi are better in that D20 product, it handles there powers and Lightsaber battles much more effectively. They have less of a spell list than the WEG game by far! The WP/VP system also allows for the blocking of blaster bolts and the parrying of attacks due to it being represented by VP loss - the only way to do lightsaber duels effectively is via this abstraction.

The D20 game appears to be complicated, but it is not once everything is on the character sheet which actually makes the game quicker in place and things resolve quickly (you avoid the buckets of dice and adding up every time - usually multiple times per hit in WEG).

Also the characters remain more individual in D20 due to the presence of feats as a scarce resource - in WEG all characters eventually became very similar. They also easily got out of control (without GM hardlining the issue that is).

In all the above keep in mind I really like WEG Star Wars, I'm just not deluding myself that some advantages in D20 exist.

At the end of the day - each to their own :)

[Charbok]

I'd love to give the D20 Star Wars a good shakedown run, and y'all are giving me a bit of incentive for it. Not to mention the fact that the Star Wars Gamer mag has some nifty neato adventures in it, too.

But my one lingering doubt is the fact they've gone and put out a revised version already . . .

Charbok,
who hates spending $$ on a broken rulebook

[Sangrolu]

Originally posted by Proteus
The Force powers were a little lacking due to their 'spell list' format, but it seems that d20 has made this even worse. (I have no problem with hermetic-style Wizards using arcane words to invoke specific magical effects, but the Force is not D&D magic.)

Wrong answer.

d20 SW force powers DO NOT work like spells.


Creslin, you indicated that d20 is simple if you 'take the basics and wing it'. If you do that with d6, it takes considerably less shaving to reach the basics.

I really beg to differ. D6 is a dice pool system, which means every dice gives you a different probability curve. That makes it much more difficult for the GM to estimate the relative chance of success of a given task. It is pure simplicity to do this in d20.

[Proteus]

Sangrolu, I already stand corrected.

There's no use endlessly repeating a criticism of a comment I have already retracted.

I was wrong to imply that the d20 Star Wars Force system was just like D&D spells.

-Proteus

[_Gabriel]

I bought the d20 Star Wars book a while back. I don't know why. I guess I like self torture.

I didn't like the game at all. It was almost as bad as a Palladium product of the last 5-7 years or so.

However, it was a better way to learn the d20 rules than using the D&D3 books. Star Wars d20 is written in a much better style, and is quite a bit better organized than the D&D3 books.

Still, I felt the book sucked pretty badly. I gave it to a friend who helped me move. Maybe he'll enjoy it more than I did.

[Sangrolu]

Originally posted by Proteus
Sangrolu, I already stand corrected.

Fair enough, sorry. I usually try to read all the posts before replying, but sometimes someone says something the compels me to promtly hit "reply with quote." :)

[Wolfspider]

I've had no experience whatsoever with the D6 rules, but I love the D20 ones. I think they capture the feel of the movies quite well. I look forward to the revised version; although I'm a bit sore that the original D20 book was published with so many errors, I am glad that they're at least doing it right this time.

[Naughty Bishop]

I wonder if *any* other system could inspire so many "I've only played once/I've never played it but I've only looked over the rules/I've never looked at the rules and don't have to BUT I know this game sux" responses.

That being said, here's a disclaimer: I'm an avid hater of the d20/OGC concept as it is presently put forward (for reasons inappropriate to this thread). I read the SW d20 rules this past week and played in a d20 SW game at a con for 3 hours, which was my first and only d20 experience thus far. I also in the same week read the WEG rules, trying to decide which system to use for a game I'm planning. I have never played WEG's game either.

Thus having no bais for real judgment, I feel uniquely qualified to comment...

My impressions were this: if you plan to have a lot of hot Jedi action, go with d20. As has already been noted in this thread, Force powers are better put forth (if you don't have bunches of sourcebooks you are missing a lot in the WEG system it would seem) and I think seem to work better. The whole "Force uses Vitality" issue I can understand as a game balance tool, or who would ever want to be a Smuggler? Other than these things, the Force systems look very very similar, which is not surprising since they have the same designer.

I don't like the concept of levels - never have, never will. I'll probably try to kludge together some different experience/rewards system for my game. I've just never liked the whole "you have to wait until 7th level to develop the ability to feed yourself" concept. Just give me character points to spend after each adventure and let me run free!

Classis in d20 don't seem that far off from the Templates in WEG, but they're better defined. The whole multi-classing thing seems to be a pain, but explains how some folks can switch direction with relative ease.

I really don't like that you can't pour your skill development into weapons in d20. From what it looks like to me 2 characters with the same stats of the same class and the same level will always have the same chance to hit with a Blaster Pistol. WEG allows you to put points into weapon ability, and to specialize in a particular weapon, which I like. Another kludge I'd have to make to use d20.

Starship Combat: Looks sucky in d20, was too tired to pay much attention in WEG. Would probably (am I a broken record or what?) insert some modified version of Full Thrust and break out the Micro Machines for starship combat, whichever rpg system I chose.

The existence of "current" sourcebook production doesn't matter a bit to me, since I'm too cheap to buy sourcebooks anyway (although I'll likely get the Ships of the Galaxy d20 book just cuz SW ships rock my world).

Is d20 overly complicated? It's frickin' D&D people! 12 year olds are playing it. How complicated can it be? There's some basic math to do when calculating your to hit and defense, but once it is written down you don't have to do a lot of math on the fly. As a GM you probably need some in-game mental gymnastics (to adjust for cover range and difficulty modifiers and such) but the players probably don't. I think that's the same in any game system, though. Heck, the thought of trying to pick a Difficulty with a range in the 40s-50s seems more complicated than anything else I've seen in d20.

So what did I decide? I'm probably going to use d20 as a basic structure with some minor game system modifiers (probably won't muck with levels and experience at the end of the day - too messy to reverse engineer something that will work well), mainly because I envision an Episode I era game. WEG doesn't seem to have much guidance for developing Jedi who aren't newbies or drunks (perfectly appropriate for the Rebellion Era), so I don't see it working as well for this time period. Of course, I could just back the d20 Jedi types into the WEG system...hmmm. Guess the jury is still out.

So if anybody in southern New Hampshire is looking for a game...:-)

N.B.

[sys64738]

re: Why Stormtroopers are supposedly "so precise" and yet can't
hit the broad side of a barn PC-wise

It's because most people in the universe don't have 6-9 dice
in Dodge, and most PC's do. That makes a _huge_ difference.

[SteveD]

You know what? I think Obi-Wan wasn't confused, he was just speaking relatively.

"Sure, kid, they took a hundred shots to hit the key systems, but sand people are lucky if they don't blow their own faces off when they use a gun. Stormies suck but those guys REALLY suck"

Course, this is contradicted by the fact that one sand person in Ep 1 hits a zooming podracer from on top of a mountain with enough accuracy to destroy it. So we are once again left with the conclusion that Obi-Wan was either being deeply ironic or (more likely) he was drunk again.

Damn drunk Jedis.
Steve

[Ian ORourke]

Not the old Stormtrooper debate again. It's simple, if you can't see it your pretty dumb :)

Like in all action films and stuff of a heroic nature - the general mass of elite troops are only elite when fighting everyone but the heroes.

SWAT teams members, Stormtroopers, SAS whatever you want to call them fall before the heroes or have trouble hitting them while they make a hasty exit.

Simple as that. If you try and make it anymore complicated your just wasting your time.

[SteveD]

Not so, Ian. The Stormtroopers are totally dead accurate against hero Leia as long as their weapons are on stun. And they have a pretty damn hard time hitting the rebels guarding the door at the start of Star Wars too. In the entire battle of Endor, they kill one ewok. One! Face it, there is ZERO on-screen evidence of the stormtroopers ever being elite or forceful, except for killing some pissweak Jawas and possibly two middle-aged farmers (although new evidence suggests that was an accident).

The only indication ever given that Stormtroopers are elite or forceful (rather than just standard mooks) is Ben's line. Perhaps the Jawas WERE killed by Sandpeople and he's just trying to bend Luke's will against the empire. Manipulative old weirdo.

Steve

[Sangrolu]

Arguments like these reaffirm my faith that strictly emulating movies or literature is an empty / pointless goal. Get the concepts; leave "who did what to whom" behind, use your own system, and stick to it.

[Ron]

Originally posted by Naughty Bishop

Starship Combat: Looks sucky in d20, was too tired to pay much attention in WEG. Would probably (am I a broken record or what?) insert some modified version of Full Thrust and break out the Micro Machines for starship combat, whichever rpg system I chose.
N.B.

Although I never experienced the d20 starship combat rules it is obvious from a quick reading of the rules that it is lacking -- even WotC appears to agree with this, as they are publishing a new system in the upcomming new edition. However, the d6 system rocks. My original d6 SW character was something like an ace pilot and starship combat was one of the reasons I liked this game.

Finally, we trying to relaunch our SW game this year. As nobody liked the d20 version and it appears that the d6 copies are lost, we are now using the Unisystem, the core engine of games such as Witchcraft, Armaggedon, and All Flesh Must be Eaten and the forthcoming Buffy and Terra Primate. It works surprisely well. The GM posted fairly complete conversion notes in his own homepage <www.geocities.com/patchlord/unisystem/index.html>.

[Moochava]

Okay, I both ran and played in extended D6 Star Wars campaigns for all four years of high school, and I've been running a D20 Star Wars campaign for about a year now during winter, summer, and spring breaks from college. Now, the fact that I have some knowledge about the systems in question may disqualify me from commenting, but I'll try anyway.

Character Creation:

D6 Star Wars takes almost no time to set up. Pick a template, pick 7D in skills, pick a name, and off you go. D20 Star Wars takes much more effort: it takes as much time as creating a D&D character. Further, the classes are vaguely defined, meaning that it's tough to decide what class you want to be to fulfill certain Star Wars archetypes. Creating a smuggler is easy in D6--you select Smuggler. Creating one in D20 requires you to choose between at least two plausible classes (Scoundrel and Scout, possibly more), which results in an uninformed decision when people are first exposed to the system. Creating a technical character in D20 is particularly problematic.

Winner: D6

Game Play:

Both D6 and D20 Star Wars have a unified core mechanic. In general, D20 has the advantage here: when you become more experienced in D6, it's really easy to have skills of 12D or 13D--I dunno about you, but I friggin' hate rolling lots of dice, especially in a cinematic game. Further, it's more difficult to make unusual die rolls (like Perception + Lightsabre to check out someone else's Phat Jedi Skillz) in D6, because it uses "pips" of +1 or +2 after the D rating, and they're kinda difficult to add.

While the general mechanic of D20 is easier, it's in the specifics where D6 really shines--or rather, where D20 really falls down. Multiple actions in D6 are a thing of beauty--subtract one die from all your rolls per extra action. Every time I perform a multiple action, I say a prayer to the Gods of Game Elegance that designed that rule; it's just that beautiful. D20 uses the D&D free/move-equivalent/standard/full-action divide, and autofire requires consulting a full-page chart of modifiers, and then doing another modifier in your head. It *really* sucks. There are lots of other rules that D6 just handles better--starship combat springs immediately to mind: D20 starship combat is probably the worst thing I've ever seen. Ever. Like, worse than the Armenian genocide. It sucks.

Winner: Neither

Combat:

This is a real judgment call, since the strengths of both systems are in their combat rules. D20 uses a Vitality Point/Wound Point division, while D6 uses wound levels and soak rolls. D20 is a bit faster (no soak roll), but requires some math juggling when you cross the Vitality/Wound divide. Both D20, with its store of Vitality points to prevent you from getting killed, and D6, with its store of character points (expendible XPs) to prevent you from getting killed, do the same thing: they keep things heroic. Which one you prefer, though, is really a matter of taste. If you hate rationalizing Vitality Points, go for D6. If you hate spending metagame tokens in combat, go for D20.

Winner: Neither

Advancement:

Here's where I've found D20 has a real advantage over D6. While D6 gives you the "realism" (so critically important in Star Wars ;-) ) of advancing characters gradually, and D20 uses levels, I ultimately prefer leveling to skill advancement. First, it prevents characters from simply advancing Blaster, Dodge, and Starfighter Piloting and leaving everything at base levels--and this happens *constantly* in D6--munchkins or no munchkins. D20, with its skill rank caps, forces players to advance more of their skills than just the uber-useful ones. While it takes away some freedom, it ultimately leads to more interesting characters.

Second, it's difficult to scale an encounter for D6 Star Wars characters, because it's tough to tell how good they are. With D20, you can just look at their level, but it's more of a guessing game in D6. Further, there's a smoother progression in D20. Jedi characters in D6, in particular, have power levels that are at all times wildly divergent from those of the rest of the party. Either they're incredibly weak or incredibly strong--D20 keeps things much more balanced. If you have any interest in mechanical game balance, D20 really comes out ahead.

Winner: D20

The Force:

Ah, this is the crux of the matter, isn't it? What sort of poncy-ass wanker wants to play a protocol droid when you can take a Gammorian's legs off with your lightsabre? (Rhetorical question.) Honestly, both D6 and D20 drop the ball on Force powers. I've played Jedi with both now, and I can say that they both suck. First, they're both spell lists. D20 is more rigid and formulaic, as well as more arbitrary: some powers are skills, and some are feats, with little rhyme or reason. D6 is more unbalanced: many force powers in supplements are unbalanced in very subtle but potentially game-ruining ways.

D6 suffers from the problem of a Jedi's power level fluctuating wildly, with him eventually settling as far, far more powerful than the rest of the party, and in fact eclipsing all their abilities, so long as he has the right powers. D20 suffers from a certain rigidity in design that prevents easy conversion to a more free-form system. Of course, if you *want* spell-list magic for your Jedi, either of these systems do fine, but I, for one, have found it very unsatisfactory and prefer something more freeform: it's easier to make a freeform Force system with D6 than with D20, due to D20's careful balancing contrasted with D6's "pick a skill, give it a dice number, and go" approach.

Winner: Neither

So, which game is better? Tough call. Honestly, I prefer D6; it's more tightly integrated, it's simpler, it's more elegant, and it's more customizable. D20, while not a bad game, shows very obvious signs of having been rushed, and suffers from rules that are cludgy, difficult to modify, or just royal fuck-all stupid (starship combat, again). Your hyperdrive multiplier may vary.

------------------
Kyle Marquis
Tandelume and other RPGs at www.angelfire.com/ma/rpg/index.html

[Bahama'at]

I think Moochava summarized them both very well (great job btw). I would add a few minor things:

1. Support - as much as I like d6, it ain't seeing any d6-specific support any time soon.

2. mass combat - d6 had wonderful rules for mass combat, one of the better abstract systems I ever saw (L5R coming close), it even had a nice miniature combat system that worked very well (and was well-timed since perfect-for-gaming Micomachine scale Star Wars packs came out at the same time).

3. in media res. d20 talks about it, but one thing the pre-packaged d6 stuff did well was the 'in media res' opening scenes. This is very much fluff, but it really helped capture the feel of the movies (which never started out slow). Most immediately began (in the middle of) a gun battle or similar "misunderstanding".

I have read both (and played the WEG version long long ago in a province far far away) and while I can see where d20 is better in some places, my instinct is to reach for the WEG books whenever possible.

[Jim DelRosso]

People have been talking about the superiority of the D6 starship combat rules, so I have to ask: which ones?

I remember the 1st ed starship combat rules being distinctly different from the 2nd ed E&R rules that I picked up used a couple of months ago. I recall the 1st ed being a lot more abstract, settling chases through opposed rolls and what not. The 2nd ed seems a lot more numbercrunchy to me.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? Am I hallucinating?

[Caudex]

Originally posted by Nepenth


"Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

--Obi-Wan Kenobi displaying the fact that he labors under some sad misconceptions regarding the level of competence of Stormtroopers while commenting on the destruction wrought to the Jawa's travelling village.

Well, if you take it to mean 'as precise as this', he could be going from the fact that for every shot put in a Jawa, there are seven or eight in the nearby cliffs and sandcrawler.

[Bahama'at]

I liked the first edition versions myself. We also used Star Warriors (a chit-based starship combat game that had RPG plug ins). That was a bit more tactical but was pretty fun (although it did take much longer to play through a combat/chase using the chits than just by rolling the dice).

We used the 2/Rev combat system for a d6 version of Robotech (the rules work amazingly well) and had no problem with them either.

[Proteus]

'I wonder if *any* other system could inspire so many "I've only played once/I've never played it but I've only looked over the rules/I've never looked at the rules and don't have to BUT I know this game sux" responses.'

Loads of people on this thread have said stuff like this, and mostly they are referring to my post (if not specifically, then as part of a group).

I am not an anti-d20 reactionist. I play in D&D3E campaigns and as such know the basic rule system intimately. I have a beyond-passing knowledge of the SW d20 system, but naturally there are gaps in my knowledge since I decided it was not worth my money.

Guess what, not everyone can buy every book they look at just to be able to write a 3,000 word informed essay on the pros and cons. Personally, I listened carefully to debates and reviews on RPGnet, and when I found an un-shrinkwrapped copy of the RPG on a secluded shelf I proceeded to read some portions of it.

I chose not to buy it, but I feel I know enough to argue on a few points, but not enough to argue and never be corrected.

It's foolish to dismiss someone just because they haven't read the book in full. It is better to correct what misconceptions they have and respond intelligently to those ideas that do, in fact, make perfect sense.

You don't have to have fully playtested a game, read the rulebook twice and created at least four characters of each Class/Template to say something meaningful about a system. Sheesh.

Sorry for interrupting the discussion, I was feeling a little defensive (paranoid?).

-Proteus

[Bahama'at]

Don't sweat it Proteus. They're convinced that if you say bad things about anything d20 you must be a kneejerk hater of the system. Hell, a couple of my players lurk here (one even does a review from time to time) and some still think I only look at the books on the shelves, despite having people confirm that I do, in fact, run a D&D3 game every week.

{edit: I spel goud}

[sys64738]

To continue the Star Wars Stormtrooper side tangent, I would
ask if everyone has seen the "Troops" parody of Star Wars and
"Cops"?

In it the deaths of Luke's adopted family is explained pretty
handily.

Plus it has Stormtroopers with Minnesota accents, which rocks.

[Egil]

I have to say that it is WAY better than D&D 3e. 'Specially the force as compared to Vancesque magic slots. Didn't think the book was broken, either, except for starship combat. That, and it had a sample adventure, which I always dislike.

[SteveD]

You DISLIKE an intro adventure? Are you just trolling, or are you Satan reborn?

Okay, have no use for it. Okay, see it as a waste of space. But actively DISLIKE them? WTF?

Steve

[Egil]

Dislike = think it's wasted space. For me.
Wasted space that I dislike all the more because, unlike, say, reprise text (like those blurbs for people that White Wolf likes to give us, with slight variation, in the world description, character creation, and monster chapters), or useless text (like long rants about roleplaying), or stuff I dislike (like SWd20's own Starships combat chapter), I cannot bitch about it. It's eminently reasonable. A lot of people like it. It may even be a good adventure.
I dislike something all the more if I cannot find something wrong with it.

[SteveD]

Ah. Goodo. I thought I might have had to kill you there for a second.

BTW, I think maybe it was just that shooting was running late, and Alec blew his lines. He was supposed to say:

"Only imperial stormtroopers are so imprecise"

or

"Only imperial stormtroopers are so *sarcastic*"precise"*sarcastic*"

But everything else worked with that particular take, so George (in his usual oh so sloppy approach to film making) just let it slide.

Steve

[Ian ORourke]

Originally posted by Sangrolu
Arguments like these reaffirm my faith that strictly emulating movies or literature is an empty / pointless goal. Get the concepts; leave "who did what to whom" behind, use your own system, and stick to it.

I'd be inclined to agree, as some people I know obviously don't see the same movie as me, they come out trying to map the hyperdrive to physics and need to explain how battledroids work.

[BlightCrawler]

Originally posted by Nepenth
Maybe the Stormtroopers with the orange things on their shoulders (Camelbaks for dealing with the hot Tatooine suns?) were better, they didn't live the same pampered lifestyle the 'troopers on the Death Star enjoyed. :cool:

This reminds me of Jedi Knight II: if you're sneaky enough, you can catch some great bits of dialogue between stormtroopers. Some great inside jokes, including a few inaccurate gun jokes (okay here's a freebee: "I think my sight's off. I can't hit a damn thing with this blaster.")

[NPC El Draque]

Hasn't the whole stormtrooper accuracy thing been dealt with before?

I seem to remember...way back, maybe 1991 or '92, back in the WEG 1st Ed. era, reading something about this topic. It might have been in the 1st Ed. rulebook, or maybe it was in Dragon Magazine's Forum. Anyway, the consensus at that time was that Stormtroopers really were fairly skillful. Their poor showing in Episode 4 was the result of conscious planning, as Leia pointed out as the Millennium Falcon escaped the Death Star.

[Charbok]

Heh, yet another reason to love west end:

I recall the original ROTJ sourcebook explained that the only reason that the ewoks won the battle of Endor was because of their vastly superior numbers. The Stormies just massacreed the little muppets one on one, but when it came to 30 to one, it was a different story.

Much more satisfying than Stormtroopers just suck, IMHO.

Charbok,
who still can't believe they give that Ewok in Jedi 14 seconds . . .

[DrNate]

Originally posted by Nepenth


"Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

--Obi-Wan Kenobi displaying the fact that he labors under some sad misconceptions regarding the level of competence of Stormtroopers while commenting on the destruction wrought to the Jawa's travelling village.

The rest of that line was cut from the script. It should read...

"...when shooting at the broad side of a sandcrawler."