Silent Hill 3

[Topher]

Anyone pick it up yet?

Topher
(pissed that .hack/OUTBREAK has been pushed back to September 10th)

[Coyraven]

I am curious as well- I hope it is an improvement over the first two. I really would like a good horror game to play.

BTW- are the .hack games worth buying? They are not for rental out here, and I don't care to buy console games.

Thank you,
CR

[Wizdoc]

Yup. Picked it up as soon as it was released here in Europe. Played it through almost in one sitting. It is a great game, though not as good as the first one, IMHO, but on par with the second.

Extensive knowledge on the events of SH1 is a bonus, though not necessary, as the events in SH3 heavily tie into the first one.

[Balthazor]

I'm anxiously awaiting it's appearance out here in my neck o' the woods.

[Jupiter's Dawg]

It comes with the soundtrack.:)

So far, it's pretty good. The character models are very detailed, though Heather obviously graduated from the James Sunderland Academy of Not Bathing (ewww, she's nasty, even before all the blood starts flying). On the plus side, she doesn't catch emphysema after running seven steps like he did, and the knife is actually a passable (though not preferred) close combat weapon.

Everything seems to be a little too bright and visible for my tastes, though.

[Topher]

Originally posted by Coyraven

BTW- are the .hack games worth buying? They are not for rental out here, and I don't care to buy console games.

Thank you,
CR

Depends on whether you ask me or Magic Pink. ^_^ I like them a lot, and enjoy the random-dungeon retro-style gameplay elements. I think the story is fab, and the characters are interesting and distinct.

The simulated-MMORPG atmosphere is very well-done - F'rinstance, fellow player Mistral is always having to rush off because she's left the laundry out in the rain or has dinner burning in the oven, and uses emoticons in her speech (I understand that in the upcoming game, you find out she's been pregnant all this time and she leaves your party because she's off to the hospital to have the baby). The e-mail and message board elements add to the illusion that you're playing an online game with real people.

MP thinks the gameplay is boring, though. ^_^

Topher

[Topher]

Originally posted by Wizdoc
Extensive knowledge on the events of SH1 is a bonus, though not necessary, as the events in SH3 heavily tie into the first one.

I'm replaying 1 and 2, both to get the extra endings I haven't gotten yet, and to refresh my SH-Fu. I understand that if you have a completed SH2 game save on your memory card, you get four or five little bonus scenes in SH3 that refer back to the previous game. Stuff like Heather groping around in a dirty toilet, like James did in one scene in SH2.

Topher

[Balthazor]

Ah, just picked it up today. Can't wait to dig into it's evil goodness.

Though, what Topher mentions just above kinda ticks me off. I used to have the PS2 version of SH2, but ditched it in favor of the Xbox version. And, unfortunately, I trashed all the game saves as well.

Damn.

[Leggy Starlitz]

I have the xbox version of silent hill2
and the game freaking totally confuses me.

I'm stuck in the apartment building. I have a gun, I've meticulously searched every room, I can see the keys thru the locked barred hallway on the second floor but I cant leave the building area.

I have no idea what to do.
and the clock.
the clock makes me crazy.
no clue.

[Semah]

Originally posted by Leggy Starlitz
I have the xbox version of silent hill2
and the game freaking totally confuses me.

I'm stuck in the apartment building. I have a gun, I've meticulously searched every room, I can see the keys thru the locked barred hallway on the second floor but I cant leave the building area.

I have no idea what to do.
and the clock.
the clock makes me crazy.
no clue.

The poem on the wall tells you where to move the hands on the clock. H name for hour hand M name for minute hand. Then you pee your pants as I recall.

[True Blue]

Meh.


The only console game I've been waiting for is F-Zero GX.


- Aug 26 baby, TB.

[Tancred]

Originally posted by Jupiter's Dawg
Everything seems to be a little too bright and visible for my tastes, though.

Yeah? I had to crank the brightness right up to be able to see what was going on. I had the opposite reaction.

I haven't played 1 and 2, but 3 seems pretty cool. The sound effects are definitely the creepiest part IMO. The cut scene dialogue and acting can get a little hacky though.

[Topher]

Originally posted by Balthazor
Ah, just picked it up today. Can't wait to dig into it's evil goodness.

Though, what Topher mentions just above kinda ticks me off. I used to have the PS2 version of SH2, but ditched it in favor of the Xbox version. And, unfortunately, I trashed all the game saves as well.

Damn.

I have since read that those extra scenes also open up when you start a "Next Fear" replay game, so you'll get them eventually if you play more than once. And of course you will, to get all the endings, bonus weapons, and extra t-shirts. ^_^

Topher

[Topher]

Originally posted by Tancred
I haven't played 1 and 2, but 3 seems pretty cool. The sound effects are definitely the creepiest part IMO. The cut scene dialogue and acting can get a little hacky though.

The amazing music/FX combined with shaky voice acting is a SH tradition. ^_^ In the first game, the dialogue tracks were stored all over the CD instead of in sequence, so between every line there was a slight pause as the game loaded up the next bit of speech. Drove me crazy at first, but then these disjointed conversations started adding to the bizarre, dreamlike (nightmarelike?) quality of the experience.

Topher

[Leggy Starlitz]

Originally posted by Semah_G_Noj
The poem on the wall tells you where to move the hands on the clock. H name for hour hand M name for minute hand. Then you pee your pants as I recall.

THANK YOU!

[Grant]

Don't feel bad, I couldn't get that damned puzzle to work for me for the longest time. My girlfriend finally figured out the first time she saw it and mocked me for the rest of the night about it.

I didn't realize SH3 was out... damn. I just picked up Devil May Cry and it's sequel... are those long games? I kind of want to finish them before picking up something else and getting into them (I've given up beating .hack before getting new games... for some reason that one will take me a while).

Grant

[Topher]

I haven't played DMC2, but the first one is *really* short. I finished it in one evening of play.

Topher

[Balthazor]

I'm now deep in the midst of SH3, and so I thought I'd resurrect this thread for the sake of tossing out some opinions on it thus far.

To get some of the technical stuff out of the way, the graphics are just about the best I've seen on PS2. This is one beautiful game. The texture detail is simply jaw-dropping.

The camera seems somehow more twitchy and misbehaving than it did in SH2. I find myself struggling with it more than I remember doing before. While it's not game-ruining or anything, it does get to be a nuisance. Particularly when you've got three nurse monsters bearing down upon you, yet the camera keeps wanting to swing to where you can't see them. Grrr!

The sound is fantastic, better even than SH2. Konami does know how to put together a terrifying audio experience.

Ok, so now onto other things. One thing which distresses me is that, based on what I've seen and what I've read, it doesn't sound like there's a whole heck of a lot of Silent Hill in the game. I keep hearing that the game is shorter than any of the others, only 7-12 hours of play time is what I've read. Yet, it's taken me four hours just to get into the damn town. So either I'm playing rediculously slow, or there's just not a whole lot of time spent in the town. Which would be a disappointment.

Furthermore, it seems that the game is a whole lot more "on rails" than the first two. Even though the first two had a definite path that had to be followed, you were still largely free to roam around the town at your leisure. This game so far seems to be much more of a point A to point B to point C without much chance for anything inbetween.

I was happy to be able to revisit the good old Heaven's Night bar and Brookside Hospital. Seeing Brookside Hospital again is beginning to give me SH2 flashbacks, and not in a good way. :)

Finally, this has got to be, without a doubt, the most insanely whacked-out of the series. There's some wildly disturbing shit in this game. It's like SH1 and SH2 combined, along with a heavy dose of some seriously bad acid.

One last comment: the mannequin storage room. Egad! There's a heart-stopper!

[Andy K]

Yeah, I'm playing it, too. I gotta say, it's some fucked up shit.

But it's goooood. So very goooood.

-Andy

BTW- I set up the controller type for 2D cause I was having problems with the 3D- It's working great for me. But I agree with the observation on the camerawork...

[Grant]

Ok, ignore everything I said about wanting to wait until I'd beaten DMC 2... I made the mistake of "browsing" around a Best Buy and reminding myself that I get paid this week... so now I have SH3.

But... when I stuck it in and started to play the game just to see some of the intro story scenes... there weren't any! Well, there was the montage of scenes from the game before it gets to the main menu, but when I hit NEW GAME I was expecting a cutscene of some sort (like in SH2... never played SH1). Nothing, nada, just a scene of the main character walking down the street, wondering where she was, and looking at the knife in her hand.

Did I miss something? Did I maybe press a button and skip through the scene that I'd wanted to see?

Grant

[Garry G]

Just started playing SH2 and I'm a wee bit scared. The monsters are icky and I'm all on my own.

[sys64738]

Huh, radio. What's goin' on with that radio?

[Garry G]

Noisy scary radio. Pyramid thing having sex with mannequins. Awfy scared. Found juice. Scared again.

[Semah]

Originally posted by Garry G
Noisy scary radio. Pyramid thing having sex with mannequins. Awfy scared. Found juice. Scared again.

That game made me leave my house. I was playing it by myself and I yelled out at one point, turned off the game, and then realized that I needed to go somewhere public and well-lit.

This is why I'm waiting to get part 3.

That reminds me: Did anyone else get the special edition of S2 with the second mini-game with the girl? I was stuck on one of the puzzles.

[Brass Monkey]

good christ, i'm playing SH2 rigfht now, and i'm in the hospital. freaky-deaky. combat is brutal though, knocking hideous monsters over and beating them with a pipe while they are down.

[Garry G]

I saved it just before heading to the fire escape to get out of the appartment building. I might be too scared to leave the building when I play tonight though. Icky icky beasties.

[Brass Monkey]

good grief. I'm stuck. lost in the prison. No map. losta CREEPY SHIT. god help me.

[Garry G]

Horrible nurses have killed me in the hospital. I want my mum!

[Balthazor]

Originally posted by Semah_G_Noj

That reminds me: Did anyone else get the special edition of S2 with the second mini-game with the girl? I was stuck on one of the puzzles.

Yeah, I've got that. Is it the puzzle with the metal plates that need to go on the girl's grave? If so, then I can't really help you out. You have to just keep dicking with them until they line up. Trial and error.

If it's something else, maybe I can help.

[Balthazor]

Originally posted by Garry G
Horrible nurses have killed me in the hospital. I want my mum!

In SH3, some of the nurses...have guns. Now isn't that a comforting thought?

[Semah]

Originally posted by Balthazor
Yeah, I've got that. Is it the puzzle with the metal plates that need to go on the girl's grave? If so, then I can't really help you out. You have to just keep dicking with them until they line up. Trial and error.

If it's something else, maybe I can help.

That's the one.

Phooey.

That's my only complaint with these games. There's always, always at least two puzzles that take me 4 days to figure out.

Well, that and they make me piss my pants occasionally :D

[Garry G]

Everythings the same but different. Nurses coming to get me. Where's everybody gone? Must run.

[Semah]

Originally posted by Garry G
Everythings the same but different. Nurses coming to get me. Where's everybody gone? Must run.

Oh, you are not in for a fun time now.

[Garry G]

I can't find the wrench and the memo at the Mexican restaraunt. Any advice.

Still scared but a wee bit pissed off.

[Garry G]

Sorted it. Not in the place itself. Bastards.

[Balthazor]

Well, I'm drawing close to the end of the game, and while it's certainly a great game thus far, I am disappointed at the overall lack of Silent Hill contained within it. As far as I'm seeing, you spend a grand total of maybe ten minutes stalking the streets of the town.

I was actually hoping that this iteration would have a more expansive town environment, not a miniscule one. And environment more like Shenmue, only with fog and sickly zombie-things. Instead, you get a couple minutes on one single city block.

That's a drag.

[TrapperQ]

I just finished SH3 and I think I have discovered the true horror of the game. It's that guy singing the badly translated lyrics over the end title music. By 'eck, that's bad.

I also got a very odd score, everything was way down except the one about shooting which has maximum stars, possibly becaue I used EVERY SINGLE bullet in the game and resorted to the katana for the last fight.

I'm not sure I want to play it through a second time, It wasn't as good (err effective) a horror story as SH2. In SH2 it took me about 30 minutes to get to the town, based on the background noises alone.

EDIT: spelling.

[Andy K]

Originally posted by Balthazor
I was actually hoping that this iteration would have a more expansive town environment, not a miniscule one. And environment more like Shenmue, only with fog and sickly zombie-things. Instead, you get a couple minutes on one single city block.


Interesting. For me, it's all about the "real world/Hell world" distinction that gives SH its distinctive flavor. I really didn't care as much for running all over the f'ing town in the SH series, finding that "a crater" exists where a road used to be, etc. But I did enjoy, just a little, moving off the path I was supposed to be on just to find instead a deadend... but with a few bullets or health or something in mini-caches. That was fun. Oh, and I did love SH1 where you would be walking around outside... and then, eventually, the Hell-world replaces the normal town as well. That was a very effective device, I thought.

So for me, it wasn't all about getting to Silent Hill. With the first moment that Heather found herself in the Hell-world mall, I knew that Silent Hill came to Her. :)

BTW, This game is scaring the fuck outta me. I've been playing it at night only. Last night, I had to get directions to a party, so I went into my building (3 stories, dark, VERY quiet save the humming of AC) at 11:30 last night.

I was fucking jumping. Caught a glimpse of myself in a side/reflection in a window, and almost shit myself.


"favorite" (read: FUCK ME UP) moments thusfar:


*spoilers*


The haunted house. The red mist time. For some reason, freaked my shit out. THe escape itself was kinda lame, but just the idea that the lame "haunted house" all of a sudden turned into a real killing machine... that freaked me out.


The hospital Hellworld, with the walls made of boiling blood-like stuff, different than any other Hellworld experience. I just Did Not Like being in that environment.


The worst, the WORST, was that motherfucking mirror scene. You know the one I mean. I didn't notice the stuff happening in the mirror at first. Then, I did notice that my pic in the reflection... "am I... is that... blood? HOLY SHIT!" Then, I saw the drain... the fucking drain. And the noise.

I died there in that room. Creepiest fucking experience in a videogame ever, hands down.

[LeumasWhite]

Thanks for the story, Andy. I am SO buying this game. Note to self: Get money.

In any case, my first time playing Silent Hill, I got up to the hell-school, specifically the locker room. Almost died of a heart-attack, then left the game alone for 2 months, before a friend discovered it lying at the back of my closet, and forced me to play it until we beat it. Worst. Gaming. Experience. EVAR. Also the best. Especially when I got up to the same bit, and built up the suspense massively. Scared the fuck out of said friend.

Ah, memories (read: nightmares).

[face]

I have a question for anyone who has beaten SH3.

Okay, last night I hopped into the office building via the construction site. I then got pimp-slapped to death by a creature I have affectionately nicknamed "Fatass" in the ballet studio. (Still trying to come up with a use for the mace. Nothing so far.)

My question is when does the plot get moving here? I haven't seen a cutscene or anything since I got to the subway. I'm just sorta wandering around. It's a good time, though. :)

-
today's face is worryface

[Andy K]

Originally posted by face
Okay, last night I hopped into the office building via the construction site. I then got pimp-slapped to death by a creature I have affectionately nicknamed "Fatass" in the ballet studio. (Still trying to come up with a use for the mace. Nothing so far.)

Yeah, the mace is close to worthless, IMO. Massive damage, and only 90 seconds to swing it!

But fear not, you're literally a hair away (probably under 10 minutes of playing time) from getting a really, really, REALLY fun melee weapon. I found it and pretty much used it for the rest of the game. I'll just leave it at that. :-)

And the fatass, it appears, is a living metaphor of a giant ball of living cancer! (yuck!) The thing you NEED to do is "hit and run" tactics. Use the pipe over the mace until you get that really cool weapon.

My question is when does the plot get moving here? I haven't seen a cutscene or anything since I got to the subway. I'm just sorta wandering around. It's a good time, though. :)

It'll be a bit for a cutscene to appear, probably another hour or so of gametime. But the puzzle/action will pick up soon. :)

[Andy K]

BTW, I finished the game last night. NO SPOILERS, but:

Afterwards, you get this "Extra Costume Mode". I looked up the codes for this, and while most of the costumes are just some stupid T-Shirt, there's a "Raiden" outfit that makes Heather look like a total tattooed creepy goth slut. I'm loving it. :)

-Andy

[The Eye]

Originally posted by Andy K
BTW, I finished the game last night. NO SPOILERS, but:

Afterwards, you get this "Extra Costume Mode". I looked up the codes for this, and while most of the costumes are just some stupid T-Shirt, there's a "Raiden" outfit that makes Heather look like a total tattooed creepy goth slut. I'm loving it. :)

-Andy


my favorite outfit is the magical girl suit.
compound that with the weapons you unlock by beating the game once, and Silent Hill loses every bit of horror/scariness it ever had.

[Andy K]

Yeah, I want to go through it once more with the special melee weapon and the other unlimited weapon that I got, then the next time go for the UFO Revenge ending. :)

[Tancred]

I'm too chickenshit for the game. I've got to Silent Hill, fought a few nurses in the hospital, then decided I'll wait for my girlfriend to come back from overseas til I play it again.

It's too spooky when you live alone. :o

[Balthazor]

Originally posted by Andy K

The worst, the WORST, was that motherfucking mirror scene. You know the one I mean. I didn't notice the stuff happening in the mirror at first. Then, I did notice that my pic in the reflection... "am I... is that... blood? HOLY SHIT!" Then, I saw the drain... the fucking drain. And the noise.

I died there in that room. Creepiest fucking experience in a videogame ever, hands down.

There can be no doubt. Absolutely creepy beyond all words.

Two other good parts were the mannequin storage room and the room in the haunted house where the body drops down from the ceiling. They both had me freaked bigtime.


Unfortunately, I'm totally screwed right now. I've got to be right up against the end of the game, yet I've got NO ammunition, NO health restoring items, and my current health is such that one hit from anything kills me.


I somehow was lucky enough to make it past the Alessa boss on the merry-go-round with only the katana and only getting hit once. It took me about a hundred tries, though.


But as much as I hate to say it, I think it's pretty much start-over time now.

[face]

Last night, I got to the apartment. Holy hell, I officially take back any worries I had about the plot. :)

Now I'm in the hospital and my warrior spirit is inspired. I just got a phone call and I have a feeling the hospital is about to freak on me. I say bring it. :D

I'm starting to realize how low my expectations were for this game, because it keeps surprising me in new and cool ways. At the beginning, I thought I was stuck on easy because you could kill most of the monsters with the knife. Now that I'm farther along, I'm running into some of the same monsters using different tactics, and the new monsters have animations that make them very effective attackers.

In Silent Hill 2, close combat was generally frustrating because 60% of the enemies were those zombies that could spit that vomit cloud that could zap you anywhere near melee range. That's not challenging, it's plain wrong. Combat also was generally the same bag throughout the game; you would use the same tactics on enemies at the end as you would when you first encountered them. Nurses weren't difficult because they were so slow. They were only dangerous in numbers.

SH3 is different because the combat is clearly gradually getting more difficult. The nurses' "pipe-thwack" animation is much more dangerous, not to mention the gun-toting ones. It points to a lot of time spent in the craft of game design, and that warms my little heart. :) I'm also satified with the varety in monster design, which was lacking in SH2.

What am I doing at work? I need to be home playing this game! :)

[The Eye]

Originally posted by Balthazor
Unfortunately, I'm totally screwed right now. I've got to be right up against the end of the game, yet I've got NO ammunition, NO health restoring items, and my current health is such that one hit from anything kills me.



SPOILERY




did you find the hospital room with 2 or 3 of those needle-like healing items?
also, if you get the final boss' pattern correct, then you can defeat it getting hit only a minimal number of times.

[Andy K]

Oh, first time around I played on Easy-Easy. Second time around, I'm on Hard-Hard. Here's a couple things I noticed:

1) This style of play works great with SH, because you end up getting a free "good item" the next game around. You can also multiply the number of bullet pickups, etc (x2, x3, etc).

2) I don't know if it's Puzzles or Combat, but I noticed that there are some areas that you'll enter, like a tunnel, and as you progress the walls start turning to a kind of eerie blood-red. When this happens, you start taking continual damage. That F***ed me up when that happened, because it didn't happen that way in the first game I played, so I was kinda shocked.

3) Unlimited submachine gun = Good. But hard to get used to the aiming...

-Andy

[Andy K]

Oh, a question to SH2 (not 3) players: I sold my copy before I got to the UFO ending.

Does someone remember what happened on that UFO ending? All the "spoiler pages" I look at for that ending simply say, "... then you will see the UFO ending." without giving any details. :(

So spill it, what happens?

-Andy

[Tamoline]

OK, by this point you have used the gem several times, and got sightings of UFOs. When you use it the last time in the hotel room, you see a UFO outside. You go to investigate and see the guy from SH1, who asks you if you've seen his daughter. He then zaps you with a ray gun, and he and a grey drag your body back to the ship.

This is as I remember. It has been a time.

[Jesse]

Originally posted by face

At the beginning, I thought I was stuck on easy because you could kill most of the monsters with the knife. Now that I'm farther along, I'm running into some of the same monsters using different tactics, and the new monsters have animations that make them very effective attackers.

Ironically, I'm finding Silent Hill 3 disappointing for these exact same reasons. For me, Silent HIll has always been about atmosphere, freaky head-trips and story. I LIKED the fact that the action elements were kind of kept to a minimum or easy in the previous games. If I wanted intelligent enemies that could kick my ass I'd play Resident Evil (and I've played almost all of them).

Of course, to give you an indication of how bad I am about this, I can't kill a single damn thing with the knife, even at the beginning. Especially the dogs. I can't hit the dogs with any melee weapons at all. I ALWAYS have to shoot them. Now, I'm up to the Nurses and it just isn't the same as the kind of distrubed sort of beat down you'd give them with the lead pipe in Sillent Hill 2.

Jesse

[Balthazor]

Originally posted by dyjoots

did you find the hospital room with 2 or 3 of those needle-like healing items?
also, if you get the final boss' pattern correct, then you can defeat it getting hit only a minimal number of times.

Yep, but they've been long since used.

Originally posted by dyjoots

also, if you get the final boss' pattern correct, then you can defeat it getting hit only a minimal number of times.

I don't think I made clear the seriousness of the situation. If anything so much as taps me once, I'm spent. It's a sorry scene.

[Andy K]

Last night I cleared the game on Hard-Hard mode.

the boss (no spoilers here) drained me of the following:

2 Ampoules
4 Medkits
8 Health Drinks
(the entirety of my Health Collection)

Before I beat it. It still took nearly 10 minutes of running around before I finally brought it down.

And I had the machine gun with unlimited bullets.

My advice: Before going on hard-hard mode, go through once, and do that secret move where you kill the boss with only the katana/maul/pipe (melee weapons only), because you get the unlimited submachine gun next time. ONLY THEN go for Hard Combat mode.

[Midknight]

any one who's played sh2 and is playing sh3 spill the story for them. i played the first one (redfox's ps1 and his game) and haven't the money to get a ps2 and the last 2 games. but i wanna know what the stories are and if they are related to any of the characters from sh1.

tell me! tell me! tell me! tell me!

pllleeeeeeease?

[DSPaul]

The story of SH2 is mostly unrelated to either of the other games. It takes place in the same town, and you get the monsters and the dark world and that stuff, but the plot is totally different.

SH3, however, is a direct sequel to the first game. I won't spell out exactly how it's related, but anyone who's played the first game should be able to guess fairly early on....

[The Eye]

Originally posted by Andy K
Last night I cleared the game on Hard-Hard mode.

the boss (no spoilers here) drained me of the following:

2 Ampoules
4 Medkits
8 Health Drinks
(the entirety of my Health Collection)

Before I beat it. It still took nearly 10 minutes of running around before I finally brought it down.

And I had the machine gun with unlimited bullets.

My advice: Before going on hard-hard mode, go through once, and do that secret move where you kill the boss with only the katana/maul/pipe (melee weapons only), because you get the unlimited submachine gun next time. ONLY THEN go for Hard Combat mode.

holy crap.
i didn't have it nearly as difficult...
hmm.

[Andy K]

Originally posted by Midknight

pllleeeeeeease?

PM coming your way!

[sys64738]

Finished SH3 for the second time on Hard/Hard last night.

Scored enough kills for the Sexy Beam.

Sweet.

re: beating the boss on Normal difficulty

I was melee'ing my way through the game. Melee works great on bossman too, really. Wear the vest, it helps a lot vs his swipes. Stand in front of him and shoot him a couple times with the pistol, get him to lean down. Then, you can do the forward lunge move with the stabby, which does good damage. I actually had much less difficulty beating him in melee than with firearms.

On Hard mode, I resorted to strafing back and forth from the back of the room with the unlimited subgun.

I also went to the 2D mode, but when I found that I couldn't strafe while using it I got used to the 3D mode. It didn't take long to acclimatize.

re: the pipe

It's really good vs the fatties, cuz it's slightly faster than their attacks and will usually interrupt them. You'll get hit once or twice, maybe, but that's it. I preferred the pipe over the stabby, actually, mostly for the improved hit stun. The stabby is better for close in work vs lots of nurses, etc, though.