[Star Wars d20] Sell me on it, now that I have it [Archive]

Paradoxish

08-02-2003, 01:30 PM

Well, as I mentioned in my other thread, I bought Star Wars d20 and have now finished reading it over. I started a new thread since this is a mostly different topic. Plus, some of the replies might be useful to people on the fence about buying it.

Okay then. Like I said, I've bought and read the core rulebook. I'm not so sure that I like what I've read, but maybe I'm misinterpreting some things or just not seeing everything correctly since I haven't had any actual play experience. As it stands, though, I'm getting a very D&D-in-space vibe.

...

Okay! Don't flame me yet! I know that I'm probably wrong. I know that calling it D&D-in-space is probably the worst offense I can make to the game's fans. So... prove me wrong. Explain to me why this is a good system for Star Wars and what about it really seperates it from D&D.

(and, for those of actually remember my other thread, I've still decided to use d6 for my upcoming campaign. that said, I don't like my RPG purchases going unused. I will use this game in the future, but I want to know about its strengths and weaknesses in play first.)

Phantom Stranger

08-02-2003, 01:38 PM

The one game of it I played had that feel. Having said that, so did the players.

Evan Waters

08-02-2003, 02:08 PM

Well, I'm not sure what really constitutes "D&D in space." (Except maybe the old METAMORPHOSIS ALPHA game.) So it's hard to really say whether it's that or not. I mean, there are key differences between the systems (the Vitality/Wound split, in the Revised Core Book armor reduces damage instead of increasing defense), also a lot of similarities- but while it's still a class-level system, the classes aren't really analogous to those in D&D. The Fighter and Soldier are kinda close, but other than that STAR WARS's classes tend to have a broader scope, leaning more towards archetype than profession. I mean, D&D3e and d20 STAR WARS will play somewhat similar by nature as they use the same mechanics, but I'm not sure that'd be an impediment to it also feeling STAR WARSy.

I think one clear plus about it is, because it was done after Ep. I came out with all its Jedi-fu, the rules handle Force stuff more clearly than the d6 version managed, along with rules relating to Jedi and their ways that d6 never really was compelled to address (things like building a lightsaber, just when you clear the hurdle from Jedi-in-training to full Jedi, etc.)

pawsplay

08-02-2003, 03:07 PM

It has a stronger emphasis on character interaction that D&D. Classes are fairly versatile; a Tech Specialist, Fringer, and Soldier could all be crack pilots, just different kinds of pilots. Almost all offensive abilities, whether personal military hardware or force powers, fall in roughly the 1d8 to 5d6 damage range, dangerous but not necessarily instantly deadly to characters. Mastercraft items and the occasional Jedi or Sith artifact are all you get in the way of "magic items." Very few class features would be pertinent to characters not of that class. For instance, it would be hard to argue why most characters with resource access wouldn't be Nobles.

It is slightly tilted toward defense, just like the movies, but a direct hit is serious business. A critical goes right to your Wound points, and any Wound damage can stun you. "I love you." "I know."

Coriander

08-02-2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Phantom Stranger
The one game of it I played had that feel. Having said that, so did the players.

Do I know you?

That was exactly my experience. I guess it depends on the GM and players, but my view is that the default setting is D&DinSpace.

In fact the SWD20 I played was more D&D like than the D&D I've played recently.

RedFox

08-02-2003, 04:56 PM

Numbers. Stats. Derived stats. Levels. Feats. Pre-requisites. Armor Class. Ugh.

Too many numbers for me, is what I learned from trying it. While I love the Vitality / Wound Points idea, the rest of the system just isn't very cinematic. Too crunch-oriented for my liking.

Like D&D, you have to be pretty intimate with the system knowledge before you can start guesstimating stats of things you throw at the party with any degree of certainty. It has a wider fulcrum upon which game balance pivots than does D&D, but only just.

pawsplay

08-02-2003, 05:40 PM

While I don't feel like it captures the scope and spirit of the movies, I think it does a pretty good job of recreating the world. I'll post some playtest once I have a chance to run it.

JDCorley

08-02-2003, 06:05 PM

Since D&D has no setting and Star Wars D20 does...I have no clue what "feels like D&D in space" means. At all. Period. End of story.

Coriander

08-02-2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by JDCorley
Since D&D has no setting and Star Wars D20 does...I have no clue what "feels like D&D in space" means. At all. Period. End of story.

I don't understand why a setting for D&D would be necessary for you to understand what is meant by "feels like D&D in space". At all. Period. End of story.

Gentleman Highwayman

08-02-2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Paradoxish
Okay! Don't flame me yet! I know that I'm probably wrong. I know that calling it D&D-in-space is probably the worst offense I can make to the game's fans. So... prove me wrong. Explain to me why this is a good system for Star Wars and what about it really seperates it from D&D.

I played 6 month solid of Living Force. Two weeks ago we finished a trilogy (three adventure story) mixing Star Wars and Necromunda.

Star Wars D20 is not D&D in space ... unfortunately it's not really Star Wars either. It is for me the most enjoyable D20 rules set I own and that includes Spycraft.

The big things about Star Wars D20 are Vitality and Force Points. The VP/WP thing I should have to explain. VP = close shot, WP = hit meat. The mook rule that follows is that mooks don't get vitality. That means you could run into 10th level Soldier mooks. Force Points rock because they grown as the character does and you have to earn them. You only get freebies by going up a level. The other way is as a reward for doing daring stuff or something very in character. (Wasn't really a fan of the 3 action dice per night of Spycraft which I played over the same time frame.)

You can ditch the space out of space opera and run it as a fantasy game. I'm thinking of running a dieselpunk game with no energy pack weapons or formal Jedi. The Hero's Guide rocks for the system even if it's full of non-canon stuff.

Star Wars D20 is a great game, it's just not Stars Wars.

Iain.

Gurpsian

08-02-2003, 08:05 PM

Star Wars Gamer was, in all seriousness, a consistently excellent gaming magazine. Always had an adventure (usually two) in every issue, plus cool stuff on spaceships (lots of deckplans), backgrounds on aliens, even a solitaire adventure once. Fun stuff.

Of course, it's dead now.

RedFox

08-02-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Gurpsian
Star Wars Gamer was, in all seriousness, a consistently excellent gaming magazine. Always had an adventure (usually two) in every issue, plus cool stuff on spaceships (lots of deckplans), backgrounds on aliens, even a solitaire adventure once. Fun stuff.

Of course, it's dead now.

It died right before I was going to subscribe. :(

NPC Jeremy

08-02-2003, 09:00 PM

1) Go buy an Xbox (if you don't have one)

2) Go buy Knights of the Old Republic

3) Play Knights of the Old Republic.

I am a huge, huge, huge Star Wars d6 fan. While I do like d20, I really really disliked Star Wars d20.

Until I recently played KOTOR.

While I still like D6 better, KOTOR does a great job of portraying the Star Wars universe, and it uses the d20 mechanics. Especially the Force. I usually never allowed Force using Characters in D6 Star Wars, because the system was kind of screwy, IMHO.

teitan

08-02-2003, 09:13 PM

Star Wars is so NOT DnD in space, that is Dragonstar. Star Wars, like any system, depends on the players and GM working together to create the feeling of the source material. If the players don't want to play HEROIC Science Fantasy adventures then the game won't play HEROIC Science Fantasy adventures in the same way that if your players don't want to play two fisted pulp adventures, Adventure won't be two fisted pulp adventures or if they don't want to play angsty vampires upset at their unlife and the fact they have to slay their fellow humans then Vampire won't be that. It is not a flaw of the game at all.

I ran a Star Wars adventure a few months back and I enjoyed it immensely and so did my players. The chase rules were great and the game is cinematic if you understand how to use the rules cinematically, as in interpretation of the rules as written in the book into actual play. It is all in the descriptions you use for the actions the PCs are taking. I actually learned a lot about how to play hit points in running Star Wars when I had to explain how a hit wasn't a hit, but a very close call, draining vitality. Made things very cinematic. That is part of the key, describing the loss of VP. If you reduce it to "you lose 12 Vitality when the clone trooper shoots at you" then you lose the feel of Star Wars. Take that same scenario and redo it: WHen you round the corner chasing the Bounty Hunter, a shot goes off, causing a barrel of some chemical behind you to explode. You dive out of the way just in time, but the action costs you 12 Vitality points, and when you look up you see a Clone Trooper standing with a freshly fired blaster rifle!". You will get to a point where such a long winded exposition is un-necessary as you become more comfortable with the system, but that is the best way to get that Star Wars feel.

The mook rules really add to the idea that even a 1st level character is going to beat a party of 10th level Stormies. Combat is very fast with these rules and combat is also very deadly as crits are direct damage to your wound points, causing fatigue and penalties to your actions, if you survive. Jedi are just deadly with their sabers so watch out there...

In all honestly, for a good SW game you only need the core book, revised though. That first version is CRAP, CRAP, CRAP. If you really want to expand your game though find the Darkside SOurcebook, the Power of the Jedi, the Arms and Equipment guide and Coruscant books (I think Geonosis would be a good edition when it comes out). The Darkside and Jedi books really add to the force in the game and contain a lot of adventure seeds. They draw a lot of inspiration from the comic books as well, especially the Darkside book, where most of the pre-prequel material has been developed by Dark Horse Comics. Good stuff there... finally, material that doesn't focus on a Skywalker. I read the shit out of the Tales of the jedi material. That stuff is a great resource for Star Wars roleplaying, best era for a pen n paper game.

Jason

JDCorley

08-03-2003, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Coriander
I don't understand why a setting for D&D would be necessary for you to understand what is meant by "feels like D&D in space". At all. Period. End of story.

Okay. Prove me wrong. What does "feels like D&D in space" mean?

bentleyml

08-03-2003, 12:20 AM

D&D in space is Dragonstar. ;)

Paradoxish

08-03-2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by JDCorley
Okay. Prove me wrong. What does "feels like D&D in space" mean?

Sure. I probably should've been more clear in my first post.

Rules make the game. You can do anything you want with any RPG, but it's still going to 'feel' a certain way because you're using certain mechanics. D&D 3e does a good job, in my opinion, of capturing the way AD&D felt. The game system focuses on lots of battles and wearing characters down rather than any particular fight being incredibly important. Unless the PCs are incredibly outmatched, there's not much actual risk most of the time.

In dungeon crawl settings that works great, because the party has limited resources and a limited ability to renew them. It'll work (and D&D won't necessarily break) for any kind of scenario, but it just is very well suited to that kind of stuff.

Star Wars d20 gave me the same vibe. In the movies, the heroes always clearly outclassed the bad guys, but the fights were still dramatic and had the illusion of risk. I never got the impression that Luke and Han could stand there and fight off wave after wave of stormtroopers on their own since they pretty much never did. Most of the fights involving large numbers of participants either started with an ambush or ended with the heroes making a fighting retreat.

Star Wars d20, on the other hand, seems to emphasize D&D-style "stand and fight 'cuz weapons aren't all that dangerous anyway" battles. Other things give me the impression that it'd play a lot like a D&D game as well, but combat was just the obvious choice.

Of course, I could very well be wrong. That was kind of the point of this thread.

Edit- also, as you pointed out, by saying D&D in space I pretty obviously didn't mean "fantasy in space". D&D has no real built-in setting; I was just referring to mechanics.

Ian ORourke

08-03-2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by Paradoxish
Star Wars d20 gave me the same vibe. In the movies, the heroes always clearly outclassed the bad guys, but the fights were still dramatic and had the illusion of risk. I never got the impression that Luke and Han could stand there and fight off wave after wave of stormtroopers on their own since they pretty much never did. Most of the fights involving large numbers of participants either started with an ambush or ended with the heroes making a fighting retreat.

I'd get some Actual Play of people, as I believe this may be the same in Star Wars D20.

Remember that it only takes on lucky shot to have damage applied to a relatively small amount of HP? The chances of that alone should stop characters standing in the open against the hordes.

Also remember, arn't Stormtroopers something like 6th level in Star Wars D20? I forget.

It all depends on how they play out in actual play. The key to the Star Wars system is the VP/WP rules. It allows characters to be heroic, but keeps that feeling of risk in the back of their heads, it also allows for DM/Player to be free with how they describe the VP loss, thus freeing up players to protagonise their characters. This is particularly true in lightsaber duels, as the characters can descrive blocks and stuff as VP loss - thus avoiding the problem with systems that directly map actions (such as D6) having a failed parry, I'm dead.

I like both systems, but if I was running a game with Jedi in it then I'd go D20 - and I'd have no worry it would not feel like Star Wars.

But anyway, everyone's mileage varies.

Margrave Yuri

08-03-2003, 02:46 AM

While I am not a D20 fan at all, I like D20 Star Wars for two reasons.

Firstly- With regard to your 'D&D in space' comment, I can easily see how you would draw that conclusion. Indeed, with many GMs, that's exactly how it would be run. I think that, with the right GM, however, the game can feel very 'Star Wars'ish. The campaign I am playing is certainly does, at any rate. With a GM who doesn't know his Star Wars, or who has a bad grasp on drama and pacing, then the game would suck harder than Ginger Lynn.

Secondly- It's getting a lot of supplements, which are covering a lot of Expanded Universe stuff. While some movie purists may spit at me, I love the Expanded Universe. I love it because it adds more scope to the setting. Sure, virtually none of the new stuff lives up to the original trilogy in terms of epic-ness, it does mean a bigger and more interesting universe to roleplay in. Sure, it's not from the pen of George Lucas, but face it, his new movies are shit when compared to the old ones. Even he can't expand his own universe and keep the 'Star Wars' feel. With D20 Star Wars, the universe keeps growing.

But there are also a couple of things I don't like about it...

Firstly - The books are too fucken expensive. They're making hardcovers of books which are thin enough to be softcovers and chucking an extra $10 on the price tag. Now, I know the license must've been expensive, but it's not like Hasbro have to stop to pick up quarters off the goddamn sidewalk. Every time I buy a Star Wars sourcebook, there's a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I'm being quietly screwed.

Secondly - Levels. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I fucking hate level-based advancement. If I ever meet Gary Gygax, I'm gonna thank him for creating our hobby, then I'm gonna break his jaw for inventing character levels. It's a stupid, stupid, stupid mechanic.

Wizdoc

08-03-2003, 03:09 AM

Yes, I too believe that the VP/WP is a good way to emulate the cinematic feel of the movie while still maintaining a certain level of danger.

I had a 1st level Jedi Guardian in the game who happily slashed away a small group of battle droids (those things have something like 8 wound points and no vitality, and are lousy shots), like a good Jedi should. But it only took one lucky shot that critted and he dropped, and would've died unless his buddies would've come to the rescue.

Best of all, I didn't need to "fudge" anything to let the character shine. He was competent enough to decimate a number of mooks, but still vulnerable enough with his non-growing Wound Points so there was always that level of underlying lethality.

I wouldn't put a Jedi in a lightsaber duel before level 5-7, though. In lower levels, even a non-critical hit can kill a character instantly, leaving little margin for error if the combat is played with very lethal energy blades.

Originally posted by Margrave Yuri
Secondly - Levels. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I fucking hate level-based advancement. If I ever meet Gary Gygax, I'm gonna thank him for creating our hobby, then I'm gonna break his jaw for inventing character levels. It's a stupid, stupid, stupid mechanic.

I don't know. While I don't much care about D&D or d20 either, the level-based system seems to fit Star Wars well. It gives a clear marker of how far "advanced" each character is, gives a good picture of their power level which in turn helps me as a GM to set up challenging enough adversaries and obstacles.

This is high-pointed in the Jedi characters. In d6 system, it was hard to get a clear grasp on the overall skill level of a would-be Jedi student since it was rather freeform to put points into Force powers, attributes and skills. But in d20, it's level 1-6, student. After that, pass the Trials and build a lightsaber, and you are proficient enough to be a Jedi Knight. Simple as that. Even as I usually prefer point-based systems and the freedom their bring, in Star Wars' case, I embrace the structure.

Ian ORourke

08-03-2003, 05:43 AM

Another good point about the VP/WP system, and again it's related to the Jedi, which I think we all know are the hardest characters to simulate and integrate with other types.

When it comes to 'doing the jedi thing' say blocking blaster bolts, because the VP/WP sysytem is abstract a Jedi can do the cool Jedi thing without being omnipotent. When he is facing the lowly mooks (say Battle Droids) the Droids will either be missing him or he may well be actually blocking (you could describe either a the Jedi blocking, who cares, either way it's a miss).

When it comes to more advanced enemies, equals so to speak, such as a lethal Bounty Hunter - does the Jedi look uncool and get riddled with Blaster shots? Or does the lethal Bounty Hunter look like a softy due to having all his blaster shots blocked? No, because the Bounty rains down blaster bolts and the Jedi looses VP as he hastily blocks the bolts (just the special effect describing the VP loss - as long as he his not allowed to reflect the bolt who cares). In reality, both sides win, the Bounty Hunter does the stream of shots to get the Jedi and knows its just a matter of time before he tags him (critical or he runs out of VP) and the Jedi gets to do the cool blocking, all be it in a frenzied 'crap this guys good sort of way'. The same is true in reverse.

So VP really allows the heroic elements to take place, thus protagonising characters, while no de-protagonising anyone else. In systems with set actions/reactions this can be harder to do. In short the VP/WP system is great narrative tool to enable the heroic elements in the story, as well as being a way to keep 'don't be too stupid' in the back of the players mind. Everyone wins really.

Everyone'es mileage may vary - as usual.

Coriander

08-03-2003, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by JDCorley
Okay. Prove me wrong. What does "feels like D&D in space" mean?

I don't understand what exactly you want me to prove.

You said;"Since D&D has no setting and Star Wars D20 does...I have no clue what "feels like D&D in space" means. At all. Period. End of story."

I believe you that you have no clue what "feels like D&D in space" means. My post simply said that I don't understand the relationship between that and the lack of setting in off-the-peg D&D. It's not as if you can play D&D without a setting. It just doesn't come tightly bound to a setting.

I would suggest that you might want to prove a relationship between setting and feel that precludes a relationship between system and feel. That seems to me to be what you were implying in your post.

But just saying 'prove me wrong' when you just explained you didn't know what something meant is nonsense.

Paradoxish

08-03-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Ian ORourke
I'd get some Actual Play of people, as I believe this may be the same in Star Wars D20.

That's what I'm trying to do. ;)

Actually, I really appreciate most of the responses so far. I know the VP/WP thing was one of the pivotal differences, but it's the kind of thing that I was having trouble visualizing in play. That is, I completely understand the system, but I wasn't sure if it would make that much of a difference in actual play. Based on what I've read, though, it sounds like it will.

I'm planning a short one-off adventure for next week with my current group. I'll get my feet wet a bit with the system, test it out, and see if I like how it plays.

Gentleman Highwayman

08-03-2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Paradoxish
Actually, I really appreciate most of the responses so far. I know the VP/WP thing was one of the pivotal differences, but it's the kind of thing that I was having trouble visualizing in play. That is, I completely understand the system, but I wasn't sure if it would make that much of a difference in actual play. Based on what I've read, though, it sounds like it will.

My 8th level Force Adept has been at death door twice. With the VP/WP system you are always just one (un)lucky shot away from death. 6th level mooks can deal a lot of damage before you send them to the deli table off screen.

Iain.

JDCorley

08-03-2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Coriander
My post simply said that I don't understand the relationship between that and the lack of setting in off-the-peg D&D. It's not as if you can play D&D without a setting. It just doesn't come tightly bound to a setting.

Exactly. You can't play D&D without a setting. But it doesn't come with one. Therefore everyone who plays D&D plays D&D with a different feel. In fact, my last three D&D campaigns have all had extremely different feels. Hell, two of them had wildly different feels and were both in the same world-setting, although not the same general area or chronological time period. "Adventurers in the Forgotten Realms exploring, defeating evil and gaining fame and fortune" is an enormously different feel from "Daggerdale Guardsmen trying to keep the peace and balance their duties against their loyalties during the Zhentil occupation".

So my question is very simple and remains unanswered: what does "feels like D&D in space" mean? Exactly. Tell me exactly what it means and then we can see whether Star Wars D20 feels the same way.

Coriander

08-03-2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by JDCorley
Exactly. You can't play D&D without a setting. But it doesn't come with one. Therefore everyone who plays D&D plays D&D with a different feel. In fact, my last three D&D campaigns have all had extremely different feels. Hell, two of them had wildly different feels and were both in the same world-setting, although not the same general area or chronological time period. "Adventurers in the Forgotten Realms exploring, defeating evil and gaining fame and fortune" is an enormously different feel from "Daggerdale Guardsmen trying to keep the peace and balance their duties against their loyalties during the Zhentil occupation".

You talk a lot about feel there, yet you also posted;

No game or show or ANYTHING has a "feel".

It makes me think you're talking bollocks.

So my question is very simple and remains unanswered: what does "feels like D&D in space" mean? Exactly. Tell me exactly what it means and then we can see whether Star Wars D20 feels the same way.

My question was very simple, also, and remains unanswered. I guess we're just not very good at communication. Or something.

JDCorley

08-03-2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Coriander
[B]You talk a lot about feel there, yet you also posted;No game or show or ANYTHING has a "feel".It makes me think you're talking bollocks.
[B]

In general, I think when an RPG.net post says "feel", it doesn't mean anything at all. It's like when a post says "this game is broken!" or "this is inexcusable!" It literally doesn't mean anything.

However, someone posted a dictionary definition of "feel" in a different thread, very recently, so I got it mixed up with this one. I was using the dictionary definition, NOT the useless RPG.net definition. Thanks for the clarification.

My question was very simple, also, and remains unanswered. I guess we're just not very good at communication. Or something.

What, this question?

Do I know you?

That's to Phantom Stranger and I don't know whether you know him or not.

That's the only question you've asked in this thread, so maybe you're also getting this thread mixed up with another.

Coriander

08-03-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by JDCorley
That's the only question you've asked in this thread, so maybe you're also getting this thread mixed up with another.
Well, I posted this. It doesn't end in a question mark (I know they can be helpful) but it is clear that this is asking for an answer, right (question mark)

"I would suggest that you might want to prove a relationship between setting and feel that precludes a relationship between system and feel."

Coriander

08-03-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by JDCorley

However, someone posted a dictionary definition of "feel" in a different thread, very recently, so I got it mixed up with this one. I was using the dictionary definition, NOT the useless RPG.net definition. Thanks for the clarification.

You're welcome. Dictionaries can be useful when you don't know what people are talking about. Generally, you'll be using them before you post in future, though, I hope.

TechnoGothic

08-03-2003, 02:05 PM

for anyone who believes StarWars is D&D in space, see this article :

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20030529tips

StarWars has a way differnt feel when compaired this way....

As for the D20 Starwars selling....
WHY Not ??
I used to own the D06 version years ago, water damage, never bought another copy cause eof the Non-Jedi / Jedi problems....
Now, i played D20 StarWars back around Christmas time with a good old friend who was visiting his family. I liked it :eek: the first and only D20 game i have liked. What i liked was Armor didnt add to Defense, but instead Armor has a Damage Reduction value. Basicly what i saw in StarWarsD20 was what i wanted in the D&D3e system to begin with....maybe it was just better Writting too...

So why not, use the D20 StarWars rpg, specially the its sourcebooks that ive seen in stores....wierd i can find the sourcbooks in stores, but not the rpg itself, so ordered online earlier....

JDCorley

08-03-2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Coriander
Well, I posted this. It doesn't end in a question mark (I know they can be helpful) but it is clear that this is asking for an answer, right (question mark)

"I would suggest that you might want to prove a relationship between setting and feel that precludes a relationship between system and feel."

No, it's making a suggestion, one I consider to be pretty nonsensical, so I ignored it.

I am not the one that says that SWD20 and "feels" like "D&D in space". Why should I have to prove anything? I am the one doubting the assertion that is being made. I am not going to go around trying to prove a negative. Particularly not when nobody will even tell me what it means to "feel like D&D in space". Perhaps "feels like D&D in space" means that SWD20 sometimes uses D6s for damage, has some combat, and they're both published in hardcover. I would happily withdraw my objection if this was the definition of "feels like D&D in space" people are using.

You're welcome. Dictionaries can be useful when you don't know what people are talking about. Generally, you'll be using them before you post in future, though, I hope.

1. Awwww, cute. I am sure you get major points with some people for saying things like that. In its own post, even! I guess you didn't want us to miss your rapier wit. I am stricken, stricken to the core. But how could it be humiliating for me to be bested by someone so brilliant and Right About Everything? No, no, as I am only a mere mortal, I accept the abuse with a bowed head and a single grateful tear that you would even deign to notice me at all.

2. Since you still refuse to tell me what you're talking about, I don't think the dictionary is going to tell me.

pawsplay

08-03-2003, 02:22 PM

It doesn't seem to revolve around killing people and taking their stuff, but d20 Star Wars does have leveling, niche protection, extensive equipment lists, implausible monocultures, and a strong tactical focus.

TechnoGothic

08-03-2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by JDCorley
No, it's making a suggestion, one I consider to be pretty nonsensical, so I ignored it.

I am not the one that says that SWD20 and "feels" like "D&D in space". Why should I have to prove anything? I am the one doubting the assertion that is being made. I am not going to go around trying to prove a negative. Particularly not when nobody will even tell me what it means to "feel like D&D in space". Perhaps "feels like D&D in space" means that SWD20 sometimes uses D6s for damage, has some combat, and they're both published in hardcover. I would happily withdraw my objection if this was the definition of "feels like D&D in space" people are using.

no need to withdraw.....
we are just discussing it so far, no flames have erupted :D

*Ace&Gary looking at Villians* What ??

i said Flames, not flamers.... :D

seriouly though.....

Been going to the Starwarsrpg section of the WotC site, and its tips and tactics section has answered alot of thoughts about the game....

TechnoGothic

08-03-2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by pawsplay
It doesn't seem to revolve around killing people and taking their stuff, but d20 Star Wars does have leveling, niche protection, extensive equipment lists, implausible monocultures, and a strong tactical focus.

Yah the Basic *Feel* of StarWars it so differnt that the basic *feel* of D&D3e+....

The StarWars game isnt just focused on Killing said enemy and looting things....i know i know, not all D&D groups play like that, but too many Newbie DMs do go the Kill-Loot route, and too many groups themselves perfer those types of games, since most are general short adventures and big rewards thoughout.....

Anyways....

Having an established Background/setting like StarWars also helps break this trend of Kill-Looting mentality. Except for the Scoundrle types ;)

i was thinkng of playing with The Whole group as Jedi, unless someone want to play a non-jedi, which case i may give them a bonus level or two at games start....The group with be Jedi-in-training, with a Jedi master watching over them for whatever reason....

Maybe someone will go down the dark-side during play who knows :D

Phantom Stranger

08-03-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by JDCorley
That's to Phantom Stranger and I don't know whether you know him or not.

That's the only question you've asked in this thread, so maybe you're also getting this thread mixed up with another.

Almost certainly, incidentally, you don't, or not from that. (If you do know me from that situation, then I suspect I was playing your PC).

JDCorley

08-03-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by pawsplay
It doesn't seem to revolve around killing people and taking their stuff, but d20 Star Wars does have leveling, niche protection, extensive equipment lists, implausible monocultures, and a strong tactical focus.

Sounds good. D6 Star Wars has the feel of D&D3, too, then. With the possible exception of levelling (depending on whether you count going from a +2 bonus to another D bonus as levelling - I think in some later versions of the system this mattered, didn't it?), and maybe the exception of tactical focus (2-2.5e had a fair amount of tactical focus as I recall), it has everything on that list. (D6s equipment list is actually a lot bigger, but it's had time to grow.) :)

Do you have to have everything on that list to have the "feel" of D&D3? For example, I note that D&D3 itself does not have any "implausible monocultures", because it has no setting. Does this mean D&D itself does not have the "feel" of D&D?

teitan

08-03-2003, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Margrave Yuri

Firstly - The books are too fucken expensive. They're making hardcovers of books which are thin enough to be softcovers and chucking an extra $10 on the price tag. Now, I know the license must've been expensive, but it's not like Hasbro have to stop to pick up quarters off the goddamn sidewalk. Every time I buy a Star Wars sourcebook, there's a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I'm being quietly screwed.

Secondly - Levels. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I fucking hate level-based advancement. If I ever meet Gary Gygax, I'm gonna thank him for creating our hobby, then I'm gonna break his jaw for inventing character levels. It's a stupid, stupid, stupid mechanic.

For your first point, WOTC is publishing these books in FULL COLOR and the price would have only been maybe a two or three dollar difference when it comes to softcover and hardcover, look at the definitely overpriced FR books (unlike Star Wars, WOTC OWNS FR) and how close in price the similarly sized hardcovers are to the softcovers, maybe 2 or 3 bucks. Look at the negative feedback on the B&W Star Wars books that Wizards put out in the original CRAP CRAP CRAP edition. They have better artists on these books now and to put that stuff in a softcover and in color would bring back memories of Magic of Faerun or Monsters of Faerun price wise. Don't get me wrong, the quality on the books is great, but the prices are outrageous. God Bless EBAY. Somebody even tried to tellme I am paying for the FR name!!! LOL

Anyway, your second point is easy to resolve. How do you resolve issues of level based advancement? Well, don't give them their XP until the current adventure is over, run time forward to represent training etc and voila, level based advancement issues solved...

Jason

Coriander

08-03-2003, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by teitan

Anyway, your second point is easy to resolve. How do you resolve issues of level based advancement? Well, don't give them their XP until the current adventure is over, run time forward to represent training etc and voila, level based advancement issues solved...

For a lot of people who don't like the level based advancement thing, this isn't gonna solve it. It's more of an aesthetic or plausibility thing, rather than a logistical one.

teitan

08-03-2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Coriander
For a lot of people who don't like the level based advancement thing, this isn't gonna solve it. It's more of an aesthetic or plausibility thing, rather than a logistical one.

Well, poopy on them. That is just bullocks and silly elitism...

Jason

Margrave Yuri

08-04-2003, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by teitan

For your first point, WOTC is publishing these books in FULL COLOR and the price would have only been maybe a two or three dollar difference when it comes to softcover and hardcover, look at the definitely overpriced FR books (unlike Star Wars, WOTC OWNS FR) and how close in price the similarly sized hardcovers are to the softcovers, maybe 2 or 3 bucks. Look at the negative feedback on the B&W Star Wars books that Wizards put out in the original CRAP CRAP CRAP edition. They have better artists on these books now and to put that stuff in a softcover and in color would bring back memories of Magic of Faerun or Monsters of Faerun price wise. Don't get me wrong, the quality on the books is great, but the prices are outrageous. God Bless EBAY. Somebody even tried to tellme I am paying for the FR name!!! LOL

I agree with what you're saying about the FR books. They are too damn expensive for what they are. The price on the D&D splatbooks also makes me see red - That price would be reasonable - if the books didn't have a lower page count than George W's IQ. But I for one wouldn't really mind if the SWRPG sourcebooks were b/w, softcover and cheaper, as long as the content was still as good - but I'm biased, 'cause I order most of my stuff over the Net and some retailers charge postage by weight... And not all the art is that good. One of the artists in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook (can't remember which one), is total shite. He's the one with the lightsabers that look like fuckin' candyfloss sticks.

Originally posted by Coriander

For a lot of people who don't like the level based advancement thing, this isn't gonna solve it. It's more of an aesthetic or plausibility thing, rather than a logistical one.

For me, it's a plausibility issue. There's far too much of a power difference between a 1st level character and a 20th level character. Basing everything in a character's stats on what level they are is bollocks, IMO.

Take the real world as an example: Two lawyers - one is a fresh out of law school junior partner. The other is a senior partner who's been at the bar for 20 years. While the senior partner is probably a better lawyer than the junior, when compared he is not virtually godlike in ability compared to the junior. The junior may actually be even a better lawyer than him, considering that the junior may be especially competent and/or the senior bad at what he does. Levels completely ignore this logic in favour of a gamist principle.

Plus, at lower levels, there is such a marked improvement when a character levels up that it stretches belief. Statistically, a 2nd level character is nearly twice as good as a 1st level character at their chosen profession.

Originally posted by teitan

Well, poopy on them. That is just bullocks and silly elitism...

That's bullshit. What's so fucking elitist about not liking a shit rule? Now I'll admit that I'm a man who gets mad easily, but it's fucked-in-the-head comments like this from people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about that really gets my goat. I thought you had a couple of intelligent things to say in your previous post, and you even said something I agreed with, but then you turn around and throw a dumbass assertion like that in the mix. Not liking levels doesn't make me, or anyone else 'elitist'. Am I elitist because I think the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles RPG is a load of steaming horse-shit? No. What does make me elitist, though, is that I won't game with dumbasses who spout shit like that.

Okay, I'm not pissed anymore ;)

Ian ORourke

08-04-2003, 02:09 AM

To be honest I quite liked the level-based advancement, but then I tend not to run Star Wars in a week in week out fashion.

I tend to use structures similar to the movies in that I run 'episodes' across long time scales - a bit like a Saga approach.

So I may run a 12 episode run, each episode like a big event movie, and say the characters start at level 2 and are 14th for the last one. I just give them levels between episodes.

You can do the same with points, not saying you cannot, but I kinda like the levelling method when used this way.

naturaltwenty

08-04-2003, 05:12 AM

I have come to the following conclusion. JDCorley must be a Vulcan or an android. His constant posting about the feel of gaming puzzles me. Either he doesn't have a clue what it feels like to play a game or just likes to troll.

BTW D&D does have a standard setting. It's called Greyhawk..you know that place that feels like a bunch of countries pushed together to pseudo represent Europe, Asia, et. al. It is also where all the standard setting gods come from, i.e Pholtus, Kord, Olidimarra (sp?).

Get on the clue train and I bet you had a blast with the GNS thread.

Natural Twenty

Originally posted by JDCorley
Exactly. You can't play D&D without a setting. But it doesn't come with one. Therefore everyone who plays D&D plays D&D with a different feel. In fact, my last three D&D campaigns have all had extremely different feels. Hell, two of them had wildly different feels and were both in the same world-setting, although not the same general area or chronological time period. "Adventurers in the Forgotten Realms exploring, defeating evil and gaining fame and fortune" is an enormously different feel from "Daggerdale Guardsmen trying to keep the peace and balance their duties against their loyalties during the Zhentil occupation".

So my question is very simple and remains unanswered: what does "feels like D&D in space" mean? Exactly. Tell me exactly what it means and then we can see whether Star Wars D20 feels the same way.

JDCorley

08-04-2003, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Margrave Yuri
Take the real world as an example: Two lawyers - one is a fresh out of law school junior partner. The other is a senior partner who's been at the bar for 20 years. While the senior partner is probably a better lawyer than the junior, when compared he is not virtually godlike in ability compared to the junior. The junior may actually be even a better lawyer than him, considering that the junior may be especially competent and/or the senior bad at what he does. Levels completely ignore this logic in favour of a gamist principle.

Er, and this is why levels (as they are generally presented) are a pretty bad idea for games set in something like the real world. Since Star Wars isn't...I'm not sure this is a criticism of levels, or of the setting. Leia is a high-level noble character. And she can do everything better than the low level characters. Whole ship full of Rebel commandos and she survives longer than most, resists torture more, and (most important) banters better.

I think a system that doesn't reflect this would be a bad fit for Star Wars, unless you were aiming for a game that could be described as "what Star Wars would be like if it were real", which is a viable option. For such a game I would cap the levels at 5 and adjust difficulty numbers accordingly. I'm not sure what I would do with Jedi in such a case, in any system.

JDCorley

08-04-2003, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by naturaltwenty
I have come to the following conclusion. JDCorley must be a Vulcan or an android. His constant posting about the feel of gaming puzzles me. Either he doesn't have a clue what it feels like to play a game or just likes to troll.

Oh, I know what it feels like to play a game. But there's a huge difference between what it feels like to play in my D&D game and what it feels like to play in my wife's D&D game, so when people talk about D&D's "feel", I immediately want to shout "bollocks". Hell, I have run three different Vampire campaigns in my life and all three had wildly different "feels" despite being run basically at the same time, by the same GM, with the same players. And you quote yet a third example of what I'm talking about, my two wildly different-feeling D&D games set in different parts of the same game world.

From this I have concluded that if you talk about a game's feel without mentioning a specific campaign and specific campaign decisions, you are just talking about what it feels like to read the game and pretend that you might feel a particularly way if someone ran it in the way you imagine it would be run. And while, like all gamers, I have a high tolerance for make-believe, I only participate in that if it's fun.

BTW D&D does have a standard setting. It's called Greyhawk..you know that place that feels like a bunch of countries pushed together to pseudo represent Europe, Asia, et. al. It is also where all the standard setting gods come from, i.e Pholtus, Kord, Olidimarra (sp?).

Can you show me where in the PHB, DMG, or MM there is a single map of this setting? Perhaps a single city, or these "bunch of countries"? How about the page where they mention Pholtus or Olidimarra? Oh, wait. There is none. Thanks for proving my point.

Get on the clue train and I bet you had a blast with the GNS thread.

There is room on the clue train for many. And yes, I did, although I didn't participate much. :)

Ian ORourke

08-04-2003, 06:16 AM

I hate to find myself defending levels, as I tend to see them as a tool and nothing else. I also don't think a level-based game makes it necessarily gamist (assuming your using the GNS terms). Because if you are I think I could put forward a good argument on how VP/WP is a very strong narrativist element in the rules.

Also, while two lawyers may not be that far apart, Star Wars does not reflect the real world, I'd ask myself more if a Master Jedi and that fresh-faced soldier are that far apart.

That's the sort of world Star Wars is emulating. Heck, Star Wars is more heroic fantasy that science fiction anyway (and that is not to say it has a D&D feel - just that certain characters are better than others).