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View Full Version : Now hold on one damn minute ... {Public Domain Issues}


Forum Administrator
05-22-2002, 09:42 AM
Okay - in the Tangency forum, I made a post a looong time ago that I intended to use public-domain images (namely the works of Heironymous Bosch) to illustrate my RPG. The thought behind this was simple: these works being public domain, no royalties or payments need to be made. Free art, essentially, embroidered by commissioned modern pieces. It lowers the cost of the production of the book, and Bosch's work is amazing.

Godfather Punk raised a question, just recently, about whether or not I need to get rights to the *museums* that currently hold the work, the photographer in whatever book I eventually scan the images out of, or the creator of online GIFs of the images.

It seems fair enough that I would have to obtain the permission of the photographer of pictures in a book of art (although not the author of the book), but I have some serious questions about where this right comes from:

1) Where in the world do museums get the rights to these paintings? I'm including a few quotes from the Berne Copyright Convention of 1971 that handles these sorts of issues, which I'll quote here:

Art. 9.2 It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to permit the reproduction of such works in certain special cases, provided that such reproduction does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.

Art. 14.1 The author, or after his death the persons or institutions authorized by national legislation, shall, with respect to original works of art and original manuscripts of writers and composers, enjoy the inalienable right to an interest in any sale of the work subsequent to the first transfer by the author of the work.

Art. 18.1 This Convention shall apply to all works which, at the moment of its coming into force, have not yet fallen into the public domain in the country of origin through the expiry of the term of protection.

Art. 18.2 If, however, through the expiry of the term of protection which was previously granted, a work has fallen into the public domain of the country where protection is claimed, that work shall not be protected anew.

While sitting here writing this, I suppose that I understand that they have a need to house the painting, grant access, etc. All of that costs money, so they're going to charge you if you want to come and take a photograph of it or puchase a photograph made by the museum itself.

Does this mean that the Public Domain is essentially full of crap, at least as it comes to illustration and works of art? The work is ostensibly in the public domain, free for use to anyone. Books that are in the public domain can be transcribed or scanned and OCR'd and remain perfect copies of the original. Paintings and illustrations, however, need to be photographed or otherwise recorded, supposedly in person. The museum has control of the painting, and charges the photographer (or publisher), and then the photographer has the rights of the photograph.

It gets more confusing for me. The copyright law, at least in the U.S., only covers *the original arrangement* of public domain materials. In other words, if I create a picture book of Bosch's art, only the arrangement of the book itself and anything I add to it is copyrightable. The pictures of Bosch's work, being exact duplicates of the paintings, to me, would stand as public domain, since they're entirely Bosch's work, and a photograph of said painting is not an *interpretive* work based on the painting.

So really, I'm very confused. Apparently, although these works are supposed to be 'free' in the sense that anyone can use (or abuse) them as often as they like, you can't because access to them is restricted and the only way to get a copy is to a) travel to the museum and pay for access; b) buy a copy that the museum prints; c) buy an art book and then request (and probably pay) the photographer for the rights or d) download the image (say from The Bridgeman Collection, which is an online service that has print-quality images of these works).

Even the cheapest option, downloading the image, costs $120 - and that is, in the words of the site itself to 'secure the rights' to the image.

WHAT RIGHTS?

My head hurts now.

It would appear that there is no such thing as a free lunch. :D

Go fig.

Aries
05-22-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Kuma
Okay - in the Tangency forum, I made a post a looong time ago that I intended to use public-domain images (namely the works of Heironymous Bosch) to illustrate my RPG. The thought behind this was simple: these works being public domain, no royalties or payments need to be made. Free art, essentially, embroidered by commissioned modern pieces. It lowers the cost of the production of the book, and Bosch's work is amazing.

Godfather Punk raised a question, just recently, about whether or not I need to get rights to the *museums* that currently hold the work, the photographer in whatever book I eventually scan the images out of, or the creator of online GIFs of the images.]

I am not 100% sure but you may want to just to protect yourself. Murphy's law would probably come into effect if you don't which will land you in a heap of trouble.

That is my feelings on the subject. Postions my vary.

Forum Administrator
05-22-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by The Lone Gamer
I am not 100% sure but you may want to just to protect yourself. Murphy's law would probably come into effect if you don't which will land you in a heap of trouble.

That is my feelings on the subject. Postions my vary.
Just to clarify, my intentions with this thread is to understand this rather vexing situation - I never would publish anything without first double-checking. :) Thanks for getting my back, tho.

Mock
05-22-2002, 10:24 AM
Kuma:

I did a bit of poking around re: intellectual property, and it appears that copyright on photographs belongs to the photographer--thus, as I understand it, copyright issues apply to specific instances of an image--one can be in the public domain and the other may not. If it is, you should look for an explicit statement that the material is public domain (i.e. "I grant this material to be in the public domain" or something like that).

-Chris

Aries
05-22-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Kuma

Just to clarify, my intentions with this thread is to understand this rather vexing situation - I never would publish anything without first double-checking. :) Thanks for getting my back, tho.

You come across as someone who is smart enough to check out something like that before publishing. I just wanted to let you know what I would do if I were in that situation, something that may sooner or later happen.

wizardattic
05-22-2002, 11:56 AM
James at Hogshead I believe has done quite a bit of research on this already. Take note of the cover of Nobilis. He might be able to give you a guiding push if you ask nice.

Aries
05-22-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by wizardattic
James at Hogshead I believe has done quite a bit of research on this already. Take note of the cover of Nobilis. He might be able to give you a guiding push if you ask nice.

Personally I would be interested also on more information. Because I am on a limited budget as well, I might need to resort to using public domain art.

Misguided
05-22-2002, 12:42 PM
I wonder if you could find a book that was old enough for the copyright to have expired, if that would suffice. You'd then have to scan the images, of course.

Forum Administrator
05-22-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Misguided
I wonder if you could find a book that was old enough for the copyright to have expired, if that would suffice. You'd then have to scan the images, of course.
Photos of paintings predating 1923?

Maybe...the quality might be sketchy, though. I'll have to check out the university libraries around here and see what they have in stock. Maybe someone has an art history book from pre-1923.

Hmmm.

Not good for color, tho. :D

2WS-Steve
05-22-2002, 03:57 PM
You might try to the US Library of Congress or other nations' national libraries. At least for many US materials you get a right to use them just for being a citizen. You can get some pretty nice high-res images of hurricanes this way. Also, the LoC online has a fair number of archived photos available though it looks like the copyright info on a lot of them is missing (some may still belong to the original photographer).

James Wallis
05-22-2002, 05:46 PM
You'll almost certainly have to pay if you want to use copies of pictures that hang in galleries. We certainly had to pay to reproduce the C16th paintings by Arcimboldo that we used in Nobilis.

The deal is this: even if the painting is centuries out of copyright, the museum or gallery isn't going to let you take your own reproduction-quality image of it. They control the print-quality images (scans, photographs or whatever), either dispensing them themselves or sub-letting the rights to picture libraries like Bridgeman. All the book illustrations, posters, postcards and so on will have been made using licensed copies of the image, and if you scan them for your own use you will be in breach of copyright.

Will you be caught if you do it? Maybe. Is it morally wrong? Yes. Will you get better-quality images if you go through the proper channels? Definitely. Is it cheaper than using new artwork? That depends on who the artists -- new and old -- are.

There's an alternative. Check out our "Baron Munchausen" game for an example: it's stuffed full of really gorgeous Gustave Dore woodcuts. We bought an 1867 French edition of the stories of Baron Munchausen and scanned all the artwork from it. Art budget for the whole game: $130 or so.

Egil
05-22-2002, 05:58 PM
AND you got a really lovely book. (I should know, I have it too.)

Kuma, there are Art History books old enough to be public, and the pics are really good, too.

Copyright law is hugely, horrendously variable, and you cannot really count on anything made ater 1860 to be public for certain, depending on the country. (Apollinaire and Saki, eg, won't be public until 2066 and 2016, respectively).

If you intend to alter those pics, you can get away with using a scanned book as a basis.

www.loc.gov
www.bnf.fr
www.bl.uk
http://www.nlr.ru:8101/eng/index.html

Aries
05-22-2002, 06:44 PM
With all of the confusion relating to public domain art, it makes me very leary of using it.

Pierce Inverarity
05-26-2002, 01:45 PM
I don't want to reiterate what I said in another thread already, I just want to clarify the "artbook from before 1923" issue: The salient question is always who is holding the copyright of the *art object* (rather than of the photograph or the book in which it is reproduced) *right now*.

So, if you find a book from 1921 on say Velazquez, and you like the Meninas, you would *still* have to ask the Prado in Madrid for permission to reproduce that painting (or have Bridgeman handle it for you, and pay them a fee for that).

Again, I'm not just stating my opinion on the matter--I'm telling you how things actually stand from my professional experience in publishing.

However! As I said in an earlier thread, and as James Wallis mentioned re. Baron Munchausen, one way to avoid spending lots of $$$ for repro permissions is to go for prints rather than paintings. And in that case the "pre-1923" issue does become important.

Guildofblades
05-26-2002, 08:53 PM
Copyrights on pictures laps the same as copyrights on written material.

One safe method you would have for artwork reproductions would do something similar to what James did and find pictures of the artwork in question that are old enough to be outside of copyright protection due to their age.

I'm not sure, but I also think that not all pcitures may be copyright protected. The theory about letting a photographer claim copyright on photos they take is because the photograph a "creative works". However, that does not give the photographer the right to claim copyrights on photos that contain other people's intellectual properties. That means they can't publish photos with other company's trademarked phrases or symbols, nor may they publish a person without their permission (with the exception of news media).

That being said, it might very well be that a photograph of something that is already Public Domain may not alter he public domain status of the works unless a reasonable claim can be made that the photograph introduces a new element which would alter the original image (such a containing a background, taken at a odd angle...I don't know) sufficiently.

Sure, Meseums may be able to control when and how photographs are taken, but that is irrelevant to the status of Public Domain as it relales to those items. The question that you really need to probe is weather those photograghs are copyright protected or they also fall into the public domain because they are nothing but a snap shot of a public domain image.

NPC Rallan
05-28-2002, 02:48 AM
The smart move (at least with old works that aren't in the hands of private collectors) would be to track down the museums, galleries, libraries etc that the originals are at and ask them whether you _have_ to get a copy from them or whether it's legal to freely aquire a copy from someone else. After all, they're the professional art dudes, so they should know a damn site more about it than any of us.

Unfortunately it won't help you with stuff that's in private collections, and I get the feeling a lot of zillionaires and mob bosses out there aren't really gonna appreciate some guy hassling them about getting prints of famous works in their possession so he can use them for some sort of kooky little nerd game :)



Rallan
- still haven't remembered my password, so thank god we haven't killed the NPC account

Dan Norder
06-02-2002, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by NPC Rallan
The smart move (at least with old works that aren't in the hands of private collectors) would be to track down the museums, galleries, libraries etc that the originals are at and ask them whether you _have_ to get a copy from them or whether it's legal to freely aquire a copy from someone else. After all, they're the professional art dudes, so they should know a damn site more about it than any of us.

The problem with this theory is no museum is going to say, "Yes, use it for free. We legally don't have rights." when they can charge you instead. Many have already tricked a lot of people into thinking they control copyrights on things they can't possibly have.

And I don't see how anyone can claim that paintings aren't in public domain if they were made before 1923 and then turn around and say prints and woodcuts are. You can't legally differentiate between the two types of art under copyright law.

Dan Norder
Inklings Press