Epilogue

[Yanner]

I just signed up with epilogue today. Thought 'what they hey, might as well - it sounds like a good site'.

I sent in my work for approval, and they where acccepted, all but two. One I can understand - it looks kindve "nyeh". Their comment was "it was flat".

But then they rejected a cover i did for sword and sorcery. saying it needed better composition. I'm not really sure what that meant. I made a decision when doing the piece to sihlouette the front characters, because the lighting was low. But I personally thought it was one of the best pieces I'd done - and I tend to be hard on myself and overcritical.

Has anyone had an experience like that? I kindve feel like I'm at a gallery showing where everyones looking at the bad art and going wow, and going "phh" at the stuff i feel confident about.

Ohwell, its a cool site overall :)

-Yanner

[Socar MYLES]

I'm not absolutely positive, since you didn't link to the work you submitted to Epilogue, but I think I know which pictures you're talking about--they were all impressive (if I'm talking about the right ones)--but in a couple of them, the figures seemed to be rather pasted on top of each other in a way that didn't suggest much depth. It was as if you'd taken some photographs and overlaid them, one over another, to artificially construct a scene, then used that as a reference. (I'm not suggesting that's what you DID do, but that was how it appeared--sort of patched together, if you see what I mean.)

In your rejected images, you also had some very bright colours and lighting, which didn't affect the figures as much as it should have.

However, overall, your work was incredible.

I REALLY hope I'm talking to the right person, here. But I think I recognize the "Sword and Sorcery" reference. Feel free to hit me over the head if I'm talking to someone completely different.

Anyway, the thing to remember with Epilogue is that although we do our best to keep the standards fair and impartial, sometimes you'll get a tough editor who will nitpick on stuff like composition, lighting, flatness, et cetera. I, for example, am a total composition Nazi. If your art gets rejected, though, it doesn't mean it's BAD--just that somebody thought it could use some work in one area or another. (Hey, I got rejected out of Epilogue one time, too...for tasteless nudity. I didn't think it was tasteless, but it was embarrassing anyway.)

[GreyT]

FIRST, Epilogue's great, they provide a wonderful free service that lets artists show work, get feedback, and gain professional exposure; not to mention the industry news, contests, etc

BUT I hear you, and I've heard other artists make similar complaints. The approval process sometimes seems arbitrary, opinionated, and at it's worst random. There are posted guidelines, but I think the reviewer's personal tastes come into play a little too often

f'r instance, this piece (http://www.greystudio.com/images/gallery/bw/orphan.jpg), done for the Penumbra Bestiary, was rejected as "unrefined or lack of detail" . . . maybe I can't judge my own work fairly but that seemed like a harsh call . . .

so no, you're not alone; but for the great service Epilogue gives I'm willing to roll with it's quirks and keep my undead children on my own website:)

[Socar MYLES]

Argh. Sorry, Grey--I think I was the guilty editor in your case, too. I'm not sure "unrefined or lack of detail" was the most descriptive reason I could've used, though--the main problem I had with that particular piece was with the lighting--it seemed a bit confusing in places. I think the character could also have stood out from the background a bit more. I'd have said this was more a refined sketch than a finished work. Don't get me wrong--it's a really NICE sketch--but nobody's supposed to submit sketches, no matter how good they are. I think I snuck in a sketch a while back, but I really should take it back down again, since sketches aren't supposed to be there.

Anyway, with art, it's really hard to have a hard and fast standard--it's always going to be a bit subjective, when there's any kind of judging going on. :( I'm glad most people seem to be fairly forgiving of any inconsistencies that happen on Epilogue. We do try pretty hard to keep the quality fairly standardized, but there's no way to get all the editors to agree 100% of the time.

[GreyT]

so, . . . it was YOU

I'll have my revenge one day, mark my words (and other cliche supervillain threats) ;)

[Socar MYLES]

Yeek!

See, that's why I don't usually admit it when I'm the guilty party! ;)

Seriously, though, it's been such a relief since the bug on Epilogue has been eradicated, the one that let people see who rejected their art. A lot of abusive e-mail was spawned by that bug.

[Yanner]

I was worrying that someone just had a bad day and went, yeah that ones okay, nah that one sucks.

It must suck having to review piece after piece..

I feel more comfortable now knowing its an artist judging the work and not some random critic.

I'll just go pout now ;)

But thankyou for the input, I can understand the problems you saw in the pieces now - i just need a little extra explanation sometimes.


-Yanner

[David Hamilton]

I have very mixed feelings about the Epilogue site.

So far, I have had only two peices accepted to my gallery, and I understand why all of my others were not accepted, so it's not like a case of sour grapes, or anything. Hey, I can take a constructive, even harsh critique with the best of them.


My main issue with Epi is the inordinate amount of frauds that I have come across with galleries there. I won't go so far as to start throwing names around here, as there have already been flame wars on the forums at Epi about this, and I don't want to potentially start another one here.

The sort of thing I'm talking about is usually pretty subtle, and a person who isn't familiar with many different well-known fantasy illustrators would never realize that what they are looking at is either someone elses work entirely, or elements of other artists work muddled around with in Photoshop and claimed as original work. Often, an image will contain two or more completely different artistic styles from several different illustrators, mixed in with a little Photoshop work. Boris, Julie, Royo, and Keith Parkinson seem to be favorite targets for rip-off artists. Talented photo-manipulators who take some one's hard work and apply artistic filters and airbrush techniques seem to be rampant, or were the last time I bothered to browse the new artwork at Epi.

I realize that the editors at Epi have a HUGE responsiblity, and I try to report blatant image theft directly to the moderators, as well as mentioning it to the "artist" in question. Usually, the problem seems to be dealt with quickly, but in several cases, I have noted that the offending party will remove the images, only to sneak them in again sometime later.

Again, this IS NOT a knock against the editors there. I have a lot of repspect for the hard job they have.

It's a shame, really. Epi is a great site, full of professional, top quality artists, many of whom also post here. Unfortunately, it is also a breeding ground for talented scam artists who seem to be making a name for themselves selling prints and landing commissions based on fraudulent work. It can be very frusrating to be an newcomer illustrator, trying to get a foot in the industry door and improve my work at the same time, all the while watching liars and thieves get high praise (and money!) for nothing.

Sorry for the rant.


David

[Socar MYLES]

Oh, no, it's nothing like that--we all try to be as fair as possible, and give every picture a really good look (more than just a glance, that is--I always try and give every picture at least a minute's attention before making a decision, unless it's some horrible rubbish on lined paper.) All the editors on Epilogue are artists, mostly professional artists, so we all know what rejection is like (and hate it as much as anyone else). Our e-mails are on Epilogue's editors page, as well, so if you (or anyone) ever does need some extra explanation about a rejection, you can always write to one of us and we'll get back to you.

It really does suck rejecting work that's actually very good, and just has a few flaws. Sometimes, it's really hard to decide what to do, and your work was in that category--it was all great stuff--some pieces were just greater than others.

EDIT - David, just read your post--there isn't usually as much of a problem with ripoff artists as there has been lately--there's just been a huge rash of them over the last couple of months, for some bizarre reason. We spot the really obvious ones (the Bowser, Royo, Vallejo, etc. ones) 99% of the time, but sometimes people rip off art by lesser-known illustrators as well, and we usually don't catch those till someone lets us know.

Epilogue takes an EXTREMELY dim view of that kind of garbage, though. Anyone caught submitting frauds or plagiarism of any sort will get banned.

[Yanner]

David,

I wouldnt really get too frustrated over things like that, the frauds take their chance in being sued by the victim artist if their work is used in a publication. Just feel confident in the fact you dont have the need to commit acts like that.

I feel like I'm sounding like my mum O_o

-Yanner

[madelf]

I used to beat myself up over my rejections at epilogue as well.
I constantly lurked around the WIP forum trying to figure out what I was doing wrong (and learned a good bit, so don't get me wrong), till the point where I realized that I was altering an illustration to the point where it wasn't what I had intended it to be anymore. That's when I changed my attitude.

Now... I get a drawing or painting done, if I think it came out pretty good and it meets the requirements of having a background and such, then I submit it.
If it gets accepted, great. If not, oh well. On to the next thing.

I think you have to keep that attitide, or you get frustrated.
The quality standards at epilogue (particularly if you're doing realitic-style work) is very high. The stated goal is "publishable quality", but the actual standard enforced is often well above that.

So if you get any in, it says you're pretty good. If you don't get everysingle piece in, don't sweat it. It doesn't mean you're bad.

[Glen Osterberger]

Not even sure what epilogue is but don't beat yourself up over someones arbitrary comments. Art is very subjective.

[Eric Lofgren]

It's down right now. Does anyone know if this is due to their server upgrade measures or not?

[Socar MYLES]

Their power source and motherboard failed yesterday night. They are scrambling now to move onto their new server as fast as possible, and should be up within a few days.

[Steve T. Laws]

Heres a query, Socar. How mu8ch flak do you and the other editors over at Epi get?

I'm sure it's a lot. But is it a lot as in "yeah it's a lot", "you have no idea", or "your feeble mind could't comprehend the smallest fraction of the real numbers".

You know, just for those of us on the outside looking in.

[Socar MYLES]

Well, it kind of goes in cycles--sometimes, we don't get much for a while...other times, it's unbelievable. Sometimes, somebody seems to develop a real vendetta against one particular editor. I had a woman recently who went around saying dreadful things about me all over the Internet--it was actually kind of scary, because it went on for MONTHS. She seemed obsessed. :(

On the other hand, a lot of people write to say "thanks for the site", or "can you help with this submission", and they seem genuinely appreciative, which makes up for all the meanies.

[Wren]

Their power source and motherboard failed yesterday night. They are scrambling now to move onto their new server as fast as possible, and should be up within a few days.
I'll be glad when they get it back. I'm going through Epi-withdraws! :eek:

[Steve T. Laws]

That's good. I'm glad the nice kids outweigh the jerks. And I hope you and the others over there do get your fair share of the kudos all y'all deserve.

Any word on when Epi'll be moved to the new server? Are we still scheduled for mid August?

And finally, if anymore wierdo's come out of the wood work, just use Jon Hodgson as a scapegoat. "No sir, twern't me who dun ya wrong. I thought everythin' was just peachy but my mean ol' boss, JOH HODGSON, says I have to say differnt".

Don't worry, he's experience with keeping the loons in line.

[Socar MYLES]

I think they're actually working on moving to the new server right now--they've had to put the rush on it because of the crash. I'm not really involved with the technical end of things at all, though--I'm just an editor.

[Steve T. Laws]

"I'm just an editor," she says.

While the particulars on this question might be out of your scope, don't downpay your title and contribution too much. People will get the wrong idea and not reveare and fear the mighty Editors.

[Jon H]

Originally posted by Steve T. Laws

And finally, if anymore wierdo's come out of the wood work, just use Jon Hodgson as a scapegoat. "No sir, twern't me who dun ya wrong. I thought everythin' was just peachy but my mean ol' boss, JOH HODGSON, says I have to say differnt".

Don't worry, he's experience with keeping the loons in line.



Well, you certainly give me enough pratice Steven.

[Socar MYLES]

My weirdest experience with Epilogue, I think, actually happened before I became an art editor. Epilogue used to have a story section, and they were planning a magazine (now on the back burner because there just isn't enough cash yet to do it right). I was the first editor to sign up for the story section, but because I'm known as an artist, not a writer, people just didn't realize I wasn't an art editor. I started getting e-mails from people asking about editorial stuff more than a year before I joined the art editors. I even got art editor hate-mail. It was totally bizarre, because I got blamed for a lot of stuff I didn't do. Epilogue's resident psycho even e-stalked me for a bit.

[Jon H]

Originally posted by Socar MYLES
Epilogue's resident psycho even e-stalked me for a bit.

I joined up at Epi right around the time of that person's activities. That was some pretty frightening stuff, and was glad to find out tht it was a-typical for Epilogue members! I'd warn anyone who knows the person's name not to type it here, as there used to some concern IIRC that that person searched the net for any mention of their name. It would be a disaster if they turned up here!


I'm amazed at some of the grief you guys put up with, Socar. I just couldn't do it. Respect is so totally due.

[veinglory]

Sorry to hear about the difficulties at epilogue. I look forward to its return.